Buying Pastors & Stalking Churchgoers: Israel’s Longtime Heist on the Christian Church Exposed

Thanks for coming back. Thanks for coming back. >> Yeah, thanks, man. >> Yeah, thanks, man. >> Yeah, thanks, man. >> Maybe you can help solve a mystery. So, >> Maybe you can help solve a mystery. So, >> Maybe you can help solve a mystery. So, I've always known that different people I've always known that different people I've always known that different people have different views on Israel. I've have different views on Israel. I've have different views on Israel. I've never been upset about it. Post-Gaza, never been upset about it. Post-Gaza, never been upset about it. Post-Gaza, I'm rethinking about I'm rethinking about I'm rethinking about if all those views are legitimate, but I if all those views are legitimate, but I if all those views are legitimate, but I know that decent people have different know that decent people have different know that decent people have different views on Israel. views on Israel. views on Israel. Totally fine. And that includes Totally fine. And that includes Totally fine. And that includes Christians. Christians. Christians. And but in the past year, it does seem And but in the past year, it does seem And but in the past year, it does seem that for some Christian leaders, that for some Christian leaders, that for some Christian leaders, I don't want to call anyone out by name, I don't want to call anyone out by name, I don't want to call anyone out by name, but Israel's the only thing that but Israel's the only thing that but Israel's the only thing that matters. matters. matters. So, they'll approach fellow Christians So, they'll approach fellow Christians So, they'll approach fellow Christians with one question in mind, where does with one question in mind, where does with one question in mind, where does this person stand on the government of this person stand on the government of this person stand on the government of Israel? Israel? Israel? And so, it occupies a much greater And so, it occupies a much greater And so, it occupies a much greater percentage of mental disk space than I percentage of mental disk space than I percentage of mental disk space than I ever imagined. ever imagined. ever imagined. Certainly than it does for me. Certainly than it does for me. Certainly than it does for me. So, what is that? So, what is that? So, what is that? >> Well, it's the Old Covenant, you know, >> Well, it's the Old Covenant, you know, >> Well, it's the Old Covenant, you know, I was raised I was raised I was raised just non-denominational Christian in just non-denominational Christian in just non-denominational Christian in large-scale churches, and we were large-scale churches, and we were large-scale churches, and we were pro-Israel. pro-Israel. pro-Israel. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> It's It's just a consistent deal when >> It's It's just a consistent deal when >> It's It's just a consistent deal when you look at I'm always going to go back you look at I'm always going to go back you look at I'm always going to go back to scripture. So, I'm always going to to scripture. So, I'm always going to to scripture. So, I'm always going to use the Bible to reference my use the Bible to reference my use the Bible to reference my perspective and what I what I think is perspective and what I what I think is perspective and what I what I think is going on.

going on. going on. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> The nation-state of Israel has just >> The nation-state of Israel has just >> The nation-state of Israel has just become an idol to the church become an idol to the church become an idol to the church in regards to how they in regards to how they in regards to how they perceive Not all of them, but how they perceive Not all of them, but how they perceive Not all of them, but how they Some of them perceive it, and you have Some of them perceive it, and you have Some of them perceive it, and you have to ask why. And so, we've done a little to ask why. And so, we've done a little to ask why. And so, we've done a little digging in regards to some fire filings digging in regards to some fire filings digging in regards to some fire filings and and others and and when you look at and and others and and when you look at and and others and and when you look at the Old Covenant in the Bible, the Old Covenant in the Bible, the Old Covenant in the Bible, it's one of those it's one of those it's one of those spots or parts of the covenant that you spots or parts of the covenant that you spots or parts of the covenant that you can weaponize. can weaponize. can weaponize. Israel's one of them. Giving and Israel's one of them. Giving and Israel's one of them. Giving and generosity, tithing is one of them. generosity, tithing is one of them. generosity, tithing is one of them. And when Christ came, he he came to And when Christ came, he he came to And when Christ came, he he came to fulfill that whole Old Covenant, that fulfill that whole Old Covenant, that fulfill that whole Old Covenant, that whole contract. A new covenant. It's whole contract. A new covenant. It's whole contract. A new covenant. It's literally a new covenant. So, that Old literally a new covenant. So, that Old literally a new covenant. So, that Old Covenant is complete, done, fulfilled, Covenant is complete, done, fulfilled, Covenant is complete, done, fulfilled, put on the shelf. A new contract is in put on the shelf. A new contract is in put on the shelf. A new contract is in place, and that's Christ's contract, place, and that's Christ's contract, place, and that's Christ's contract, Christ's covenant. And um if you're if Christ's covenant. And um if you're if Christ's covenant. And um if you're if you're a Bible-believing Christian. But you're a Bible-believing Christian. But you're a Bible-believing Christian. But what that new covenant does is it takes what that new covenant does is it takes what that new covenant does is it takes the teeth out of the old covenant, the the teeth out of the old covenant, the the teeth out of the old covenant, the old contracts, you know, that Mosaic old contracts, you know, that Mosaic old contracts, you know, that Mosaic law. But people like to lean on that law. But people like to lean on that law. But people like to lean on that contract and that law because you can contract and that law because you can contract and that law because you can weapon- I'm going to say weaponize it.

weapon- I'm going to say weaponize it. weapon- I'm going to say weaponize it. You can build empires again and build You can build empires again and build You can build empires again and build power structures around basically double power structures around basically double power structures around basically double dipping in covenants. So you can say dipping in covenants. So you can say dipping in covenants. So you can say take some things that Jesus said and take some things that Jesus said and take some things that Jesus said and grab a couple things from the old grab a couple things from the old grab a couple things from the old covenant and mash them together and you covenant and mash them together and you covenant and mash them together and you have have have a just a different thing you have a just a different thing you have a just a different thing you have Judeo-Christianity. Judeo-Christianity. Judeo-Christianity. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> You know, not Christianity and not >> You know, not Christianity and not >> You know, not Christianity and not Judaism, you have Judeo-Christianity. Um Judaism, you have Judeo-Christianity. Um Judaism, you have Judeo-Christianity. Um >> It's like a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup. >> It's like a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup. >> It's like a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup. >> Exactly. It's it's it's neither or. It's >> Exactly. It's it's it's neither or. It's >> Exactly. It's it's it's neither or. It's It's so Israel, the nation-state, It's so Israel, the nation-state, It's so Israel, the nation-state, has become one of those cards that you has become one of those cards that you has become one of those cards that you can pull and say, "Hey, if you don't can pull and say, "Hey, if you don't can pull and say, "Hey, if you don't back the nation-state, then you clearly back the nation-state, then you clearly back the nation-state, then you clearly don't believe this book or or, you know, don't believe this book or or, you know, don't believe this book or or, you know, that God is our God." And so that God is our God." And so that God is our God." And so I always push back. I consider myself I always push back. I consider myself I always push back. I consider myself kind of an auditor in this regard, so I kind of an auditor in this regard, so I kind of an auditor in this regard, so I wanted to audit the nation-state of wanted to audit the nation-state of wanted to audit the nation-state of Israel and say, "What is it exactly Israel and say, "What is it exactly Israel and say, "What is it exactly scripturally?" scripturally?" scripturally?" >> is >> is >> is Boy, it's it's jarring to hear you put Boy, it's it's jarring to hear you put Boy, it's it's jarring to hear you put it so plainly, but that is really what it so plainly, but that is really what it so plainly, but that is really what they're saying. If you don't support the they're saying. If you don't support the they're saying. If you don't support the Netanyahu government, you're not a Netanyahu government, you're not a Netanyahu government, you're not a Christian. Christian. Christian. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I've heard it. I've I've heard that and >> I've heard it. I've I've heard that and >> I've heard it. I've I've heard that and Some, like the the dimmer ones, like Some, like the the dimmer ones, like Some, like the the dimmer ones, like Huckabee, just say it out loud, but that Huckabee, just say it out loud, but that Huckabee, just say it out loud, but that is the assumption behind a lot of it.

is the assumption behind a lot of it. is the assumption behind a lot of it. >> Well, and if and if my fellow brothers >> Well, and if and if my fellow brothers >> Well, and if and if my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ haven't read the and sisters in Christ haven't read the and sisters in Christ haven't read the book in its entirety, then they'll take book in its entirety, then they'll take book in its entirety, then they'll take what Huckabee or what their potential what Huckabee or what their potential what Huckabee or what their potential pastor says from the stage as as pastor says from the stage as as pastor says from the stage as as scripturally sound. And so that's what scripturally sound. And so that's what scripturally sound. And so that's what I've had a great time doing. I've had a great time doing. I've had a great time doing. >> I mean, yeah, I've read the book, by the >> I mean, yeah, I've read the book, by the >> I mean, yeah, I've read the book, by the way, more than once, way, more than once, way, more than once, but I didn't need to read it to know but I didn't need to read it to know but I didn't need to read it to know that Jesus is probably not endorsing that Jesus is probably not endorsing that Jesus is probably not endorsing killing the innocent or killing kids. killing the innocent or killing kids. killing the innocent or killing kids. >> Well, I would say there's even a >> Well, I would say there's even a >> Well, I would say there's even a naivete, there's a strategic ignorance naivete, there's a strategic ignorance naivete, there's a strategic ignorance around that. around that. around that. Right? Like in season one of The Right? Like in season one of The Right? Like in season one of The Religion Business, uh a development Religion Business, uh a development Religion Business, uh a development economist breaks down what strategic economist breaks down what strategic economist breaks down what strategic ignorance is and we as humans want to ignorance is and we as humans want to ignorance is and we as humans want to stay strategically ignorant of things stay strategically ignorant of things stay strategically ignorant of things that push against our biases. that push against our biases. that push against our biases. >> Boy, I've been there. >> Boy, I've been there. >> Boy, I've been there. >> Yeah, and so have I. And so that's the >> Yeah, and so have I. And so that's the >> Yeah, and so have I. And so that's the thing is is as we grow and hopefully thing is is as we grow and hopefully thing is is as we grow and hopefully mature, we look at the the surroundings mature, we look at the the surroundings mature, we look at the the surroundings and say, "Okay, what is truth and what and say, "Okay, what is truth and what and say, "Okay, what is truth and what is not truth?" is not truth?" is not truth?" >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And a really simple truth is the >> And a really simple truth is the >> And a really simple truth is the nation-state of Israel is not the ethnic nation-state of Israel is not the ethnic nation-state of Israel is not the ethnic tribe tribe tribe >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> that's described in the Torah. And so if >> that's described in the Torah. And so if >> that's described in the Torah. And so if that's our baseline, then okay, now we that's our baseline, then okay, now we that's our baseline, then okay, now we can reshape our we can look at what's can reshape our we can look at what's can reshape our we can look at what's truth and not truth and and see you truth and not truth and and see you truth and not truth and and see you know, where people are leveraging that know, where people are leveraging that know, where people are leveraging that card or weaponizing that card for their card or weaponizing that card for their card or weaponizing that card for their own gain.

own gain. own gain. >> But you would think, again, even if you >> But you would think, again, even if you >> But you would think, again, even if you you're not familiar with the details of you're not familiar with the details of you're not familiar with the details of that book, you haven't read the Old or that book, you haven't read the Old or that book, you haven't read the Old or New Testaments, you would sort of New Testaments, you would sort of New Testaments, you would sort of intuit, you would sense that Jesus is intuit, you would sense that Jesus is intuit, you would sense that Jesus is not in favor of say like genocide. not in favor of say like genocide. not in favor of say like genocide. >> Correct. I I would hope. But but there's >> Correct. I I would hope. But but there's >> Correct. I I would hope. But but there's always a counterargument. Like in these always a counterargument. Like in these always a counterargument. Like in these FARA documents, you know, the FARA documents, you know, the FARA documents, you know, the you know, these it literally the the you know, these it literally the the you know, these it literally the the foreign agent is Israel Minister of foreign agent is Israel Minister of foreign agent is Israel Minister of Foreign Affairs, you know, and Foreign Affairs, you know, and Foreign Affairs, you know, and >> So I I keep stepping on it. So what are >> So I I keep stepping on it. So what are >> So I I keep stepping on it. So what are those documents? So you're you're those documents? So you're you're those documents? So you're you're basically saying, in order to understand basically saying, in order to understand basically saying, in order to understand this, you look not just at the theology, this, you look not just at the theology, this, you look not just at the theology, but at the money. but at the money. but at the money. >> Correct, at the money because So okay, >> Correct, at the money because So okay, >> Correct, at the money because So okay, yes, I think most people would say yes, I think most people would say yes, I think most people would say genocide in Gaza is wrong, right? But genocide in Gaza is wrong, right? But genocide in Gaza is wrong, right? But then they then they will always find a then they then they will always find a then they then they will always find a counter, which is well, there's bad counter, which is well, there's bad counter, which is well, there's bad things, there's there's there's evil things, there's there's there's evil things, there's there's there's evil inside Gaza that needs to be removed, inside Gaza that needs to be removed, inside Gaza that needs to be removed, right? right? right? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And so that's where this FARA document's >> And so that's where this FARA document's >> And so that's where this FARA document's interesting is cuz you can see the interesting is cuz you can see the interesting is cuz you can see the nation-state nation-state nation-state weaponizing the American church to sway weaponizing the American church to sway weaponizing the American church to sway their opinion to say, "Hey, you know their opinion to say, "Hey, you know their opinion to say, "Hey, you know what? No, the genocide is rationalized what? No, the genocide is rationalized what? No, the genocide is rationalized and we're not going to call it genocide and we're not going to call it genocide and we're not going to call it genocide because of X, Y, and Z." So that's what because of X, Y, and Z." So that's what because of X, Y, and Z." So that's what this document just shows. It shows that this document just shows. It shows that this document just shows. It shows that millions of dollars came from the millions of dollars came from the millions of dollars came from the nation-state of Israel to sway massive nation-state of Israel to sway massive nation-state of Israel to sway massive megachurches in America or at least the megachurches in America or at least the megachurches in America or at least the pastors because when you can sway the pastors because when you can sway the pastors because when you can sway the pastor, the pastor can sway their pastor, the pastor can sway their pastor, the pastor can sway their congregation.

congregation. congregation. >> So how does it work? >> So how does it work? >> So how does it work? >> How does >> How does >> How does In regards to this system? In regards to this system? In regards to this system? >> Yeah, the system. What what are the FARA >> Yeah, the system. What what are the FARA >> Yeah, the system. What what are the FARA FARA means Foreign Agent Registration FARA means Foreign Agent Registration FARA means Foreign Agent Registration Act. Act. Act. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> What are >> What are >> What are >> do those documents show? >> do those documents show? >> do those documents show? >> So, this one shows in particular, um, >> So, this one shows in particular, um, >> So, this one shows in particular, um, basically, uh, we'll call it like a basically, uh, we'll call it like a basically, uh, we'll call it like a marketing effort and and ironically, marketing effort and and ironically, marketing effort and and ironically, this is this is fun. There's multiple this is this is fun. There's multiple this is this is fun. There's multiple pages of just hundreds of churches on pages of just hundreds of churches on pages of just hundreds of churches on the West Coast, um, that have very large the West Coast, um, that have very large the West Coast, um, that have very large audiences. And what it is is it's a audiences. And what it is is it's a audiences. And what it is is it's a marketing effort. It's a geofencing marketing effort. It's a geofencing marketing effort. It's a geofencing effort. So, if you go to your church effort. So, if you go to your church effort. So, if you go to your church and you walk into that building, there and you walk into that building, there and you walk into that building, there is a digital geofence and if you ping is a digital geofence and if you ping is a digital geofence and if you ping your phone, that geofence is triggered your phone, that geofence is triggered your phone, that geofence is triggered and what that means is they're going to and what that means is they're going to and what that means is they're going to get your phone's IP address, they're get your phone's IP address, they're get your phone's IP address, they're going to start sending you messages and going to start sending you messages and going to start sending you messages and sending you advertising that's sending you advertising that's sending you advertising that's pro-Israel pro-Israel pro-Israel and, you know, and, you know, and, you know, anti-Palestine for lack of a And it says anti-Palestine for lack of a And it says anti-Palestine for lack of a And it says all this in the documents. And so, all this in the documents. And so, all this in the documents. And so, ironically, this is what I called my dad ironically, this is what I called my dad ironically, this is what I called my dad this morning cuz I was like, "Hey, what this morning cuz I was like, "Hey, what this morning cuz I was like, "Hey, what church did we go to when we were kids?" church did we go to when we were kids?" church did we go to when we were kids?" And sure enough, the churches the two And sure enough, the churches the two And sure enough, the churches the two churches I went to from churches I went to from churches I went to from the day I was born to 21 years old are the day I was born to 21 years old are the day I was born to 21 years old are on that list.

on that list. on that list. And so, that means had I walked into And so, that means had I walked into And so, that means had I walked into those churches, I could have potentially those churches, I could have potentially those churches, I could have potentially been geofenced and then they would have been geofenced and then they would have been geofenced and then they would have tracked my phone and they could ping me tracked my phone and they could ping me tracked my phone and they could ping me pro pro-nation state Israel material. pro pro-nation state Israel material. pro pro-nation state Israel material. And so, this effort is funded by Israel, And so, this effort is funded by Israel, And so, this effort is funded by Israel, by the nation state of Israel. by the nation state of Israel. by the nation state of Israel. >> And is it, um, when you say funded, >> And is it, um, when you say funded, >> And is it, um, when you say funded, like, does money flow to the church? like, does money flow to the church? like, does money flow to the church? Does the church know that it's Does the church know that it's Does the church know that it's >> We can't congregation's being geofenced? >> We can't congregation's being geofenced? >> We can't congregation's being geofenced? >> Uh, the uh, no, not necessarily. So, >> Uh, the uh, no, not necessarily. So, >> Uh, the uh, no, not necessarily. So, that's where it gets dark is, um, the that's where it gets dark is, um, the that's where it gets dark is, um, the church doesn't even know that they're church doesn't even know that they're church doesn't even know that they're being targeted. being targeted. being targeted. And so, it's like a it's a And so, it's like a it's a And so, it's like a it's a over it's like a subversive targeting. over it's like a subversive targeting. over it's like a subversive targeting. >> Is a foreign government doing this to >> Is a foreign government doing this to >> Is a foreign government doing this to our churches here? our churches here? our churches here? >> Correct. A great example would be like, >> Correct. A great example would be like, >> Correct. A great example would be like, "Hey, if I if my kids are in college and "Hey, if I if my kids are in college and "Hey, if I if my kids are in college and the Chinese the Chinese the Chinese >> the Iranian government was doing this to >> the Iranian government was doing this to >> the Iranian government was doing this to us?" us?" us?" >> What if or Chi- China, Russia, Iran, >> What if or Chi- China, Russia, Iran, >> What if or Chi- China, Russia, Iran, what happens if they were targeting our what happens if they were targeting our what happens if they were targeting our universities? We would be up in arms. universities? We would be up in arms. universities? We would be up in arms. So, we have a a foreign government So, we have a a foreign government So, we have a a foreign government targeting our churches and then at the targeting our churches and then at the targeting our churches and then at the same time they also are targeting the same time they also are targeting the same time they also are targeting the pastors wanting them to come over to pastors wanting them to come over to pastors wanting them to come over to Israel the nation state. They walk Israel the nation state. They walk Israel the nation state. They walk through you know the through you know the through you know the you know they they give them tours of you know they they give them tours of you know they they give them tours of the historical sites which is awesome.

the historical sites which is awesome. the historical sites which is awesome. But they're leveraging the Old Testament But they're leveraging the Old Testament But they're leveraging the Old Testament and these historical sites to basically and these historical sites to basically and these historical sites to basically calcify the nation state and say oh you calcify the nation state and say oh you calcify the nation state and say oh you what we're doing is is biblical and what what we're doing is is biblical and what what we're doing is is biblical and what Palestine and and these evil these other Palestine and and these evil these other Palestine and and these evil these other these other evil people are doing these these other evil people are doing these these other evil people are doing these to be wiped out. Like the great like to be wiped out. Like the great like to be wiped out. Like the great like there's some I highlighted it some of it there's some I highlighted it some of it there's some I highlighted it some of it for you in this document but it's wild. for you in this document but it's wild. for you in this document but it's wild. Um once you get past the the the list of Um once you get past the the the list of Um once you get past the the the list of hundreds of churches um hundreds of churches um hundreds of churches um it's such a long document. But so a it's such a long document. But so a it's such a long document. But so a Christian ready show show faith by works Christian ready show show faith by works Christian ready show show faith by works a Christian education and Israeli a Christian education and Israeli a Christian education and Israeli information campaign. The goal is to information campaign. The goal is to information campaign. The goal is to combat low American evangelical combat low American evangelical combat low American evangelical Christian approval of the nation state Christian approval of the nation state Christian approval of the nation state of Israel. Says it right there. So this of Israel. Says it right there. So this of Israel. Says it right there. So this this entire goal to geofence your church this entire goal to geofence your church this entire goal to geofence your church is to combat your low approval rating of is to combat your low approval rating of is to combat your low approval rating of a nation state. Well, maybe we should a nation state. Well, maybe we should a nation state. Well, maybe we should question like why is there a low question like why is there a low question like why is there a low approval rating? Are you committing approval rating? Are you committing approval rating? Are you committing genocide? Like that might be a reason genocide? Like that might be a reason genocide? Like that might be a reason why they're low. why they're low. why they're low. >> that and that does affect approval >> that and that does affect approval >> that and that does affect approval ratings. ratings. ratings. >> 100% and so the messaging that we are >> 100% and so the messaging that we are >> 100% and so the messaging that we are going to use inside this geofence it's going to use inside this geofence it's going to use inside this geofence it's all pro-Israel all pro-Israel all pro-Israel and then anti-Palestinian state.

and then anti-Palestinian state. and then anti-Palestinian state. And they list the messaging that they're And they list the messaging that they're And they list the messaging that they're going to that they're going to hit the going to that they're going to hit the going to that they're going to hit the churches churches churches >> Anti-Palestinian state? >> Anti-Palestinian state? >> Anti-Palestinian state? >> Yep. Um >> Yep. Um >> Yep. Um the first is of course Hamas is a the first is of course Hamas is a the first is of course Hamas is a Palestinian terrorist organization. Palestinian terrorist organization. Palestinian terrorist organization. Um Um Um There was never a state of Palestine at There was never a state of Palestine at There was never a state of Palestine at any time in history. So these are the any time in history. So these are the any time in history. So these are the bullet points that you're going to see bullet points that you're going to see bullet points that you're going to see on your phones from this campaign. on your phones from this campaign. on your phones from this campaign. And then you can just keep going. And then you can just keep going. And then you can just keep going. There's there's a pastoral and education There's there's a pastoral and education There's there's a pastoral and education resources so they're going to give resources so they're going to give resources so they're going to give pastors educational resources that's pastors educational resources that's pastors educational resources that's pro-nation state Israel and pro-nation state Israel and pro-nation state Israel and anti-Palestine. anti-Palestine. anti-Palestine. They're going to go to college and They're going to go to college and They're going to go to college and Christian college universities and do Christian college universities and do Christian college universities and do the same thing. the same thing. the same thing. And you can just go through it. So this And you can just go through it. So this And you can just go through it. So this was millions of dollars was spent on was millions of dollars was spent on was millions of dollars was spent on this campaign and this is my favorite this campaign and this is my favorite this campaign and this is my favorite one. Ready? They proudly in their one. Ready? They proudly in their one. Ready? They proudly in their digital support effort, this is the digital support effort, this is the digital support effort, this is the largest geo-fencing and Christian largest geo-fencing and Christian largest geo-fencing and Christian targeting campaign in US history. That's targeting campaign in US history. That's targeting campaign in US history. That's what they call it in their own in their what they call it in their own in their what they call it in their own in their own documentation. We're targeting own documentation. We're targeting own documentation. We're targeting Christians and this is the largest Christians and this is the largest Christians and this is the largest targeting of Christians ever. targeting of Christians ever. targeting of Christians ever. And then they go to Christian events and And then they go to Christian events and And then they go to Christian events and this is a funny one for me. Um if you this is a funny one for me. Um if you this is a funny one for me. Um if you know Greg Laurie, but uh his church is know Greg Laurie, but uh his church is know Greg Laurie, but uh his church is Harvest in Riverside and he puts on Harvest in Riverside and he puts on Harvest in Riverside and he puts on these big festivals uh these big festivals uh these big festivals uh and he's in he's in a big scandal right and he's in he's in a big scandal right and he's in he's in a big scandal right now cuz he had a um now cuz he had a um now cuz he had a um he ran orphanages, his church ran he ran orphanages, his church ran he ran orphanages, his church ran orphanages in um orphanages in um orphanages in um in where was it? Uh man, it's it's in in where was it? Uh man, it's it's in in where was it? Uh man, it's it's in the show in Eastern Europe and one of the show in Eastern Europe and one of the show in Eastern Europe and one of the pastors there allegedly raped and the pastors there allegedly raped and the pastors there allegedly raped and sodomized sodomized sodomized hundreds, potentially hundreds of hundreds, potentially hundreds of hundreds, potentially hundreds of orphans there and orphans there and orphans there and Greg Laurie knew about it. They sent a Greg Laurie knew about it. They sent a Greg Laurie knew about it. They sent a team over and he did nothing about it team over and he did nothing about it team over and he did nothing about it cuz it was such a big revenue generator.

cuz it was such a big revenue generator. cuz it was such a big revenue generator. And uh he's he's one of the he's one of And uh he's he's one of the he's one of And uh he's he's one of the he's one of the he's he actually he's ironically, the he's he actually he's ironically, the he's he actually he's ironically, hopefully their main spokesperson. hopefully their main spokesperson. hopefully their main spokesperson. They've got a photo of him in their They've got a photo of him in their They've got a photo of him in their deck, too, saying we want Greg Laurie to deck, too, saying we want Greg Laurie to deck, too, saying we want Greg Laurie to be the face of this. [laughter] be the face of this. [laughter] be the face of this. [laughter] >> Seriously? >> Seriously? >> Seriously? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So millions is the Israeli Ministry of So millions is the Israeli Ministry of So millions is the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs spends millions of Foreign Affairs spends millions of Foreign Affairs spends millions of dollars geo-fencing our churches for dollars geo-fencing our churches for dollars geo-fencing our churches for pro-Israeli, pro-nation state Israeli pro-Israeli, pro-nation state Israeli pro-Israeli, pro-nation state Israeli propaganda. propaganda. propaganda. And if your pastor's behind it, then And if your pastor's behind it, then And if your pastor's behind it, then hey, your pastor's going to say the same hey, your pastor's going to say the same hey, your pastor's going to say the same thing. thing. thing. >> hard to believe. You know, there's this >> hard to believe. You know, there's this >> hard to believe. You know, there's this line in Mark 13, I think, where Jesus is line in Mark 13, I think, where Jesus is line in Mark 13, I think, where Jesus is saying to the Pharisees, he's like saying to the Pharisees, he's like saying to the Pharisees, he's like or saying to others, religious leaders or saying to others, religious leaders or saying to others, religious leaders are in trouble cuz they wander around in are in trouble cuz they wander around in are in trouble cuz they wander around in their long flowing robes, they get their long flowing robes, they get their long flowing robes, they get respect from everyone in the respect from everyone in the respect from everyone in the marketplace, but they're actually marketplace, but they're actually marketplace, but they're actually cheating widows out of their property. cheating widows out of their property. cheating widows out of their property. And you read that and you're like, would And you read that and you're like, would And you read that and you're like, would a religious leader really cheat a widow a religious leader really cheat a widow a religious leader really cheat a widow out of her property? Like that's just out of her property? Like that's just out of her property? Like that's just crazy. Only in first century Palestine crazy. Only in first century Palestine crazy. Only in first century Palestine could that ever happen. And could that ever happen. And could that ever happen. And >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> then you hear her >> then you hear her >> then you hear her like it's just amazing. It's like it's just amazing. It's like it's just amazing. It's it's just hard it's hard it's hard to it's just hard it's hard it's hard to it's just hard it's hard it's hard to believe a religious person would do believe a religious person would do believe a religious person would do that.

that. that. >> Well, there's there's religious >> Well, there's there's religious >> Well, there's there's religious organizations that are registered as organizations that are registered as organizations that are registered as churches that literally buy out churches that literally buy out churches that literally buy out permanent life insurance policies from permanent life insurance policies from permanent life insurance policies from elderly people that need money for elderly people that need money for elderly people that need money for pennies on the dollar. pennies on the dollar. pennies on the dollar. >> Actually? >> Actually? >> Actually? >> Actually. >> Actually. >> Actually. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Part of their business model as a church >> Part of their business model as a church >> Part of their business model as a church is to basically go up to a widow or or is to basically go up to a widow or or is to basically go up to a widow or or elderly couple that's struggling and elderly couple that's struggling and elderly couple that's struggling and say, "You know what? We're just going to say, "You know what? We're just going to say, "You know what? We're just going to buy your permanent life insurance policy buy your permanent life insurance policy buy your permanent life insurance policy that you've been paying down for 40 that you've been paying down for 40 that you've been paying down for 40 years for pennies on the dollar cuz you years for pennies on the dollar cuz you years for pennies on the dollar cuz you need money." need money." need money." There's one that's built I I was told a There's one that's built I I was told a There's one that's built I I was told a $700 million war chest base came off of $700 million war chest base came off of $700 million war chest base came off of that. They have $700 million sitting in that. They have $700 million sitting in that. They have $700 million sitting in the bank off of buying out elderly the bank off of buying out elderly the bank off of buying out elderly people's permanent life insurance people's permanent life insurance people's permanent life insurance policies. policies. policies. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> So, they are And and my my translation >> So, they are And and my my translation >> So, they are And and my my translation reads "devouring widows' houses." And reads "devouring widows' houses." And reads "devouring widows' houses." And they're devouring houses in the name of they're devouring houses in the name of they're devouring houses in the name of Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. >> So, what's in your toothpaste? If you're >> So, what's in your toothpaste? If you're >> So, what's in your toothpaste? If you're using the brand you grew up with, you using the brand you grew up with, you using the brand you grew up with, you probably don't want to know. The probably don't want to know. The probably don't want to know. The ingredients likely include fluoride, ingredients likely include fluoride, ingredients likely include fluoride, something called SLS, glycerin, foaming something called SLS, glycerin, foaming something called SLS, glycerin, foaming agents. It's a chemical cocktail. agents. It's a chemical cocktail. agents. It's a chemical cocktail. Van Man's toothpaste is different. Their Van Man's toothpaste is different. Their Van Man's toothpaste is different. Their Miracle Tooth Powder is changing Miracle Tooth Powder is changing Miracle Tooth Powder is changing everything, and people are ditching everything, and people are ditching everything, and people are ditching traditional toothpaste filled with traditional toothpaste filled with traditional toothpaste filled with chemicals by the thousands.

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Page one. Page one. >> How many um >> How many um >> How many um pastors know that there's an effort like pastors know that there's an effort like pastors know that there's an effort like this behind this behind this behind their views on Israel? >> I'm going to say strategic ignorance. I >> I'm going to say strategic ignorance. I I think they just I think they just I think they just see it as as gossip online. They don't see it as as gossip online. They don't see it as as gossip online. They don't want to get involved. Um this is a hot want to get involved. Um this is a hot want to get involved. Um this is a hot button topic topic for my family, you button topic topic for my family, you button topic topic for my family, you know, cuz I have I have family that are know, cuz I have I have family that are know, cuz I have I have family that are retired pastors or my my uncle's a retired pastors or my my uncle's a retired pastors or my my uncle's a missionary in Kyiv. Like I'm very missionary in Kyiv. Like I'm very missionary in Kyiv. Like I'm very very close to this, and most of them very close to this, and most of them very close to this, and most of them just don't want to believe it. just don't want to believe it. just don't want to believe it. You know, You know, You know, >> So, they don't believe that money is >> So, they don't believe that money is >> So, they don't believe that money is actually coming from a foreign actually coming from a foreign actually coming from a foreign government to influence the opinions of government to influence the opinions of government to influence the opinions of their their their >> Correct. Well, and and if and if I even >> Correct. Well, and and if and if I even >> Correct. Well, and and if and if I even put this in front of them, they'd point put this in front of them, they'd point put this in front of them, they'd point to the book. to the book. to the book. >> And say, "What?" >> And say, "What?" >> And say, "What?" >> And they'd say, "Nathan, like Israel >> And they'd say, "Nathan, like Israel >> And they'd say, "Nathan, like Israel bless Israel and you'll be blessed." bless Israel and you'll be blessed." bless Israel and you'll be blessed." >> Does it say that? >> Does it say that? >> Does it say that? >> No, no, no, no. And we went through the >> No, no, no, no. And we went through the >> No, no, no, no. And we went through the we had a great conversation about this. we had a great conversation about this. we had a great conversation about this. >> love that. >> love that. >> love that. >> Yeah. Yeah, we had a great conversation >> Yeah. Yeah, we had a great conversation >> Yeah. Yeah, we had a great conversation about this earlier. It's it's uh it's about this earlier. It's it's uh it's about this earlier. It's it's uh it's this idea and and since our last this idea and and since our last this idea and and since our last conversation, when we were talking about conversation, when we were talking about conversation, when we were talking about it is finished, when Christ says it's it is finished, when Christ says it's it is finished, when Christ says it's finished on the cross, I just went down finished on the cross, I just went down finished on the cross, I just went down a full rabbit hole in regards to a full rabbit hole in regards to a full rabbit hole in regards to digesting that Old Covenant versus New digesting that Old Covenant versus New digesting that Old Covenant versus New Covenant str- concept, and there is no Covenant str- concept, and there is no Covenant str- concept, and there is no way scripturally you can double dip in way scripturally you can double dip in way scripturally you can double dip in both the Old Covenant and the New both the Old Covenant and the New both the Old Covenant and the New Covenant in the Bible. If you are a Covenant in the Bible. If you are a Covenant in the Bible. If you are a Christ-following Christian, that Old Christ-following Christian, that Old Christ-following Christian, that Old Covenant, that Old Contract, is Covenant, that Old Contract, is Covenant, that Old Contract, is fulfilled and done.

fulfilled and done. fulfilled and done. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> We don't look backwards. There's a great >> We don't look backwards. There's a great >> We don't look backwards. There's a great analogy that I was or maybe I want analogy that I was or maybe I want analogy that I was or maybe I want >> When the curtain in the temple is rent >> When the curtain in the temple is rent >> When the curtain in the temple is rent >> Uh-huh. Yes. Let me know if this is a >> Uh-huh. Yes. Let me know if this is a >> Uh-huh. Yes. Let me know if this is a good analogy or if I'm way off base, but good analogy or if I'm way off base, but good analogy or if I'm way off base, but like like like I I'm a laborer, right? And I need a I I'm a laborer, right? And I need a I I'm a laborer, right? And I need a job, and you're like, "Hey, Nathan, job, and you're like, "Hey, Nathan, job, and you're like, "Hey, Nathan, here's the contract. If you mow my here's the contract. If you mow my here's the contract. If you mow my lawns, cut my trees, and and clean my lawns, cut my trees, and and clean my lawns, cut my trees, and and clean my pool, like we're good. I'll pay you at pool, like we're good. I'll pay you at pool, like we're good. I'll pay you at the end of the day. the end of the day. the end of the day. So, that day I show up, I mow your lawn, So, that day I show up, I mow your lawn, So, that day I show up, I mow your lawn, I cut your trees to like exactly how you I cut your trees to like exactly how you I cut your trees to like exactly how you want it, I clean the pool, and you're want it, I clean the pool, and you're want it, I clean the pool, and you're like, "Here's your payment, Nathan." And like, "Here's your payment, Nathan." And like, "Here's your payment, Nathan." And I go on, and I'm like, "I fulfilled my I go on, and I'm like, "I fulfilled my I go on, and I'm like, "I fulfilled my contract with Tucker, and I'm going to contract with Tucker, and I'm going to contract with Tucker, and I'm going to go to the next house, right?" But go to the next house, right?" But go to the next house, right?" But instead, I wake up the next morning, I instead, I wake up the next morning, I instead, I wake up the next morning, I go, "You know what? I'm going to go back go, "You know what? I'm going to go back go, "You know what? I'm going to go back to Tucker's house, and I'm just going to to Tucker's house, and I'm just going to to Tucker's house, and I'm just going to start doing stuff. Cut the trees, mow start doing stuff. Cut the trees, mow start doing stuff. Cut the trees, mow the lawn again, even though it's already the lawn again, even though it's already the lawn again, even though it's already done, and he's not going to pay me." done, and he's not going to pay me." done, and he's not going to pay me." Because I fulfilled the contract with Because I fulfilled the contract with Because I fulfilled the contract with you. I'm supposed to look forward and you. I'm supposed to look forward and you. I'm supposed to look forward and move on to the new contract. But this is move on to the new contract. But this is move on to the new contract. But this is what churches are doing. They're like, what churches are doing. They're like, what churches are doing. They're like, "I don't know. We're going to come back "I don't know. We're going to come back "I don't know. We're going to come back to this old one and play in it because to this old one and play in it because to this old one and play in it because we like some of the some of the things we like some of the some of the things we like some of the some of the things in here. We like to cherry-pick parts of in here. We like to cherry-pick parts of in here. We like to cherry-pick parts of the old covenant because it justifies the old covenant because it justifies the old covenant because it justifies our current model." The tithe justifies our current model." The tithe justifies our current model." The tithe justifies how we can fund the business, right?

how we can fund the business, right? how we can fund the business, right? Israel justifies how we can drum up Israel justifies how we can drum up Israel justifies how we can drum up attention for this idea of old tribal attention for this idea of old tribal attention for this idea of old tribal old tribal Israel. old tribal Israel. old tribal Israel. But it's we're just grasping at straws But it's we're just grasping at straws But it's we're just grasping at straws if that makes sense. Cuz Christ's if that makes sense. Cuz Christ's if that makes sense. Cuz Christ's message in his new covenant is a message in his new covenant is a message in his new covenant is a it's it's an unconditional, but very it's it's an unconditional, but very it's it's an unconditional, but very unknown you you march into the unknown unknown you you march into the unknown unknown you you march into the unknown in his covenant. You have to have full in his covenant. You have to have full in his covenant. You have to have full faith in him and the Holy Spirit. Legal faith in him and the Holy Spirit. Legal faith in him and the Holy Spirit. Legal legalistic covenants just they're easy legalistic covenants just they're easy legalistic covenants just they're easy to understand, right? You give me 10% or to understand, right? You give me 10% or to understand, right? You give me 10% or 23.3% based off of Old Testament tithe 23.3% based off of Old Testament tithe 23.3% based off of Old Testament tithe laws, and you're good. laws, and you're good. laws, and you're good. Right? You're done, Tucker. Go on your Right? You're done, Tucker. Go on your Right? You're done, Tucker. Go on your way. But Christ says, "No, no, no, you way. But Christ says, "No, no, no, you way. But Christ says, "No, no, no, you have the capacity and the the knowledge have the capacity and the the knowledge have the capacity and the the knowledge to give. What does your heart tell you?" to give. What does your heart tell you?" to give. What does your heart tell you?" Yes. So, it means you have to stand up Yes. So, it means you have to stand up Yes. So, it means you have to stand up and lead, right? And Hebrews it talks and lead, right? And Hebrews it talks and lead, right? And Hebrews it talks about you are your own priest now. Like, about you are your own priest now. Like, about you are your own priest now. Like, there's no mediator between the uh the there's no mediator between the uh the there's no mediator between the uh the Holy of Holies and the outer courts. Holy of Holies and the outer courts. Holy of Holies and the outer courts. Like, you Christ is that mediator Like, you Christ is that mediator Like, you Christ is that mediator mediator, and you walk straight through mediator, and you walk straight through mediator, and you walk straight through into the Holy of Holies. into the Holy of Holies. into the Holy of Holies. But that means you have to stand up and But that means you have to stand up and But that means you have to stand up and understand it and take responsibility understand it and take responsibility understand it and take responsibility and be that priest. But so, if you're and be that priest. But so, if you're and be that priest. But so, if you're that priest, what does it mean? You that priest, what does it mean? You that priest, what does it mean? You don't need the institution anymore. The don't need the institution anymore. The don't need the institution anymore. The model you don't need to sit in that pew.

model you don't need to sit in that pew. model you don't need to sit in that pew. Right? Like you have you have Christ. Right? Like you have you have Christ. Right? Like you have you have Christ. You have his word, his logos, like his You have his word, his logos, like his You have his word, his logos, like his in you on your heart and mind. in you on your heart and mind. in you on your heart and mind. So, you got to lead, Tucker. You got to So, you got to lead, Tucker. You got to So, you got to lead, Tucker. You got to lead like Christ. lead like Christ. lead like Christ. That's a dangerous That's a dangerous That's a dangerous dangerous man or woman to be walking dangerous man or woman to be walking dangerous man or woman to be walking around in in any community or any around in in any community or any around in in any community or any government because hey, this this government because hey, this this government because hey, this this architecture this legal architecture of architecture this legal architecture of architecture this legal architecture of America doesn't hold me in. This this America doesn't hold me in. This this America doesn't hold me in. This this does. This book does. does. This book does. does. This book does. And so, we've we've knee-capped And so, we've we've knee-capped And so, we've we've knee-capped Christianity and we've put it on a shelf Christianity and we've put it on a shelf Christianity and we've put it on a shelf and we've consumerized consumerized and we've consumerized consumerized and we've consumerized consumerized we've you know, we've turned it into a a we've you know, we've turned it into a a we've you know, we've turned it into a a consumer product. consumer product. consumer product. And now we just have a bunch of And now we just have a bunch of And now we just have a bunch of knee-capped Christians walking around knee-capped Christians walking around knee-capped Christians walking around giving their 10% if that to a church to giving their 10% if that to a church to giving their 10% if that to a church to an institution that is not biblically an institution that is not biblically an institution that is not biblically sound. And then we can support sound. And then we can support sound. And then we can support nation-state of Israel and say, hey, nation-state of Israel and say, hey, nation-state of Israel and say, hey, I'm a Bible-believing Christian when at I'm a Bible-believing Christian when at I'm a Bible-believing Christian when at the end of the day like no, I believe in the end of the day like no, I believe in the end of the day like no, I believe in in what we've built. I believe in the in what we've built. I believe in the in what we've built. I believe in the institution we've built, but I don't institution we've built, but I don't institution we've built, but I don't necessarily believe this book. necessarily believe this book. necessarily believe this book. >> Well, that's a wrong turn if you >> Well, that's a wrong turn if you >> Well, that's a wrong turn if you arrive at that conclusion. So, how arrive at that conclusion. So, how arrive at that conclusion. So, how I mean, I always want to assume that I mean, I always want to assume that I mean, I always want to assume that people are employing what you called people are employing what you called people are employing what you called strategic ignorance. They they don't strategic ignorance. They they don't strategic ignorance. They they don't know because they don't want to know and know because they don't want to know and know because they don't want to know and therefore they're not therefore they're not therefore they're not honestly quite as guilty as someone who honestly quite as guilty as someone who honestly quite as guilty as someone who knows and does it anyway.

knows and does it anyway. knows and does it anyway. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But given that, how big is the economy >> But given that, how big is the economy >> But given that, how big is the economy around this question? Like I notice all around this question? Like I notice all around this question? Like I notice all these pastors going to Israel on these these pastors going to Israel on these these pastors going to Israel on these trips. I've known a lot of them who do trips. I've known a lot of them who do trips. I've known a lot of them who do that. Is that all paid for by that. Is that all paid for by that. Is that all paid for by donors or the government or who does donors or the government or who does donors or the government or who does >> there's an estimated Let me I want to >> there's an estimated Let me I want to >> there's an estimated Let me I want to make sure I I pronounce the name right. make sure I I pronounce the name right. make sure I I pronounce the name right. It is Where is it? SJ something. It's about Where is it? SJ something. It's about 320 million a year is dumped into this 320 million a year is dumped into this 320 million a year is dumped into this bucket to get to get pastors overseas. bucket to get to get pastors overseas. bucket to get to get pastors overseas. Oh, there we go. The International Oh, there we go. The International Oh, there we go. The International Fellowship of Christians and Jews Fellowship of Christians and Jews Fellowship of Christians and Jews generates about 315 million a year in generates about 315 million a year in generates about 315 million a year in individual donor giving. And what that individual donor giving. And what that individual donor giving. And what that does is it So, let's let's let's dissect does is it So, let's let's let's dissect does is it So, let's let's let's dissect that name for a second, right? that name for a second, right? that name for a second, right? International Fellowship of Christians International Fellowship of Christians International Fellowship of Christians and Jews. Okay, 315-ish million goes and Jews. Okay, 315-ish million goes and Jews. Okay, 315-ish million goes into that pool every year. You'd think into that pool every year. You'd think into that pool every year. You'd think it's to educate people on the historical it's to educate people on the historical it's to educate people on the historical sites, right? I'm a Christian, I'd love sites, right? I'm a Christian, I'd love sites, right? I'm a Christian, I'd love to see you to see you to see you >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, all all all these beautiful >> You know, all all all these beautiful >> You know, all all all these beautiful historical sites. I've been to Rome and historical sites. I've been to Rome and historical sites. I've been to Rome and hunched down in the prison where Paul hunched down in the prison where Paul hunched down in the prison where Paul was held. Like that You get to was held. Like that You get to was held. Like that You get to experience the stuff and you're like, experience the stuff and you're like, experience the stuff and you're like, "Wow, this is real." Like it You know, "Wow, this is real." Like it You know, "Wow, this is real." Like it You know, it happened. I can see Paul's journey it happened. I can see Paul's journey it happened. I can see Paul's journey and I can see the hill Christ died on and I can see the hill Christ died on and I can see the hill Christ died on and it's it's real powerful.

and it's it's real powerful. and it's it's real powerful. But that 315 million is going to border But that 315 million is going to border But that 315 million is going to border security. It's going to ambulances security. It's going to ambulances security. It's going to ambulances inside Israel. It's going to inside Israel. It's going to inside Israel. It's going to um um um >> Border security? >> Border security? >> Border security? >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's what Yeah. That's what Yeah. That's what >> Israeli border security? >> Israeli border security? >> Israeli border security? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, it it it says it on their website. So, it it it says it on their website. So, it it it says it on their website. This is where this money goes. So, when This is where this money goes. So, when This is where this money goes. So, when you think about this, this isn't this you think about this, this isn't this you think about this, this isn't this isn't an International Fellowship of isn't an International Fellowship of isn't an International Fellowship of Jews and Christians because if it was an Jews and Christians because if it was an Jews and Christians because if it was an International Fellowship of Jews and International Fellowship of Jews and International Fellowship of Jews and Christians, you'd care about the Christians, you'd care about the Christians, you'd care about the Christians in Gaza. Christians in Gaza. Christians in Gaza. >> Of course. >> Of course. >> Of course. >> about the Christians in Lebanon. You'd >> about the Christians in Lebanon. You'd >> about the Christians in Lebanon. You'd care, you know, you'd care about these care, you know, you'd care about these care, you know, you'd care about these Christians in these other parts of this Christians in these other parts of this Christians in these other parts of this region just being obliterated. region just being obliterated. region just being obliterated. >> by the government, yeah. >> by the government, yeah. >> by the government, yeah. >> But so, what this is is it's it's >> But so, what this is is it's it's >> But so, what this is is it's it's actually a fund that's just calcifying actually a fund that's just calcifying actually a fund that's just calcifying the nation-state of Israel and utilizing the nation-state of Israel and utilizing the nation-state of Israel and utilizing the historical sites as the rationale the historical sites as the rationale the historical sites as the rationale for this fund. for this fund. for this fund. >> But the money is going to the ongoing >> But the money is going to the ongoing >> But the money is going to the ongoing operations of the government of Israel? operations of the government of Israel? operations of the government of Israel? >> Part of it, yeah. >> Part of it, yeah. >> Part of it, yeah. And then what you're doing is you're And then what you're doing is you're And then what you're doing is you're bringing pastors over and saying, "Look bringing pastors over and saying, "Look bringing pastors over and saying, "Look at all these beautiful historical at all these beautiful historical at all these beautiful historical sites." sites." sites." Does that make sense? So, you're taking Does that make sense? So, you're taking Does that make sense? So, you're taking the faith and you're using the faith as the faith and you're using the faith as the faith and you're using the faith as the as the the cookie, so to speak, or the as the the cookie, so to speak, or the as the the cookie, so to speak, or the carrot to to explain the the carrot to to explain the the carrot to to explain the nation-state of Israel and their in nation-state of Israel and their in nation-state of Israel and their in their actions.

their actions. their actions. And you're using Christian donor money. And you're using Christian donor money. And you're using Christian donor money. That's 315 million from Christians, That's 315 million from Christians, That's 315 million from Christians, individual Christians individual Christians individual Christians that are giving generously to this fund that are giving generously to this fund that are giving generously to this fund with strategically ignorance with their with strategically ignorance with their with strategically ignorance with their ignorance, you know, with their What ignorance, you know, with their What ignorance, you know, with their What does the Bible talk about? Scales on the does the Bible talk about? Scales on the does the Bible talk about? Scales on the eyes, right? So, you can't see through eyes, right? So, you can't see through eyes, right? So, you can't see through your scales, but what you're actually your scales, but what you're actually your scales, but what you're actually funding is parts of this war mechanism. funding is parts of this war mechanism. funding is parts of this war mechanism. It's just like the LDS Church and and It's just like the LDS Church and and It's just like the LDS Church and and their investments in their investments in their investments in um um um you know, defense companies. Southern you know, defense companies. Southern you know, defense companies. Southern Baptist Convention, same thing. Baptist Convention, same thing. Baptist Convention, same thing. Guidestone is heavily invested in Guidestone is heavily invested in Guidestone is heavily invested in weaponry of war. weaponry of war. weaponry of war. >> Are you serious? >> Are you serious? >> Are you serious? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, we've we've created machines. We've So, we've we've created machines. We've So, we've we've created machines. We've created this this Christian machine, created this this Christian machine, created this this Christian machine, this apparatus, that funds what we this apparatus, that funds what we this apparatus, that funds what we think, ignorantly, is good-intentioned think, ignorantly, is good-intentioned think, ignorantly, is good-intentioned International Fellowship of Christians International Fellowship of Christians International Fellowship of Christians and Jews. But, no, what it's doing is and Jews. But, no, what it's doing is and Jews. But, no, what it's doing is it's calcifying a nation-state that that it's calcifying a nation-state that that it's calcifying a nation-state that that is bombing Christians in other parts of is bombing Christians in other parts of is bombing Christians in other parts of that region, killing them, and they're that region, killing them, and they're that region, killing them, and they're justifying it. And this money is going justifying it. And this money is going justifying it. And this money is going to those efforts. Part of Part of that to those efforts. Part of Part of that to those efforts. Part of Part of that money's going to those efforts. money's going to those efforts. money's going to those efforts. >> absolutely crazy.

>> absolutely crazy. >> absolutely crazy. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Christians ought to be safe in the Holy >> Christians ought to be safe in the Holy >> Christians ought to be safe in the Holy Land of all places, but they are not. Land of all places, but they are not. Land of all places, but they are not. Keep in mind, these are the descendants Keep in mind, these are the descendants Keep in mind, these are the descendants of the first converts, the first people of the first converts, the first people of the first converts, the first people who followed Jesus, people whose who followed Jesus, people whose who followed Jesus, people whose families have worshipped in the land families have worshipped in the land families have worshipped in the land Jesus walked for centuries, for Jesus walked for centuries, for Jesus walked for centuries, for thousands of years. And these same thousands of years. And these same thousands of years. And these same people are now facing enormous pressure people are now facing enormous pressure people are now facing enormous pressure to leave, fleeing their homes amid war to leave, fleeing their homes amid war to leave, fleeing their homes amid war and anti-Christian terrorism. and anti-Christian terrorism. and anti-Christian terrorism. Untold numbers of innocents are lost and Untold numbers of innocents are lost and Untold numbers of innocents are lost and without hope, fellow Christians. But, without hope, fellow Christians. But, without hope, fellow Christians. But, how do you support them? how do you support them? how do you support them? There are groups out there who claim to There are groups out there who claim to There are groups out there who claim to support them whose real agenda is to support them whose real agenda is to support them whose real agenda is to move them out of their actual homeland. move them out of their actual homeland. move them out of their actual homeland. We think that's wrong. We think that's We think that's wrong. We think that's We think that's wrong. We think that's evil, in fact. And so, we've looked far evil, in fact. And so, we've looked far evil, in fact. And so, we've looked far and wide to find a group that is and wide to find a group that is and wide to find a group that is actually supporting Christians [music] actually supporting Christians [music] actually supporting Christians [music] in the Middle East, and we found one. in the Middle East, and we found one. in the Middle East, and we found one. It's called the Vulnerable People It's called the Vulnerable People It's called the Vulnerable People Project, VPP. It's one of the very few Project, VPP. It's one of the very few Project, VPP. It's one of the very few groups consistently helping vulnerable groups consistently helping vulnerable groups consistently helping vulnerable Christians throughout the Holy Land. Christians throughout the Holy Land. Christians throughout the Holy Land. They deliver food and water to Christian They deliver food and water to Christian They deliver food and water to Christian communities trapped in Gaza, for communities trapped in Gaza, for communities trapped in Gaza, for example. They help rescue civilians.

example. They help rescue civilians. example. They help rescue civilians. They provide emergency aid to families They provide emergency aid to families They provide emergency aid to families who have nowhere else to turn. who have nowhere else to turn. who have nowhere else to turn. Today, they are helping Christian Today, they are helping Christian Today, they are helping Christian churches and families safely remain in churches and families safely remain in churches and families safely remain in the communities where their ancestors the communities where their ancestors the communities where their ancestors worshiped Jesus. worshiped Jesus. worshiped Jesus. There should be a lot of groups doing There should be a lot of groups doing There should be a lot of groups doing this, and trust us, we have looked for this, and trust us, we have looked for this, and trust us, we have looked for over a year now, and there aren't. over a year now, and there aren't. over a year now, and there aren't. But the Vulnerable People Project is But the Vulnerable People Project is But the Vulnerable People Project is doing exactly that, and their work makes doing exactly that, and their work makes doing exactly that, and their work makes an amazing difference in people's lives. an amazing difference in people's lives. an amazing difference in people's lives. A gift of just $33 helps provide a day A gift of just $33 helps provide a day A gift of just $33 helps provide a day of protection and support for the of protection and support for the of protection and support for the vulnerable Christians in the West Bank. vulnerable Christians in the West Bank. vulnerable Christians in the West Bank. Who's looking out for them? Nobody. Who's looking out for them? Nobody. Who's looking out for them? Nobody. They are. A monthly gift of $83 helps They are. A monthly gift of $83 helps They are. A monthly gift of $83 helps sustain that protection throughout the sustain that protection throughout the sustain that protection throughout the month. month. month. So, visit savewestbankchristians.com So, visit savewestbankchristians.com So, visit savewestbankchristians.com and stand with Christians in the land and stand with Christians in the land and stand with Christians in the land where Christianity began. That where Christianity began. That where Christianity began. That savewestbankchristians.com. savewestbankchristians.com. savewestbankchristians.com. We are proud We are proud We are proud to partner with them. Thank you. How to partner with them. Thank you. How to partner with them. Thank you. How many many many people who are involved in this know? people who are involved in this know? people who are involved in this know? Involved in this fund? Involved in this fund? Involved in this fund? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I I don't think I don't think any of >> I I don't think I don't think any of >> I I don't think I don't think any of them would would rationally sit here and them would would rationally sit here and them would would rationally sit here and say, "Oh, I I know about that."

say, "Oh, I I know about that." say, "Oh, I I know about that." You know? No, no, no, we want to get our You know? No, no, no, we want to get our You know? No, no, no, we want to get our pastor over to Israel to experience the pastor over to Israel to experience the pastor over to Israel to experience the historical sites, Nathan. historical sites, Nathan. historical sites, Nathan. Okay. Cool. Okay. Cool. Okay. Cool. That that That's That's not bad. That that That's That's not bad. That that That's That's not bad. Right? But what you don't realize is Right? But what you don't realize is Right? But what you don't realize is you're funding security on the border. you're funding security on the border. you're funding security on the border. You're funding, which which I think is You're funding, which which I think is You're funding, which which I think is great, ambulances when a bomb comes over great, ambulances when a bomb comes over great, ambulances when a bomb comes over into Israel, but you should also be into Israel, but you should also be into Israel, but you should also be funding ambulances when a bomb goes into funding ambulances when a bomb goes into funding ambulances when a bomb goes into Gaza. Gaza. Gaza. If that's your mission. If that's your mission. If that's your mission. >> Yeah, and you certainly shouldn't be >> Yeah, and you certainly shouldn't be >> Yeah, and you certainly shouldn't be funding bombs into Gaza. funding bombs into Gaza. funding bombs into Gaza. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Which is what in effect you're doing, >> Which is what in effect you're doing, >> Which is what in effect you're doing, cuz you're freeing up cuz you're freeing up cuz you're freeing up >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> those resources. Wow, that is really um >> those resources. Wow, that is really um >> those resources. Wow, that is really um So, now there is in part thanks to your So, now there is in part thanks to your So, now there is in part thanks to your efforts efforts efforts an awareness of a lot of this in a way an awareness of a lot of this in a way an awareness of a lot of this in a way that there wasn't a couple of years ago. that there wasn't a couple of years ago. that there wasn't a couple of years ago. Like there are a lot of people, Like there are a lot of people, Like there are a lot of people, including we the Pharaoh report said it, including we the Pharaoh report said it, including we the Pharaoh report said it, there are a lot of even evangelicals who there are a lot of even evangelicals who there are a lot of even evangelicals who are skeptical suddenly about are skeptical suddenly about are skeptical suddenly about whether it's a good idea to support whether it's a good idea to support whether it's a good idea to support Israel. What are Israel. What are Israel. What are pastors like this Are they getting pastors like this Are they getting pastors like this Are they getting pushed back? Like what's pushed back? Like what's pushed back? Like what's their experience? their experience? their experience? >> They're kind of >> They're kind of >> They're kind of a lot of these past So, this this this a lot of these past So, this this this a lot of these past So, this this this fire doc a lot of these churches are fire doc a lot of these churches are fire doc a lot of these churches are mega churches. They went after the they mega churches. They went after the they mega churches. They went after the they they geofence the big boys, right?

they geofence the big boys, right? they geofence the big boys, right? Because big like if if you geofence a Because big like if if you geofence a Because big like if if you geofence a small to rural church in Pennsylvania small to rural church in Pennsylvania small to rural church in Pennsylvania that has 75 members, what's what's the that has 75 members, what's what's the that has 75 members, what's what's the point of that? No, I want to geofence a point of that? No, I want to geofence a point of that? No, I want to geofence a church that has 7,500 members, 10,000 church that has 7,500 members, 10,000 church that has 7,500 members, 10,000 members. And so these guys are already members. And so these guys are already members. And so these guys are already big influencers in regards to their big influencers in regards to their big influencers in regards to their their church and then in regards to the their church and then in regards to the their church and then in regards to the social media sphere. So they just like social media sphere. So they just like social media sphere. So they just like calcify together. calcify together. calcify together. You know, you have you have groups of You know, you have you have groups of You know, you have you have groups of them now just them now just them now just come going on podcasts sitting doing the come going on podcasts sitting doing the come going on podcasts sitting doing the same thing we are. same thing we are. same thing we are. >> Is that true? >> Is that true? >> Is that true? >> Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Defending these positions? >> Defending these positions? >> Defending these positions? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, um his name is Jack Hibbs. He was Yeah, um his name is Jack Hibbs. He was Yeah, um his name is Jack Hibbs. He was on a podcast the other day on a podcast the other day on a podcast the other day um and he said uh you know, Israel was um and he said uh you know, Israel was um and he said uh you know, Israel was created created in a day and there's created created in a day and there's created created in a day and there's prophetic words in the Bible that say prophetic words in the Bible that say prophetic words in the Bible that say that. Well, no, they signed the that. Well, no, they signed the that. Well, no, they signed the documents in a day, documents in a day, documents in a day, but the nation-state of Israel was but the nation-state of Israel was but the nation-state of Israel was decades in coming. decades in coming. decades in coming. And so it does that make sense? They And so it does that make sense? They And so it does that make sense? They just take they'll take a scripture out just take they'll take a scripture out just take they'll take a scripture out of context and apply it to the of context and apply it to the of context and apply it to the nation-state and then everybody will nation-state and then everybody will nation-state and then everybody will take that same sound bite similar to take that same sound bite similar to take that same sound bite similar to what I said with you last that what I said with you last that what I said with you last that Christianity is more of a socialist Christianity is more of a socialist Christianity is more of a socialist construct than a capitalist construct.

construct than a capitalist construct. construct than a capitalist construct. Everybody goes, oh, Nathan's a Everybody goes, oh, Nathan's a Everybody goes, oh, Nathan's a socialist, Tucker had a socialist on, socialist, Tucker had a socialist on, socialist, Tucker had a socialist on, he's a communist. Same thing, you take he's a communist. Same thing, you take he's a communist. Same thing, you take three or four words and you can create three or four words and you can create three or four words and you can create whatever, you know, whatever whatever, you know, whatever whatever, you know, whatever conversation you want around conversation you want around conversation you want around >> a socialist? >> a socialist? >> a socialist? >> I am not a socialist, no. >> I am not a socialist, no. >> I am not a socialist, no. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Um but it's all part of the propaganda >> Um but it's all part of the propaganda >> Um but it's all part of the propaganda machine. I mean, they don't machine. I mean, they don't machine. I mean, they don't >> For sure. >> For sure. >> For sure. >> Right. So, but like someone like Jack >> Right. So, but like someone like Jack >> Right. So, but like someone like Jack Hibbs or not you know, to call him out Hibbs or not you know, to call him out Hibbs or not you know, to call him out by name though by name though by name though uh uh uh he deserves it, but um he deserves it, but um he deserves it, but um >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> sorry, excuse me. Trying to stay >> sorry, excuse me. Trying to stay >> sorry, excuse me. Trying to stay Christian. Um Christian. Um Christian. Um does he get any pushback? Or do do or does he get any pushback? Or do do or does he get any pushback? Or do do or another way to ask would be do pastors another way to ask would be do pastors another way to ask would be do pastors like that have growing churches or like that have growing churches or like that have growing churches or shrinking churches? Like is this is shrinking churches? Like is this is shrinking churches? Like is this is Christian Zionism in retreat or is it Christian Zionism in retreat or is it Christian Zionism in retreat or is it expanding? expanding? expanding? >> I I can't speak empirically on that, but >> I I can't speak empirically on that, but >> I I can't speak empirically on that, but I would say it's retreating from from I would say it's retreating from from I would say it's retreating from from from just my my sphere of influence. from just my my sphere of influence. from just my my sphere of influence. You know, a lot of these churches now You know, a lot of these churches now You know, a lot of these churches now are their congregation shrinking and are their congregation shrinking and are their congregation shrinking and they have these huge buildings. So what they have these huge buildings. So what they have these huge buildings. So what they're doing is they're putting up they're doing is they're putting up they're doing is they're putting up curtains about halfway through the pews curtains about halfway through the pews curtains about halfway through the pews and and they shove everybody to the and and they shove everybody to the and and they shove everybody to the front so people can't sit in the back front so people can't sit in the back front so people can't sit in the back anymore. So they're starting to stack anymore. So they're starting to stack anymore. So they're starting to stack their churches if that makes sense and their churches if that makes sense and their churches if that makes sense and they look full but they're really at 20 they look full but they're really at 20 they look full but they're really at 20 30% capacity.

30% capacity. 30% capacity. >> Really? >> Really? >> Really? >> Mhm. And then what they do a lot of them >> Mhm. And then what they do a lot of them >> Mhm. And then what they do a lot of them do is on their social programs like we do is on their social programs like we do is on their social programs like we have we have a solid online presence. We have we have a solid online presence. We have we have a solid online presence. We will never delete a comment. We will will never delete a comment. We will will never delete a comment. We will never block someone unless they're never block someone unless they're never block someone unless they're actually threatening someone. But what actually threatening someone. But what actually threatening someone. But what these guys do a lot of times is they'll these guys do a lot of times is they'll these guys do a lot of times is they'll curate their comments. So they'll block curate their comments. So they'll block curate their comments. So they'll block us or block our followers and just us or block our followers and just us or block our followers and just delete any comment that has a negative delete any comment that has a negative delete any comment that has a negative you know, negative pushback on what you know, negative pushback on what you know, negative pushback on what they're saying. And so when you go on on they're saying. And so when you go on on they're saying. And so when you go on on some of these pastors Instagrams it's some of these pastors Instagrams it's some of these pastors Instagrams it's just nothing but hearts and loves and just nothing but hearts and loves and just nothing but hearts and loves and you're 100% accurate pastor lovely you're 100% accurate pastor lovely you're 100% accurate pastor lovely lovely lovely. lovely lovely. lovely lovely. But it's cuz they've just curated the But it's cuz they've just curated the But it's cuz they've just curated the content. And so Christianity content. And so Christianity content. And so Christianity institutional Christianity and these big institutional Christianity and these big institutional Christianity and these big organizations is just a curated organizations is just a curated organizations is just a curated business set on top of the gospel. And business set on top of the gospel. And business set on top of the gospel. And and so when I look at there especially and so when I look at there especially and so when I look at there especially Jack Hibbs and these other guys who are Jack Hibbs and these other guys who are Jack Hibbs and these other guys who are very pro-Zionist in regards to their very pro-Zionist in regards to their very pro-Zionist in regards to their agenda agenda agenda most of their comments are just curated most of their comments are just curated most of their comments are just curated and so that that always makes me smile and so that that always makes me smile and so that that always makes me smile because because because >> What does Jack Hibbs have a a >> What does Jack Hibbs have a a >> What does Jack Hibbs have a a congregation? Is there like a church congregation? Is there like a church congregation? Is there like a church where he's preaching every Sunday?

where he's preaching every Sunday? where he's preaching every Sunday? >> Yeah, he's a preacher. Yeah. >> Yeah, he's a preacher. Yeah. >> Yeah, he's a preacher. Yeah. >> And is it a growing church do you know? >> And is it a growing church do you know? >> And is it a growing church do you know? >> I honestly I haven't done much research >> I honestly I haven't done much research >> I honestly I haven't done much research on Jack Hibbs. I just I just smile on Jack Hibbs. I just I just smile on Jack Hibbs. I just I just smile whenever I see his his social content. whenever I see his his social content. whenever I see his his social content. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] We There's There's a lot of pastors out We There's There's a lot of pastors out We There's There's a lot of pastors out here Tucker. There's 400,000 churches in here Tucker. There's 400,000 churches in here Tucker. There's 400,000 churches in the US and so the US and so the US and so unfortunately I can't we can't look at unfortunately I can't we can't look at unfortunately I can't we can't look at them all. But what we're trying to do is them all. But what we're trying to do is them all. But what we're trying to do is we're we're looking at patterns right? we're we're looking at patterns right? we're we're looking at patterns right? We're We're We're recently someone sent me a book and and recently someone sent me a book and and recently someone sent me a book and and in the book in the book in the book they defined my character type and yours they defined my character type and yours they defined my character type and yours as an auditor basically. Like, you guys as an auditor basically. Like, you guys as an auditor basically. Like, you guys are here to audit the systems we've are here to audit the systems we've are here to audit the systems we've built, whether that be our government, built, whether that be our government, built, whether that be our government, whether that be our our religious whether that be our our religious whether that be our our religious institutions, and we're here to say, institutions, and we're here to say, institutions, and we're here to say, "Hey, what part of these systems isn't "Hey, what part of these systems isn't "Hey, what part of these systems isn't aligning with with the ethos underneath aligning with with the ethos underneath aligning with with the ethos underneath it?" So, in Christianity, what part of it?" So, in Christianity, what part of it?" So, in Christianity, what part of the machine that we've built, the the machine that we've built, the the machine that we've built, the tradition, isn't aligning with tradition, isn't aligning with tradition, isn't aligning with scripture? scripture? scripture? And the nation-state is one of those. And the nation-state is one of those. And the nation-state is one of those. You know, tithe is one of those. Running You know, tithe is one of those. Running You know, tithe is one of those. Running organizations with no external organizations with no external organizations with no external accountability where millions funnels in accountability where millions funnels in accountability where millions funnels in is one of those. None of that is is is one of those. None of that is is is one of those. None of that is is inherently biblical or Christ-like, inherently biblical or Christ-like, inherently biblical or Christ-like, right? right? right? >> Tithing is not >> Tithing is not >> Tithing is not scriptural.

scriptural. scriptural. >> Tithing Tithing is not scriptural for a >> Tithing Tithing is not scriptural for a >> Tithing Tithing is not scriptural for a modern-day Christian. modern-day Christian. modern-day Christian. >> Huh. >> Huh. >> Huh. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, where does the notion come from? >> So, where does the notion come from? >> So, where does the notion come from? >> Um it's it's actually only flared back >> Um it's it's actually only flared back >> Um it's it's actually only flared back in the last couple hundred years. So, in the last couple hundred years. So, in the last couple hundred years. So, tithing was not a thing. You can go tithing was not a thing. You can go tithing was not a thing. You can go through the the the history of through the the the history of through the the the history of Christianity from Christ from Christ on, Christianity from Christ from Christ on, Christianity from Christ from Christ on, and Christians weren't tithing. and Christians weren't tithing. and Christians weren't tithing. The And tithe literally means a tenth. The And tithe literally means a tenth. The And tithe literally means a tenth. Translates to a tenth. Translates to a tenth. Translates to a tenth. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And so, most, not all, but a lot of >> And so, most, not all, but a lot of >> And so, most, not all, but a lot of chur- churches today and pastors today chur- churches today and pastors today chur- churches today and pastors today present that hey, you need to tithe. present that hey, you need to tithe. present that hey, you need to tithe. Give us 10% of your revenue because the Give us 10% of your revenue because the Give us 10% of your revenue because the Bible says to tithe. Well, the Old Bible says to tithe. Well, the Old Bible says to tithe. Well, the Old Testament, the Mosaic laws say to tithe, Testament, the Mosaic laws say to tithe, Testament, the Mosaic laws say to tithe, but what's funny is there's not one but what's funny is there's not one but what's funny is there's not one tithe in the Old Testament, there's tithe in the Old Testament, there's tithe in the Old Testament, there's three. three. three. So, if a tenth mean or if tithe means a So, if a tenth mean or if tithe means a So, if a tenth mean or if tithe means a tenth, technically you're supposed to be tenth, technically you're supposed to be tenth, technically you're supposed to be being paying three tenths. Now, the being paying three tenths. Now, the being paying three tenths. Now, the difference is the third tithe was only difference is the third tithe was only difference is the third tithe was only once every three years. once every three years. once every three years. So, there's three tithes. So, if you're So, there's three tithes. So, if you're So, there's three tithes. So, if you're a pastor out there preaching tithe, you a pastor out there preaching tithe, you a pastor out there preaching tithe, you need to be preaching 23.3%.

from your congregation, not 10%, if you from your congregation, not 10%, if you want to lean on the biblical tithe. want to lean on the biblical tithe. want to lean on the biblical tithe. But so, when you look at the tithe laws, But so, when you look at the tithe laws, But so, when you look at the tithe laws, Israel of the Bible is is a theocracy. Israel of the Bible is is a theocracy. Israel of the Bible is is a theocracy. So, those tithes were actually a form of So, those tithes were actually a form of So, those tithes were actually a form of taxation. It's what kept up government taxation. It's what kept up government taxation. It's what kept up government and religion. It was combined. Today, and religion. It was combined. Today, and religion. It was combined. Today, we're not a theocracy. We're we're a we're not a theocracy. We're we're a we're not a theocracy. We're we're a democratic republic. So, what the church democratic republic. So, what the church democratic republic. So, what the church has done is the recent church, the has done is the recent church, the has done is the recent church, the modern church in the last couple hundred modern church in the last couple hundred modern church in the last couple hundred years, is they needed to figure out a years, is they needed to figure out a years, is they needed to figure out a revenue stream. revenue stream. revenue stream. So, I'll get I'll say with good So, I'll get I'll say with good So, I'll get I'll say with good intentions, these pastors looked to the intentions, these pastors looked to the intentions, these pastors looked to the old covenant, the Old Testament, and old covenant, the Old Testament, and old covenant, the Old Testament, and said, "Hey, said, "Hey, said, "Hey, like the Levites were asking for 10% or like the Levites were asking for 10% or like the Levites were asking for 10% or demanding 10% based off based off the demanding 10% based off based off the demanding 10% based off based off the Mosaic Law, so we should ask for 10%." Mosaic Law, so we should ask for 10%." Mosaic Law, so we should ask for 10%." And it baked in this legalistic demand And it baked in this legalistic demand And it baked in this legalistic demand from your congregation. And then, hey, from your congregation. And then, hey, from your congregation. And then, hey, if you don't tithe, Tucker to me, you're if you don't tithe, Tucker to me, you're if you don't tithe, Tucker to me, you're a bad boy. The Bible says to tithe. But, a bad boy. The Bible says to tithe. But, a bad boy. The Bible says to tithe. But, when you look at the New Testament, when you look at the New Testament, when you look at the New Testament, remember Paul remember Paul remember Paul was a Pharisees' Pharisee. He was the was a Pharisees' Pharisee. He was the was a Pharisees' Pharisee. He was the man who knew the law better than man who knew the law better than man who knew the law better than anybody. So, Paul wrote a bulk of the anybody. So, Paul wrote a bulk of the anybody. So, Paul wrote a bulk of the modern New Testament. So, if Paul modern New Testament. So, if Paul modern New Testament. So, if Paul expected you to tithe, you better expected you to tithe, you better expected you to tithe, you better believe he would have said in his believe he would have said in his believe he would have said in his epistles, "Hey, Tucker, you're going to epistles, "Hey, Tucker, you're going to epistles, "Hey, Tucker, you're going to tithe to your body, and then we're going tithe to your body, and then we're going tithe to your body, and then we're going to distribute it." He didn't say that.

to distribute it." He didn't say that. to distribute it." He didn't say that. Christ never said that. Instead, it was Christ never said that. Instead, it was Christ never said that. Instead, it was free will generosity. So, Tucker, you're free will generosity. So, Tucker, you're free will generosity. So, Tucker, you're going to give going to give going to give from the desire and passion of your from the desire and passion of your from the desire and passion of your heart. And you're not going to know what heart. And you're not going to know what heart. And you're not going to know what your left hand is doing or your right your left hand is doing or your right your left hand is doing or your right hand is doing because we don't want you hand is doing because we don't want you hand is doing because we don't want you to basically build systems on top of to basically build systems on top of to basically build systems on top of this generosity. And the crazy part this generosity. And the crazy part this generosity. And the crazy part about the New Testament generosity is about the New Testament generosity is about the New Testament generosity is when when these early churches would when when these early churches would when when these early churches would pool resources, pool resources, pool resources, it would always go to poorer gatherings, it would always go to poorer gatherings, it would always go to poorer gatherings, to poorer communities. They weren't to poorer communities. They weren't to poorer communities. They weren't insulating themselves and building insulating themselves and building insulating themselves and building corporations, they were just corporations, they were just corporations, they were just distributing it distributing it distributing it wherever there was a need. wherever there was a need. wherever there was a need. And so, what the tithe has done And so, what the tithe has done And so, what the tithe has done is in the last 200 years, is it's given is in the last 200 years, is it's given is in the last 200 years, is it's given us a fixed revenue stream to an us a fixed revenue stream to an us a fixed revenue stream to an institution, to a tradition we've built institution, to a tradition we've built institution, to a tradition we've built on top of Christ. And now that we've on top of Christ. And now that we've on top of Christ. And now that we've been taught we've been I've been taught been taught we've been I've been taught been taught we've been I've been taught I was taught tithing from childhood. Now I was taught tithing from childhood. Now I was taught tithing from childhood. Now that we've been taught this tithing that we've been taught this tithing that we've been taught this tithing model, they can't it'd be really bad for model, they can't it'd be really bad for model, they can't it'd be really bad for them to go, "Hey, actually the tithe them to go, "Hey, actually the tithe them to go, "Hey, actually the tithe really isn't isn't biblically accurate.

really isn't isn't biblically accurate. really isn't isn't biblically accurate. We need you we need you just to be We need you we need you just to be We need you we need you just to be generous. And here this is a fun one. generous. And here this is a fun one. generous. And here this is a fun one. Or it's not fun. It's very sad. Um Or it's not fun. It's very sad. Um Or it's not fun. It's very sad. Um someone someone sent me this someone someone sent me this someone someone sent me this um um um and it's a it's a slip and it's a it's a slip and it's a it's a slip that a child brought home that a child brought home that a child brought home um and so this was going to a uh uh um and so this was going to a uh uh um and so this was going to a uh uh he was I think that the child was he was I think that the child was he was I think that the child was between 10 or 14 years old and this is between 10 or 14 years old and this is between 10 or 14 years old and this is what they were taught in their in their what they were taught in their in their what they were taught in their in their youth group. My commitment, I am youth group. My commitment, I am youth group. My commitment, I am expanding my generosity to multiply by expanding my generosity to multiply by expanding my generosity to multiply by committing to the following over the committing to the following over the committing to the following over the next year. So Tucker, you're a next year. So Tucker, you're a next year. So Tucker, you're a 12-year-old boy, ready? 12-year-old boy, ready? 12-year-old boy, ready? You're going to tithe, Tucker, You're going to tithe, Tucker, You're going to tithe, Tucker, 10% from your allowance. 10% from your allowance. 10% from your allowance. This is on the sheet, ready? You're This is on the sheet, ready? You're This is on the sheet, ready? You're going to give a percentage of your going to give a percentage of your going to give a percentage of your birthday money or Christmas money to the birthday money or Christmas money to the birthday money or Christmas money to the church. church. church. You're going to earn money, yard work, You're going to earn money, yard work, You're going to earn money, yard work, etc. And specifically, you're going to etc. And specifically, you're going to etc. And specifically, you're going to do that for multiplication. And then do that for multiplication. And then do that for multiplication. And then here's the other ready? You're going to here's the other ready? You're going to here's the other ready? You're going to sell some of your electronics. You're sell some of your electronics. You're sell some of your electronics. You're going to take clothes to a resale shop going to take clothes to a resale shop going to take clothes to a resale shop and you're going to give a portion of and you're going to give a portion of and you're going to give a portion of your savings to the church. This went to your savings to the church. This went to your savings to the church. This went to a little kid and at the bottom, you're a little kid and at the bottom, you're a little kid and at the bottom, you're going to add it all up and tell this going to add it all up and tell this going to add it all up and tell this church what your total commitment is.

church what your total commitment is. church what your total commitment is. >> In writing. >> In writing. >> In writing. >> In writing. >> In writing. >> In writing. That went to a child. >> That is wild. >> That is wild. >> Where is any of that scrip- scriptural? >> Where is any of that scrip- scriptural? >> Where is any of that scrip- scriptural? >> What can you do to monitor important >> What can you do to monitor important >> What can you do to monitor important parts of your life that you can't always parts of your life that you can't always parts of your life that you can't always keep your eyes on? Things like the keep your eyes on? Things like the keep your eyes on? Things like the [music] far corners of a job site or [music] far corners of a job site or [music] far corners of a job site or ranch or let's say you've got a boat ranch or let's say you've got a boat ranch or let's say you've got a boat dock somewhere and you can't check on it dock somewhere and you can't check on it dock somewhere and you can't check on it every day. Cellular security cameras every day. Cellular security cameras every day. Cellular security cameras from Defend are the answer. These from Defend are the answer. These from Defend are the answer. These cameras are very easy to install. No cameras are very easy to install. No cameras are very easy to install. No Wi-Fi required, no complex setup Wi-Fi required, no complex setup Wi-Fi required, no complex setup process. [music] You don't need to be a process. [music] You don't need to be a process. [music] You don't need to be a master electrician to do it, no running master electrician to do it, no running master electrician to do it, no running wires all over the place. You just mount wires all over the place. You just mount wires all over the place. You just mount the camera, turn it on and automatically the camera, turn it on and automatically the camera, turn it on and automatically connects to the strongest available connects to the strongest available connects to the strongest available cellular signal and starts sending cellular signal and starts sending cellular signal and starts sending photos and videos directly to your photos and videos directly to your photos and videos directly to your phone. You can be across the country. phone. You can be across the country. phone. You can be across the country. You never have to wonder what is You never have to wonder what is You never have to wonder what is happening where you live. You've got happening where you live. You've got happening where you live. You've got total security all the time. It's a gate total security all the time. It's a gate total security all the time. It's a gate entrance, a construction site, your entrance, a construction site, your entrance, a construction site, your barn, cabin, anything else you need to barn, cabin, anything else you need to barn, cabin, anything else you need to keep your eye on when you're gone, this keep your eye on when you're gone, this keep your eye on when you're gone, this will do it for you. And unlike a lot of will do it for you. And unlike a lot of will do it for you. And unlike a lot of security systems, this is affordable.

security systems, this is affordable. security systems, this is affordable. Peace of mind for an honest price. Peace of mind for an honest price. Peace of mind for an honest price. defendsellcam.com defendsellcam.com defendsellcam.com is the address. Go there, see for is the address. Go there, see for is the address. Go there, see for yourself. defendsellcam.com. yourself. defendsellcam.com. yourself. defendsellcam.com. If you've got a signal, you've got If you've got a signal, you've got If you've got a signal, you've got 24-hour security. 24-hour security. 24-hour security. >> So, >> So, >> So, what do the churches do with the money? what do the churches do with the money? what do the churches do with the money? Well, they Well, they Well, they they'll say they give some of it away, they'll say they give some of it away, they'll say they give some of it away, but statistically based off the but statistically based off the but statistically based off the financial financial financial by the financial data about um 70% just by the financial data about um 70% just by the financial data about um 70% just goes to buildings and salaries, and less goes to buildings and salaries, and less goes to buildings and salaries, and less than six six cents of every dollar ever than six six cents of every dollar ever than six six cents of every dollar ever leaves the institutional walls now. leaves the institutional walls now. leaves the institutional walls now. And so, what we've built is just And so, what we've built is just And so, what we've built is just traditions like it takes me back to the traditions like it takes me back to the traditions like it takes me back to the story of Christ in the temple. He you story of Christ in the temple. He you story of Christ in the temple. He you know, when he's when he's whipping and know, when he's when he's whipping and know, when he's when he's whipping and he said, "You've turned my father's he said, "You've turned my father's he said, "You've turned my father's house into a robbers' den." We've built house into a robbers' den." We've built house into a robbers' den." We've built institutions on top of the teachings of institutions on top of the teachings of institutions on top of the teachings of Christ, Christ, Christ, and that institution now is so hungry and that institution now is so hungry and that institution now is so hungry financially that it just pulls all financially that it just pulls all financially that it just pulls all resources in to the point where where resources in to the point where where resources in to the point where where you're telling kids to sell their you're telling kids to sell their you're telling kids to sell their electronics and give us the money. Hey, electronics and give us the money. Hey, electronics and give us the money. Hey, actually no, take your clothes actually no, take your clothes actually no, take your clothes to a thrift store and then bring us that to a thrift store and then bring us that to a thrift store and then bring us that money. Hey, you know, give a portion of money. Hey, you know, give a portion of money. Hey, you know, give a portion of your savings to us as well.

your savings to us as well. your savings to us as well. Like you're you're you're you're Like you're you're you're you're Like you're you're you're you're >> You're the middle man. >> You're the middle man. >> You're the middle man. >> You're indoctrinating a child into this >> You're indoctrinating a child into this >> You're indoctrinating a child into this thinking. thinking. thinking. And none of that is is in the New And none of that is is in the New And none of that is is in the New Testament. Testament. Testament. >> Well, Jesus doesn't say sell everything >> Well, Jesus doesn't say sell everything >> Well, Jesus doesn't say sell everything you have and give it to the church. He you have and give it to the church. He you have and give it to the church. He says give it to the poor. says give it to the poor. says give it to the poor. >> Poor. Correct. So, what we've done is we've just built So, what we've done is we've just built businesses, unaccountable, businesses, unaccountable, businesses, unaccountable, non-transparent businesses on the top of non-transparent businesses on the top of non-transparent businesses on the top of Christ, Christ, Christ, and then on the top of the scriptures. and then on the top of the scriptures. and then on the top of the scriptures. And when you look at what the church was And when you look at what the church was And when you look at what the church was in America, the church was actually in America, the church was actually in America, the church was actually the the the um the institution that pushed back um the institution that pushed back um the institution that pushed back against government encroachment. It against government encroachment. It against government encroachment. It pushed back against human greed. And it pushed back against human greed. And it pushed back against human greed. And it And it And it did, rightfully so. It was And it And it did, rightfully so. It was And it And it did, rightfully so. It was the community It was like the the the community It was like the the the community It was like the the community think tank, for lack of a community think tank, for lack of a community think tank, for lack of a better term. And this is We'll go to the better term. And this is We'll go to the better term. And this is We'll go to the socialist comment, right? So, I said socialist comment, right? So, I said socialist comment, right? So, I said last time Christianity is more socialist last time Christianity is more socialist last time Christianity is more socialist than capitalistic. America is our than capitalistic. America is our than capitalistic. America is our economy our economy is built on economy our economy is built on economy our economy is built on capitalism. capitalism. capitalism. A great social concept cuz it lifts A great social concept cuz it lifts A great social concept cuz it lifts people in in in nations out of poverty, people in in in nations out of poverty, people in in in nations out of poverty, but there is that marginalized that's but there is that marginalized that's but there is that marginalized that's left behind. Christianity is in that left behind. Christianity is in that left behind. Christianity is in that marginalized.

marginalized. marginalized. That's why we pool our resources and That's why we pool our resources and That's why we pool our resources and give to the poor. give to the poor. give to the poor. And so, And so, And so, Christianity is not about ownership. Christianity is not about ownership. Christianity is not about ownership. Christianity is not about um growth and Christianity is not about um growth and Christianity is not about um growth and profits at all costs. Christianity is profits at all costs. Christianity is profits at all costs. Christianity is the opposite. the opposite. the opposite. And so, Christianity is is the hardline And so, Christianity is is the hardline And so, Christianity is is the hardline against power and against authority, but against power and against authority, but against power and against authority, but what's happened is we've taken those what's happened is we've taken those what's happened is we've taken those structures, those capitalistic structures, those capitalistic structures, those capitalistic structures, and brought it into the structures, and brought it into the structures, and brought it into the church. church. church. And brought it into an institution that And brought it into an institution that And brought it into an institution that is antithetical to that. And so now, the is antithetical to that. And so now, the is antithetical to that. And so now, the institutional church has been co-opted institutional church has been co-opted institutional church has been co-opted by the very mechanisms it's supposed to by the very mechanisms it's supposed to by the very mechanisms it's supposed to push against. push against. push against. All in the name of Christ. So, hey, All in the name of Christ. So, hey, All in the name of Christ. So, hey, bring more money. Hey, and it's been bring more money. Hey, and it's been bring more money. Hey, and it's been It's been co-opted by the politic now, It's been co-opted by the politic now, It's been co-opted by the politic now, too. too. too. And so, the church, the beautiful body And so, the church, the beautiful body And so, the church, the beautiful body of Christ, of Christ, of Christ, is now a um is now a um is now a um an MLM a multi-level marketing scheme, an MLM a multi-level marketing scheme, an MLM a multi-level marketing scheme, for lack of a better term. It's a for lack of a better term. It's a for lack of a better term. It's a franchise. You know, and you could see franchise. You know, and you could see franchise. You know, and you could see it play out. You know, a lot of a lot of it play out. You know, a lot of a lot of it play out. You know, a lot of a lot of as denominations die, evangelical as denominations die, evangelical as denominations die, evangelical non-denominational churches are non-denominational churches are non-denominational churches are flourishing. And so, what's happening is flourishing. And so, what's happening is flourishing. And so, what's happening is now they're building satellite campuses.

now they're building satellite campuses. now they're building satellite campuses. So, it's like we're going to build as So, it's like we're going to build as So, it's like we're going to build as many campuses as possible. We're going many campuses as possible. We're going many campuses as possible. We're going to get you guys to turn and burn, so to get you guys to turn and burn, so to get you guys to turn and burn, so you're going to come in, you have an you're going to come in, you have an you're going to come in, you have an hour and a half, grab a coffee, grab a hour and a half, grab a coffee, grab a hour and a half, grab a coffee, grab a donut, we're going to sing some donut, we're going to sing some donut, we're going to sing some emotional songs, we're going to give you emotional songs, we're going to give you emotional songs, we're going to give you some a couple scripture verses, and then some a couple scripture verses, and then some a couple scripture verses, and then get out. We got to do it again. And so get out. We got to do it again. And so get out. We got to do it again. And so we franchised faith and we haven't we franchised faith and we haven't we franchised faith and we haven't franchised it in a good way either I franchised it in a good way either I franchised it in a good way either I feel. We franchised it in like a fast feel. We franchised it in like a fast feel. We franchised it in like a fast food way. Right? It's like the cheapest, food way. Right? It's like the cheapest, food way. Right? It's like the cheapest, fastest, quickest way to turn and burn fastest, quickest way to turn and burn fastest, quickest way to turn and burn this thing. And so what we've done is this thing. And so what we've done is this thing. And so what we've done is we've commoditized Christianity when it we've commoditized Christianity when it we've commoditized Christianity when it wasn't supposed to be commoditized. And wasn't supposed to be commoditized. And wasn't supposed to be commoditized. And now we've tribal we it's tribalism too. now we've tribal we it's tribalism too. now we've tribal we it's tribalism too. Now we're either right or left. So now Now we're either right or left. So now Now we're either right or left. So now it's it's it's you can see the politic grabbing on to you can see the politic grabbing on to you can see the politic grabbing on to it and weaponizing it as well. it and weaponizing it as well. it and weaponizing it as well. >> Are most churches pretty open about >> Are most churches pretty open about >> Are most churches pretty open about their politics now? their politics now? their politics now? >> Oh, very. Yeah. >> Oh, very. Yeah. >> Oh, very. Yeah. >> Really? >> Really? >> Really? >> Yeah, very. >> Yeah, very. >> Yeah, very. Well, the Johnson Amendment was supposed Well, the Johnson Amendment was supposed Well, the Johnson Amendment was supposed to like keep that at bay, but Trump to like keep that at bay, but Trump to like keep that at bay, but Trump basically wiped the Johnson Amendment basically wiped the Johnson Amendment basically wiped the Johnson Amendment out. out. out. >> What was the Johnson Amendment? >> What was the Johnson Amendment? >> What was the Johnson Amendment? >> The Johnson Amendment was you couldn't >> The Johnson Amendment was you couldn't >> The Johnson Amendment was you couldn't um um um I don't have the exact language, but you I don't have the exact language, but you I don't have the exact language, but you couldn't advocate for specific couldn't advocate for specific couldn't advocate for specific candidates from the pulpit.

candidates from the pulpit. candidates from the pulpit. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And so and and you'd get in trouble. You >> And so and and you'd get in trouble. You >> And so and and you'd get in trouble. You could potentially lose your tax exempt could potentially lose your tax exempt could potentially lose your tax exempt status if you did that. Well, Trump status if you did that. Well, Trump status if you did that. Well, Trump basically wiped that out. So what's basically wiped that out. So what's basically wiped that out. So what's happened is you literally have pastors happened is you literally have pastors happened is you literally have pastors from the pulpit and I and I've been to from the pulpit and I and I've been to from the pulpit and I and I've been to these churches saying exactly who you these churches saying exactly who you these churches saying exactly who you should vote for because there's no fear should vote for because there's no fear should vote for because there's no fear anymore about losing your tax exempt anymore about losing your tax exempt anymore about losing your tax exempt status. So the church, not all churches, status. So the church, not all churches, status. So the church, not all churches, but many churches, whether right or but many churches, whether right or but many churches, whether right or left, are just left, are just left, are just um champions for tribal party political um champions for tribal party political um champions for tribal party political parties at this point. And and like parties at this point. And and like parties at this point. And and like you're you'll be hard pressed to go to you're you'll be hard pressed to go to you're you'll be hard pressed to go to Actually, I would love anybody to DM us Actually, I would love anybody to DM us Actually, I would love anybody to DM us if you go to a church that doesn't if you go to a church that doesn't if you go to a church that doesn't preach tithe and doesn't preach politics preach tithe and doesn't preach politics preach tithe and doesn't preach politics from the pulpit. That you're going to be from the pulpit. That you're going to be from the pulpit. That you're going to be hard pressed to find a hard pressed to find a hard pressed to find a successful church doing that today. successful church doing that today. successful church doing that today. Yeah. >> I I've never seen that. >> I I've never seen that. >> Really? >> Really? >> Really? >> No. >> No. >> No. >> Oh, do you have Do you do you go to many >> Oh, do you have Do you do you go to many >> Oh, do you have Do you do you go to many big churches? Many like mega churches? big churches? Many like mega churches? big churches? Many like mega churches? Okay, well, that's a problem. Okay, well, that's a problem. Okay, well, that's a problem. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> That's that's the problem. Yeah, I go to >> That's that's the problem. Yeah, I go to >> That's that's the problem. Yeah, I go to a lot of them. That's that's what I a lot of them. That's that's what I a lot of them. That's that's what I visit. visit. visit. >> And they're open about this or that >> And they're open about this or that >> And they're open about this or that candidate? candidate? candidate? >> Oh, yeah.

>> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. They can't just say >> Yeah. They can't just say >> Yeah. They can't just say give to Caesar what Caesar's. They have give to Caesar what Caesar's. They have give to Caesar what Caesar's. They have to like to like to like >> Well, that's a funny one. Render to >> Well, that's a funny one. Render to >> Well, that's a funny one. Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and Caesar the things that are Caesar's and Caesar the things that are Caesar's and render to God the things that are God's render to God the things that are God's render to God the things that are God's cuz that's a that's an inflection point cuz that's a that's an inflection point cuz that's a that's an inflection point for the church, too. for the church, too. for the church, too. Right? Your your congregation pays Right? Your your congregation pays Right? Your your congregation pays taxes. taxes. taxes. But why do you why does the church have But why do you why does the church have But why do you why does the church have this interesting carve out where they this interesting carve out where they this interesting carve out where they don't pay tax? don't pay tax? don't pay tax? >> I don't know. >> I don't know. >> I don't know. >> Well, it's it's it goes back to 1913. >> Well, it's it's it goes back to 1913. >> Well, it's it's it goes back to 1913. And And And Yeah, the Yeah, the Yeah, the I said I we when we talked last, I I said I we when we talked last, I I said I we when we talked last, I talked about kind of the weaponization talked about kind of the weaponization talked about kind of the weaponization or the the box that churches climbed or the the box that churches climbed or the the box that churches climbed into, religious organizations climbed into, religious organizations climbed into, religious organizations climbed into, which is the 14-point checklist. into, which is the 14-point checklist. into, which is the 14-point checklist. The I think tax exemption was the carrot The I think tax exemption was the carrot The I think tax exemption was the carrot for them to climb in. for them to climb in. for them to climb in. It's say, "Tucker, we're going to give It's say, "Tucker, we're going to give It's say, "Tucker, we're going to give your church tax-exempt status. You don't your church tax-exempt status. You don't your church tax-exempt status. You don't have to pay taxes, but you're going to have to pay taxes, but you're going to have to pay taxes, but you're going to have to play by these rules." have to play by these rules." have to play by these rules." And so you climbed into the box, and now And so you climbed into the box, and now And so you climbed into the box, and now this box can be weaponized right or this box can be weaponized right or this box can be weaponized right or left. left. left. Now foreign agents can come in and just Now foreign agents can come in and just Now foreign agents can come in and just sell sell sell concepts to the box. concepts to the box. concepts to the box. If that makes sense. And hey, if I do If that makes sense. And hey, if I do If that makes sense. And hey, if I do anything wrong, if I don't live inside anything wrong, if I don't live inside anything wrong, if I don't live inside these 14 points, I might get kicked out these 14 points, I might get kicked out these 14 points, I might get kicked out of this box. Which which What is getting of this box. Which which What is getting of this box. Which which What is getting kicked out?

kicked out? kicked out? Lose your tax-exempt status. Great. Who Lose your tax-exempt status. Great. Who Lose your tax-exempt status. Great. Who cares? cares? cares? Lose it. Lose it. Lose it. >> Are there churches that don't claim >> Are there churches that don't claim >> Are there churches that don't claim tax-exempt status? tax-exempt status? tax-exempt status? >> There's a couple. Yeah, very it's >> There's a couple. Yeah, very it's >> There's a couple. Yeah, very it's There's a [clears throat] There's a [clears throat] There's a [clears throat] I would love There's There's a new model I would love There's There's a new model I would love There's There's a new model that um that um that um You know, like I called us kind of You know, like I called us kind of You know, like I called us kind of auditors on systems. We don't get any We auditors on systems. We don't get any We auditors on systems. We don't get any We don't get anything perfect, but we we don't get anything perfect, but we we don't get anything perfect, but we we we're just trying to get things right, we're just trying to get things right, we're just trying to get things right, more Christ-like. more Christ-like. more Christ-like. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And so I >> And so I >> And so I I don't only want to be an auditor, I I don't only want to be an auditor, I I don't only want to be an auditor, I want to be um a reformer. I want us to want to be um a reformer. I want us to want to be um a reformer. I want us to help usher in help usher in help usher in change that's more Christ-like. And so change that's more Christ-like. And so change that's more Christ-like. And so as we look at the system, there are as we look at the system, there are as we look at the system, there are legal structures that um hedge against legal structures that um hedge against legal structures that um hedge against man's man's man's evil hearts, for lack of a better term. evil hearts, for lack of a better term. evil hearts, for lack of a better term. We corrupt things. We corrupt things. We corrupt things. >> There's no better term. >> There's no better term. >> There's no better term. >> Yeah, thank you. [laughter] And so how I >> Yeah, thank you. [laughter] And so how I >> Yeah, thank you. [laughter] And so how I think it'd be really brilliant if we think it'd be really brilliant if we think it'd be really brilliant if we were honest enough with ourselves as were honest enough with ourselves as were honest enough with ourselves as Christians and as as leaders to be like, Christians and as as leaders to be like, Christians and as as leaders to be like, "Hey, let's build a system." And our "Hey, let's build a system." And our "Hey, let's build a system." And our founding fathers did this brilliantly. founding fathers did this brilliantly. founding fathers did this brilliantly. They're like, "Let's build a system that They're like, "Let's build a system that They're like, "Let's build a system that keeps it safe from ourselves." keeps it safe from ourselves." keeps it safe from ourselves." >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> And so, I think there's going to be a >> And so, I think there's going to be a >> And so, I think there's going to be a new wave of pastors and a new wave of new wave of pastors and a new wave of new wave of pastors and a new wave of Christian leaders that say, "How do we Christian leaders that say, "How do we Christian leaders that say, "How do we build a system cuz we do need a system build a system cuz we do need a system build a system cuz we do need a system that is protected from ourselves?"

that is protected from ourselves?" that is protected from ourselves?" And I think it starts with uh And I think it starts with uh And I think it starts with uh open-source accounting. open-source accounting. open-source accounting. So, everybody can see where the money So, everybody can see where the money So, everybody can see where the money goes. And then there's legal goes. And then there's legal goes. And then there's legal architecture that you can play into architecture that you can play into architecture that you can play into that's not tax exemption. That doesn't that's not tax exemption. That doesn't that's not tax exemption. That doesn't have to do with tax exemption. That have to do with tax exemption. That have to do with tax exemption. That builds a better ecosystem for a builds a better ecosystem for a builds a better ecosystem for a transparent church. And that's what transparent church. And that's what transparent church. And that's what we're really what we're working on. We we're really what we're working on. We we're really what we're working on. We have some really cool stuff happening have some really cool stuff happening have some really cool stuff happening over the next few months because of over the next few months because of over the next few months because of that. that. that. >> God gave me a Ferrari. >> God gave me a Ferrari. >> God gave me a Ferrari. >> He gave his son, and you want to argue >> He gave his son, and you want to argue >> He gave his son, and you want to argue about 2%. about 2%. about 2%. >> Millions of Christians donate to their >> Millions of Christians donate to their >> Millions of Christians donate to their church every week. It's generous, and it church every week. It's generous, and it church every week. It's generous, and it goes to a nonprofit. goes to a nonprofit. goes to a nonprofit. >> another amen? >> another amen? >> another amen? >> Well, it turns out the nonprofit >> Well, it turns out the nonprofit >> Well, it turns out the nonprofit designation is one of the most powerful designation is one of the most powerful designation is one of the most powerful legal and financial protections in all legal and financial protections in all legal and financial protections in all American law. American law. American law. >> $53 >> $53 >> $53 billion is stolen every year. billion is stolen every year. billion is stolen every year. >> Mind >> Mind >> Mind your own business. your own business. your own business. >> In fact, some of the most powerful >> In fact, some of the most powerful >> In fact, some of the most powerful financial institutions in America are financial institutions in America are financial institutions in America are not banks, they are churches. not banks, they are churches. not banks, they are churches. >> In the for-profit world, if you went out >> In the for-profit world, if you went out >> In the for-profit world, if you went out and raised money for something like this and raised money for something like this and raised money for something like this and didn't build it, that would be and didn't build it, that would be and didn't build it, that would be called fraud. But in the religious called fraud. But in the religious called fraud. But in the religious world, we call it faith. world, we call it faith. world, we call it faith. >> Filmmaker Nathan Apffel set out to find >> Filmmaker Nathan Apffel set out to find >> Filmmaker Nathan Apffel set out to find out what is happening here.

out what is happening here. out what is happening here. >> You have been warned for criminal >> You have been warned for criminal >> You have been warned for criminal trespass. trespass. trespass. >> You are being detained. [music] >> You are being detained. [music] >> You are being detained. [music] >> This is not a series that attacks faith. >> This is not a series that attacks faith. >> This is not a series that attacks faith. This is a series that attacks people who This is a series that attacks people who This is a series that attacks people who are using faith to get rich. are using faith to get rich. are using faith to get rich. >> At what point do we call this not only a >> At what point do we call this not only a >> At what point do we call this not only a business, but a straight-up scam? business, but a straight-up scam? business, but a straight-up scam? >> We have a new multi-part series called >> We have a new multi-part series called >> We have a new multi-part series called The Religion Business, and it covers it The Religion Business, and it covers it The Religion Business, and it covers it all. It's now available at all. It's now available at all. It's now available at tuckercarlson.com. tuckercarlson.com. tuckercarlson.com. >> I would assume all churches would have >> I would assume all churches would have >> I would assume all churches would have transparent accounting. transparent accounting. transparent accounting. >> No, very um as denominations, >> No, very um as denominations, >> No, very um as denominations, denominational structure, you you had to denominational structure, you you had to denominational structure, you you had to be transparent with the denomination, be transparent with the denomination, be transparent with the denomination, which is good. But as denominations die which is good. But as denominations die which is good. But as denominations die and non-denominationalism is rising, and non-denominationalism is rising, and non-denominationalism is rising, non-denominational churches are are non-denominational churches are are non-denominational churches are are accountable to no other church. accountable to no other church. accountable to no other church. Most usually. Some people will say, "Oh, Most usually. Some people will say, "Oh, Most usually. Some people will say, "Oh, no, this church has this pastor that's no, this church has this pastor that's no, this church has this pastor that's on my board." on my board." on my board." >> with >> with >> with >> Yeah, but it's like there's no handing >> Yeah, but it's like there's no handing >> Yeah, but it's like there's no handing over of P&L statements or budgets. over of P&L statements or budgets. over of P&L statements or budgets. Um Um Um So, what's happened is a lot of churches So, what's happened is a lot of churches So, what's happened is a lot of churches like there's a church in Florida, their like there's a church in Florida, their like there's a church in Florida, their budget is um 91 million a year. budget is um 91 million a year. budget is um 91 million a year. Their congregation gets a single sheet Their congregation gets a single sheet Their congregation gets a single sheet of paper with three little like three of paper with three little like three of paper with three little like three pie charts on it.

pie charts on it. pie charts on it. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And it says, "Here's where your 91 >> And it says, "Here's where your 91 >> And it says, "Here's where your 91 million went." million went." million went." >> Where does it actually go, do you think? >> Where does it actually go, do you think? >> Where does it actually go, do you think? >> Uh like there's just buckets, you know, >> Uh like there's just buckets, you know, >> Uh like there's just buckets, you know, there's just massive buckets. 20 I I I there's just massive buckets. 20 I I I there's just massive buckets. 20 I I I don't have the the pie charts in front don't have the the pie charts in front don't have the the pie charts in front of me, but 27% goes to salary. Okay, of me, but 27% goes to salary. Okay, of me, but 27% goes to salary. Okay, well, what does the head pastor make? well, what does the head pastor make? well, what does the head pastor make? You don't need to know, Tucker. You don't need to know, Tucker. You don't need to know, Tucker. >> They don't tell you what the pastor >> They don't tell you what the pastor >> They don't tell you what the pastor makes? makes? makes? >> You don't know what the pastor makes? >> You don't know what the pastor makes? >> You don't know what the pastor makes? This is the crazy part is you don't know This is the crazy part is you don't know This is the crazy part is you don't know their retirement packages. And and I've their retirement packages. And and I've their retirement packages. And and I've I've heard about his retired this I've heard about his retired this I've heard about his retired this individual's retirement package. individual's retirement package. individual's retirement package. Um Um Um This church in particular This church in particular This church in particular uh we did a series of videos on because uh we did a series of videos on because uh we did a series of videos on because they took a PPP loan. A 1.7 they took a PPP loan. A 1.7 they took a PPP loan. A 1.7 million-dollar PPP loan in 2020. A few million-dollar PPP loan in 2020. A few million-dollar PPP loan in 2020. A few months later they bought a 12.7 months later they bought a 12.7 months later they bought a 12.7 million-dollar hunting ranch. million-dollar hunting ranch. million-dollar hunting ranch. And then a few months after that the PPP And then a few months after that the PPP And then a few months after that the PPP loan got forgiven and it was dumped on loan got forgiven and it was dumped on loan got forgiven and it was dumped on the American taxpayer. the American taxpayer. the American taxpayer. >> No. They forgave [clears throat] >> No. They forgave [clears throat] >> No. They forgave [clears throat] those loans? those loans? those loans? >> Mhm. And my question my only my question >> Mhm. And my question my only my question >> Mhm. And my question my only my question was, "Hey, is this Christ-like? To claim was, "Hey, is this Christ-like? To claim was, "Hey, is this Christ-like? To claim financial hardship, take a 1.7 financial hardship, take a 1.7 financial hardship, take a 1.7 million-dollar PPP loan as you're buying million-dollar PPP loan as you're buying million-dollar PPP loan as you're buying an almost 13 million-dollar property for an almost 13 million-dollar property for an almost 13 million-dollar property for the church that's not essential.

the church that's not essential. the church that's not essential. And then you dump 1.7 million-dollars And then you dump 1.7 million-dollars And then you dump 1.7 million-dollars worth of debt on the American taxpayer? worth of debt on the American taxpayer? worth of debt on the American taxpayer? That doesn't sound very Christ-like." That doesn't sound very Christ-like." That doesn't sound very Christ-like." And I got eaten alive for that comment. And I got eaten alive for that comment. And I got eaten alive for that comment. >> What was Jesus's real estate portfolio? >> What was Jesus's real estate portfolio? >> What was Jesus's real estate portfolio? >> Huge. >> Huge. >> Huge. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> The world. >> The world. >> The world. >> The son of man has no place to lay his >> The son of man has no place to lay his >> The son of man has no place to lay his head, I think he said. He had zero real head, I think he said. He had zero real head, I think he said. He had zero real estate portfolio. What kind of You got a estate portfolio. What kind of You got a estate portfolio. What kind of You got a negative reaction to that? negative reaction to that? negative reaction to that? >> Horrible. >> Horrible. >> Horrible. >> How? >> How? >> How? >> Yeah, because it goes back to Israel. >> Yeah, because it goes back to Israel. >> Yeah, because it goes back to Israel. This is a good correlation, actually. This is a good correlation, actually. This is a good correlation, actually. They said, "Nathan, look at how many They said, "Nathan, look at how many They said, "Nathan, look at how many baptisms they're doing. Look at how many baptisms they're doing. Look at how many baptisms they're doing. Look at how many salvations they're doing." And they go, salvations they're doing." And they go, salvations they're doing." And they go, "How dare you?" Quite And then one "How dare you?" Quite And then one "How dare you?" Quite And then one individual even put the the percentage individual even put the the percentage individual even put the the percentage of the total PPP loan forgiveness debt of the total PPP loan forgiveness debt of the total PPP loan forgiveness debt in a comment. He goes, "Nathan, this is in a comment. He goes, "Nathan, this is in a comment. He goes, "Nathan, this is all it is to the American public." all it is to the American public." all it is to the American public." He tried to rationalize it. He's like, He tried to rationalize it. He's like, He tried to rationalize it. He's like, "It's or whatever of the total PPP loan debt. So, why do of the total PPP loan debt. So, why do you care?" you care?" you care?" And that is that is the the biggest And that is that is the the biggest And that is that is the the biggest issue I have with all of this is issue I have with all of this is issue I have with all of this is >> that reasoning justifies like, I don't >> that reasoning justifies like, I don't >> that reasoning justifies like, I don't know, shoplifting from a grocery store.

know, shoplifting from a grocery store. know, shoplifting from a grocery store. They got tons of food. They got tons of food. They got tons of food. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> What what percentage, if I steal this >> What what percentage, if I steal this >> What what percentage, if I steal this candy bar, what percentage of the total candy bar, what percentage of the total candy bar, what percentage of the total candy bar in Victoria's that? It's just candy bar in Victoria's that? It's just candy bar in Victoria's that? It's just zero point point point point. zero point point point point. zero point point point point. >> That sounds pretty Christ-like, right? >> That sounds pretty Christ-like, right? >> That sounds pretty Christ-like, right? >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Oh, man. It's It's So, the But, here's >> Oh, man. It's It's So, the But, here's >> Oh, man. It's It's So, the But, here's the thing is an auditor, and I'm going the thing is an auditor, and I'm going the thing is an auditor, and I'm going to use this term, it's exhausting to use this term, it's exhausting to use this term, it's exhausting because there's just so much corruption because there's just so much corruption because there's just so much corruption in the system. And so, I'm really in the system. And so, I'm really in the system. And so, I'm really excited for the next 6 months because, excited for the next 6 months because, excited for the next 6 months because, okay, how do we become the leaders in okay, how do we become the leaders in okay, how do we become the leaders in the change? You know, and how do we show the change? You know, and how do we show the change? You know, and how do we show different models and say, "Hey, here's different models and say, "Hey, here's different models and say, "Hey, here's how we can do it different differently. how we can do it different differently. how we can do it different differently. Here's how we can build systems to Here's how we can build systems to Here's how we can build systems to protect it against ourselves." protect it against ourselves." protect it against ourselves." >> So, if you don't mind, will you describe >> So, if you don't mind, will you describe >> So, if you don't mind, will you describe the ideal model for an American church? the ideal model for an American church? the ideal model for an American church? >> I don't like where where >> I don't like where where >> I don't like where where >> Well, what would be a massive >> Well, what would be a massive >> Well, what would be a massive improvement? improvement? improvement? >> Um transparent accounting is is is base >> Um transparent accounting is is is base >> Um transparent accounting is is is base level step one. Like, your congregation, level step one. Like, your congregation, level step one. Like, your congregation, your donors should know where every your donors should know where every your donors should know where every dollar goes. And they should be able to dollar goes. And they should be able to dollar goes. And they should be able to ask. Your pastor's salary should be ask. Your pastor's salary should be ask. Your pastor's salary should be public knowledge. Just like if public knowledge. Just like if public knowledge. Just like if if I invest in a for-profit publicly if I invest in a for-profit publicly if I invest in a for-profit publicly traded company, I know those executive traded company, I know those executive traded company, I know those executive salaries. I know where the money goes.

salaries. I know where the money goes. salaries. I know where the money goes. So, why should that I invest in that So, why should that I invest in that So, why should that I invest in that company? If I donate and fund this company? If I donate and fund this company? If I donate and fund this organization, I should know where the organization, I should know where the organization, I should know where the money goes as well. money goes as well. money goes as well. >> But, they don't disclose that. >> But, they don't disclose that. >> But, they don't disclose that. >> disclose that, no. Many churches do not. >> disclose that, no. Many churches do not. >> disclose that, no. Many churches do not. So, there's there's great I have a lot So, there's there's great I have a lot So, there's there's great I have a lot of friends in denominations. Methodist of friends in denominations. Methodist of friends in denominations. Methodist Methodist, Baptist, you know, and and Methodist, Baptist, you know, and and Methodist, Baptist, you know, and and their salaries are known for the most their salaries are known for the most their salaries are known for the most part. And so, I love it because it part. And so, I love it because it part. And so, I love it because it checks them at the door. There is that checks them at the door. There is that checks them at the door. There is that check if that makes sense. And my check if that makes sense. And my check if that makes sense. And my Methodist friends in Florida, you guys Methodist friends in Florida, you guys Methodist friends in Florida, you guys know who you are, like they're hilarious know who you are, like they're hilarious know who you are, like they're hilarious cuz they're bi-vocational. cuz they're bi-vocational. cuz they're bi-vocational. And they're like, "Nathan, half our pews And they're like, "Nathan, half our pews And they're like, "Nathan, half our pews are filled with drug addicts and are filled with drug addicts and are filled with drug addicts and homeless." homeless." homeless." You know, but we're on the front lines. You know, but we're on the front lines. You know, but we're on the front lines. And and their program is so awesome. And And and their program is so awesome. And And and their program is so awesome. And they basically turned their their church they basically turned their their church they basically turned their their church into a a co-op where all these community into a a co-op where all these community into a a co-op where all these community nonprofits can thrive and encourage each nonprofits can thrive and encourage each nonprofits can thrive and encourage each other and and they've just given parts other and and they've just given parts other and and they've just given parts of the building to the nonprofits and of the building to the nonprofits and of the building to the nonprofits and it's become this community hub and I'm it's become this community hub and I'm it's become this community hub and I'm like, "Oh, like, "Oh, like, "Oh, Jesus is right here. I feel you know, I Jesus is right here. I feel you know, I Jesus is right here. I feel you know, I feel him." And you got you got homeless feel him." And you got you got homeless feel him." And you got you got homeless people coming and getting meals. You people coming and getting meals. You people coming and getting meals. You have um have um have um uh handicapped children in the little uh handicapped children in the little uh handicapped children in the little school there. It's beautiful. You know, school there. It's beautiful. You know, school there. It's beautiful. You know, and then you have people in the and then you have people in the and then you have people in the community packaging up food and I'm community packaging up food and I'm community packaging up food and I'm like, "Oh, I feel it. I feel the work, like, "Oh, I feel it. I feel the work, like, "Oh, I feel it. I feel the work, you know."

you know." you know." And uh and then I walk into a a church And uh and then I walk into a a church And uh and then I walk into a a church where I don't know the pastor's salary, where I don't know the pastor's salary, where I don't know the pastor's salary, where he just acquired a $12.75 million where he just acquired a $12.75 million where he just acquired a $12.75 million hunting ranch. And um hunting ranch. And um hunting ranch. And um and I'm like, "Okay, I'll grab a donut and I'm like, "Okay, I'll grab a donut and I'm like, "Okay, I'll grab a donut and a cup of coffee and see the and a cup of coffee and see the and a cup of coffee and see the performance." And usually the performance." And usually the performance." And usually the performance is on the projector screen. performance is on the projector screen. performance is on the projector screen. I don't even see him in person. I don't even see him in person. I don't even see him in person. >> Really? >> Really? >> Really? >> Mhm. Yeah. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> And no one knows what his salary or >> And no one knows what his salary or >> And no one knows what his salary or retirement package is. retirement package is. retirement package is. >> Well, I'm sure a few people on the elder >> Well, I'm sure a few people on the elder >> Well, I'm sure a few people on the elder board do. board do. board do. But yeah, it's But yeah, it's But yeah, it's um um um >> What would happen if a church just >> What would happen if a church just >> What would happen if a church just declined nonprofit status? declined nonprofit status? declined nonprofit status? >> I think that's the most brilliant option >> I think that's the most brilliant option >> I think that's the most brilliant option out there. out there. out there. Uh because what it does is it it holds Uh because what it does is it it holds Uh because what it does is it it holds you liable to the Fed and the state. you liable to the Fed and the state. you liable to the Fed and the state. Um you're rendering to Caesar the things Um you're rendering to Caesar the things Um you're rendering to Caesar the things that are Caesar's. And uh that are Caesar's. And uh that are Caesar's. And uh then you're not liable to get in that then you're not liable to get in that then you're not liable to get in that box. box. box. I think it'd be a like I think it'd be a I think it'd be a like I think it'd be a I think it'd be a like I think it'd be a really fun experiment. All of this is an really fun experiment. All of this is an really fun experiment. All of this is an experiment, right? America is an experiment, right? America is an experiment, right? America is an experiment, a governing experiment. Our experiment, a governing experiment. Our experiment, a governing experiment. Our our institutions that we've built on top our institutions that we've built on top our institutions that we've built on top of Christ, those are just experiments. of Christ, those are just experiments. of Christ, those are just experiments. Those are traditions of men. Those are traditions of men. Those are traditions of men. And when we can see it for that, and And when we can see it for that, and And when we can see it for that, and that's not doctrine, then we can audit that's not doctrine, then we can audit that's not doctrine, then we can audit the the experiments and say, "Where are the the experiments and say, "Where are the the experiments and say, "Where are we failing?

we failing? we failing? And I think a really cool experiment And I think a really cool experiment And I think a really cool experiment would be to start a church as a would be to start a church as a would be to start a church as a for-profit vehicle. And here's a great for-profit vehicle. And here's a great for-profit vehicle. And here's a great example. If if the religion business example. If if the religion business example. If if the religion business takes off and we're doing season 3 and 4 takes off and we're doing season 3 and 4 takes off and we're doing season 3 and 4 and we keep going as we reform the and we keep going as we reform the and we keep going as we reform the system, we'll need a space eventually to system, we'll need a space eventually to system, we'll need a space eventually to build our sets out because our sit sets build our sets out because our sit sets build our sets out because our sit sets are sitting in storage right now. And are sitting in storage right now. And are sitting in storage right now. And we're talking about internally, okay, we're talking about internally, okay, we're talking about internally, okay, how does our for-profit business how does our for-profit business how does our for-profit business help the community? Well, all of a help the community? Well, all of a help the community? Well, all of a sudden we have warehouse space. Let's sudden we have warehouse space. Let's sudden we have warehouse space. Let's hold a church. Let's hold a gathering. I hold a church. Let's hold a gathering. I hold a church. Let's hold a gathering. I hold two a week right now. One's in my hold two a week right now. One's in my hold two a week right now. One's in my house and I'm like, well, we could make house and I'm like, well, we could make house and I'm like, well, we could make it a little bigger and we don't even it a little bigger and we don't even it a little bigger and we don't even need to ask people for money cuz God's need to ask people for money cuz God's need to ask people for money cuz God's blessed us with the space. You know, we blessed us with the space. You know, we blessed us with the space. You know, we could we could start a church could we could start a church could we could start a church organically like that to where a organically like that to where a organically like that to where a for-profit vehicle funds the ability to for-profit vehicle funds the ability to for-profit vehicle funds the ability to hold church. hold church. hold church. To hold the gathering if that makes To hold the gathering if that makes To hold the gathering if that makes sense. So, why don't people do it? sense. So, why don't people do it? sense. So, why don't people do it? I think it's just I think it's just I think it's just >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> nonprofits status is a really easy thing >> nonprofits status is a really easy thing >> nonprofits status is a really easy thing to grab. You know, in 1913 when the to grab. You know, in 1913 when the to grab. You know, in 1913 when the nonprofits sector was carved out, there nonprofits sector was carved out, there nonprofits sector was carved out, there was 12,000 organizations. Today there's was 12,000 organizations. Today there's was 12,000 organizations. Today there's 1.9 million nonprofits. So, you say, 1.9 million nonprofits. So, you say, 1.9 million nonprofits. So, you say, "Okay, Tucker, well, you know, "Okay, Tucker, well, you know, "Okay, Tucker, well, you know, population expansion."

population expansion." population expansion." Well, the population only expanded to Well, the population only expanded to Well, the population only expanded to 4.3% in the last 110 years. So, you do 4.3% in the last 110 years. So, you do 4.3% in the last 110 years. So, you do the math, that would put put us around the math, that would put put us around the math, that would put put us around 65,000 organizations. So, you ask you 65,000 organizations. So, you ask you 65,000 organizations. So, you ask you have to ask, "Why is there a gap from have to ask, "Why is there a gap from have to ask, "Why is there a gap from 65,000 organizations to 1.9 million?" 65,000 organizations to 1.9 million?" 65,000 organizations to 1.9 million?" The sector just exploded and it's The sector just exploded and it's The sector just exploded and it's because there's less accountability in because there's less accountability in because there's less accountability in the legal architecture. And then the legal architecture. And then the legal architecture. And then religious exemptions are just completely religious exemptions are just completely religious exemptions are just completely dark. dark. dark. And what I mean by that is they file no And what I mean by that is they file no And what I mean by that is they file no 990 with the IRS. 990 with the IRS. 990 with the IRS. They file very few documents with the They file very few documents with the They file very few documents with the state. And so, the church, the state. And so, the church, the state. And so, the church, the institution which is supposed to be the institution which is supposed to be the institution which is supposed to be the beacon of light, plays in the darkest beacon of light, plays in the darkest beacon of light, plays in the darkest legal architecture there is in the US. legal architecture there is in the US. legal architecture there is in the US. And it's just become status quo. Now And it's just become status quo. Now And it's just become status quo. Now it's like, "Hey, let's start a church." it's like, "Hey, let's start a church." it's like, "Hey, let's start a church." And now what's cool is not what's cool, And now what's cool is not what's cool, And now what's cool is not what's cool, it's I shouldn't say that, it's very it's I shouldn't say that, it's very it's I shouldn't say that, it's very pathetic, is certain denominations have pathetic, is certain denominations have pathetic, is certain denominations have lobbied the government over the last 50 lobbied the government over the last 50 lobbied the government over the last 50 years to add add vocabulary in front of years to add add vocabulary in front of years to add add vocabulary in front of the word church. the word church. the word church. So now, if I have a church that's not a So now, if I have a church that's not a So now, if I have a church that's not a nonprofit that that has religious nonprofit that that has religious nonprofit that that has religious exemption, so I don't file a 990, I can exemption, so I don't file a 990, I can exemption, so I don't file a 990, I can start acquiring for-profit companies and start acquiring for-profit companies and start acquiring for-profit companies and pulling them under my church banner as a pulling them under my church banner as a pulling them under my church banner as a church.

church. church. So I can have an investment fund So I can have an investment fund So I can have an investment fund registered as a church. I can have a TV registered as a church. I can have a TV registered as a church. I can have a TV network registered as a church. I can network registered as a church. I can network registered as a church. I can have a radio station registered as a have a radio station registered as a have a radio station registered as a church. I can take almost any vehicle, church. I can take almost any vehicle, church. I can take almost any vehicle, any any legal for-profit business and any any legal for-profit business and any any legal for-profit business and bring it under my church, and it gets to bring it under my church, and it gets to bring it under my church, and it gets to reclassify as a church. reclassify as a church. reclassify as a church. You have organizations like Compassion You have organizations like Compassion You have organizations like Compassion International, International, International, um Ravi Zacharias Ministries. These um Ravi Zacharias Ministries. These um Ravi Zacharias Ministries. These These organizations used to file 990s These organizations used to file 990s These organizations used to file 990s cuz they were regular nonprofits, and cuz they were regular nonprofits, and cuz they were regular nonprofits, and they reclassified as a church. So it they reclassified as a church. So it they reclassified as a church. So it means they no longer had to file 990s. means they no longer had to file 990s. means they no longer had to file 990s. >> You can do it with any business? >> You can do it with any business? >> You can do it with any business? >> If you have a church, you can you can >> If you have a church, you can you can >> If you have a church, you can you can you can bring it under your fold as you can bring it under your fold as you can bring it under your fold as what's called an auxiliary, a what's called an auxiliary, a what's called an auxiliary, a convention, or association. There's convention, or association. There's convention, or association. There's different classifications. different classifications. different classifications. And you can basically build a And you can basically build a And you can basically build a conglomerate as a church. So a thrift conglomerate as a church. So a thrift conglomerate as a church. So a thrift store. That same That same store. That same That same store. That same That same same church in Florida has a thrift same church in Florida has a thrift same church in Florida has a thrift store. A thrift store is registered as a store. A thrift store is registered as a store. A thrift store is registered as a church. church. church. It files no 990s. You're selling It files no 990s. You're selling It files no 990s. You're selling clothes. Well, let me rephrase that. clothes. Well, let me rephrase that. clothes. Well, let me rephrase that. You're taking clothes for free, You're taking clothes for free, You're taking clothes for free, washing them and then selling them as washing them and then selling them as washing them and then selling them as opposed to just giving them away to opposed to just giving them away to opposed to just giving them away to people who need clothes, but you're people who need clothes, but you're people who need clothes, but you're making a profit off of that. But why making a profit off of that. But why making a profit off of that. But why would a thrift store be registered as a would a thrift store be registered as a would a thrift store be registered as a church?

church? church? So you can start building these So you can start building these So you can start building these businesses, these conglomerates, and all businesses, these conglomerates, and all businesses, these conglomerates, and all under the banner of one church. under the banner of one church. under the banner of one church. >> And none of them pay taxes. >> And none of them pay taxes. >> And none of them pay taxes. >> None of them No, they they do not pay >> None of them No, they they do not pay >> None of them No, they they do not pay taxes. Um and what's crazy is that same taxes. Um and what's crazy is that same taxes. Um and what's crazy is that same church, they have a a new uh church, they have a a new uh church, they have a a new uh business, relatively new. It's It's business, relatively new. It's It's business, relatively new. It's It's basically a consulting firm to build basically a consulting firm to build basically a consulting firm to build your church. your church. your church. So Tucker, you you can hire my So Tucker, you you can hire my So Tucker, you you can hire my consulting firm, and I'm going to teach consulting firm, and I'm going to teach consulting firm, and I'm going to teach you how to build your church. I'm going you how to build your church. I'm going you how to build your church. I'm going to give, you know, lay it out for you, to give, you know, lay it out for you, to give, you know, lay it out for you, talk about the screens and everything. talk about the screens and everything. talk about the screens and everything. That's registered as a church as well. That's registered as a church as well. That's registered as a church as well. So a consulting firm to teach you how to So a consulting firm to teach you how to So a consulting firm to teach you how to build a building is registered as a build a building is registered as a build a building is registered as a church. So that means it files no 990s, church. So that means it files no 990s, church. So that means it files no 990s, no one knows what people are making at no one knows what people are making at no one knows what people are making at the executive level. It's just the like the executive level. It's just the like the executive level. It's just the like religion is the organized organized religion is the organized organized religion is the organized organized non-profit religious exemptions are the non-profit religious exemptions are the non-profit religious exemptions are the perfect vehicle to just abuse the perfect vehicle to just abuse the perfect vehicle to just abuse the system. system. system. I'm not saying everybody's doing that, I'm not saying everybody's doing that, I'm not saying everybody's doing that, but I'm saying the legal architecture is but I'm saying the legal architecture is but I'm saying the legal architecture is the perfect vehicle for abuse. the perfect vehicle for abuse. the perfect vehicle for abuse. >> The Mormon the LDS Church, Mormon >> The Mormon the LDS Church, Mormon >> The Mormon the LDS Church, Mormon Church, um is one of the biggest land Church, um is one of the biggest land Church, um is one of the biggest land owners in the United States. owners in the United States. owners in the United States. >> Yeah, they were the second largest >> Yeah, they were the second largest >> Yeah, they were the second largest private land owner. They might be the private land owner. They might be the private land owner. They might be the first now.

first now. first now. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So what >> So what >> So what Like how big is the enterprise and Like how big is the enterprise and Like how big is the enterprise and what's its purpose? what's its purpose? what's its purpose? >> The LDS Church? >> The LDS Church? >> The LDS Church? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh the LDS Church is their net assets >> Uh the LDS Church is their net assets >> Uh the LDS Church is their net assets are about 350 billion are about 350 billion are about 350 billion um billion with a B. um billion with a B. um billion with a B. Um they have they have over 300 billion Um they have they have over 300 billion Um they have they have over 300 billion in the market just invested. Uh through in the market just invested. Uh through in the market just invested. Uh through a through a hedge fund called Ensign a through a hedge fund called Ensign a through a hedge fund called Ensign Peak Advisors. They'll hit a trillion Peak Advisors. They'll hit a trillion Peak Advisors. They'll hit a trillion dollars if they continue the growth dollars if they continue the growth dollars if they continue the growth rate. They'll hit a trillion dollars in rate. They'll hit a trillion dollars in rate. They'll hit a trillion dollars in net assets in the next 15 years. And the net assets in the next 15 years. And the net assets in the next 15 years. And the crazy part about the LDS Church crazy part about the LDS Church crazy part about the LDS Church is they make so much profit in the is they make so much profit in the is they make so much profit in the market. They made 25 billion last year market. They made 25 billion last year market. They made 25 billion last year in interest alone in the market. The in interest alone in the market. The in interest alone in the market. The entire global LDS Church costs around 7 entire global LDS Church costs around 7 entire global LDS Church costs around 7 billion dollars billion dollars billion dollars to run. to run. to run. So that means they could fund the church So that means they could fund the church So that means they could fund the church in perpetuity in perpetuity in perpetuity just off a percentage of the interest just off a percentage of the interest just off a percentage of the interest they make in the market, but they still they make in the market, but they still they make in the market, but they still demand that their congregants give them demand that their congregants give them demand that their congregants give them 10% a year. And they'll push Mormon my 10% a year. And they'll push Mormon my 10% a year. And they'll push Mormon my my Mormon my my Mormon friends are going my Mormon my my Mormon friends are going my Mormon my my Mormon friends are going to push back and say Nathan like hey, to push back and say Nathan like hey, to push back and say Nathan like hey, you know, we we don't have it's not a you know, we we don't have it's not a you know, we we don't have it's not a demand. Yes, it is cuz you don't get to demand. Yes, it is cuz you don't get to demand. Yes, it is cuz you don't get to get into your celestial kingdom unless get into your celestial kingdom unless get into your celestial kingdom unless you pay your tithe your 10% your tithe.

you pay your tithe your 10% your tithe. you pay your tithe your 10% your tithe. And so they could cut off they could say And so they could cut off they could say And so they could cut off they could say hey guys, stop giving to us right now, hey guys, stop giving to us right now, hey guys, stop giving to us right now, give to the community, give to people in give to the community, give to people in give to the community, give to people in need. Take that 10% and give to people need. Take that 10% and give to people need. Take that 10% and give to people in need, but they don't. They say give in need, but they don't. They say give in need, but they don't. They say give it to us still. it to us still. it to us still. And they could fund the church in And they could fund the church in And they could fund the church in perpetuity just off a percentage of the perpetuity just off a percentage of the perpetuity just off a percentage of the >> they doing? the point of all this? >> they doing? the point of all this? >> they doing? the point of all this? There I'll I'll argue for them. They're There I'll I'll argue for them. They're There I'll I'll argue for them. They're going to say, "Nathan, going to say, "Nathan, going to say, "Nathan, you know, Joseph in Egypt, he stockpiled you know, Joseph in Egypt, he stockpiled you know, Joseph in Egypt, he stockpiled for 7 years for 7 years for 7 years for the 7-year famine. That's what we're for the 7-year famine. That's what we're for the 7-year famine. That's what we're doing." doing." doing." Well, you've stockpiled indefinitely. Well, you've stockpiled indefinitely. Well, you've stockpiled indefinitely. Like you you you could fund the church Like you you you could fund the church Like you you you could fund the church indefinitely just off the interest. So, indefinitely just off the interest. So, indefinitely just off the interest. So, I don't know what they're doing. That I don't know what they're doing. That I don't know what they're doing. That would be their only rationale, but I see would be their only rationale, but I see would be their only rationale, but I see it is it's like the Lord of the Rings, it is it's like the Lord of the Rings, it is it's like the Lord of the Rings, right? There's the shiny ring. Like they right? There's the shiny ring. Like they right? There's the shiny ring. Like they their hedge fund is their ring, and they their hedge fund is their ring, and they their hedge fund is their ring, and they just can't give it up. just can't give it up. just can't give it up. And so, it's just it's just growing. And so, it's just it's just growing. And so, it's just it's just growing. >> Do pastors actually get rich doing the >> Do pastors actually get rich doing the >> Do pastors actually get rich doing the job? Are there some who do? job? Are there some who do? job? Are there some who do? >> Oh, yeah, for sure. >> Oh, yeah, for sure. >> Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, um um um Kenneth Copeland, I've seen estimates. Kenneth Copeland, I've seen estimates. Kenneth Copeland, I've seen estimates. No one knows what they're No one knows No one knows what they're No one knows No one knows what they're No one knows the exact number because it's it's it's the exact number because it's it's it's the exact number because it's it's it's not salaries aren't known, but some not salaries aren't known, but some not salaries aren't known, but some estimates Kenneth Copeland is worth 700 estimates Kenneth Copeland is worth 700 estimates Kenneth Copeland is worth 700 million, around 700 million.

million, around 700 million. million, around 700 million. Yeah. >> Is that I mean, that's I mean, since >> Is that I mean, that's I mean, since Jesus does say it's harder for rich man Jesus does say it's harder for rich man Jesus does say it's harder for rich man to get into heaven than a camel through to get into heaven than a camel through to get into heaven than a camel through the eye of a needle, the eye of a needle, the eye of a needle, but possible. but possible. but possible. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh that seems like >> Uh that seems like >> Uh that seems like very obviously the wrong path for a very obviously the wrong path for a very obviously the wrong path for a Christian church. Christian church. Christian church. >> 100% Well, there's a there's a beautiful >> 100% Well, there's a there's a beautiful >> 100% Well, there's a there's a beautiful part of the New Testament where Paul part of the New Testament where Paul part of the New Testament where Paul defines leadership qualifications. Yes. defines leadership qualifications. Yes. defines leadership qualifications. Yes. And lover of money is is one of them. And lover of money is is one of them. And lover of money is is one of them. You cannot be a lover of money. You need You cannot be a lover of money. You need You cannot be a lover of money. You need to live modestly, right? And it's like to live modestly, right? And it's like to live modestly, right? And it's like it's painted in there. And there are it's painted in there. And there are it's painted in there. And there are amazing pastors and shepherds out there amazing pastors and shepherds out there amazing pastors and shepherds out there that live by that standard. that live by that standard. that live by that standard. But there's this growing number In in a But there's this growing number In in a But there's this growing number In in a In again, it goes back to that socialist In again, it goes back to that socialist In again, it goes back to that socialist comment. When we see Christianity as a comment. When we see Christianity as a comment. When we see Christianity as a capitalistic venture and we build capitalistic venture and we build capitalistic venture and we build businesses on top of Christ with businesses on top of Christ with businesses on top of Christ with capitalism in mind, that's what happens. capitalism in mind, that's what happens. capitalism in mind, that's what happens. >> It does say I mean, this is as someone >> It does say I mean, this is as someone >> It does say I mean, this is as someone who loves America and is very who loves America and is very who loves America and is very pro-America, it pains me to say this, pro-America, it pains me to say this, pro-America, it pains me to say this, but I do think that Christianity as but I do think that Christianity as but I do think that Christianity as a religious faith as the, you know, the a religious faith as the, you know, the a religious faith as the, you know, the key to eternal life as is something key to eternal life as is something key to eternal life as is something bigger than any nation state, even your bigger than any nation state, even your bigger than any nation state, even your own.

own. own. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And so you probably want to keep your >> And so you probably want to keep your >> And so you probably want to keep your religion from becoming infected by religion from becoming infected by religion from becoming infected by cultural assumptions that are just by cultural assumptions that are just by cultural assumptions that are just by definition bound to a time and place. definition bound to a time and place. definition bound to a time and place. Like this is about eternity, right? Like this is about eternity, right? Like this is about eternity, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And to what extent do you think So >> And to what extent do you think So >> And to what extent do you think So that's my preface just to let This is that's my preface just to let This is that's my preface just to let This is not an anti-American statement at all. I not an anti-American statement at all. I not an anti-American statement at all. I love America, but I don't want love America, but I don't want love America, but I don't want Christianity to reflect America. I want Christianity to reflect America. I want Christianity to reflect America. I want Christianity to change America. Christianity to change America. Christianity to change America. >> Uh Amen. And Chris- Again, Christianity >> Uh Amen. And Chris- Again, Christianity >> Uh Amen. And Chris- Again, Christianity was the hardline against corruption. was the hardline against corruption. was the hardline against corruption. Like like the church was supposed to be Like like the church was supposed to be Like like the church was supposed to be the antithe- like the antithesis of the antithe- like the antithesis of the antithe- like the antithesis of corruption and instead the system and corruption and instead the system and corruption and instead the system and this is I I really want people to ask this is I I really want people to ask this is I I really want people to ask why has it corrupted is the the why has it corrupted is the the why has it corrupted is the the institutional model has corrupted to institutional model has corrupted to institutional model has corrupted to mirror our corruption in government. mirror our corruption in government. mirror our corruption in government. They run simultaneously now. The They run simultaneously now. The They run simultaneously now. The government says, "We're going to collect government says, "We're going to collect government says, "We're going to collect taxes, you know, and you're going to taxes, you know, and you're going to taxes, you know, and you're going to give it to us and with these with these give it to us and with these with these give it to us and with these with these with these massive bills you're never with these massive bills you're never with these massive bills you're never going to going to know where the going to going to know where the going to going to know where the spending goes. You just got to give us spending goes. You just got to give us spending goes. You just got to give us more money." The churches are doing the more money." The churches are doing the more money." The churches are doing the same thing. same thing. same thing. They're saying, "Hey, you're going to They're saying, "Hey, you're going to They're saying, "Hey, you're going to give us your money, we're going to build give us your money, we're going to build give us your money, we're going to build the system, you got to trust us, and now the system, you got to trust us, and now the system, you got to trust us, and now we're going to start petitioning your we're going to start petitioning your we're going to start petitioning your kids to go sell their electronics to kids to go sell their electronics to kids to go sell their electronics to give us, you know, give us, you know, give us, you know, >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> To give it to us?

>> To give it to us? >> To give it to us? >> To give it to us in the name of Jesus, >> To give it to us in the name of Jesus, >> To give it to us in the name of Jesus, you know. you know. you know. It's just it's such a sad spot to be It's just it's such a sad spot to be It's just it's such a sad spot to be right now to look at to look at the body right now to look at to look at the body right now to look at to look at the body of Christ that I love and it's just I of Christ that I love and it's just I of Christ that I love and it's just I always use the analogy we've built a always use the analogy we've built a always use the analogy we've built a tradition, we've built an institution, tradition, we've built an institution, tradition, we've built an institution, an expensive machine, a a consumerist an expensive machine, a a consumerist an expensive machine, a a consumerist machine that entertains us and keeps us machine that entertains us and keeps us machine that entertains us and keeps us fed, but that institution has chained fed, but that institution has chained fed, but that institution has chained chained us to the pews financially. chained us to the pews financially. chained us to the pews financially. Cuz if we leave, if you actually if you Cuz if we leave, if you actually if you Cuz if we leave, if you actually if you actually preached this whole book in its actually preached this whole book in its actually preached this whole book in its entirety, entirety, entirety, a lot of people would get up and leave. a lot of people would get up and leave. a lot of people would get up and leave. Because they'd be called to go out. Because they'd be called to go out. Because they'd be called to go out. They'd say, "Hey, God's calling me to do They'd say, "Hey, God's calling me to do They'd say, "Hey, God's calling me to do this other thing." Yeah. But but with this other thing." Yeah. But but with this other thing." Yeah. But but with that goes my money and my time and my that goes my money and my time and my that goes my money and my time and my attention. attention. attention. And so the the model we've built is And so the the model we've built is And so the the model we've built is actually antithetical to the calling in actually antithetical to the calling in actually antithetical to the calling in the in in the Gospels. the in in the Gospels. the in in the Gospels. >> So, the theology that these churches >> So, the theology that these churches >> So, the theology that these churches preach serve serves the church, not the preach serve serves the church, not the preach serve serves the church, not the kingdom of God. kingdom of God. kingdom of God. >> I've Yes, and I've said one statement >> I've Yes, and I've said one statement >> I've Yes, and I've said one statement that people have hung me for. I've said that people have hung me for. I've said that people have hung me for. I've said anybody who plays in this system for a anybody who plays in this system for a anybody who plays in this system for a full career gets eaten by the system.

full career gets eaten by the system. full career gets eaten by the system. And and you've nailed that. When you And and you've nailed that. When you And and you've nailed that. When you play for the institution, play for the institution, play for the institution, when you are on stage and you have this when you are on stage and you have this when you are on stage and you have this $70 million a year operating cost, your $70 million a year operating cost, your $70 million a year operating cost, your message, your your theology, everything message, your your theology, everything message, your your theology, everything you preach, from giving kids sheets on you preach, from giving kids sheets on you preach, from giving kids sheets on how to give you more money, shifts to how to give you more money, shifts to how to give you more money, shifts to build and calcify the machine we've build and calcify the machine we've build and calcify the machine we've built on top of Christ. built on top of Christ. built on top of Christ. >> makes total sense. >> makes total sense. >> makes total sense. >> And and I've I've talked to amazing >> And and I've I've talked to amazing >> And and I've I've talked to amazing pastors who've just been eaten by the pastors who've just been eaten by the pastors who've just been eaten by the machine. And then the good ones, here's machine. And then the good ones, here's machine. And then the good ones, here's the sad part, as the big ones grow, they the sad part, as the big ones grow, they the sad part, as the big ones grow, they drain resources from the small churches drain resources from the small churches drain resources from the small churches that are actually still embedded in the that are actually still embedded in the that are actually still embedded in the community doing the good work. And a lot community doing the good work. And a lot community doing the good work. And a lot of those small ones shut down. of those small ones shut down. of those small ones shut down. Statistically right now, church closure Statistically right now, church closure Statistically right now, church closure is out pacing church expansion, and the is out pacing church expansion, and the is out pacing church expansion, and the churches that are closing are the small churches that are closing are the small churches that are closing are the small ones. ones. ones. And those small churches are the And those small churches are the And those small churches are the backbone of their local communities. backbone of their local communities. backbone of their local communities. And so, when I say And so, when I say And so, when I say uh all pastors who play by the system uh all pastors who play by the system uh all pastors who play by the system die by the system, even the even the die by the system, even the even the die by the system, even the even the good ones get eaten by the system, good ones get eaten by the system, good ones get eaten by the system, because the big church gobles up their because the big church gobles up their because the big church gobles up their congregation and gobles up the resources congregation and gobles up the resources congregation and gobles up the resources that funded this beautiful small that funded this beautiful small that funded this beautiful small community church.

community church. community church. >> Is anyone pointing any of this out? Do >> Is anyone pointing any of this out? Do >> Is anyone pointing any of this out? Do you feel like a voice in the wilderness? you feel like a voice in the wilderness? you feel like a voice in the wilderness? >> I did for a couple years. Um but but I >> I did for a couple years. Um but but I >> I did for a couple years. Um but but I think our message is starting to think our message is starting to think our message is starting to resonate, and there's other there's resonate, and there's other there's resonate, and there's other there's other watchmen on the wall, so to speak. other watchmen on the wall, so to speak. other watchmen on the wall, so to speak. Um that's in Ezekiel, I think Ezekiel 3. Um that's in Ezekiel, I think Ezekiel 3. Um that's in Ezekiel, I think Ezekiel 3. >> So, there's clearly a a religious >> So, there's clearly a a religious >> So, there's clearly a a religious revival going on in the United States, a revival going on in the United States, a revival going on in the United States, a Christian revival. Where are people Christian revival. Where are people Christian revival. Where are people going? >> That's That's a really good question. I >> That's That's a really good question. I think people are searching. They don't think people are searching. They don't think people are searching. They don't know There There's some go to the mega know There There's some go to the mega know There There's some go to the mega church, some hopefully go to scripture church, some hopefully go to scripture church, some hopefully go to scripture and just sit quietly and read scripture and just sit quietly and read scripture and just sit quietly and read scripture and pray. and pray. and pray. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Um >> Um >> Um my my my my encouragement would be to go go find my encouragement would be to go go find my encouragement would be to go go find a small church in your area. a small church in your area. a small church in your area. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Like that church needs your help. Those >> Like that church needs your help. Those >> Like that church needs your help. Those smaller pastors that that are often smaller pastors that that are often smaller pastors that that are often bi-vocational because even their even bi-vocational because even their even bi-vocational because even their even their congregation can't fund a their congregation can't fund a their congregation can't fund a full-time salary, go support them full-time salary, go support them full-time salary, go support them with your time, with your with your with your time, with your with your with your time, with your with your talent, with your with your resource. talent, with your with your resource. talent, with your with your resource. Like those small ones Like those small ones Like those small ones and and and and ironically with the and and and and ironically with the and and and and ironically with the small ones need your help.

small ones need your help. small ones need your help. It's like they need you to to help with It's like they need you to to help with It's like they need you to to help with the kids. the kids. the kids. >> So bi-vocational means the the pastor is >> So bi-vocational means the the pastor is >> So bi-vocational means the the pastor is a a a carpenter, roofer, or carpenter, roofer, or carpenter, roofer, or >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And that's with the beautiful pastors >> And that's with the beautiful pastors >> And that's with the beautiful pastors that I've sat with cuz I've sat with that I've sat with cuz I've sat with that I've sat with cuz I've sat with probably a thousand plus pastors around probably a thousand plus pastors around probably a thousand plus pastors around the US at this point over the last 5 the US at this point over the last 5 the US at this point over the last 5 years is the bi-vocational ones are years is the bi-vocational ones are years is the bi-vocational ones are usually the ones preaching the the usually the ones preaching the the usually the ones preaching the the the most biblical theology. the most biblical theology. the most biblical theology. >> that. Yes, I've noticed that. >> that. Yes, I've noticed that. >> that. Yes, I've noticed that. >> Because their salary, their livelihood, >> Because their salary, their livelihood, >> Because their salary, their livelihood, their the food that sits in front of their the food that sits in front of their the food that sits in front of their kids is not dependent on this their kids is not dependent on this their kids is not dependent on this book. book. book. >> was Paul's model. He you know, the first >> was Paul's model. He you know, the first >> was Paul's model. He you know, the first great evangelist was making tents. great evangelist was making tents. great evangelist was making tents. >> Yeah. Well, and there's a there and you >> Yeah. Well, and there's a there and you >> Yeah. Well, and there's a there and you know, it's the Bible speaks about hey, know, it's the Bible speaks about hey, know, it's the Bible speaks about hey, if you if you make your living from from if you if you make your living from from if you if you make your living from from the gospel, you have your reward. the gospel, you have your reward. the gospel, you have your reward. You've been paid You've been paid your You've been paid You've been paid your You've been paid You've been paid your reward. reward. reward. And and I I want my my reward to be And and I I want my my reward to be And and I I want my my reward to be upstairs, you know. upstairs, you know. upstairs, you know. >> How do you >> How do you >> How do you the big denominations you think are less the big denominations you think are less the big denominations you think are less corrupt? corrupt? corrupt? >> No. >> No. >> No. The big I I wouldn't say that. The big The big I I wouldn't say that. The big The big I I wouldn't say that. The big denominations just have hierarchical denominations just have hierarchical denominations just have hierarchical oversight on the on the financials. And oversight on the on the financials. And oversight on the on the financials. And so so so um um um it used to it it does it does bring some it used to it it does it does bring some it used to it it does it does bring some accountability to the system, but it's accountability to the system, but it's accountability to the system, but it's not it's not quality accountability, but not it's not quality accountability, but not it's not quality accountability, but there is some structure.

there is some structure. there is some structure. Um like Method- Methodists, for example, Um like Method- Methodists, for example, Um like Method- Methodists, for example, you know you know you know um what your Methodist pastor makes. um what your Methodist pastor makes. um what your Methodist pastor makes. It's a baseline. And so you you're not It's a baseline. And so you you're not It's a baseline. And so you you're not joining the Methodist church to get joining the Methodist church to get joining the Methodist church to get rich. rich. rich. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Well, you're not No. >> Well, you're not No. >> Well, you're not No. >> But like Baptists have slipped a bit, >> But like Baptists have slipped a bit, >> But like Baptists have slipped a bit, you know? I know I know Baptist pastors you know? I know I know Baptist pastors you know? I know I know Baptist pastors that are very well off, you know? And that are very well off, you know? And that are very well off, you know? And >> How? >> How? >> How? >> Um >> Um >> Um just cuz they've kind of taken the just cuz they've kind of taken the just cuz they've kind of taken the non-denominational model. non-denominational model. non-denominational model. Uh a great example is there's a there's Uh a great example is there's a there's Uh a great example is there's a there's a a massive church. And And here's a a massive church. And And here's a a massive church. And And here's another example to the capitalist another example to the capitalist another example to the capitalist mindset. We remember when we talked mindset. We remember when we talked mindset. We remember when we talked about franchises, like Christianity's about franchises, like Christianity's about franchises, like Christianity's almost becoming franchises. So, when you almost becoming franchises. So, when you almost becoming franchises. So, when you bring really smart businessmen and women bring really smart businessmen and women bring really smart businessmen and women into leadership of these churches, into leadership of these churches, into leadership of these churches, they bring their capitalist business they bring their capitalist business they bring their capitalist business mindset into the machine. mindset into the machine. mindset into the machine. And it it's corrupting the machine. And And it it's corrupting the machine. And And it it's corrupting the machine. And what I mean by that is I'm going to give what I mean by that is I'm going to give what I mean by that is I'm going to give two examples. There's a two examples. There's a two examples. There's a There's a a very large church in There's a a very large church in There's a a very large church in Houston. Are you familiar with Second Houston. Are you familiar with Second Houston. Are you familiar with Second Baptist, right? So, that's a Baptist, right? So, that's a Baptist, right? So, that's a billion-dollar enterprise that's been billion-dollar enterprise that's been billion-dollar enterprise that's been funded by Houstonians for almost 100 funded by Houstonians for almost 100 funded by Houstonians for almost 100 years.

years. years. So, local So, local So, local Houston Christians generously gave to Houston Christians generously gave to Houston Christians generously gave to build this tradition, this awesome build this tradition, this awesome build this tradition, this awesome tradition. It's a school, it's a church, tradition. It's a school, it's a church, tradition. It's a school, it's a church, it's a lot of things. But, now it's all it's a lot of things. But, now it's all it's a lot of things. But, now it's all that power's been consolidated into six that power's been consolidated into six that power's been consolidated into six people's hands. And they can decide what people's hands. And they can decide what people's hands. And they can decide what to do with that billion in assets. They to do with that billion in assets. They to do with that billion in assets. They can move it out of state. They can sell can move it out of state. They can sell can move it out of state. They can sell off parts of it. And so, what I mean by off parts of it. And so, what I mean by off parts of it. And so, what I mean by that is when we franchise out that is when we franchise out that is when we franchise out Christianity, the resources don't stay Christianity, the resources don't stay Christianity, the resources don't stay in the town that funded it. in the town that funded it. in the town that funded it. And a great example is there's this And a great example is there's this And a great example is there's this small church in Sarasota that I visited, small church in Sarasota that I visited, small church in Sarasota that I visited, and it was acquired by a church in and it was acquired by a church in and it was acquired by a church in Dallas. Dallas. Dallas. And so, these individuals in Sarasota And so, these individuals in Sarasota And so, these individuals in Sarasota funded this building for years. funded this building for years. funded this building for years. And now the church in Dallas can just And now the church in Dallas can just And now the church in Dallas can just sell it off whenever it wants, and all sell it off whenever it wants, and all sell it off whenever it wants, and all that resource heads to Dallas. that resource heads to Dallas. that resource heads to Dallas. And so, the people in Sarasota, the And so, the people in Sarasota, the And so, the people in Sarasota, the Christians in Sarasota gave generously, Christians in Sarasota gave generously, Christians in Sarasota gave generously, and that's what I mean is all money and and that's what I mean is all money and and that's what I mean is all money and resource ends up siloing at the top now. resource ends up siloing at the top now. resource ends up siloing at the top now. >> Why would a church in Dallas want a >> Why would a church in Dallas want a >> Why would a church in Dallas want a church in Sarasota? church in Sarasota? church in Sarasota? >> I've got my opinion. I I think it's to >> I've got my opinion. I I think it's to >> I've got my opinion. I I think it's to justify the beachfront home in Florida. justify the beachfront home in Florida. justify the beachfront home in Florida. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Wow.

>> Wow. >> Wow. >> Yeah. But, but so, the the what I'm >> Yeah. But, but so, the the what I'm >> Yeah. But, but so, the the what I'm seeing is and what we're seeing is seeing is and what we're seeing is seeing is and what we're seeing is money's siloing at a national level. money's siloing at a national level. money's siloing at a national level. and then what does that mean? It means and then what does that mean? It means and then what does that mean? It means you can all of a sudden these national you can all of a sudden these national you can all of a sudden these national groups and these these these big groups and these these these big groups and these these these big conglomerates become what like become conglomerates become what like become conglomerates become what like become political apparatus basically. political apparatus basically. political apparatus basically. >> a surprising but I guess not really >> a surprising but I guess not really >> a surprising but I guess not really surprising to learn that what's surprising to learn that what's surprising to learn that what's happening to every other part of our happening to every other part of our happening to every other part of our society is happening to churches where society is happening to churches where society is happening to churches where your vet is now owned by some private your vet is now owned by some private your vet is now owned by some private equity concern out of New York and your equity concern out of New York and your equity concern out of New York and your stores in your town are gone because of stores in your town are gone because of stores in your town are gone because of Amazon and Walmart and like it it just Amazon and Walmart and like it it just Amazon and Walmart and like it it just the big things get bigger the small the big things get bigger the small the big things get bigger the small things disappear. things disappear. things disappear. >> We call it the Walmart effect in the >> We call it the Walmart effect in the >> We call it the Walmart effect in the religion business. When a mega church religion business. When a mega church religion business. When a mega church moves into a a town it it has to find moves into a a town it it has to find moves into a a town it it has to find consumers somewhere. consumers somewhere. consumers somewhere. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> So it looks so that it attracts you know >> So it looks so that it attracts you know >> So it looks so that it attracts you know there's everybody's not Christian. there's everybody's not Christian. there's everybody's not Christian. There's only so many Christians in in There's only so many Christians in in There's only so many Christians in in your town. So what happens is the the your town. So what happens is the the your town. So what happens is the the mega church draws mega church draws mega church draws Christians and consumers from the small Christians and consumers from the small Christians and consumers from the small churches, entertains them and bedazzles churches, entertains them and bedazzles churches, entertains them and bedazzles them and gives them a good sprinkle them and gives them a good sprinkle them and gives them a good sprinkle donut and then the small churches close donut and then the small churches close donut and then the small churches close and what happens is usually the Walmart and what happens is usually the Walmart and what happens is usually the Walmart moves on the mega church moves on the mega church moves on the mega church corrupts is usually a sex scandal or a corrupts is usually a sex scandal or a corrupts is usually a sex scandal or a financial scandal that shuts down and financial scandal that shuts down and financial scandal that shuts down and then there's no small churches anymore then there's no small churches anymore then there's no small churches anymore which were the backbone of the which were the backbone of the which were the backbone of the community.

community. community. And so the Walmart effect is in full And so the Walmart effect is in full And so the Walmart effect is in full effect. And there again, I don't want to effect. And there again, I don't want to effect. And there again, I don't want to just be an auditor. There's there's just be an auditor. There's there's just be an auditor. There's there's beautiful reform on the horizon because beautiful reform on the horizon because beautiful reform on the horizon because I'm seeing home churches spring up all I'm seeing home churches spring up all I'm seeing home churches spring up all over the all over the US. I'm seeing over the all over the US. I'm seeing over the all over the US. I'm seeing people actually go back to the small people actually go back to the small people actually go back to the small churches in their community because churches in their community because churches in their community because they're looking for authenticity. The they're looking for authenticity. The they're looking for authenticity. The the non-denominational kid me who who the non-denominational kid me who who the non-denominational kid me who who ran around on stage and did every you ran around on stage and did every you ran around on stage and did every you know goofy thing my church would put on know goofy thing my church would put on know goofy thing my church would put on and I had a great time is I'm I love and I had a great time is I'm I love and I had a great time is I'm I love exploring Catholicism and and Orthodoxy exploring Catholicism and and Orthodoxy exploring Catholicism and and Orthodoxy and I call it the kaleidoscope of and I call it the kaleidoscope of and I call it the kaleidoscope of Christianity because I want to see where Christianity because I want to see where Christianity because I want to see where every denomination every denomination every denomination um thrives and then where I think um thrives and then where I think um thrives and then where I think theological pinch points are cuz then I theological pinch points are cuz then I theological pinch points are cuz then I can build my own perspective on this on can build my own perspective on this on can build my own perspective on this on this book and now my faith is my own if this book and now my faith is my own if this book and now my faith is my own if that makes sense and so that makes sense and so that makes sense and so I love going to small churches now. Um I love going to small churches now. Um I love going to small churches now. Um it's kind of like my my jam. it's kind of like my my jam. it's kind of like my my jam. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Well, they're great. >> Well, they're great. >> Well, they're great. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> They're great. I've been to >> They're great. I've been to >> They're great. I've been to Yeah, regularly been to a church with Yeah, regularly been to a church with Yeah, regularly been to a church with three other people.

three other people. three other people. >> Mhm. And I'll tell you this the I I get >> Mhm. And I'll tell you this the I I get >> Mhm. And I'll tell you this the I I get arrested at at big churches. I get arrested at at big churches. I get arrested at at big churches. I get kicked out of big churches even when I'm kicked out of big churches even when I'm kicked out of big churches even when I'm just going to visit without cameras. If just going to visit without cameras. If just going to visit without cameras. If I just want to go see sit, but I have I just want to go see sit, but I have I just want to go see sit, but I have never had a bad experience ever at a never had a bad experience ever at a never had a bad experience ever at a small [laughter] church. small [laughter] church. small [laughter] church. >> agree. >> agree. >> agree. >> I usually have people come up and >> I usually have people come up and >> I usually have people come up and they're like, "Oh, you're the religion they're like, "Oh, you're the religion they're like, "Oh, you're the religion business guy." And they like hug me or business guy." And they like hug me or business guy." And they like hug me or want to you know, want to sit with us want to you know, want to sit with us want to you know, want to sit with us and it's it's awesome. And they're like, and it's it's awesome. And they're like, and it's it's awesome. And they're like, "Oh, you're great. Cool. Awesome." "Oh, you're great. Cool. Awesome." "Oh, you're great. Cool. Awesome." >> That's >> That's >> That's >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, last question which is like a big >> So, last question which is like a big >> So, last question which is like a big question. Well, it's a small topic, but question. Well, it's a small topic, but question. Well, it's a small topic, but I think it's a metaphor and it's about I think it's a metaphor and it's about I think it's a metaphor and it's about the treatment of Palestinian Christians the treatment of Palestinian Christians the treatment of Palestinian Christians which is how I got into all this drama which is how I got into all this drama which is how I got into all this drama in the first place because I just in the first place because I just in the first place because I just noticed that Christians noticed that Christians noticed that Christians in the United States some of whom loved in the United States some of whom loved in the United States some of whom loved Israel and that didn't bother me at all. Israel and that didn't bother me at all. Israel and that didn't bother me at all. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But we're going out of their way to >> But we're going out of their way to >> But we're going out of their way to ignore what was happening to their ignore what was happening to their ignore what was happening to their brothers in Christ in the Middle East brothers in Christ in the Middle East brothers in Christ in the Middle East and I was offended by that. And so began and I was offended by that. And so began and I was offended by that. And so began all of this, but um is that changing? all of this, but um is that changing? all of this, but um is that changing? Are you seeing greater concern from Are you seeing greater concern from Are you seeing greater concern from Christian churches about what's Christian churches about what's Christian churches about what's happening to Christians in the Middle happening to Christians in the Middle happening to Christians in the Middle East the Holy Land? East the Holy Land? East the Holy Land? >> I wouldn't I wouldn't say it it's >> I wouldn't I wouldn't say it it's >> I wouldn't I wouldn't say it it's changing at the the institutional level.

changing at the the institutional level. changing at the the institutional level. It's changing at the individual It's changing at the individual It's changing at the individual >> Is it? >> Is it? >> Is it? >> I think it is. Yeah. I I have um >> I think it is. Yeah. I I have um >> I think it is. Yeah. I I have um so many healthy conversations with so many healthy conversations with so many healthy conversations with my Christian brothers and sisters um my Christian brothers and sisters um my Christian brothers and sisters um about this topic in particular. about this topic in particular. about this topic in particular. And uh people are just Christians are And uh people are just Christians are And uh people are just Christians are waking up. waking up. waking up. And they don't really know where to go. And they don't really know where to go. And they don't really know where to go. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> it's it's when the scales fall off for >> it's it's when the scales fall off for >> it's it's when the scales fall off for the first time you're looking around and the first time you're looking around and the first time you're looking around and you're like, "Whoa. you're like, "Whoa. you're like, "Whoa. This is far more beautiful and far more This is far more beautiful and far more This is far more beautiful and far more complex than I realized." complex than I realized." complex than I realized." >> But it's um >> But it's um >> But it's um we as Christians can just look to the we as Christians can just look to the we as Christians can just look to the scripture and look to the Bible and say scripture and look to the Bible and say scripture and look to the Bible and say this is our road map. And that's it. And this is our road map. And that's it. And this is our road map. And that's it. And God will walk us out. And so I do think God will walk us out. And so I do think God will walk us out. And so I do think at the institutional level I haven't at the institutional level I haven't at the institutional level I haven't seen seen seen change, but at the individual level, change, but at the individual level, change, but at the individual level, I've seen massive massive theological I've seen massive massive theological I've seen massive massive theological change over the last couple of years. change over the last couple of years. change over the last couple of years. >> Really? >> Really? >> Really? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And who's leading that? >> And who's leading that? >> And who's leading that? >> Um >> Um >> Um >> Or people just independently coming to >> Or people just independently coming to >> Or people just independently coming to >> I'm going to say watchman on the wall. >> I'm going to say watchman on the wall. >> I'm going to say watchman on the wall. Like there's there's a lot of people out Like there's there's a lot of people out Like there's there's a lot of people out there that are digging and then they'll there that are digging and then they'll there that are digging and then they'll put their they'll put their research put their they'll put their research put their they'll put their research online. They'll put it on social media. online. They'll put it on social media. online. They'll put it on social media. Um they'll reach out to us. I'm I'm just Um they'll reach out to us. I'm I'm just Um they'll reach out to us. I'm I'm just one of many. We're just one of many that one of many. We're just one of many that one of many. We're just one of many that are starting to um are starting to um are starting to um pick up the Bible and say let's read pick up the Bible and say let's read pick up the Bible and say let's read this cover to cover and this cover to cover and this cover to cover and >> It used to be that the critics of >> It used to be that the critics of >> It used to be that the critics of Christian churches in the United States Christian churches in the United States Christian churches in the United States of their corruption, of their scandals of their corruption, of their scandals of their corruption, of their scandals were all anti-Christian.

were all anti-Christian. were all anti-Christian. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So it was a way to undermine it. You >> So it was a way to undermine it. You >> So it was a way to undermine it. You know, the Boston Globe with its know, the Boston Globe with its know, the Boston Globe with its Spotlight series. You really got the Spotlight series. You really got the Spotlight series. You really got the sense like sense like sense like they just hate the Catholic Church for they just hate the Catholic Church for they just hate the Catholic Church for other reasons. other reasons. other reasons. Which I think is true, but um now you're Which I think is true, but um now you're Which I think is true, but um now you're seeing criticism seeing criticism seeing criticism of this kind of behavior, of church of this kind of behavior, of church of this kind of behavior, of church behavior from people who are mad because behavior from people who are mad because behavior from people who are mad because they're really sincere Christians. they're really sincere Christians. they're really sincere Christians. >> Mhm. And I even have massive like I >> Mhm. And I even have massive like I >> Mhm. And I even have massive like I There's a pastor who's been on your There's a pastor who's been on your There's a pastor who's been on your show. Uh great guy. He's a good friend show. Uh great guy. He's a good friend show. Uh great guy. He's a good friend of mine. And uh we're developing a of mine. And uh we're developing a of mine. And uh we're developing a relationship and he he he's he's he relationship and he he he's he's he relationship and he he he's he's he works at a very large church, one of the works at a very large church, one of the works at a very large church, one of the biggest in the US. And he none of what I biggest in the US. And he none of what I biggest in the US. And he none of what I say scares him. He's like, I agree with say scares him. He's like, I agree with say scares him. He's like, I agree with everything. everything. everything. >> Really? >> Really? >> Really? >> Yeah. And I'm like, awesome. So even >> Yeah. And I'm like, awesome. So even >> Yeah. And I'm like, awesome. So even even at the pastoral level, there's even at the pastoral level, there's even at the pastoral level, there's starting to be a shift where they're starting to be a shift where they're starting to be a shift where they're like, we should be the beacon of truth like, we should be the beacon of truth like, we should be the beacon of truth [laughter] and the beacon of light and [laughter] and the beacon of light and [laughter] and the beacon of light and transparency. transparency. transparency. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And so I think there's going to become a >> And so I think there's going to become a >> And so I think there's going to become a tipping there's going to be a tipping tipping there's going to be a tipping tipping there's going to be a tipping point in the next 6 to 12 months where point in the next 6 to 12 months where point in the next 6 to 12 months where the whole machine the apparatus starts the whole machine the apparatus starts the whole machine the apparatus starts steering away. steering away. steering away. >> Well, Sue, >> Well, Sue, >> Well, Sue, to me it's a tip-off is defensiveness. to me it's a tip-off is defensiveness. to me it's a tip-off is defensiveness. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> We're all defensive when called out on >> We're all defensive when called out on >> We're all defensive when called out on what we're doing wrong. I certainly am.

what we're doing wrong. I certainly am. what we're doing wrong. I certainly am. But we're not supposed to be. But we're not supposed to be. But we're not supposed to be. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And we're number one called to humility. >> And we're number one called to humility. >> And we're number one called to humility. That's like the That's like the That's like the >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> ticket price for admission, I think is >> ticket price for admission, I think is >> ticket price for admission, I think is you know, we're screwed up and need you know, we're screwed up and need you know, we're screwed up and need help. help. help. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> That's why we're here. >> That's why we're here. >> That's why we're here. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So >> So >> So to hear that people are willing to to hear that people are willing to to hear that people are willing to acknowledge what they're doing wrong acknowledge what they're doing wrong acknowledge what they're doing wrong without being defensive seems like the without being defensive seems like the without being defensive seems like the best sign ever. best sign ever. best sign ever. >> It's I'm really excited and I think >> It's I'm really excited and I think >> It's I'm really excited and I think could you and I both agree that we sit could you and I both agree that we sit could you and I both agree that we sit here as here as here as as men who are evil like at our core and as men who are evil like at our core and as men who are evil like at our core and Christ gave us the example to chase Christ gave us the example to chase Christ gave us the example to chase after after after and I think if we can get more people and I think if we can get more people and I think if we can get more people around the table with that as the around the table with that as the around the table with that as the baseline baseline baseline then we can look at the institutions my then we can look at the institutions my then we can look at the institutions my own institutions the the corporation own institutions the the corporation own institutions the the corporation that we built on top of the religion that we built on top of the religion that we built on top of the religion business we're looking at cuz we're like business we're looking at cuz we're like business we're looking at cuz we're like is this the best vehicle like to do what is this the best vehicle like to do what is this the best vehicle like to do what we need to do we don't think it is we need to do we don't think it is we need to do we don't think it is right we want to be we want to be the right we want to be we want to be the right we want to be we want to be the beacon of transparency so beacon of transparency so beacon of transparency so >> Do you ever go to an AA meeting? >> Do you ever go to an AA meeting? >> Do you ever go to an AA meeting? >> No. >> No. >> No. >> You got to go to an AA meeting. You >> You got to go to an AA meeting. You >> You got to go to an AA meeting. You don't need to be an alcoholic to to don't need to be an alcoholic to to don't need to be an alcoholic to to enjoy the beauty of an AA meeting. I enjoy the beauty of an AA meeting. I enjoy the beauty of an AA meeting. I don't want to drink but I still like I don't want to drink but I still like I don't want to drink but I still like I love AA meetings because love AA meetings because love AA meetings because the the the the price of being able to speak is the price of being able to speak is the price of being able to speak is admitting in public how screwed up you admitting in public how screwed up you admitting in public how screwed up you are and it just changes the vibe are and it just changes the vibe are and it just changes the vibe completely. Like there's no hierarchy at completely. Like there's no hierarchy at completely. Like there's no hierarchy at all.

all. all. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The one thing that unites every person >> The one thing that unites every person >> The one thing that unites every person in the room is their common flaw. in the room is their common flaw. in the room is their common flaw. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> And it's that's the basis of like truth >> And it's that's the basis of like truth >> And it's that's the basis of like truth and love right and love right and love right >> So what happens if the church >> So what happens if the church >> So what happens if the church took that model and said okay let's all took that model and said okay let's all took that model and said okay let's all gather around this table we're we're all gather around this table we're we're all gather around this table we're we're all POS's let's just admit that okay how do POS's let's just admit that okay how do POS's let's just admit that okay how do we fix this right how do we fix what we fix this right how do we fix what we fix this right how do we fix what we've built I think it would be the most we've built I think it would be the most we've built I think it would be the most collaborative um fulfilling experience collaborative um fulfilling experience collaborative um fulfilling experience for for for >> agree. >> agree. >> agree. >> pastors big pastors alike. >> pastors big pastors alike. >> pastors big pastors alike. >> I totally agree. >> I totally agree. >> I totally agree. >> So let's get that together up. >> So let's get that together up. >> So let's get that together up. >> You should go to an AA meeting and and I >> You should go to an AA meeting and and I >> You should go to an AA meeting and and I don't go often enough but occasionally I don't go often enough but occasionally I don't go often enough but occasionally I go and there's like there's always the go and there's like there's always the go and there's like there's always the guy who's like still shaking you know guy who's like still shaking you know guy who's like still shaking you know he's just got off it and then there's he's just got off it and then there's he's just got off it and then there's the guy who's the guy who's the guy who's you know been off for 40 years and he's you know been off for 40 years and he's you know been off for 40 years and he's like got his life together he's maybe like got his life together he's maybe like got his life together he's maybe rich and they're exactly the same. rich and they're exactly the same. rich and they're exactly the same. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> As people as we all are every person is >> As people as we all are every person is >> As people as we all are every person is united in united in united in >> Well that's why Christ crushed >> Well that's why Christ crushed >> Well that's why Christ crushed hierarchies. hierarchies. hierarchies. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> He's like all all of you guys are the >> He's like all all of you guys are the >> He's like all all of you guys are the same there's no hierarchy except the same there's no hierarchy except the same there's no hierarchy except the father we got one good teacher, you father we got one good teacher, you father we got one good teacher, you know, and it's but we've built know, and it's but we've built know, and it's but we've built hierarchies again on top of Christ. I I hierarchies again on top of Christ. I I hierarchies again on top of Christ. I I I say, um, you know, prior to the I say, um, you know, prior to the I say, um, you know, prior to the Reformation, there was one church, this Reformation, there was one church, this Reformation, there was one church, this monarchical Roman Catholic Church. And monarchical Roman Catholic Church. And monarchical Roman Catholic Church. And the Reformation, Calvin, Zwingli, you the Reformation, Calvin, Zwingli, you the Reformation, Calvin, Zwingli, you know, Luther, they came in and they they know, Luther, they came in and they they know, Luther, they came in and they they the leaders of the the the leaders of the leaders of the the the leaders of the leaders of the the the leaders of the Reformation really shook the church.

the Reformation really shook the church. the Reformation really shook the church. And all we did though, they didn't shake And all we did though, they didn't shake And all we did though, they didn't shake they shook everything except one thing. they shook everything except one thing. they shook everything except one thing. They didn't shake the institutional They didn't shake the institutional They didn't shake the institutional structure. structure. structure. And so what happened was, the And so what happened was, the And so what happened was, the Reformation came through, they broke the Reformation came through, they broke the Reformation came through, they broke the stained glass, they burned cathedrals stained glass, they burned cathedrals stained glass, they burned cathedrals down, you know, they're like, "We're down, you know, they're like, "We're down, you know, they're like, "We're going to do it differently," which was going to do it differently," which was going to do it differently," which was awesome, good intention. But as they awesome, good intention. But as they awesome, good intention. But as they came over to America, we just built the came over to America, we just built the came over to America, we just built the same structure again. We built a same structure again. We built a same structure again. We built a non-transparent, non-transparent, non-transparent, unaccountable, financially hungry unaccountable, financially hungry unaccountable, financially hungry machine with usually one person at the machine with usually one person at the machine with usually one person at the head. head. head. So, I always tell people we have 400,000 So, I always tell people we have 400,000 So, I always tell people we have 400,000 mini Vaticans in America now. There's mini Vaticans in America now. There's mini Vaticans in America now. There's 400,000 estimated 400,000 churches. 400,000 estimated 400,000 churches. 400,000 estimated 400,000 churches. We've just built 400,000 mini Vaticans. We've just built 400,000 mini Vaticans. We've just built 400,000 mini Vaticans. Right? And so we just built hierarchy Right? And so we just built hierarchy Right? And so we just built hierarchy again. again. again. And it's like, "No, we got to we got to And it's like, "No, we got to we got to And it's like, "No, we got to we got to crush all of them." crush all of them." crush all of them." >> I agree. >> I agree. >> I agree. >> I agree with that. I agree with that >> I agree with that. I agree with that >> I agree with that. I agree with that absolutely vehemently. Thank you for absolutely vehemently. Thank you for absolutely vehemently. Thank you for this film and for all the work that this film and for all the work that this film and for all the work that you've done on it. you've done on it. you've done on it. >> Thank you for having me, Tucker. >> Thank you for having me, Tucker. >> Thank you for having me, Tucker. >> On this topic, despite the abuse you've >> On this topic, despite the abuse you've >> On this topic, despite the abuse you've taken. taken. taken. >> Yeah. Thank you.