Origins of Christian Zionism, How It Corrupted American Christianity and Why It’s Finally Collapsing

JD Hall, thank you for joining us. I think you're  one of the clearest writers on the internet. So,   it's an honor to have you here. Um, I've  been trying to figure out for several years,   you write on theology on Substack and other  places. And very clearly, I just want to say   clarity being the goal of expository writing,  you you achieve that, right? Few do. I've been   trying for the last several years to figure out  what Christian Zionism is. Not because I have an   inherent interest, but because it's affected the  shape of the world and a lot of people have died   because of it and it has real world consequences  that we can we're living through right now. What   is Christian Zionism? Where does it come from?  Is it Christian? What's your assessment? Well,   if you listen to people online, every Christian  is a Zionist just naturally, right? Yes.   So the proponents of it will tell you that  it is the de facto position on Israel and   it always has been for Christians uh to believe  in the establishment and support and protection   of a Jewish ethnostate. Yes. Uh in Palestine um  Christian Zionism what said doesn't it say in the   Bible that those who bless Israel will be blessed  and those who don't will be cursed? Yeah. And   I'm I'm going to go out on a limb and say that  you've had probably about a thousand different   people tell you that that's something that we hear  every single day as Christians. I couldn't find   it. I got my concordance out. I couldn't find it.  Well, I remember the interview with Huckabe and   he couldn't find it either, which is weird when  you cite it all the time. Or actually, that was  

Ted Cruz that couldn't remember where it was. I  don't I'm not sure that Ted even knew like if it   was in the front of the Bible or in in the back of  the Bible. I have no idea. Um but yeah, so Genesis   12:3 says, "I will bless those that bless thee  and curse those that curse thee." And from that,   and I'm simplifying it, but from that comes this  more philosophical notion than theological, that   we as Christians have a dutybound obligation to  protect and to defend and also to help establish   a nation for the Jewish people in Palestine. And  it hasn't always been Palestine, you know. So when   um political Zionism first developed, they had  posited Morocco and Galveastston, Texas, Ohio,   Siberia, different places. Galveistston, Texas.  Yeah. There was a substantial number of Jews   there. And they thought this could be sort of the  safe space for, you know, Judaism worldwide, which   made sense because, you know, the United States  has always been a pretty hospitable place for   Jews. But anyways, um, so far as it it concerns  Christian Zionism, that is tied to a theology   called dispensationalism. Dispensationalism is  a theology invented by John Nelson Derby. What   does the word mean dispensationalism? Well, the  term refers to different dispensations of time  

by which God operates differently and deals  or interacts with man differently depending   upon what dispensation of time it's in. Huh. So,  dispensationalism is juxtaposed against covenant   theology. And those are your two basic viewpoints  uh of Christians throughout the history of   Christianity. And for the most part, there's only  those two perspectives. Um, and you can get lost   into the weeds really easily. Yes. So, John Nelson  Derby, he belonged to a bizarre Irish sect. It   was sectarian. Uh, they had basically uh schismed  their way outside of the established church. They   had several different theological hang-ups. One is  that they rejected all forms of church authority.   They were what I would call sectarian minimalists.  So they reject the organized church. They rejected   uh the established church. And part of the reason  is because their beliefs were so eccentric and   weird. They would have been excommunicated  had they remained in the established church.   So um after moving from Ireland to Plymouth,  England, the the notion of dispensationalism   grew. And essentially the the difference between  dispensationalism and covenant theology is that   God in covenant theology is interacting with man  in accordance to the old or the new covenant.  

And so the bulk of the church from uh the first  days of the apostles through the church fathers   through the protestant reformation whether  we're talking Catholics or Eastern Orthodox or   Protestant reformers. All of them are what you'd  call covenantal in their theology. So you said   um and I'm sorry to be pedantic. I was trying to  understand this cuz I really think it matters and   you understand it better than anyone I've ever  talked to. The premise is that God's promises   change according to the time, according to  the dispensation, the era, the epoch. So,   dispensationalism can be complicated. Um,  classical dispensationalism separates the   epochs of time into seven different eras. It  can definitely be complicated. There's something   that's called leaky dispensationalism, which is  a little bit less structured, but essentially   the big difference is this. Covenant theologians  have always believed that God saves people via   covenant. And there was an old covenant. That's  what testament means, by the way, not testimony.   It's it's the old covenant. And then there is the  new covenant that has been established. and that   Jesus came and inaugurated a new covenant. Yes.  And he did that at Passover right before he was   crucified. The last supper, which was the last  Passover supper, the last authentic Passover  

supper was also the first Lord's supper. It's the  first communion or Eucharist. Yes. And Jesus says,   "This is my new covenant or this is the new  covenant in my blood that's poured out for   many." And so in the new covenant, Jesus Christ  is the means by which um God's people are saved.   Yes. Okay. Um in the old covenant, the covenant  people of God were Israel. Yes. And God being   very gracious gave Israel rights and rituals for  them to see as an explanation, a word picture of   who their Messiah would be. So that when their  Messiah came, they would say obviously that's what   this is about. The Passover is a good example.  They recognize the Messiah. They would recognize   the Messiah. In fact, it would be hard for them  not to recognize that Jesus was the Messiah.   He's crucified at Passover. Um, he is the lamb of  God who takes away the sins of the world. I mean,   all the imagery is right there for the Jewish  people to see. Yes. That this is the moment   that we've been waiting for. Jesus installs  the new covenant in his blood. And by that by   uh God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ  alone we are redeemed by faith in that and then  

we become God's chosen people. And so a covenant  theologian is going to tell someone that quotes   Genesis 12:3, I will bless those that bless thee  and curse those that curse thee. uh a Christian   a covenant theologian is going to quote to you  Galatians chapter 3 which is a book of the the   New Testament in which the apostle Paul is writing  to the church in Galatia and he tells them that if   you have faith in Jesus you are God's children  you're actually he says you are the children of   Abraham it says it twice so by faith we're adopted  into God's covenant people. And then at the very   end of Galatians chapter chapter 3, not only does  it tell us that we are um the children of Abraham,   those who believe, but also we are the heirs of  the promises. And so in fact in in Galatians 3:7,   the Apostle Paul very clearly explains that that  promise is not for the Jews. It never was for   the Jews. the picture was or rather the the the  mission of God was much bigger. And that's clear   in the Old Testament, isn't it? Right. It's it's  Old Testament. Um and God is preaching through   the rights and rituals of the Old Testament, the  gospel before Jesus came. Yes. All right. so that  

they could understand concepts like grace and  judgment and forgiveness and repentance because   it was never about the sacrifice of bulls and  goats. It's not as though that bloodshed ever   took away sin. It gave them a picture of the  bloodshed that Jesus Christ would one day give   for us so that they could believe in what we call  types and shadows. putting their faith in the the   rituals that would one day be lived out in reality  through the life and ministry of Jesus Christ. And   the the greatest, you know, the great mystery of  the gospel, Paul calls it, is that Jesus was not   just a Jewish Messiah. He was a global Messiah.  He was everyone's Messiah. And that by faith,   we become the children of Abraham. And by faith we  receive Abraham's promises. Um I was going to say   a second ago the very first part of Galatians  chapter 3 he says you know when the promise   is given to Abraham and to Abraham's seed Paul  says it doesn't say seeds plural. It says seed   singular. The promise is not given to the Jews.  The promise is a reference to Abraham's seed.   That's Jesus Christ because Jesus was of the  lineage of Abraham. So the promise is not bless  

the Jews and God will bless you. The promise is  bless Christ and God will bless you. Furthermore,   not only is that promise just for Christ, but by  the end of the chapter in Galatians 3, the Apostle   Paul says, "You are the heirs of the promise."  Meaning that promise is extended to us. And so   the irony is you have these so-called Christian  Zionists who believe that we have to bless Jews   in order for God to bless us. And they're  actually giving away their own inheritance.   That's our promise. I'm a child of Abraham. If  you're a Christian, you're a child of Abraham.   We receive the heir or rather we we receive the  promises of Abraham because we inherit them by   the virtue of of adoption in Jesus Christ. That's  what Christians have historically believed. Um and   there are other supporting texts. You know, you  got Romans chapter 9 where the Apostle Paul says   that Jews who do not believe in Jesus are not  children of Abraham. Um, you you've got Romans   chap 11 that paints the picture of uh the tree  of faith in which unbelieving Jews are branches   on this tree that have been cut off and severed  from both Abraham and God and in their place are   grafted in believing Gentiles. And so we, you  know, are brought into the family of Abraham  

and in covenant with God by virtue of faith. So  when someone like Mike Huckabe or Ted Cruz or any   other politician or preacher preaches a message  that, you know, if you want God to bless you,   you need to do X, Y, or Z for the Jews. They're  handing away or handing out Christian promises.   Those are for us. We have those in Jesus. We  are the children of Abraham. Cost of living   is already making it hard to live here and  it's not getting any better. Unfortunately,   it's likely to get worse. And a lot of Americans  fill the gap with credit cards, not just for fancy   dinners, but to cover things like groceries and  bills. That is a disaster. It's understandable,   but don't go down that road because there is a tax  in effect, a survival tax of 20% interest or more.   Why would you do that? Why would you hand money  to the big banks when you could keep it for your   family? Our friends at American Financing have a  better way. If you're looking to buy your first   home or refinance your current one, they're  helping Americans achieve the dream of home   ownership with monthly mortgage rates currently in  the fives. American Financing saves its customers   an average of 800 bucks per month. That's nearly  10 grand every year back to you. This isn't just   a loan. It's a total financial reset. So, debt  is tough, but there's a smart way to do it and a   reckless, self-destructive way to do it, credit  cards. And so, we recommend American Financing.   They're salary based, not commissionbased,  which means they actually work for you,  

not the banks. They're called America's Home  for Home Loans for a reason. Call 800685-5696. 800685-5696 or visit americanfinancing.net/ducker. it  doesn't make inherent sense the theology that   you're describing dispensationalism um and also  before I ask you about how it spread and why is   it true or product of my bad memory that there  are glimpses in the Old Testament that God plans   to redeem the entire world that it's not that  God's mission on earth is not just to protect   this one group of people but everybody right so  uh what dispensationalists will do is they will   look at verses in the Bible about the end times.  We call that esquetology. They'll look at these   esqueological texts about what God will do with  ethnic Jews, the children of Abraham physically,   and they'll say, "See, you know, the the  Jews are special to God in a way that other   ethnicities are, you know, are not." And it's  unfortunate because three different times in   the New Testament, the scripture says God is not  a respector of persons. And each and every time   it's a reference to the Jewish people, but they  have in their head, Jews are special. They look   at a verse about what God is going to do one day  in the escaton or in the end days for Jews and   walk away from that saying, therefore, we need to  support the nation state of Israel. This must be  

a part of that grand plan that God has designed  for the Jewish people. But Isaiah chapter 19,   just to give you an example, tells us that uh the  Egyptians and the Assyrians will be redeemed by   God in the end days and be brought to Zion to  Jerusalem or to to the promised land. It calls   Egypt God's special people and says of Assyria  that they are the work of his hands. These are   two nations that are adversarial to the ancient  Israelites. Well, enslave them in one case,   right? And the Assyrians, you know, are constantly  warfaring with them. These are bitter enemies. And   yet, the prophet Isaiah says that they will become  special to God. He will call them his own and draw   them to Zion. That's in the Torah. Yeah, that's  in the Torah. Um, it's in Isaiah uh chapter 19.   But that's not the only place. There are literally  dozens of different scriptures throughout the text   that tells us that every nation group in the  end is going to be drawn to God through Jesus   Christ. As a matter of fact, it's in the Abrahamic  promise in Genesis 12, verse 4 of that promise,   right after it says, "I'll bless those that bless  thee and curse those that curse thee." Um it   says every family of the earth will be blessed  through Abraham. And so the Jews will tell you  

that it's because you know Israel is such a grand  wonderful place that all the different nations of   the world are being blessed you know by by Israel.  Unfortunately the dispensationalists will tell you   that too. I say unfortunately because that's  clearly a reference of Christ. Through Jesus   Christ, God's saving love to sinners all around  the world. Every people group, every nation,   every ethnos um is going to be drawn to God in the  end. That's our hope as Christians, that God wins,   that salvation is secure ultimately for every  nation under the sun. that God will bring unto   himself one chosen nation, one holy people  for God's possession. And so, yes, we can see   places in the Bible where God has future plans  for Israel. But we can also look to those very   same prophets in those very same books and see  that God has great things in store for Persia,   for Iran. God has great things in store um you  know for Greece and and for every every nation   including by the way the ancient Philistines  who are modern-day Palestinians. God has plans   in store for everyone. That is the good news  of the gospel that Jesus shed his blood for   sinners and that by faith we can all become the  children of God and by virtue of that children  

of Abraham. When I was a kid in church there  was a song that we sang father Abraham and it   says father Abraham had many sons. Many sons had  father Abraham. I am one of them and so are you.   So let's just praise the Lord. probably raised  Episcopalian that one skipped. Yeah. Church not   not not in our in low church evangelicalism.  That song is probably sung in every, you know,   Baptist and and evangelical church. It's a song  of covenant theology. By faith, Christians become   the children of Abraham. And if a if a Jewish  person does not believe in their own Messiah,   they're not the children of Abraham. That's what  Romans chapter nine teaches that not all who are   of Abraham are really of Abraham. I mean bigger  picture it feels like the story of Christianity   is a universe. It's a universal promise to to all  people. Sure. And it's dispensationalism seems   like it reduces Christianity back to its preJesus  state state where no this is a promise just to one   group. one genetic line. Yeah, I would say at its  heart dispensationalism is a Jewish interpretive   model. Uh as a matter of fact, they will actually  take that as a point of bragging that we interpret   the scripture the way the Jews interpret the  scripture. Well, the Jews miss Jesus like he  

came in the flesh. He he was there. They saw him.  As a matter of fact, they saw him dead, buried,   and resurrected and still didn't believe. So  maybe that's not who we should be taking pointers   from in terms of understanding biblical prophecy.  What's Jesus's role in dispensationalist theology?   Well, Jesus's role in dispensational uh theology  is uh so it depends to whom. So John Nelson Darby,   the inventor of dispensationalism, referred to  the church, the Christian church as a parenthesis.   That God's main plan is Israel. But because  they've been naughty and disobedient, the church   comes in and we're a parenthesis. So instead of  being like the bride of Christ, the church is more   like a summer fling that this is where the rapture  comes in that eventually God will rapture us,   take us out, we're gone completely, and then  Israel can resume its role as the big picture.   It's a very Jewish way of looking at the scripture  where Jews and Judaism and Jewish people is always   at the center of the scripture as opposed to  Jesus being at the the center of the scripture.   So esqueologically in terms of the end times there  are different ways that Christians have looked at  

it throughout history. There's amillennialism,  and I'm not going to bother explaining these,   but postmillennialism, premillennialism,  um, historic premillennialism, that is,   they all agree though that God only has one chosen  people, and that's those who believe in Jesus,   whether they're Jewish, whether they're Gentile,  it doesn't matter. We're all the children of God   if we believe. dispensationalism is different  from all of those different ways that Christians   can view the end times because dispensationalism  is saying, well, really God's main love is the   Jewish people. And for a time in a so-called  church age, in this dispensation of time,   um, yeah, the church is here, but one day  we're going to be sucked out of here. we're   going to beam up to heaven and then Israel will  come back and form the center of the show. And   so from my perspective and the perspective of  historic Christianity, it's not only an insult   to the church to act like we're some kind of  summer fleeing for Jesus and that, you know,   it's really about Israel. I think it's also  disrespectful to Christ because he didn't come to   be like a a tribal deity of some desert war cult  in the Middle East. He came to be the Messiah and  

the savior of the world. They emphasize Jesus's  Jewish messiahship all the time. Matter of fact,   you'll hear Jews who deny that Jesus is the  son of God. I don't even mean Messianic Jews,   just Jews that, you know, believe the typical  teaching in the Talmud about Jesus being punished   in hell, all of that stuff. But they will, when  speaking to Christians, point out, well, you know,   that your Messiah is Jewish. Jesus obviously  was a physical descendant of Abraham. There's   no argument there. But the term that Jesus used  for himself more than 70 times was son of man.   Jesus did not emphasize his own Jewishness.  Jesus came as a savior of mankind and so he   called himself son of man which was a term from  the prophet Isaiah. And so it not only reduces   the big picture of Christianity to um something  that is much much smaller. It reduces Jesus from   a global Messiah to well, he's a Jewish Messiah  that they loan us for a while. You know what's   really rare these days? A company that makes  things in America. Not just designed in America,   conceived in America, assembled in America, but  actually made in America, start to finish, in a   factory with American workers. Brooklyn Bedding is  that company. Every mattress from Brooklyn Bedding   is built in their Arizona factory. No middlemen,  no cut corners to boost the margins. The founder  

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dispensationalists and covenant theologians are  fighting about who killed Jesus. And of course,   it's there's an obvious answer, right? Like  the Jews killed Jesus. We know that because at   least eight times in scripture, I mean that the  scripture explicitly says that the first sermon   ever preached was the apostle Peter that started  by saying men of Israel and a few lines later he   says this Jesus Christ whom ye crucified. So the  Pharisees plotted to kill Jesus. If you remember   in John chapter 4, Jesus raises Lazarus from  the dead. They see it. They recognize that he's   the Messiah. The Sanhedrin, which is the ruling  council, comes together and they immediately plot   to kill Jesus. Like they knew they and Lazarus  later. Well, it it was Yeah, it was an ancient   cover up operation. Basically, they're going to  kill the guy again, right? So, and Jesus looks   to the Pharisees and he says, "You're plotting  to kill me. This is what you're trying to do."   So the question would be why does the Bible seem  to blame Jews for the death of Jesus? Obviously   they're involved, but it was technically the  Romans that, you know, nailed him to the cross.   It was the Romans who who killed him. And the  answer is, and well, Jesus himself, by the way,   I should say while he's on the cross says,  "Forgive them for they know not what they do."  

And he's speaking of the Romans, not the Jews.  He's talking about those who were actually doing   that the crucifixion. If you think about what  transpired after before the the crucifixion   was done, the centurion recognizes that Jesus  is the son of God. Um Pilate very clearly was   remorseful by the time he was done handing Jesus  over to be crucified. But within a few decades,   you had mass conversions of the Roman people and  all throughout the Roman Empire to Christianity.   And by the 3 century, you had the full  Christianization of Rome. That doesn't mean that   every Roman on earth was therefore a Christian by  the virtue of being born in a Christian empire.   We all have to have faith, personal faith in Jesus  Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. That's   how we're justified before God. But you have  the Roman people recognizing who Jesus is very   quickly. The Jews who saw Jesus dead, buried, and  resurrected, many of them followed after him, but   many of them persisted to persecute him. And then  within a very short time, they're stoning Stephen   to death. Stephen, as he's being crucified,  points out to the Jews, you've always killed  

God's prophets and you've killed Christ. And so  the reason why I think the the scripture isn't   throwing the Romans under the bus, so to speak,  even though they obviously had a hand in Jesus's   crucifixion, is because they saw ultimately who it  was that they crucified and then they repented and   they believed. And the Jewish people, those who  did not convert and follow Christ, ended up having   to make a new religion in 70 AD when the Romans  destroyed the temple because all of those rights   and rituals that we discussed, you know, that God  had given the Jewish people for them to see and   understand who Jesus was, the festival of booths,  Passover, um all of those various rituals and   the different kinds of sacrifices. All required a  temple. Yes. And it required an altar. It required   blood. It required a priesthood to make that  sacrifice. Those no longer existed after 70 AD.   And so over the course of hundreds of years,  you know, the the sect of the Pharisees that   grew into modern Judaism had to essentially  invent a Judaism that is not what you see in   the pages of the Old Testament. They renamed some  feasts, right? Like they still call it Passover,  

but it's not. It doesn't resemble the Passover of  the Old Testament. It's a completely new disparit   religion. And that's why you have uh a a desire  among Christians throughout the last 2,000 years   praying for the salvation of the Jewish people.  To be very clear, the Christian or covenantal   theologian uh message is not that Jews are totally  cut off from God and that they cannot be saved and   that God hates them or anything like that, but  it's that congratulations, you're ethnically   Jewish. That's great. God doesn't care. Like every  other group of people on the face of the planet,   you need to repent of your sins and believe the  gospel. That's the Christian message. John Nelson   Derby comes along and the message towards the  Jewish people begins to change and begins to   evolve and suddenly it's instead of you need  to repent of your sins and believe the gospel,   it's you're you're special. You're special to God.  God's going to bless you regardless of whether   or not you have faith in Jesus just because  you're Jewish. And you know that's partiality.   The scripture act the scripture actually forbids  that type of partiality. Um it's unfortunate that   Christians believe that's historic Christianity  because it isn't. Christians ought to be safe in   the Holy Land of all places, but they are not.  Keep in mind, these are the descendants of the   first converts, the first people who followed  Jesus. People whose families have worshiped in  

the land Jesus walked for centuries, for thousands  of years. And these same people are now facing   enormous pressure to leave, fleeing their homes  amid war and anti-Christian terrorism. Untold   numbers of innocents are lost and without hope,  fellow Christians. But how do you support them?   There are groups out there who claim to support  them whose real agenda is to move them out of   their actual homeland. We think that's wrong. We  think that's evil, in fact. And so, we've looked   far and wide to find a group that is actually  supporting Christians in the Middle East. And   we found one. It's called the Vulnerable People  Project, VPP. It's one of the very few groups   consistently helping vulnerable Christians  throughout the Holy Land. They deliver food   and water to Christian communities trapped in  Gaza, for example. They help rescue civilians.   They provide emergency aid to families who have  nowhere else to turn. Today, they are helping   Christian churches and families safely remain in  the communities where their ancestors worshiped   Jesus. There should be a lot of groups doing this,  and trust us, we have looked for over a year now,   and there aren't. But the Vulnerable People  Project is doing exactly that. And their work   makes an amazing difference in people's lives. A  gift of just $33 helps provide a day of protection   and support for the vulnerable Christians in the  West Bank. Who's looking out for them? Nobody.   Well, they are. A monthly gift of $83 helps  sustain that protection throughout the month. So,   visit save westbankchristians.com and stand with  Christians in the land where Christianity began.  

That's save westbankchristians.com. We are proud  to partner with them. Thank you. What was Darby's   motive? Was it sincere? I do think that Darby was  sincere. I've studied Darby a lot. I think he was   sincerely wrong. Yes. But I believe that he was  sincere. Who wasn't sincere? Were the advocates of   dispensationalism that saw its political value in  the century that followed. because Darby remained   ostracized for a hundred years um or about 90  or so. So you you've got Charles Spurgeon for   example at the London Metropolitan Tabernacle in  London couldn't stand Derby and he called you know   called the theology new um called it novel and the  typical theological belief and it's a good one is   that that which is new is not true that which  is true is not new. So if it's new and novel,   like God isn't coming up with new theology, right?  There aren't if someone invents a new doctrine,   it's automatically wrong. Yes. Because God's  already established his church. It's like Jesus   and the disciples would have told us about this.  Yes. So it was rejected by almost everyone because   it was so novel and so new. Um, then we have  Scofield that hits the scene in 1907 and he's  

a bit of a scoundrel. Like I don't want to bash a  dead person, but he was not what you would call um   a shining example of what a Christian should be.  You know, he abandoned his family, for example.   He's basically uh we know that he abandoned his  family. Yeah. His wife and kids. Gee. Yeah. So,   um, he shows up in New York. From New York, he  goes to the UK. He winds up at Oxford, which is   the hotbed of political Zionism. They print and  publish a Bible. It, we call it Scofield's Bible.   It's not Scofield's Bible. It never was Scofield's  Bible. He never owned the Bible. Uh, it's Oxford's   Bible. He was the theologian allegedly uh whose  notes in the margins of the Bible um propagated   the theology of John Nelson Darby. And that took  off like, you know, wildfire in the United States.   And it's because in low church evangelicalism, uh  most clergy at the time and even to this day are   not classically trained in seminary. Um, back  then, you know, especially before the age of   the internet and with the cost of publishing, the  typical pastor in a Baptist or congregationalist   congregation would own a Bible and that would be  about it. They didn't go home to prepare their  

sermon with a collection of uh commentaries  or uh a Bible concordance or a lexicon.   All they had was a Bible, but if they could  get their hands on the Scofields edition,   they would have all of the study notes that they  could read and learn and educate themsel. And   you know, they were smart enough to know that  the margins is not the same as inspired writ.   that became the de facto home education for a lot  of clergy within a single generation among lowurch   evangelical Protestantism. Dispensationalism  became the majority view because it's a nice   handy resource that you read right there in  the in the pages of the Bible. And a lot a lot   of uneducated Christians during the era were  actually not smart enough or educated enough   I should say to discern the difference between  the inspired rit that was given by God the Holy   Spirit written through the hands of men inspired  by God the Holy Ghost and the marginal notes in   which this effectively schismatic cult in Ireland  and then England um has their theology on the side   of the pages. And so they would look at that,  not see the difference, and all of a sudden,   well, if you fast forward to today, people  believe that that's the view that the church  

has always held. So Darby comes up with this, as  you said, novel theology, cultish theology, non   non non-traditional Christian theology, but it's  disseminated effectively by this guy Scoffield,   the family abandoner. Scoffield's names on it.  Name's on it. Yeah. What was his motive? Do we   know? I don't think that Scofield's motive is  sinister either. Uh I don't mean to throw him   under the bus like he's a bad guy or a villain.  I do think it was weird that he didn't think to   himself, okay, so I'm a relative nobody. Why am  I Why are strangers paying to sail me across the   ocean to meet with people I don't know at Oxford?  Oh, strangers did pay his way across to do that.   There's nothing in Scofield's life that would  suggest that he would have had the funds to   pay for that himself. There's a couple things  there that don't make a lot of sense, including   the the club that he was a part of in New York,  uh, with a, you know, dues that it would not be   reasonable to presume someone of Scoffield's lack  of employment would be able to afford. So, yeah,   he goes across the ocean and he meets with high  society. It's Oxford, right? and they discussed   putting this Bible into print and it was the first  Bible of its kind in which in which the marginal  

notes are going to have um you know theological  content. So a built-in study of that kind. Yeah.   It's a it's a built-in study Bible which was  totally new. So if you couldn't go to seminary,   hey, it's okay. Just buy Scofield's Bible and  believe what's within his pages. So it sounds like   you're suggesting that he was himself knowingly  or not kind of an op. I think he was a pathy.   Yeah. I think that the Zionists in the UK, the  political scientists Zionists got wind of what the   Plymouth Brethren were teaching. That's Darby's  bunch. and they thought, well, at the same time   you've got Theodore Herzel who is trying to get  Europe to buy into the Zionist project and this   esquetology is growing over here which could be  helpful to their cause and yeah they disseminated   the Bible that Scofield's Bible I think for  clearly political reasons. So this came from   the UK. Zionism as an idea really kind of gathered  steam first in the UK in England. Why? Any idea?

I don't know why specifically Zionism uh religious  Zionism took off in England organically. I mean,   that's where the Plymouth Brethren moved to,  so that would make sense. But I would point   out that the same institution that printed  the Scoffield Bible is the same institution   um that published the Balffor Declaration within  within a year. Yeah. So, it's practically the same   people. So within a year of the Balffor Balffor  declaration, you have this, hey, coincidentally,   really great new theology that helps to support  back up the political ambition of the Zionists.   I had no idea. That's amaz That's amazing. So  then it comes United States where it really takes   root. Um, and that's about when this is pre- First  World War that this hits the US. Yeah. So it would   have been uh what was it 1907 I think Scoffield  was published and so yeah it came to the United   States very quickly and it it just grew like  wildfire because you've got Baptists Methodists   congregationalists um you have the Isuza street  revival which is just starting to kick off   um charismaticism. So anybody in that in in those  circles they're probably not going to a seminary.   They're not mainstream Protestant that would  have had the brickandmortar seminaries, you know,  

your your Presbyterians, your Episcopalians and so  forth. And so, you know, good for them. They got   to avoid most of the dispensationalism problem uh  for quite a long time. But now today, there's they   they're ate up with u dispensationalism. But it's  it's really not theological for the mainstream   uh Protestants. It's just it's soaked in through  culture through various channels, but it didn't   come through the sim their seminaries  and Bible colleges. As a matter of fact,   um Presbyterians, for example, they are the  arch covenant theologians. Um their doctrine   should be hostile to dispensationalism. But  you'll still find a lot of protest, excuse me,   Presbyterians who will tell you that Jews are  God's chosen people just because they at this   point we're receiving this through osmosis. As  Christians, yes, it's just it's everywhere. As   Christians, you're supposed to support Israel.  with uh Carrie Pine Bowler, if I'm pronouncing   her name right. Um I think that she shocked  a lot of people when at the religious liberty   uh council meeting she had said as a Catholic,  we don't support Israel or we're not Zionists.   And that shocked a lot of people as though she's  making that up. and they don't realize that the  

vast majority of Christendom has a confession  of faith for their specific church that does   not allow for the belief that the Jews are  the chosen people of God. And so, um, it's   most people these days aren't that aware of what  their own doctrine is. That's right. You know,   so there's a sort of a doctrinal downgrade, so to  speak. That's what Spurgeon would have called it.   uh a theological dumbing down where Christians  don't know what their own beliefs are supposed   to be. Interesting. So there does even if you  accept the precepts of dispensationalism as   as just described by you, it's still a jump to go  from that to unlimited military aid to the modern   secular state of Israel, right? No, no, it's  a it's a huge jump. So it's on one hand we can   acknowledge let's say I am a premillennialist  and I believe that Jesus is going to literally   come reign from Jerusalem one day. It's it's one  thing to believe that that one day a bunch of Jews   are going to get saved and become Christians. That  would be wonderful if that happens. That's great.   What does that have to do with me supporting the  state of Israel today? God may one day save the   Jews. Great. Hope he does. The promises are in  the Bible that he will. So, I believe that that  

will happen one day. But that does not imply that  I therefore have to become part of a protectorate   to protect a kingdom of Jews whose king is not  welcome. And for me, that's the offensive part as   a Christian being told that I have to support the  Israeli state. Like I support Jesus. Jesus is not   welcome in the Israeli state. Like the the right  of return, for example, gives Jews the permission   to come back no matter like their blood quantum.  They don't have to be a certain portion Jewish,   right? They have to be if you have one grandparent  out of four Jewish, you can come from anywhere in   the world to Israel. They'll let you immigrate  and become a citizen because the thought process   is Jews need a safe place in the world, right?  That's the that's the philosophy. Unless you're   a Christian, if you are a Jew who believes in  Jesus, you're not welcome back. Is that true? Oh,   that's absolutely true. Yeah. So the way that  that you can be 100% Jewish by blood. Yes. But   if you profess Jesus, you do not have the right  to return. You can be 100% Jewish by blood. Eth,   you know, in terms of your ethnicity, but  if you believe in Jesus, you cannot return   even if you're under persecution in your home  country, hypothetically, if that were to happen.   So let's say they're persecuting Jews based  on their ethnicity in some country somewhere.  

um they don't care if they're a Christian, they're  ethnically Jewish, they're going to put them to   death. Now, the right of return would not allow  them to return. The right of return specifically   uh are for uh is for Jews who either remain  Jewish or have not at the least joined another   religion. So, if you are an atheist Jew, they  don't classify that as a religion. So, you can   come back. If you are an agnostic Jew, you can  come back to Israel. If you're a Christian Jew,   you cannot. So, you can affirmatively out loud  reject the Torah and the Talmud and all religious   expression of Judaism. I don't believe in  Judaism. I think it's absurd. You can be   a non-practicing Jew with the right of return.  You can be anti-practicing Jew, like atheist,   literally atheist. Well, you can be a Satanist  as long as that is not organized Satanism. Unless you are a member with your name on the  role of an official church of Satan somewhere,   let's just say you practice the occult,   you can come in to Israel as long as you have  not joined another religion like Christianity.

Uh what do Christian Zionists say about that?  Well, first of all, a lot of them don't believe   it. You know, they don't believe that's true.  Yeah. They're like, "Well, that can't that can't   be true." Because uh you know, they they've been  told uh you know, that Jews and that Israelis love   Christians and that we have this shared religious  heritage, which of course is not true at all. Um   and that they are, you know, they're friends of  Christians. So, it's it's like it it boggles their   mind. Well, that can't be true. Well, that  is true. You know, Israel's not a friend of   Christianity. Not at all. You know, there are  laws on the books in the state of Israel that   forbid evangelism uh over the airwaves that forbid  evangelism to minors. Um, as a matter of fact,   Ron Canour, I don't know if you know that name  or not. Ron Canour is a a Christian celebrity   in Israel and he was on X one day talking about  how loving and kind Israel is to him as a Jew   who believes in Jesus. And they will phrase it  that way on purpose uh so as to not imply that   they're a Christian because if they say they're  a Christian, they might have to leave. So they'll   say Jew who believes in Jesus, they're trying to  work the system. So I look him up, Ron Canour,  

and he has a television station, a Christian  television station in Israel. And in 2020,   they took his broadcast license because they said  that he was telling Jews that they needed Jesus.   And so he had to promise that he would not give  the gospel to Jewish people, that he would not try   to spread the name and the fame of Jesus over the  radio waves so that they would give him his quote   unquote Christian station back. And there he is  bragging about how great Israel treats Christians.   they took away his his broadcast license for  sharing Christ. So there are these so-called   Christian Jews in Israel uh that again they  probably don't call themselves Christian Jews.   It's Jews who believe in Jesus. Um there are some  that are there like him whose purpose it is is to   tell Christians how great it is in Israel. listen  to listen to this person tell you about how great   Christians are treated in Israel. Um, but you  and I both know that Christians are not treated   well in Israel at all. No. No, they're not. In  fact, they're they're the subject of a lot of   hostility and and in a lot of cases violence.  And it's interesting how many Christians were   expelled from their lands and their homes in  1948 with the foundation of the formation of   the state of Israel. Well, the church there is  still having their property confiscated to this  

day for settlement. You know, with the Orthodox  church, they Israel closed their bank or froze   their their bank account because they didn't pay  their tax. It was a tax that they just suddenly   threw on them. All this time they've not had to  pay that that tax. Israel throws it on them. They   couldn't afford it because it was years worth. and  they confiscated their bank account and threatened   to take their property. The Ottomans didn't  charge churches tax. And so when the Ottomans   were in control of the promised land for 400 years  in the millet system, they didn't charge churches   tax. Israel started just a few years ago. And uh  you know, so that Christians have pressure applied   to them. I mean native believers, the ones who  whose churches have been there longer than Israel   has been a state. They're the ones that are facing  the pressure that it's very hard to get Christians   in America to care about at all. And their Muslim  rulers didn't do that during the Ottoman period.   Okay? So the answer is no. The Muslim rulers  didn't tax churches during the Ottoman period.   They were very kind to Christians. As a matter  of fact, they took care of our holy sites. They   had rebuilt Islamic authorities rebuilt the  church of the suppler three different times   over the centuries. Um they had a a law protecting  Christian pilgrims on their journey. Like nobody  

messed with the the Ottoman Turks, the Muslim  rulers of the Holy Land rebuilt the Church of the   Holy Supplr three times. Three times. Yeah. either  uh completely rebuilt it or a major renovation.   One time it caught on fire and they redid the the  roof. But if you've seen the Church of the Holy   Supplr, you can imagine what it took to redo that.  It's an enormous roof. It's enormous and decaying.   I will sadly it's an amazing place. Well, a lot of  those sites have started to decay since 1948. That   one definitely is decaying and just physically  the physical building the plant uh is kind of   falling apart. Some of the opposition to the  Zionist project in Great Britain in the 1940s   uh was on account of the Muslim authorities having  taken such good care of our Christian sites that   it was a bit of a gamble to let Jewish authorities  do that. You know, I've heard people say if it   wasn't for Israel, we wouldn't be able to go visit  our holy sites. there wouldn't even be holy sites   anymore. And it's like, who do you think has been  taking care of them this whole time? It's it's   been the Islamic authorities who've had, you know,  control in that region that because of the Islamic   view of Jesus, uh they've actually been quite kind  to the holy sites in in the region. What is the   Islamic view of Jesus? Well, uh, I don't want to  say that Muslims have a high view of Jesus. Um,  

I want the reason is is because Jesus is not  fictional. Jesus is real. Um, Jesus of Nazareth   is a real biological person to this day. He  still exists. He's in heaven. He's not here. Uh,   I would say that Muslims have a false view  of Jesus. It's not the real view of Jesus,   but they're actually quite fond of him. And so,  uh, they believe that Jesus was sent by God,   uh, that he was of God, that he said true things,  uh, that he performed real miracles, and that he's   actually coming again. That doesn't make them  Christians. It doesn't mean Muslims believe   Jesus is coming again. They do as a prophet, not  as the Messiah, but they believe in his return.   So, there's been an effort to to propagandize  American Christians on this question in churches   as well. Yeah. I don't know how official it is,  but it's when you when you listen to Christians   uh talk about Islam, they'll say things  like, "Well, we've got to maintain good   relationships with Israel because Islam and  Christianity are natural enemies." Well,   I'm not saying that we're not. And I'm not saying  that Islam and Christianity have ever had any   kind of partnership, but honestly, it's rabbitic  Judaism and Christianity that historically has  

been at odds. Um, it's the idea that Christians  and Jews have gotten along this whole time and   that we have to band together to protect oursel  against the Muslims is very recent notion.   This wasn't something that was ever posited like  before the 20th century. That part is brand new   and it comes from, you know, the Jewish talking  points that you see on the television and the   news constantly. So, it's a political construct  that's been accepted as a theological reality by   American Christians. I would say that's the  case. There's so much crossover between what   is political and what is the theological when it  comes to Israel that sometimes it's really hard   to determine what is theological propaganda  and what is political propaganda because when   it's being done to us the people doing it for them  it's all political propaganda they're not trying   to change our religion when they tell us this  stuff as Christians they just want us to have a   different political perspective They have to come  at it from the angle of theology. Yes. Right. And   so that's the sad thing about dispensationalism  is it at at the heart of it. There are people who   really believe this for sure. Darby believed it.  I think Scofield believed it. Christians today,   they believe it. They're very committed to it. But  it's being promoted and propagated by people who   don't believe it at all and who don't care one way  or the other. No. But they find it very helpful,  

you know, for their purposes. So, uh, one of those  interested parties is the is the actual government   of Israel. Yeah. What is, um, the government  of Israel doing to convince American Christians   that supporting the secular state of Israel is  their religious duty? Like, what what does that   propaganda campaign look like? So, I believe  it's $729 million um is what the Knesset set   aside to fund the uh project through the Israeli  Ministry of Foreign Affairs. $729 million through   their public diplomacy unit is what they call it.  729 million that was budgeted for the year 2026.   They have a part of that $729 million uh for  public diplomacy called project 545, which   is $145 million budget set aside to affect or  manipulate AI and search engine results primarily   for Americans. Just to give you an idea of how  much that is, at the height of the Soviet Union,   their budget was $3.5 million for what they  called their active measures. Active measures   was Soviet propaganda. $3.5 million. But that had  to cover essentially five continents because the  

Soviet Union was everywhere, right? It was a  bipolar world. Had to cover most of the world.   And that it it was through that program that they  uh you know did their common turn exercises and   infiltrating communist propaganda into education  and religion and all these different avenues where   it could affect Americans and also people from  all over the world. So $3.5 million is what the   Soviets spent at the height of it for their  active measures. The public diplomacy unit   under the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs  is a quarter that, right? It's it's about a   quarter that. But that's all spent on the United  States. They're not spending that from, you know,   on other other nations on different continents and  and different um countries that can't benefit them   um politically. Israel just has to have the United  States as an ally. It doesn't have to work hard to   gain Brazil as an ally, right? Or any anyone else.  We are the ones with the veto power at the UN and   the Security Council. Of course, all they need  is us. So, we're the ones that are the the nice   recipients of that $145 million affecting even  what our AI says and our search engine results,  

all that is affecting us, how we uh, you know,  view Israel. But on top of that, you see the   religious infiltration, which I know you've had  other guests on to talk about that recently, but   through the um the different uh paythroughs, what  is I mean, just give us a broad outline of what   the propaganda effort against American churches  from Israel looks like. Geo fencing, for example,   what is that? Yeah. So there were four different  organizations that had basically signed up   registered with Farah Foreign Agents Registration  Act. Yes. And I think it was Clock Tower X and   then also um Show Faith by Works and then a couple  more. And the geo fencing thing I know that you've   discussed. Basically, they're outline outlining uh  churches uh on a map invisibly so that when you go   there and you leave, it'll ping your phone with  different types of propaganda. Yes. All right.   Assuming that you went to church there, so maybe  you would be more susceptible to some, you know,   dispensational advertisement about why it's  your duty as a Christian to support Israel.   But there's a lot that hasn't been  discussed that that really has the   geo fencing campaign. And I think that once it  got exposed, they had maybe said at some point  

um Brad Parcell had yes taken a step back and said  maybe we won't do the geo fencing thing. That was   just a suggestion or we wanted to do that. It was  a $4 million. It was the same group, $4 million   sending a bus with basically uh an Israeli, it's  an Israeli propaganda bus with VR headsets and   um things for it was targeting young men ages 16  to 24. So, it would roll into church parking lots   and it would have a multimedia uh display for the  young men to watch the IDF in action and it would   show what happened on October 7th and then how  heroic the IDF is in church parking lots so that   they would leave not learning anything more about  Jesus, right, or God or scripture or the Torah.   It wasn't theological. It was purely political.  Well, not just, but it's being done in church   parking lots with the knowledge of the of the  pastor of the church, I would assume. So, so   when they did their fair filing, they didn't say,  "We're going to these specific churches." They did   say, "We're going to churches in these states."  But yeah, you can bet your bottom dollar that   if they have permission to roll into a megaurch  parking lot and set up shop with their bus for   young men to come out and see the videos about how  great and heroic the IDF is that it I'm sure that  

the pastor would have give them permission to do  that. I mean, Christians oppose abortion probably   for a bunch of reasons, but fundamentally because  it's the murder of innocents. The baby didn't do   anything wrong. You can't kill the innocent. And  Christians know that and they stand on that this   is the most the IDF has the most brutal military  in the world which is globally renowned for   murdering innocents right at scale right how could  any Christian pastor allow pro IDF propaganda   on his property you know I wonder how many of  those pastors understand that it is propaganda   keep in mind they're not they're not going out of  their way to consume media that is outside of the   ecosystem, the news ecosystem of that which is  controlled by pro-Israel or if not pro-Israel,   pro- neocon, pro-war programming. I mean, they're  getting pro-war ideology from places like Fox   News. I mean, if I I'm sure that if you took a  sample of a hundred megaurch pastors and asked,   "Where are you getting your source, your news  source, probably all of them are going to put   Fox News as number one." So, that's what they're  getting. You know, when you talk to these pastors   about Israeli war crimes, um, you're like,  you know, did you know that they got caught,   the IDF on camera sodomizing a prisoner so  badly his large intestine fell out, he went  

into critical condition and they almost, you know,  he almost died in the hospital. And then they just   uh let him go back to Gaza and said he couldn't  return. And that way they couldn't, you know,   charge they they couldn't have the trial of the  IDF soldiers who did that because the victim can't   come back to testify. And the pastors, Christians,  whoever you talk to about this will say,   "That doesn't that doesn't sound right. That must  be Hamas, you know, propaganda." It's like when   you talk to them about the death stats in Gaza  and you say, "Do you realize that almost eight   people out of 10 that are being killed in Gaza  at at least that are civilian non-combatants?" It's really easy to look at you and just say  that's propaganda. That's clearly from the Gaza,   you know, Ministry of Health. And when  Israel admitted those figures in February,   then that doesn't make the news and they don't  see it. And it's it's really hard to convince   someone who believes that Israel is chosen by  God and special in a way that you're not special.   It's really hard to get that person to then  evaluate what's happening in light of biblical   ethics because who am I? I'm not special. Who am  I to question God's special chosen people over  

here? And so that notion of God playing favorites,  God having a special people based on ethnicity,   that clouds their judgment from start to finish.  It almost beats down mentally the person who holds   that view. It it it dismantles their ability  to look objectively at what's happening in the   Middle East. It's almost that way. Yeah. It's  a self-loathing because you're just a gentile.   These people, these are the chosen people.  And God Yeah. God's loving. He's kind. He   let you into their religion, but you're never  going to be Jewish. They're special. And it's   so infuriating because the scripture teaches the  exact opposite message. I'm God's chosen. I'm the   child of Abraham. According to the scripture very  explicitly in Galatians 3 in 1 Peter chapter 2,   the apostle Peter says that we are God's chosen  nation and royal priesthood and people for God's   own possession. He's talking about the Christian  church which is with which is shocked full of   Gentiles. He's not talking about Jews. We're the  chosen nation. They're a desert war cult who's   murdering a lot of innocent people. It's okay  to judge them. God's not going to, you know,  

be hostile with you because you've looked at  what's happening over there and said, you know   what? It's not okay to bomb an apartment building  because there might be a terrorist in apartment   3G. And there's so many different things about the  IDF that Christians need to know, but they they   don't have a frame of reference because there's  there's not an effective news source breaking   through to evangelicals who are all pigeonholed in  like this neocon influenced news environment. And   so it's like, you know, their targeting program,  their AI targeting program that is designed to,   I think, maximize civilian damage is called the  gospel. That's what the IDF named it. There's two   of them. Well, there's there's three. There's um  Daddy's Home. You've heard of this one? No. Oh,   Daddy's Home. Okay. This is uh astoundingly  inhumane. So their AI targeting program that   um lets them know when a target comes within a  specific location essentially geo fencing but   instead of church it's their home. It will notify  essentially Skynet when to send the missile,   when to drop the bomb, and it's called Daddy's  Home because it it waits for the terrorist,  

alleged terrorist. Keep in mind, these aren't  people who've been tried or anything. There's   no trial for them. The alleged terrorist gets home  and then it pings Daddy's home. Daddy's home then   sends the missile to kill them, the family. They  would say that that is a target and the target   used some human shields and if human shields die  in the process that's on the terrorists but it's   called daddy's home because it's waiting  for them to get home. That's not something   that the American military does. We don't wait  for targets to get home before we bomb them,   but the IDF does. So it is about 90% 85 to  90% of the people dead in Gaza are civilian   non-combatants. That's not from trying to miss  civilian non-combatants, right? That's like you   targeting them. It's like doctors testifying  that more than 400 kids uh that they've seen in   theos the last remaining hospital in Gaza that's  still open. 400 kids dead with a sniper wound,   a sniper round caliber in the head. It It's not  from shrapnel. And so, yeah, they're waiting for   people to get home before they blow them up. And  anyways, that was Daddy's Home. There's another  

one that that's called the Gospel. And so, I I  think that it's uh Why do they call it the Gospel? I think because it's deadly and kills  a lot of people and that's their way to   mock Christianity that that is their good  news. So let me explain that the bloodshed   of the old covenant religion of Moses is  what symbolized the forgiveness of sins.   It allowed them to see and understand the  Messiah and what Jesus would do on the cross   and by his blood were actually forgiven. But  after the temple fell in 70 AD with no altar,   no temple, with no priesthood to make  those sacrifices with no blood being shed. Where does the blood come from in rebbitic  Judaism? And I think it comes from their   fixation on war. I think that they view it  as almost an actual real atonement that they   are accomplishing something of spiritual value  when they uh when they go to war and and kill   Gentiles. That seems controversial, I'm sure.  But their version of Passover, which is not the  

Passover that God gave Moses, it's the one the  rabbis made up. Did you know that? How is it? I   ask you to pause. How is it different from the  Passover described in the Torah? Well, because   there's no actual sacrifice. There's no actual  bloodshed. So all the different rights and rituals   of the cedar that they observe, none of that  is in the Old Testament. In the Old Testament,   there was unleavened bread and there was wine and  bitter herbs and then the sacrifice itself. So   where an animal would be killed. Yes. Yes. Uh for  the purposes of atonement in the Passover, their   Passover version between the third and the fourth  cup, they drink to the damnation of the nations   and in particular to Rome who they associate  with Christianity. Pre presently presently so   whenever Mike Huckabe says happy Passover it's a  very common thing for dispensationalists to wish   happy Passover for you know their Jewish friends  they don't realize what they're saying they're not   observing the ritual that God gave Moses they're  observing the ritual that the rabbis made up in   the centuries following Jesus us the um third  and fourth cup. They take a drink and they pray   a prayer specifically for the destruction of the  nations. The [ __ ] the [ __ ] and in particular  

Rome and in Jewish and rabbitical writings they  associate Rome with Christianity because Rome   became Christianized and that's the association  that you see together in rabbitic literature.   Um, one of the the prayers that Jews pray  three times a day prays for the destruction   of their enemies. This isn't rebbitic Judaism  is not Christianity minus Jesus. That's what   Christians need to understand. It is a completely  different faith from what you see in the pages of   your Old Testament. Because that faith required  the presence of a temple where God lived. Yes,   absolutely. It's in the architecture of the  religion. God designed it so that it could   not endure without the temple. That's why God is  always promising the Jewish people in the in the   uh pages of the Old Testament that if they  misbehave, he will have the land vomitth them   out. He will bring them into exile. He will wipe  the land free of them. And he created a religion   that would be temporary. It all revolves around  the temple. And they weren't free to change that   religion either, you know. And I'll give you an  example. There's a story in the Old Testament of  

two guys that were left behind to essentially  uh guard the altar as Moses and the elders go   up on the mountain. Their names were Naab and  Abaiu. They took their own light and decided to   light the altar with their own fire. The King  James calls it strange fire because it wasn't   native to the altar. It was their own light.  They used their own Zippo, in other words.   And God destroyed them. He killed them. Those two  guys, the ground swallowed them up and ate them.   Destroyed them in fire because the faith of the  Old Testament was given the cultic religion to   Israel very specifically. It had to be observed  a very specific way um through the specific means   that God gave. They weren't supposed to deviate  at all. It's like the guy that reached out to   grab the Holy of Holies before it hit the ground  and God killed Well, God didn't tell him to touch   it. He told him not to touch it. Follow God's  rules is the point. It's a very precise religion   because everything is designed to point to  Jesus in a very specific in a very specific way.   And so the Passover religion that they're or  rather the Passover right that they're observing   and in fact most of rabbitic Judaism is way more  deviated from the Old Testament than just what   Zippo was used to light the altar. It's a complete  manufacturer of new rights and rituals that aren't  

in the text at all. It's not uh it's not the same  religion. So when people say Jesus was a Jew,   um it's like, well, yes, in a sense he was. He  was a physical descendant of David and of Abraham,   but if you're implying that Jesus was a  rabbitic Jew, no, he wasn't. That was a   completely different religion. And most Christians  don't don't grasp that. They think that, you know,   Jesus was a Jew like Ben Shapiro. Jesus would  not have recognized Ben Shapiro's religion.   The Apostle Paul would not have recognized it.  They would have taken a look at it and said,   "What is this?" Because it didn't exist. It didn't  exist. They call some things the same words,   but it's a fundamentally different religion. So  I most Americans are not aware of that. You would   think that ordained ministers would be aware of  that. Mike Huckabe is an ordained minister at a   church. Yeah. For years in Arkansas. Well, I mean,  you would think that Mike Huckabe would know as he   quotes Genesis 12:3 that Galatians 3 specifically  says that's not for Jews. So, then you're left   with one of one of two options. The first one  is Mike Huckabe, a Baptist minister, knows his   Bible. The Bible says in Galatians 3, Paul says,  "I'm not talking about Jews. It's not about Jews."   That verse is about Jesus. And the promises are  for Christians. They're the heirs of the promise.  

That's option A. He knows that, but he's lying.  The other option is he genuinely doesn't know   that. He totally ignorant. He's never ever read  Galatians in his life. I don't think that's   really plausible. I would suspect he has read it.  I don't know what he does with it other than at a   certain point, we have to start asking ourselves  if there's active concealment. If you know what   the scripture says that these are promises for  Christians, but you are applying it to Jews in   direct contradiction to what the Apostle Paul said  in terms of how that should be interpreted, at   what point do we start looking at them as the bad  guys? Well, I definitely look at them as the bad   guys. I'll say that. As to motive though, it's a  little muddier, I think. I mean, I look at someone   like Huckabe and it feels to me unknowable, of  course, but it feels like he really believes what   he says, but it's so obviously in contradiction  of what he says his faith is that that there   seems to be like a delusion or something going  on. Hakabe is a weird one because yeah, he's   um a Baptist. Most Baptists are dispensationalist,  but with with Huckabe, you you see things that I   can only characterize as deceit. For example, um  Huckabe saying that the uh with Jonathan Pard, he  

acted in your interview as though he was vaguely  familiar with Pard. Yeah, I had him. He came by.   He stopped. He stopped by the embassy and I let  him. He just wanted to say thank you as though I   could just do that, right? Just stop and talk to  the ambassador. But I was watching that interview   and I had just done an article at Insight to  Insight, my Substack, uh that laid out how Huckabe   had been working for years to get him released  from prison before he was released. So, I'm   watching that and I'm going, did he forget that he  had been working to advocating for his release for   years? Like 20 years. Yeah, it was a long time.  So, you know, has he been that much of a hardcore   dispensationalist this the whole time that as he  was governor of Arkansas or even before he sees   a spy who stole our nuclear secrets to give them  uh to Israel who would then give them to Russia.

Did he even back then love the Jews so much he  was trying to get a spy sprung from an American   prison? Because that's that's a little bit uh so  that's so hardcore dispensationalist. I don't I   don't really think that's a spiritual thing.  In other words, I think that's a political   corruption. I don't think that's a spiritual  corruption. I think that the political corruption   is using spirituality and Christianity as  a shield to do evil and wicked things. And   I think that that's a lot of what you see in the  dispensational marketplace of ideas, so to speak.   You're seeing a lot of good, honest, God-fearing  Christians that we go to church with and we may   work with, good folks, our neighbors, who have  this mindset that, well, I have to support Israel   because the Bible tells me to. But the people  at the top that are spreading that message,   the Mike Huckabes of the world, they do know  better than that. They know better. and they're,   you know, they're defending things that cannot  be defended and they're doing so in the in the   name of Christ. Is that I I should say for people  who haven't followed your career that you've been   writing about kind of intraran disputes for a very  long time and you're one of the American experts   on this topic. So like you know what's going on  in Protestant Christianity in the US I think. Is  

that changing? is what changing this reflexive  commitment to a non-Christian theology that has   resulted in very weird political positions like  absolutely it is Christians supporting genocide   how could that happen this is how you so I would  say at at insight to insight I have the average   age of my audience is probably over 50 it's a  pretty old audience and it is every single day   that I have people say I never knew that Genesis  12, the Abrahamic promise is specifically reserved   for Christians. Or I never knew that Romans 11  says that Jews without faith in Jesus are cut off   from God and Abraham and they're coming to these  conclusions for the first time. And a lot of that   is because of the internet. The internet's been  around, I mean, what, a long time at this point.   But these discussions on theological pymics that  has not been readily available online. Pimics is   a field of theological study like apologetics but  it deals with those who claim to be Christians but   are not as opposed to apologetics which deals  with other religions. Right? Pimics is more   internal. For example, Mike Lee says uh a couple  weeks ago that Mormons are Christians. It would  

be pmics. It would be the field of theological  study where you'd come along and say, "Well,   let's evaluate the claims of Joseph Smith and  compare that to the Bible and see whether or not   that's Christian." So that maybe be be more of a  a polymical um you know thing to do as opposed to   apologetic. That's new. And so there's a lot more  Christians I think at least this is my my finger   on the pulse of evangelical Christianity online.  a lot more Christians desiring to be discerning   where they're actually looking what at what  people say in the name of God and comparing   that to the word of God to determine whether or  not what they're being told is accurate. And the   first thing that they're discovering is, you know  what, the Bible actually doesn't say I have to,   you know, defend Israel no matter what  it is that they do. So it it sounds   like there's a kind of second reformation  going on within Protestant Christianity.

Yeah. I I the reason I hesitate at reformation  is I would like I would like it to see a little   bit more uh robustly theological. So it's still  on Israel. It's still political at this point.   I think right now evangelicals are are kind of  angry that they've been lied to about what Israel   is. And one of the reasons why I think they're  freaking out on their side when they look over   and they say, "Look at all of this anti-semitism."  They're seeing people that are mad at Israel. For   the vast majority of people, for Christians  uh who have finally figured out that Israel   is not the chosen people of God, irrespective  of denying Christ, it's that for the first time   in their life, they figured out that they've  been lied to about something and they're kind   of mad right now. Yeah. I think most people will  calm down if you give them a little bit of time.   So societ society um there are a lot of people  whose eyes have been open to hey you know what   they taught me in Sunday school for 20 years 30  years 50 years is nonsense and they they get a   little bit feisty you know they're upset well they  should be upset well that's the natural result of   what happens when we're lied to questions temporal  questions you know they're of limited significance   theological questions which bear on eternity are  inherently meaningful. Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah.  

Is there any uh popular Protestant American  Christian leader who is rejecting explicitly   rejecting dispensationalism and all that its  political implications. So what's happening   in evangelicalism is a complete fracturing of  the movement as a whole. So that the big name   leaders like your John MacArthur's and your RC  Sprouls, those guys are dead basically is what's   happening. So there's a balkcanization that's  basically happening in American Protestantism   and evangelicalism. Um you have a lot of  people flocking to Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman   Catholicism. Um, which you know, as a Protestant,  I never thought that I'd live to see that, but   evangelicals are responding to their I didn't know  what it was. Eastern Orthodoxy. I had no idea what   that was. Catholicism without the Pope, you know,  that's that's what most people think. They wear   black instead of white. Um, yeah, it's the Eastern  the Eastern Church. And so they're they are   Catholic light, excuse me, Catholic like if you're  a Protestant, you're looking through Protestant   eyes. They both have incense. Their priests look  like they wear dresses. You know, they say words   we don't know what they mean. And they speak  in different languages. It all looks like hocus   pocus when you're a Protestant. But but yeah, you  know, there's a lot of difference between the the  

Eastern and the Western church. um Protestant  evangelicals are balkcanizing though even um in   American evangelicalism because we recognize that  there is a sickness among Protestants that have   decided to cater to worldliness. By that I mean  doing what is popular in the culture as opposed   to what is scriptural. Yes. And so there is, I  think, hell to pay for mega churches and for your   your big box evangelical super center churches  because for so many years their church growth   methodology or their church growth uh policy  was just to see how big they could get. almost   growing a church the way Rome satisfied the Romans  there at the end just breding circuses. You know,   um I used to joke about churches shooting midgets  out of cannons just to get a crowd on Sunday. You   know, pastors were coming in on zip lines and  there's it's always something attractional and   that's really great until the first time in your  life you hit a real crisis or you have something   that that is deeply troubling you. You have an  issue in your life that a good time on Sunday  

morning doesn't help you overcome. You need  something deeper. And people uh are right now   I think fighting almost resisting the big box  megaurch experience in the United States, which   is good and they should. And I hope that many of  those big churches um not not because they're big,   but if they're big because they were trying to  water down the doctrine and just see how many,   you know, warm bodies they could put into a room  at the same time and call the church, they should   die because that's not actually biblically what  a church is. So anyways, with the balkcanization,   you have Christians going their own way. So, you  don't see a lot of those huge names anymore. The   big ones like Greg Lori, they all, you know,  he's got his own scandal right now. They're all   scandalized and going away. Um, but there are some  mid I call them mid-tier names of guys that are   um not bending the knee to Israel and they're  going to be in the camp that you would call   covenantal or reformed, but they they exist. And  so I work with, for example, NXR. Um Joel Webbon,   I do a Substack for him and he's been very good  on this topic. Um there are a couple of guys in  

Ogden, Utah with what's called New Christendom  Press that have been very good on this issue,   too. So they're out there. You have to look  a little bit harder. You're not going to see   anytime soon a church marquee that says we do not  stand with Israel. That's not going to happen.   But I know for a fact that there are a lot of  people inside American evangelical churches that   are approaching the pastor privately saying, "Can  we talk about Israel? Why are you promoting this?"   Hey, on Sunday's in Sunday's sermon, why did  you say Israel is the chosen people of God? What   are we? Are we not the chosen people of God? And  make them wrestle through those important issues.   Yeah. Because the point is not just that it it's  inspired American Christians to support genocide,   which it has, or the Netanyahu government, the  buffoonish criminal uh government of Netanyahu,   but that it diminishes Jesus within Christianity  like, and it corrupts the Christian faith. I mean,   that's the real cost, it seems to me. Yeah,  it does. And it it what it's frustrating too   because you see the the very people whose alleged  ancestors crucified Jesus almost using him as a   mascot for for genocide where they don't believe  in Jesus but they will look at you as a Christian  

and they'll say you know your Messiah is Jewish.  I'm like well yeah and your ancestors killed him.   like I don't owe you anything. Mike Huckabe said,  "Was it this week or was it uh last week that we   have an eternal moral debt to the Jewish people?"  That line frustrated me so much. What do you mean   we have an eternal Jew? An eternal moral debt  to the Jewish people. Jesus paid my debts. I'm   a Christian. I don't have any debt to anyone.  Espec Especially not on on ethnic grounds.   Exactly. That's that's absurd. As a matter of  fact, the new covenant, the ultimate identity   politics. Oh my. The the new covenant that Jesus  installed, the difference is now the, you know,   the parents eat sour grapes and the children's  teeth is not set on edge. That we're not paying   for what our parents did. And so the eternal moral  debt thing is just like an affront to what Jesus   actually accomplished. But you have people who  don't believe in Jesus try to take property and   ownership of Jesus. And that's why we push back on  them sometimes over the the Jesus is Jewish thing.   Like you'll see some of us troublemakers push back  on that. We don't mean to say he's not an ethnic   descendant of Abraham, but he's not rabbitically  Jewish and you don't own him. No one owns him.  

He's a son of man. He belongs to the entire world.  That he came from the Jews. That's true. But he   came for the nations. He came for everyone. And  and frankly, anyone who believes in Jesus is more   an authentic child of Abraham than any Jew who  doesn't. So at the end of the day, that's frankly   that's my promised land. Because the scripture  says I'm a joint heir with Jesus Christ, not them.   I'm the joint heir. Jesus is entitled to all of  the Middle East. He owns everything. And you know,   the the frustrating part of listening to the  dispensationalists is that they get too caught   up on who has the keys to the desert trailer park.  Like who who has, you know, who has ownership of   this little strip of land in the Middle East?  And it's like, let me get this right. God the Son   became an embryo and planted himself into the womb  of a virgin lived a life on earth that we should   have lived and then he died a death on our behalf.  God the father imputing sin to him. He died as a   substitute in our place vicariously on our behalf.  And then proving that his sacrifice was accepted   and that he truly is the son of God. He rose again  from the dead. 40 days later, ascended uh in to  

heaven and he's coming back again. And what you're  worried about is who has the keys to the West Bank   and Gaza? Like the Christian message is that Jesus  is the owner and operator of every square inch of   God's creation. Every bit of it, not just this  tiny little strip here. And dispensationalists   are so busy focusing on how does this prophecy  play out and how does that prophecy play out   that they miss the big picture. They miss that  it's a message of hate and division and violence   and avarice. whereas the Christian message  is love and unity and peace between people.   I was thinking the other day, Tucker, how messed  up it is that the message that you get from from   the the Jewish front basically uh regarding  the Iranian war right now is if you love Jews,   the way you can prove that if you really love Jews  as a Christian, the best way for you to prove that   is for you to give them money so they can buy  more bombs to blow up more children over there,   whether it's Lebanon or Gaza or in Iran. It's  like, how offensive is it as a Christian to   be told that the way I prove I love Jesus is to  give you bombs to murder people? Who, by the way,  

if we're talking I'll bless them that bless thee  and curse them that curse thee, those people are   related to Abraham, too through Ishma. Yes,  of course. They're his ethnic lineage also.   It's like you want me to give money to one child  of Abraham genetically to murder another one and   that's how I prove my Christian faith. That's not  Christian faith. That's downright satanic. Jesus   said, "If you harm a little one, it'd be better  that you tie a millstone around your neck and   cast yourself into the sea." And here we have  this whole Jewish/Christian cottage industry   where we are collecting millions of dollars every  Sunday into the offering plate to go directly to   the Israeli state. Not to share the gospel, not  to tell anyone about Jesus and the good news of   what Jesus did on the cross to save sinners from  the wrath of God, but to to give money essentially   to a genocide fund. Mike Huckabe was a pastor.  Do you think Mike Huckabe has ever stood on a   street corner and told the Jewish people who their  king is? There's not a chance in hell that he's   done that or else he wouldn't be the ambassador  anymore. They'd have bought him a plane ticket.   And so it's like if if you love Jesus, first and  foremost, if you're a Christian, tell the Jews   about Jesus because God wants to bring them to a  saving faith in the king that they've rejected.  

And then just like anyone else that you love, just  because you love them doesn't mean you necessarily   give them what they want. Because what Jews want  from Christians is political clout in the United   States to continue this violent Ponzi scheme  that they have going on in the in the Middle   East. And doing that in Jesus's name, so far as  Christians are concerned, they're not doing it   in Jesus's name when they don't need our money.  But you know what I mean? We can't we we can't as   Christians participate in that. No. JD Hall, thank  you for that. That was great. Good to be with you.