How These Four Families Fought for Justice for Their Loved Ones

Hi, crime junkies. With the Fourth of Hi, crime junkies. With the Fourth of July weekend almost here, we wanted to July weekend almost here, we wanted to July weekend almost here, we wanted to revisit a few stories that remind us why revisit a few stories that remind us why revisit a few stories that remind us why the fight for justice never stops. One the fight for justice never stops. One the fight for justice never stops. One thing all of these cases have in common thing all of these cases have in common thing all of these cases have in common is that the people at the heart of them is that the people at the heart of them is that the people at the heart of them refuse to accept that's just the way it refuse to accept that's just the way it refuse to accept that's just the way it is. Whether they're demanding answers, is. Whether they're demanding answers, is. Whether they're demanding answers, exposing failures in an investigation, exposing failures in an investigation, exposing failures in an investigation, pushing for new laws, or making sure a pushing for new laws, or making sure a pushing for new laws, or making sure a victim's name is never forgotten, these victim's name is never forgotten, these victim's name is never forgotten, these families and advocates remind us that families and advocates remind us that families and advocates remind us that real change often starts with someone real change often starts with someone real change often starts with someone refusing to give up. And every time refusing to give up. And every time refusing to give up. And every time someone speaks up, every time a someone speaks up, every time a someone speaks up, every time a community keeps asking questions, every community keeps asking questions, every community keeps asking questions, every time a broken system is challenged, time a broken system is challenged, time a broken system is challenged, there's hope. hope for better there's hope. hope for better there's hope. hope for better investigations, better technology, investigations, better technology, investigations, better technology, better laws, and more justice for better laws, and more justice for better laws, and more justice for victims and their families. So, today victims and their families. So, today victims and their families. So, today we're revisiting a few Crime Junkie we're revisiting a few Crime Junkie we're revisiting a few Crime Junkie episodes that remind us that progress episodes that remind us that progress episodes that remind us that progress doesn't happen on its own. It happens doesn't happen on its own. It happens doesn't happen on its own. It happens because people keep asking questions, because people keep asking questions, because people keep asking questions, demanding answers, and refusing to give demanding answers, and refusing to give demanding answers, and refusing to give up. Let's dive in.

Hope you like it, Big Papa. You going to Hope you like it, Big Papa. You going to get what's coming to you, you son of a get what's coming to you, you son of a get what's coming to you, you son of a >> You're not above the wall. >> You're not above the wall. >> You're not above the wall. >> If you've never heard of Amber Sprdlin's >> If you've never heard of Amber Sprdlin's >> If you've never heard of Amber Sprdlin's case, well then you're probably not from case, well then you're probably not from case, well then you're probably not from Eastern Kentucky because in Floyd Eastern Kentucky because in Floyd Eastern Kentucky because in Floyd County, this case is all people are County, this case is all people are County, this case is all people are talking about. For over a year, this talking about. For over a year, this talking about. For over a year, this could have been considered a who done could have been considered a who done could have been considered a who done it. Six people went into a house, one it. Six people went into a house, one it. Six people went into a house, one ends up dead, one is covered in blood ends up dead, one is covered in blood ends up dead, one is covered in blood and failed a polygraph. The one with and failed a polygraph. The one with and failed a polygraph. The one with scratches left the house right around scratches left the house right around scratches left the house right around when the murder is thought to have when the murder is thought to have when the murder is thought to have happened. Two others don't seem to be happened. Two others don't seem to be happened. Two others don't seem to be talking to police at all. And at least talking to police at all. And at least talking to police at all. And at least one is talking, but says that when she one is talking, but says that when she one is talking, but says that when she went to bed that night, everyone was went to bed that night, everyone was went to bed that night, everyone was fine. And a camera that was pointed fine. And a camera that was pointed fine. And a camera that was pointed right at where the crime took place and right at where the crime took place and right at where the crime took place and should have made this an openand-shut should have made this an openand-shut should have made this an openand-shut case is missing. But some people in town case is missing. But some people in town case is missing. But some people in town never considered this a who done it. never considered this a who done it. never considered this a who done it. They believe that the person police They believe that the person police They believe that the person police arrested, the one that's about to go to arrested, the one that's about to go to arrested, the one that's about to go to trial here any day, did the crime he's trial here any day, did the crime he's trial here any day, did the crime he's charged with, a brutal murder of a young charged with, a brutal murder of a young charged with, a brutal murder of a young woman who had already been dealt one of woman who had already been dealt one of woman who had already been dealt one of the toughest hands in life. But there the toughest hands in life. But there the toughest hands in life. But there are still so many questions. Mainly, are still so many questions. Mainly, are still so many questions. Mainly, why? 38-year-old Amber Sprdlin hardly why? 38-year-old Amber Sprdlin hardly why? 38-year-old Amber Sprdlin hardly knew these people. Why would someone knew these people. Why would someone knew these people. Why would someone slit her throat, stab her in the face, slit her throat, stab her in the face, slit her throat, stab her in the face, and leave her dead, covered in blood on and leave her dead, covered in blood on and leave her dead, covered in blood on the couch till morning? And why would a the couch till morning? And why would a the couch till morning? And why would a police chief unconnected to the police chief unconnected to the police chief unconnected to the investigation allegedly tell Amber's

investigation allegedly tell Amber's investigation allegedly tell Amber's family that she wasn't murdered at all family that she wasn't murdered at all family that she wasn't murdered at all and just died by aspiration? Something and just died by aspiration? Something and just died by aspiration? Something in Floyd County stinks. And based on in Floyd County stinks. And based on in Floyd County stinks. And based on what we found, this might just be what we found, this might just be what we found, this might just be scratching the surface of what's been scratching the surface of what's been scratching the surface of what's been happening there. So, with the trial happening there. So, with the trial happening there. So, with the trial right around the corner, we're trying to right around the corner, we're trying to right around the corner, we're trying to make sense of what happened to Amber make sense of what happened to Amber make sense of what happened to Amber Bradlin that night in June of 2023. Amber Sprdlin had a tough childhood. Her Amber Sprdlin had a tough childhood. Her mom and sister died when she was young, mom and sister died when she was young, mom and sister died when she was young, and she was barely into her 20s when she and she was barely into her 20s when she and she was barely into her 20s when she lost her dad. And as you can imagine, lost her dad. And as you can imagine, lost her dad. And as you can imagine, all of that trauma left her with pretty all of that trauma left her with pretty all of that trauma left her with pretty severe and sometimes debilitating severe and sometimes debilitating severe and sometimes debilitating anxiety and depression. But the family anxiety and depression. But the family anxiety and depression. But the family that she did have left, her that she did have left, her that she did have left, her grandparents, her aunt Missy, her cousin grandparents, her aunt Missy, her cousin grandparents, her aunt Missy, her cousin Debbie, they had all really taken Amber Debbie, they had all really taken Amber Debbie, they had all really taken Amber under their wings. And actually, up under their wings. And actually, up under their wings. And actually, up until recently, Amber lived with her until recently, Amber lived with her until recently, Amber lived with her grandparents. But when they two passed grandparents. But when they two passed grandparents. But when they two passed away, Amber felt like it was time for away, Amber felt like it was time for away, Amber felt like it was time for her to step out from under her family's her to step out from under her family's her to step out from under her family's wings and finally spread her own. By wings and finally spread her own. By wings and finally spread her own. By 2023, at the age of 38, Amber had 2023, at the age of 38, Amber had 2023, at the age of 38, Amber had finally gotten her own place and found a finally gotten her own place and found a finally gotten her own place and found a part-time job as a hostess at a popular part-time job as a hostess at a popular part-time job as a hostess at a popular restaurant in Prestonburg, Kentucky, restaurant in Prestonburg, Kentucky, restaurant in Prestonburg, Kentucky, where she lived. Now, I mean, this was a where she lived. Now, I mean, this was a where she lived. Now, I mean, this was a bit 0 to 60. So, Aunt Missy decides that bit 0 to 60. So, Aunt Missy decides that bit 0 to 60. So, Aunt Missy decides that it would be best to keep a close eye on it would be best to keep a close eye on it would be best to keep a close eye on Amber just to make sure she was safe.

Amber just to make sure she was safe. Amber just to make sure she was safe. So, she had security cameras installed So, she had security cameras installed So, she had security cameras installed at Amber's new house to do just that. at Amber's new house to do just that. at Amber's new house to do just that. And Amber was great about communication, And Amber was great about communication, And Amber was great about communication, too. I mean, she is nothing if not too. I mean, she is nothing if not too. I mean, she is nothing if not predictable. and keeping a strict predictable. and keeping a strict predictable. and keeping a strict routine is super important to her. So, routine is super important to her. So, routine is super important to her. So, she made a call every morning to her she made a call every morning to her she made a call every morning to her aunt at 9:00 a.m. and they would aunt at 9:00 a.m. and they would aunt at 9:00 a.m. and they would exchange even more calls throughout the exchange even more calls throughout the exchange even more calls throughout the day. So, when Amber doesn't call Missy day. So, when Amber doesn't call Missy day. So, when Amber doesn't call Missy on Sunday, June 18th, this bad feeling on Sunday, June 18th, this bad feeling on Sunday, June 18th, this bad feeling washes over her right away. Missy checks washes over her right away. Missy checks washes over her right away. Missy checks the footage from Amber's place and she the footage from Amber's place and she the footage from Amber's place and she can see her leaving for work Saturday can see her leaving for work Saturday can see her leaving for work Saturday evening. But as she scrolls through evening. But as she scrolls through evening. But as she scrolls through later that night, when she knew Amber later that night, when she knew Amber later that night, when she knew Amber should be home from work, then beyond should be home from work, then beyond should be home from work, then beyond all the way till she sees daylight, all the way till she sees daylight, all the way till she sees daylight, Amber never shows back up on screen. And Amber never shows back up on screen. And Amber never shows back up on screen. And right away, Missy calls Debbie to tell right away, Missy calls Debbie to tell right away, Missy calls Debbie to tell her what's going on. And Debbie has that her what's going on. And Debbie has that her what's going on. And Debbie has that same immediate sinking feeling. same immediate sinking feeling. same immediate sinking feeling. Something is wrong, and they just know Something is wrong, and they just know Something is wrong, and they just know it. Now, Debbie isn't in town. She's on it. Now, Debbie isn't in town. She's on it. Now, Debbie isn't in town. She's on this little getaway 90 minutes away with this little getaway 90 minutes away with this little getaway 90 minutes away with her fianceé, Brandon. But that doesn't her fianceé, Brandon. But that doesn't her fianceé, Brandon. But that doesn't stop her from jumping right into action.

stop her from jumping right into action. stop her from jumping right into action. Brandon's brother is with the Kentucky Brandon's brother is with the Kentucky Brandon's brother is with the Kentucky State Police. So Brandon actually calls State Police. So Brandon actually calls State Police. So Brandon actually calls him to tell him Amber's missing. And him to tell him Amber's missing. And him to tell him Amber's missing. And about 10 minutes later, he gets a call about 10 minutes later, he gets a call about 10 minutes later, he gets a call back and what comes out of his brother's back and what comes out of his brother's back and what comes out of his brother's mouth leaves everyone stunned. Amber mouth leaves everyone stunned. Amber mouth leaves everyone stunned. Amber isn't missing. She's been murdered. Now, isn't missing. She's been murdered. Now, isn't missing. She's been murdered. Now, he can't give them much more. I mean, he can't give them much more. I mean, he can't give them much more. I mean, the only reason he knows anything about the only reason he knows anything about the only reason he knows anything about Amber's death is because his agency is Amber's death is because his agency is Amber's death is because his agency is handling the investigation. So Debbie handling the investigation. So Debbie handling the investigation. So Debbie and Brandon immediately hop in their car and Brandon immediately hop in their car and Brandon immediately hop in their car and fly back to Prestonburg. And by the and fly back to Prestonburg. And by the and fly back to Prestonburg. And by the time they get there, basically everyone time they get there, basically everyone time they get there, basically everyone in the family has come together. But no in the family has come together. But no in the family has come together. But no one knows anything more. I mean, the one knows anything more. I mean, the one knows anything more. I mean, the wild part is that they're not even wild part is that they're not even wild part is that they're not even supposed to know what little they do, supposed to know what little they do, supposed to know what little they do, >> right? That's like just through like >> right? That's like just through like >> right? That's like just through like back channels because they know a back channels because they know a back channels because they know a person, person, person, >> right? No one in any official capacity >> right? No one in any official capacity >> right? No one in any official capacity on the case has notified them, anyone in on the case has notified them, anyone in on the case has notified them, anyone in their family, about what's going on. But their family, about what's going on. But their family, about what's going on. But thank God for Brandon's brother. So he thank God for Brandon's brother. So he thank God for Brandon's brother. So he comes over to give them like the few comes over to give them like the few comes over to give them like the few tidbits of information that he does here tidbits of information that he does here tidbits of information that he does here and he tells them that apparently Amber and he tells them that apparently Amber and he tells them that apparently Amber went out the night before and she was went out the night before and she was went out the night before and she was murdered by one of the men she was with.

murdered by one of the men she was with. murdered by one of the men she was with. So desperate for any help they can get, So desperate for any help they can get, So desperate for any help they can get, they reach out to a family friend that's they reach out to a family friend that's they reach out to a family friend that's retired from the state police and he retired from the state police and he retired from the state police and he goes on to like make some calls to see goes on to like make some calls to see goes on to like make some calls to see if he can find out more information. And if he can find out more information. And if he can find out more information. And what he ends up telling them is even what he ends up telling them is even what he ends up telling them is even more confusing. Debbie says that this more confusing. Debbie says that this more confusing. Debbie says that this guy called the Prestonburg police chief, guy called the Prestonburg police chief, guy called the Prestonburg police chief, this guy named Randy Woods, and Randy this guy named Randy Woods, and Randy this guy named Randy Woods, and Randy told him that Amber wasn't murdered. told him that Amber wasn't murdered. told him that Amber wasn't murdered. He's like, "She is dead, but she died He's like, "She is dead, but she died He's like, "She is dead, but she died because she aspirated, which is because she aspirated, which is because she aspirated, which is basically like if food or something like basically like if food or something like basically like if food or something like enters your airway and you stop enters your airway and you stop enters your airway and you stop breathing, like that sort of thing." So, breathing, like that sort of thing." So, breathing, like that sort of thing." So, Chief Woods is saying that this was an Chief Woods is saying that this was an Chief Woods is saying that this was an accident. And according to Debbie, he accident. And according to Debbie, he accident. And according to Debbie, he told this friend to tell the family that told this friend to tell the family that told this friend to tell the family that they should all just settle down. they should all just settle down. they should all just settle down. >> I'm sorry. >> I'm sorry. >> I'm sorry. settle down. Like they were told that settle down. Like they were told that settle down. Like they were told that she's murdered and now but she died by she's murdered and now but she died by she's murdered and now but she died by accident. Like this family has every accident. Like this family has every accident. Like this family has every right to not be settled right to not be settled right to not be settled >> and they and is getting no information. >> and they and is getting no information. >> and they and is getting no information. >> Well, and also I thought this was a >> Well, and also I thought this was a >> Well, and also I thought this was a state police investigation. Why is the state police investigation. Why is the state police investigation. Why is the chief of the Prestonburg Police chief of the Prestonburg Police chief of the Prestonburg Police Department, different agency, telling Department, different agency, telling Department, different agency, telling them to settle down? He's like not even them to settle down? He's like not even them to settle down? He's like not even involved, right?

involved, right? involved, right? >> Well, so this is a very small town and >> Well, so this is a very small town and >> Well, so this is a very small town and there's a lot of overlap between there's a lot of overlap between there's a lot of overlap between agencies. like they often do help each agencies. like they often do help each agencies. like they often do help each other out. They respond based on just other out. They respond based on just other out. They respond based on just who's available, it seems like. who's available, it seems like. who's available, it seems like. >> And Kentucky State Police handles a lot >> And Kentucky State Police handles a lot >> And Kentucky State Police handles a lot of the suspicious death investigations of the suspicious death investigations of the suspicious death investigations in smaller towns like Prestonburg and in smaller towns like Prestonburg and in smaller towns like Prestonburg and Martin, which is where the house ends up Martin, which is where the house ends up Martin, which is where the house ends up being that she's at. But being that she's at. But being that she's at. But >> it's a little messy because like just a >> it's a little messy because like just a >> it's a little messy because like just a quick side story. So the 911 service in quick side story. So the 911 service in quick side story. So the 911 service in Floyd County, it was in flux at the Floyd County, it was in flux at the Floyd County, it was in flux at the time. So the Kentucky State Police had time. So the Kentucky State Police had time. So the Kentucky State Police had handled the 911 services for the county handled the 911 services for the county handled the 911 services for the county for a long time. But for just the year for a long time. But for just the year for a long time. But for just the year before, county officials had decided to before, county officials had decided to before, county officials had decided to switch its emergency call center to switch its emergency call center to switch its emergency call center to Prestonburg because it would be less Prestonburg because it would be less Prestonburg because it would be less expensive. So like this process is just expensive. So like this process is just expensive. So like this process is just a little bit a little bit a little bit >> there's like a lot of like moving parts >> there's like a lot of like moving parts >> there's like a lot of like moving parts that like haven't been moving for that that like haven't been moving for that that like haven't been moving for that long, long, long, >> right? Like this guy still isn't in >> right? Like this guy still isn't in >> right? Like this guy still isn't in charge and the family doesn't know what charge and the family doesn't know what charge and the family doesn't know what to believe. Like they want to hear to believe. Like they want to hear to believe. Like they want to hear something straight from KSP. No back something straight from KSP. No back something straight from KSP. No back channeling, which by the way, they've channeling, which by the way, they've channeling, which by the way, they've been trying to make contact with someone been trying to make contact with someone been trying to make contact with someone all day. It's their inability to all day. It's their inability to all day. It's their inability to actually get someone official to talk to actually get someone official to talk to actually get someone official to talk to them that was like necessitating all them that was like necessitating all them that was like necessitating all this back channeling. But finally, not this back channeling. But finally, not this back channeling. But finally, not long before midnight, Missy reaches long before midnight, Missy reaches long before midnight, Missy reaches someone at the state police post and someone at the state police post and someone at the state police post and gives them an earful, explaining that gives them an earful, explaining that gives them an earful, explaining that they have been hearing rumors all day.

they have been hearing rumors all day. they have been hearing rumors all day. They just need to know what's going on. They just need to know what's going on. They just need to know what's going on. No one has been in contact with them. No one has been in contact with them. No one has been in contact with them. And whoever she talks to like must not And whoever she talks to like must not And whoever she talks to like must not be able to give her the answers then or be able to give her the answers then or be able to give her the answers then or doesn't want to because they have to doesn't want to because they have to doesn't want to because they have to call her back. And that happens a few call her back. And that happens a few call her back. And that happens a few hours later. That's when a detective hours later. That's when a detective hours later. That's when a detective finally gets in touch and says that finally gets in touch and says that finally gets in touch and says that Amber has been murdered. Amber has been murdered. Amber has been murdered. >> I'm sorry. This is going back and forth. >> I'm sorry. This is going back and forth. >> I'm sorry. This is going back and forth. Like, what is happening? Like, what is happening? Like, what is happening? >> They're still not being told anything >> They're still not being told anything >> They're still not being told anything yet, but she obviously didn't aspirate. yet, but she obviously didn't aspirate. yet, but she obviously didn't aspirate. And her body is being sent to the state And her body is being sent to the state And her body is being sent to the state medical examiner. So, they do say that medical examiner. So, they do say that medical examiner. So, they do say that they'll know more soon and the case is they'll know more soon and the case is they'll know more soon and the case is under investigation by the Kentucky under investigation by the Kentucky under investigation by the Kentucky State Police. Period. State Police. Period. State Police. Period. >> And then >> And then >> And then >> and nothing. The family is left super in >> and nothing. The family is left super in >> and nothing. The family is left super in the dark. They just know that Amber left the dark. They just know that Amber left the dark. They just know that Amber left her place for work Saturday night and by her place for work Saturday night and by her place for work Saturday night and by Sunday morning, she's been murdered. Sunday morning, she's been murdered. Sunday morning, she's been murdered. Where did it happen? What happened? Did Where did it happen? What happened? Did Where did it happen? What happened? Did the police have suspects? They were left the police have suspects? They were left the police have suspects? They were left to guess all of that while they waited to guess all of that while they waited to guess all of that while they waited for updates. Little did they know, for updates. Little did they know, for updates. Little did they know, though, right from the jump, state though, right from the jump, state though, right from the jump, state police actually had all of that and police actually had all of that and police actually had all of that and some, because they had been working the some, because they had been working the some, because they had been working the case since just after 10:30 a.m. that case since just after 10:30 a.m. that case since just after 10:30 a.m. that Sunday morning. And it all started with Sunday morning. And it all started with Sunday morning. And it all started with a 911 call from the home that Amber a 911 call from the home that Amber a 911 call from the home that Amber would be found in. That home is in the would be found in. That home is in the would be found in. That home is in the town of Martin, Kentucky, and it town of Martin, Kentucky, and it town of Martin, Kentucky, and it belonged to then 55-year-old Dr. Michael belonged to then 55-year-old Dr. Michael belonged to then 55-year-old Dr. Michael McKenna II. The doctor is the one who McKenna II. The doctor is the one who McKenna II. The doctor is the one who placed the call. And I'm going to read placed the call. And I'm going to read placed the call. And I'm going to read the transcript of it. That was included

the transcript of it. That was included the transcript of it. That was included in a court filing. Now, the public in a court filing. Now, the public in a court filing. Now, the public hasn't heard this call yet. I haven't hasn't heard this call yet. I haven't hasn't heard this call yet. I haven't heard this call yet. So, I'm just going heard this call yet. So, I'm just going heard this call yet. So, I'm just going to read it pretty flat because I don't to read it pretty flat because I don't to read it pretty flat because I don't know what the tone was. But, I'm going know what the tone was. But, I'm going know what the tone was. But, I'm going to have you read for the 911 dispatcher to have you read for the 911 dispatcher to have you read for the 911 dispatcher and I'll read for Michael. and I'll read for Michael. and I'll read for Michael. >> 911. Where is your emergency? >> 911. Where is your emergency? >> 911. Where is your emergency? >> Yes. So, my name is Michael McKini. I'm >> Yes. So, my name is Michael McKini. I'm >> Yes. So, my name is Michael McKini. I'm at Arkansas Road. at Arkansas Road. at Arkansas Road. >> Yes. I had some people come back to my >> Yes. I had some people come back to my >> Yes. I had some people come back to my house last night and there's a girl on house last night and there's a girl on house last night and there's a girl on my couch that's dead. my couch that's dead. my couch that's dead. >> Arkansas Creek. >> Arkansas Creek. >> Arkansas Creek. >> Yes. So, I need some assistance. >> Yes. So, I need some assistance. >> Yes. So, I need some assistance. >> All right, I'll get everybody out there. >> That's my cell. Yes. >> That's my cell. Yes. >> Do you know who the female is? >> Do you know who the female is? >> Do you know who the female is? >> Roy, what's her name? What's her name? I >> Roy, what's her name? What's her name? I >> Roy, what's her name? What's her name? I know it's Amber, but what's And then uh know it's Amber, but what's And then uh know it's Amber, but what's And then uh Roy jumps in here. Amber Sprdlin. Amber Roy jumps in here. Amber Sprdlin. Amber Roy jumps in here. Amber Sprdlin. Amber Sprdlin. Sprdlin. Sprdlin. Is it obvious or was it you think it's Is it obvious or was it you think it's Is it obvious or was it you think it's drugs or? drugs or? drugs or? >> Dude, it looks like somebody's come into >> Dude, it looks like somebody's come into >> Dude, it looks like somebody's come into the house and murdered her. Her throat the house and murdered her. Her throat the house and murdered her. Her throat slit. There's blood everywhere. slit. There's blood everywhere. slit. There's blood everywhere. >> Okay. About how old is she?

>> Okay. About how old is she? >> Okay. About how old is she? >> How old is she? 32? 33? >> How old is she? 32? 33? >> How old is she? 32? 33? >> All right, I'll get everybody out there. >> All right, I'll get everybody out there. >> All right, I'll get everybody out there. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> You're welcome. >> You're welcome. >> You're welcome. >> Thoughts? >> Thoughts? >> Thoughts? >> Well, I mean, it sounds like he doesn't >> Well, I mean, it sounds like he doesn't >> Well, I mean, it sounds like he doesn't even know her. Like, he can't give her even know her. Like, he can't give her even know her. Like, he can't give her last name. Doesn't really know how old last name. Doesn't really know how old last name. Doesn't really know how old she is. Also, the phrase, "There's a she is. Also, the phrase, "There's a she is. Also, the phrase, "There's a dead girl on my couch." Like, what a dead girl on my couch." Like, what a dead girl on my couch." Like, what a cold way to refer to anyone, but to cold way to refer to anyone, but to cold way to refer to anyone, but to refer to this person in your own home. refer to this person in your own home. refer to this person in your own home. Yeah. And listen, theoretically, he Yeah. And listen, theoretically, he Yeah. And listen, theoretically, he should know her because the restaurant should know her because the restaurant should know her because the restaurant that Amber was a hostess at is it's that Amber was a hostess at is it's that Amber was a hostess at is it's called Brick House, and Dr. Michael called Brick House, and Dr. Michael called Brick House, and Dr. Michael McKenna owns it. McKenna owns it. McKenna owns it. >> Oh. Now, it's probably not weird that he >> Oh. Now, it's probably not weird that he >> Oh. Now, it's probably not weird that he didn't know her last name and age. Like, didn't know her last name and age. Like, didn't know her last name and age. Like, he didn't even work at the restaurant he didn't even work at the restaurant he didn't even work at the restaurant full-time. He's a dentist. The full-time. He's a dentist. The full-time. He's a dentist. The restaurant is just one of his business restaurant is just one of his business restaurant is just one of his business ventures that helped make the McKinis a ventures that helped make the McKinis a ventures that helped make the McKinis a like wealthy and prominent family in the like wealthy and prominent family in the like wealthy and prominent family in the area. And by the way, Eastern Kentucky area. And by the way, Eastern Kentucky area. And by the way, Eastern Kentucky has one of the highest poverty rates in has one of the highest poverty rates in has one of the highest poverty rates in the country. So if you have money, the country. So if you have money, the country. So if you have money, people know you. So first responders may people know you. So first responders may people know you. So first responders may have known what house they were pulling have known what house they were pulling have known what house they were pulling up to when they arrived after that 10:30 up to when they arrived after that 10:30 up to when they arrived after that 10:30 call was made. Now Amber is found on the call was made. Now Amber is found on the call was made. Now Amber is found on the couch sitting upright. Her head is couch sitting upright. Her head is couch sitting upright. Her head is slumped forward and her clothes are slumped forward and her clothes are slumped forward and her clothes are covered in blood. And once they get a covered in blood. And once they get a covered in blood. And once they get a better look at her, like first better look at her, like first better look at her, like first responders, they could tell that this responders, they could tell that this responders, they could tell that this was not a natural or accidental death. I was not a natural or accidental death. I was not a natural or accidental death. I mean, she had been stabbed and her mean, she had been stabbed and her mean, she had been stabbed and her throat had been cut. And investigators throat had been cut. And investigators throat had been cut. And investigators now had four people standing in front of now had four people standing in front of now had four people standing in front of them, and one of them was covered in

them, and one of them was covered in them, and one of them was covered in blood. The man covered in blood is a The man covered in blood is a 51-year-old local guy named Roy Kidd. 51-year-old local guy named Roy Kidd. 51-year-old local guy named Roy Kidd. And after getting a lawyer, here's what And after getting a lawyer, here's what And after getting a lawyer, here's what he tells state police investigators. he tells state police investigators. he tells state police investigators. He'd met Amber years earlier at the He'd met Amber years earlier at the He'd met Amber years earlier at the medical office in the area where Debbie medical office in the area where Debbie medical office in the area where Debbie works as a doctor. Amber volunteered works as a doctor. Amber volunteered works as a doctor. Amber volunteered there and Roy was a radiology there and Roy was a radiology there and Roy was a radiology technician. Now, he told investigators technician. Now, he told investigators technician. Now, he told investigators that he wasn't really close with Amber that he wasn't really close with Amber that he wasn't really close with Amber or anything and Debbie backed that up. or anything and Debbie backed that up. or anything and Debbie backed that up. She told us that Roy was nice to Amber, She told us that Roy was nice to Amber, She told us that Roy was nice to Amber, just kind of like joked around with her, just kind of like joked around with her, just kind of like joked around with her, paid attention to her, but as far as she paid attention to her, but as far as she paid attention to her, but as far as she knew, like they didn't even hang out. knew, like they didn't even hang out. knew, like they didn't even hang out. Now, Roy said he occasionally ran into Now, Roy said he occasionally ran into Now, Roy said he occasionally ran into Amber at the Brick House where she Amber at the Brick House where she Amber at the Brick House where she worked, and another bar called Seasons worked, and another bar called Seasons worked, and another bar called Seasons in and Restaurant, which was owned by a in and Restaurant, which was owned by a in and Restaurant, which was owned by a McKini family member who he's related to McKini family member who he's related to McKini family member who he's related to by marriage. by marriage. by marriage. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> But they didn't spend much time together >> But they didn't spend much time together >> But they didn't spend much time together outside of that except for this outside of that except for this outside of that except for this particular Saturday. He hadn't really particular Saturday. He hadn't really particular Saturday. He hadn't really planned on doing anything that night, planned on doing anything that night, planned on doing anything that night, but Amber had messaged him on Facebook but Amber had messaged him on Facebook but Amber had messaged him on Facebook and convinced him to come out. He and convinced him to come out. He and convinced him to come out. He wouldn't have known this, but this was wouldn't have known this, but this was wouldn't have known this, but this was maybe her trying to branch out, be more maybe her trying to branch out, be more maybe her trying to branch out, be more independent. So, after she got off work, independent. So, after she got off work, independent. So, after she got off work, Amber picked him up at his house, and Amber picked him up at his house, and Amber picked him up at his house, and then they headed to Season's in. When then they headed to Season's in. When then they headed to Season's in. When Amber and Roy arrived, they don't Amber and Roy arrived, they don't Amber and Roy arrived, they don't necessarily spend every minute together.

necessarily spend every minute together. necessarily spend every minute together. Michael McKini was there, and Roy says Michael McKini was there, and Roy says Michael McKini was there, and Roy says that he spent most of the night with that he spent most of the night with that he spent most of the night with Michael and Michael's brother, Chris, Michael and Michael's brother, Chris, Michael and Michael's brother, Chris, and Chris is the one who owns seasons. and Chris is the one who owns seasons. and Chris is the one who owns seasons. and they're just chatting. And Roy says and they're just chatting. And Roy says and they're just chatting. And Roy says that Amber was talking to people she that Amber was talking to people she that Amber was talking to people she knew, hanging out with her friends. Of knew, hanging out with her friends. Of knew, hanging out with her friends. Of course, they like co-mingled at points. course, they like co-mingled at points. course, they like co-mingled at points. Michael even bought Amber and Roy a few Michael even bought Amber and Roy a few Michael even bought Amber and Roy a few drinks. And then Chris gave them a few drinks. And then Chris gave them a few drinks. And then Chris gave them a few rounds on the house. Now, the bar closes rounds on the house. Now, the bar closes rounds on the house. Now, the bar closes at 2:00 a.m., but when you know the at 2:00 a.m., but when you know the at 2:00 a.m., but when you know the owner, no, it doesn't. And he said that owner, no, it doesn't. And he said that owner, no, it doesn't. And he said that this big crowd stayed there drinking this big crowd stayed there drinking this big crowd stayed there drinking after hours. That was the norm for after hours. That was the norm for after hours. That was the norm for seasons. But sometime around 4 in the seasons. But sometime around 4 in the seasons. But sometime around 4 in the morning, Michael invited Amber and Roy morning, Michael invited Amber and Roy morning, Michael invited Amber and Roy to come back to his place to keep to come back to his place to keep to come back to his place to keep partying. This isn't a big group that's partying. This isn't a big group that's partying. This isn't a big group that's going back. Honestly, it was really just going back. Honestly, it was really just going back. Honestly, it was really just the people who lived at the house. So, the people who lived at the house. So, the people who lived at the house. So, Michael, then his 23-year-old son, Michael, then his 23-year-old son, Michael, then his 23-year-old son, Michael McKini III, or MK as everyone Michael McKini III, or MK as everyone Michael McKini III, or MK as everyone calls him, a guy named Josh Mullins, who calls him, a guy named Josh Mullins, who calls him, a guy named Josh Mullins, who had a room in the basement in the house, had a room in the basement in the house, had a room in the basement in the house, and Josh's girlfriend, Lauren. So, Roy and Josh's girlfriend, Lauren. So, Roy and Josh's girlfriend, Lauren. So, Roy says, you know, they just accept the says, you know, they just accept the says, you know, they just accept the invitation. But Amber's cousin Debbie invitation. But Amber's cousin Debbie invitation. But Amber's cousin Debbie told us that Amber was probably so told us that Amber was probably so told us that Amber was probably so excited to get that invite. I mean, this excited to get that invite. I mean, this excited to get that invite. I mean, this may have been a big deal for her. She may have been a big deal for her. She may have been a big deal for her. She probably felt so lucky. And so, she and probably felt so lucky. And so, she and probably felt so lucky. And so, she and these other five people all piled into these other five people all piled into these other five people all piled into Michael's Bronco to head to the Mckin Michael's Bronco to head to the Mckin Michael's Bronco to head to the Mckin house. Now, Roy says when they got to house. Now, Roy says when they got to house. Now, Roy says when they got to the house on Arkansas Creek Road, the the house on Arkansas Creek Road, the the house on Arkansas Creek Road, the party kept going in the basement where party kept going in the basement where party kept going in the basement where Michael had after parties like often. I Michael had after parties like often. I Michael had after parties like often. I mean, he kept making everyone drinks.

mean, he kept making everyone drinks. mean, he kept making everyone drinks. Everyone was having a good time. But at Everyone was having a good time. But at Everyone was having a good time. But at some point, Roy had reached his limit, some point, Roy had reached his limit, some point, Roy had reached his limit, and he knew that he had to go to bed. and he knew that he had to go to bed. and he knew that he had to go to bed. He'd been there before, so he knew right He'd been there before, so he knew right He'd been there before, so he knew right where to go, upstairs to MK's room, where to go, upstairs to MK's room, where to go, upstairs to MK's room, where he could collapse on a bunk bed. where he could collapse on a bunk bed. where he could collapse on a bunk bed. And he said that when he walked up the And he said that when he walked up the And he said that when he walked up the basement stairs, everyone was still down basement stairs, everyone was still down basement stairs, everyone was still down there. Everyone seemed fine. The next there. Everyone seemed fine. The next there. Everyone seemed fine. The next thing he knew, Roy was waking up to thing he knew, Roy was waking up to thing he knew, Roy was waking up to daylight. Now, it's between 7 to 9, daylight. Now, it's between 7 to 9, daylight. Now, it's between 7 to 9, maybe 9, 10, 11. like he's real fuzzy on maybe 9, 10, 11. like he's real fuzzy on maybe 9, 10, 11. like he's real fuzzy on the details, but he was also in real the details, but he was also in real the details, but he was also in real rough shape. Like he was like covered in rough shape. Like he was like covered in rough shape. Like he was like covered in his own urine and feces. Obviously felt his own urine and feces. Obviously felt his own urine and feces. Obviously felt really sick. really sick. really sick. >> The dude was like drunk drunk and I >> The dude was like drunk drunk and I >> The dude was like drunk drunk and I think he had some medical issues. But he think he had some medical issues. But he think he had some medical issues. But he says that he just wanted to go home. So says that he just wanted to go home. So says that he just wanted to go home. So he makes his way out of the bedroom to he makes his way out of the bedroom to he makes his way out of the bedroom to go look for his phone so he can call go look for his phone so he can call go look for his phone so he can call someone to pick him up. And in his someone to pick him up. And in his someone to pick him up. And in his search he stumbles down the hall to the search he stumbles down the hall to the search he stumbles down the hall to the other end of the house like it's by like other end of the house like it's by like other end of the house like it's by like the kitchen. And from there, he could the kitchen. And from there, he could the kitchen. And from there, he could see the back of Amber's head, and it see the back of Amber's head, and it see the back of Amber's head, and it looked like she was sitting on the couch looked like she was sitting on the couch looked like she was sitting on the couch in the living room. And so, he said he in the living room. And so, he said he in the living room. And so, he said he called her name as he was like going called her name as he was like going called her name as he was like going around to the front of the couch. And as around to the front of the couch. And as around to the front of the couch. And as soon as he saw her from the front, he soon as he saw her from the front, he soon as he saw her from the front, he knew why she hadn't been responding knew why she hadn't been responding knew why she hadn't been responding because she was covered in blood. And he because she was covered in blood. And he because she was covered in blood. And he says he rushes over to her, like shakes says he rushes over to her, like shakes says he rushes over to her, like shakes her. He's like screaming her name twice, her. He's like screaming her name twice, her. He's like screaming her name twice, but she didn't respond at all. And in a but she didn't respond at all. And in a but she didn't respond at all. And in a panic, he rushes to Michael's bedroom on panic, he rushes to Michael's bedroom on panic, he rushes to Michael's bedroom on the same floor, starts like banging on the same floor, starts like banging on the same floor, starts like banging on the door for him to wake up. And he the door for him to wake up. And he the door for him to wake up. And he says, "Michael opens it right away, and says, "Michael opens it right away, and says, "Michael opens it right away, and Roy just said like, "Call 911 because

Roy just said like, "Call 911 because Roy just said like, "Call 911 because something's happened to Amber." And he something's happened to Amber." And he something's happened to Amber." And he thought she'd had a stroke or something. thought she'd had a stroke or something. thought she'd had a stroke or something. And so, according to Roy, Michael maybe And so, according to Roy, Michael maybe And so, according to Roy, Michael maybe stepped out from his room a bit, like stepped out from his room a bit, like stepped out from his room a bit, like looked Amber's way, and then he steps looked Amber's way, and then he steps looked Amber's way, and then he steps back in and starts making calls. And Roy back in and starts making calls. And Roy back in and starts making calls. And Roy can't hear much. He's just like sitting can't hear much. He's just like sitting can't hear much. He's just like sitting at the dining room table in shock. But at the dining room table in shock. But at the dining room table in shock. But at some point he asked where MK was at some point he asked where MK was at some point he asked where MK was because he didn't want him seeing what because he didn't want him seeing what because he didn't want him seeing what was like in the living room. And Michael was like in the living room. And Michael was like in the living room. And Michael told him that MK left sometime during told him that MK left sometime during told him that MK left sometime during the night. So like no concern there. But the night. So like no concern there. But the night. So like no concern there. But Lauren and Josh weren't so lucky. At Lauren and Josh weren't so lucky. At Lauren and Josh weren't so lucky. At some point they come upstairs where they some point they come upstairs where they some point they come upstairs where they all wait for police. So they just sat all wait for police. So they just sat all wait for police. So they just sat there. Did no one check her pulse or try there. Did no one check her pulse or try there. Did no one check her pulse or try CPR? Like I know he's a dentist, but CPR? Like I know he's a dentist, but CPR? Like I know he's a dentist, but like dentists are still doctors. Police like dentists are still doctors. Police like dentists are still doctors. Police literally asked Roy the same question. literally asked Roy the same question. literally asked Roy the same question. And Roy explained that he I mean he And Roy explained that he I mean he And Roy explained that he I mean he works in the medical field, right? He works in the medical field, right? He works in the medical field, right? He thought Amber had some kind of thought Amber had some kind of thought Amber had some kind of hemorrhage or aneurysm because he didn't hemorrhage or aneurysm because he didn't hemorrhage or aneurysm because he didn't notice any wounds. He says all he saw notice any wounds. He says all he saw notice any wounds. He says all he saw was the blood which had dried already was the blood which had dried already was the blood which had dried already and he figured that that she was gone and he figured that that she was gone and he figured that that she was gone just from her face and her eyes. I I just from her face and her eyes. I I just from her face and her eyes. I I have so many questions. How did he have so many questions. How did he have so many questions. How did he mistake a slit throat for an aneurysm?

mistake a slit throat for an aneurysm? mistake a slit throat for an aneurysm? Like that is not the same at all. Like that is not the same at all. Like that is not the same at all. Actually, the way that she was slumped Actually, the way that she was slumped Actually, the way that she was slumped over, it like hid her neck and you over, it like hid her neck and you over, it like hid her neck and you actually couldn't tell. Even first actually couldn't tell. Even first actually couldn't tell. Even first responders say that you could not see responders say that you could not see responders say that you could not see her throat was slit. So, that wasn't her throat was slit. So, that wasn't her throat was slit. So, that wasn't super weird to them. Okay, fine. But if super weird to them. Okay, fine. But if super weird to them. Okay, fine. But if he's claiming the blood was dry and that he's claiming the blood was dry and that he's claiming the blood was dry and that he didn't really touch her behind like he didn't really touch her behind like he didn't really touch her behind like what, shaking her that one time? Like, what, shaking her that one time? Like, what, shaking her that one time? Like, how does that explain him being covered how does that explain him being covered how does that explain him being covered in blood? in blood? in blood? >> Because he says it isn't her blood. He >> Because he says it isn't her blood. He >> Because he says it isn't her blood. He said that he'd fallen quite a few times said that he'd fallen quite a few times said that he'd fallen quite a few times the night before. He had something like the night before. He had something like the night before. He had something like 10 to 14 drinks that night and said he 10 to 14 drinks that night and said he 10 to 14 drinks that night and said he was like a nine out of 10 on the drunk was like a nine out of 10 on the drunk was like a nine out of 10 on the drunk scale. I don't know what a 10 out of 10 scale. I don't know what a 10 out of 10 scale. I don't know what a 10 out of 10 is for Roy, but he was sloppy. So, he is for Roy, but he was sloppy. So, he is for Roy, but he was sloppy. So, he said he wiped out once while getting out said he wiped out once while getting out said he wiped out once while getting out of the Bronco when they first got there. of the Bronco when they first got there. of the Bronco when they first got there. And then later at the house, he fell And then later at the house, he fell And then later at the house, he fell again in the bathroom and split open his again in the bathroom and split open his again in the bathroom and split open his chin. And the story probably seems a chin. And the story probably seems a chin. And the story probably seems a little wild and far-fetched. little wild and far-fetched. little wild and far-fetched. >> Yeah. Especially because according to >> Yeah. Especially because according to >> Yeah. Especially because according to court records, one of the detectives court records, one of the detectives court records, one of the detectives tells Roy that they can't find any blood tells Roy that they can't find any blood tells Roy that they can't find any blood in the bathroom where he says he busted in the bathroom where he says he busted in the bathroom where he says he busted his chin. And Royy's surprised by this his chin. And Royy's surprised by this his chin. And Royy's surprised by this cuz he's like, you know, I didn't clean cuz he's like, you know, I didn't clean cuz he's like, you know, I didn't clean up after myself, so I don't know what to up after myself, so I don't know what to up after myself, so I don't know what to make of this. But he insists that's what make of this. But he insists that's what make of this. But he insists that's what happened. He insists that everyone was happened. He insists that everyone was happened. He insists that everyone was fine when he staggered off to bed at fine when he staggered off to bed at fine when he staggered off to bed at 6:30. And Lauren, the only other person 6:30. And Lauren, the only other person 6:30. And Lauren, the only other person willing to talk to police that we know willing to talk to police that we know willing to talk to police that we know of, backs this up. She says that Amber of, backs this up. She says that Amber of, backs this up. She says that Amber was still alive in the living room when was still alive in the living room when was still alive in the living room when Josh and her went back down to the

Josh and her went back down to the Josh and her went back down to the basement where Josh's room was to go to basement where Josh's room was to go to basement where Josh's room was to go to bed. And she says that was around 7:00 bed. And she says that was around 7:00 bed. And she says that was around 7:00 a.m. Okay. What about the blood? Does a.m. Okay. What about the blood? Does a.m. Okay. What about the blood? Does she back up his story about why it was she back up his story about why it was she back up his story about why it was on him? Say anything about someone on him? Say anything about someone on him? Say anything about someone cleaning it up in the bathroom? cleaning it up in the bathroom? cleaning it up in the bathroom? >> I don't know. So, there haven't been a >> I don't know. So, there haven't been a >> I don't know. So, there haven't been a ton of details released about what ton of details released about what ton of details released about what exactly she told police, but there is exactly she told police, but there is exactly she told police, but there is something else that backs up Royy's something else that backs up Royy's something else that backs up Royy's story. Something way better than a drunk story. Something way better than a drunk story. Something way better than a drunk person's memory. Investigators realized person's memory. Investigators realized person's memory. Investigators realized pretty early on that there was another pretty early on that there was another pretty early on that there was another call made to 911 from Michael's house call made to 911 from Michael's house call made to 911 from Michael's house that morning. Like 4 and a half hours that morning. Like 4 and a half hours that morning. Like 4 and a half hours before the one about Amber, MK called. before the one about Amber, MK called. before the one about Amber, MK called. According to court filings, MK asked According to court filings, MK asked According to court filings, MK asked dispatchers to send someone to take a dispatchers to send someone to take a dispatchers to send someone to take a family friend to the drunk tank. The family friend to the drunk tank. The family friend to the drunk tank. The family friend that he's talking about is family friend that he's talking about is family friend that he's talking about is presumably Roy. And the dispatcher asked presumably Roy. And the dispatcher asked presumably Roy. And the dispatcher asked if Roy was like fighting or otherwise if Roy was like fighting or otherwise if Roy was like fighting or otherwise like committing an arrestable offense. like committing an arrestable offense. like committing an arrestable offense. And MK didn't answer directly, but he And MK didn't answer directly, but he And MK didn't answer directly, but he added, quote, "I'm not saying arrest added, quote, "I'm not saying arrest added, quote, "I'm not saying arrest him." Now, I have not heard this call, him." Now, I have not heard this call, him." Now, I have not heard this call, but Debbie got to listen to the call, but Debbie got to listen to the call, but Debbie got to listen to the call, and she said that MK describes Roy as and she said that MK describes Roy as and she said that MK describes Roy as quote really effed up and said that he quote really effed up and said that he quote really effed up and said that he was bleeding profusely.

was bleeding profusely. was bleeding profusely. But then Michael gets on the line and But then Michael gets on the line and But then Michael gets on the line and says that like, "I've got this under says that like, "I've got this under says that like, "I've got this under control. No response is needed, so no control. No response is needed, so no control. No response is needed, so no one is dispatched. one is dispatched. one is dispatched. >> I'm sorry. I I guess I just I >> I'm sorry. I I guess I just I >> I'm sorry. I I guess I just I >> don't know what to think. >> don't know what to think. >> don't know what to think. >> Yeah, cuz are we thinking something >> Yeah, cuz are we thinking something >> Yeah, cuz are we thinking something really happened at 6? really happened at 6? really happened at 6? >> Not if you believe Roy and Lauren. Cuz >> Not if you believe Roy and Lauren. Cuz >> Not if you believe Roy and Lauren. Cuz Roy goes to bed after this. Everything's Roy goes to bed after this. Everything's Roy goes to bed after this. Everything's fine. Lauren goes to bed an hour after fine. Lauren goes to bed an hour after fine. Lauren goes to bed an hour after this call, everything's still fine. But this call, everything's still fine. But this call, everything's still fine. But did either of them mention the first 911 did either of them mention the first 911 did either of them mention the first 911 call in their stories? call in their stories? call in their stories? >> I don't know about Lauren, but I know >> I don't know about Lauren, but I know >> I don't know about Lauren, but I know that police asked Roy when they found that police asked Roy when they found that police asked Roy when they found out about it, like, you know, what's out about it, like, you know, what's out about it, like, you know, what's this 6 a.m. 911 call about? And it was this 6 a.m. 911 call about? And it was this 6 a.m. 911 call about? And it was total news to him that MK called 911 on total news to him that MK called 911 on total news to him that MK called 911 on him. him. him. >> I mean, if he blacked out, I don't know >> I mean, if he blacked out, I don't know >> I mean, if he blacked out, I don't know if we can trust anything he says, if we can trust anything he says, if we can trust anything he says, though. though. though. >> I don't I don't think he's saying he >> I don't I don't think he's saying he >> I don't I don't think he's saying he doesn't know cuz he blacked out. Like, doesn't know cuz he blacked out. Like, doesn't know cuz he blacked out. Like, he just didn't know that MK did that. he just didn't know that MK did that. he just didn't know that MK did that. like and without hearing the call like and without hearing the call like and without hearing the call myself, I don't know if MK's in another myself, I don't know if MK's in another myself, I don't know if MK's in another room. I don't know or or if things were room. I don't know or or if things were room. I don't know or or if things were just getting hazy for Roy or if he's just getting hazy for Roy or if he's just getting hazy for Roy or if he's lying. Roy actually agreed to a lying. Roy actually agreed to a lying. Roy actually agreed to a polygraph test, but he fails it pretty polygraph test, but he fails it pretty polygraph test, but he fails it pretty royally. I mean, he fails on four royally. I mean, he fails on four royally. I mean, he fails on four substantial questions. Did you see substantial questions. Did you see substantial questions. Did you see anyone stab or cut that woman? Did you anyone stab or cut that woman? Did you anyone stab or cut that woman? Did you stab or cut that woman? Did anyone tell stab or cut that woman? Did anyone tell stab or cut that woman? Did anyone tell you that they stabbed or cut that woman?

you that they stabbed or cut that woman? you that they stabbed or cut that woman? Did you help cover up that woman's Did you help cover up that woman's Did you help cover up that woman's death? death? death? >> Oh, so like all the important questions. >> Oh, so like all the important questions. >> Oh, so like all the important questions. >> Yeah. And after he fails, detectives >> Yeah. And after he fails, detectives >> Yeah. And after he fails, detectives want to bring him in for more want to bring him in for more want to bring him in for more questioning. But this is where Royy's questioning. But this is where Royy's questioning. But this is where Royy's attorney shuts it down. And as far as I attorney shuts it down. And as far as I attorney shuts it down. And as far as I know, that was Royy's last interview know, that was Royy's last interview know, that was Royy's last interview with police. with police. with police. >> So, are Michael, MK, and Josh taking >> So, are Michael, MK, and Josh taking >> So, are Michael, MK, and Josh taking polygraphs and giving like their version polygraphs and giving like their version polygraphs and giving like their version of events? Oh, your your face is telling of events? Oh, your your face is telling of events? Oh, your your face is telling me a lot. me a lot. me a lot. >> It doesn't it doesn't seem like it. So, >> It doesn't it doesn't seem like it. So, >> It doesn't it doesn't seem like it. So, there's nothing in any of the court there's nothing in any of the court there's nothing in any of the court records coming from them, but of course, records coming from them, but of course, records coming from them, but of course, a lot of evidence won't come out until a lot of evidence won't come out until a lot of evidence won't come out until the trial. It actually even takes the trial. It actually even takes the trial. It actually even takes investigators a minute to find MK. I do investigators a minute to find MK. I do investigators a minute to find MK. I do know that because he wasn't at his mom's know that because he wasn't at his mom's know that because he wasn't at his mom's house either. Like, he's not there when house either. Like, he's not there when house either. Like, he's not there when they show up. Not at his mom's house. they show up. Not at his mom's house. they show up. Not at his mom's house. And it turns out that he had gone back And it turns out that he had gone back And it turns out that he had gone back to the city of Morehead, which is like to the city of Morehead, which is like to the city of Morehead, which is like 70 mi away where he went to college. But 70 mi away where he went to college. But 70 mi away where he went to college. But luckily for state police, the evidence luckily for state police, the evidence luckily for state police, the evidence that they have been collecting from the that they have been collecting from the that they have been collecting from the scene and Amber's autopsy, that all scene and Amber's autopsy, that all scene and Amber's autopsy, that all tells a story of its own. It's just not tells a story of its own. It's just not tells a story of its own. It's just not what anyone expected.

Amber's autopsy reveals that her attack Amber's autopsy reveals that her attack was brutal. At less than five feet tall, was brutal. At less than five feet tall, was brutal. At less than five feet tall, she clearly tried to fight off her she clearly tried to fight off her she clearly tried to fight off her killer because she had defensive wounds killer because she had defensive wounds killer because she had defensive wounds and they were able to collect biological and they were able to collect biological and they were able to collect biological material from under her fingernails that material from under her fingernails that material from under her fingernails that didn't belong to her. But any one of the didn't belong to her. But any one of the didn't belong to her. But any one of the men in the house that night could have men in the house that night could have men in the house that night could have overpowered her. They were all taller, overpowered her. They were all taller, overpowered her. They were all taller, stronger, and of course, whoever stronger, and of course, whoever stronger, and of course, whoever murdered her had a weapon. Now, we don't murdered her had a weapon. Now, we don't murdered her had a weapon. Now, we don't have the official autopsy, but what we have the official autopsy, but what we have the official autopsy, but what we do know from court records is that she do know from court records is that she do know from court records is that she was stabbed a total of 12 times in the was stabbed a total of 12 times in the was stabbed a total of 12 times in the face, neck, head, torso, and throat. And face, neck, head, torso, and throat. And face, neck, head, torso, and throat. And the killer used so much force that the the killer used so much force that the the killer used so much force that the blade of the knife broke off in her neck blade of the knife broke off in her neck blade of the knife broke off in her neck and was still there for the me to find. and was still there for the me to find. and was still there for the me to find. >> Oh my god. And that was probably a huge >> Oh my god. And that was probably a huge >> Oh my god. And that was probably a huge shock to anyone in the room when it was shock to anyone in the room when it was shock to anyone in the room when it was found because they had collected a knife found because they had collected a knife found because they had collected a knife from the scene. from the scene. from the scene. >> What? a whole intact knife that had been >> What? a whole intact knife that had been >> What? a whole intact knife that had been like shoved into the couch Amber was like shoved into the couch Amber was like shoved into the couch Amber was sitting on. And now they have this sitting on. And now they have this sitting on. And now they have this blade, but the missing handle that blade, but the missing handle that blade, but the missing handle that should have been attached to said blade should have been attached to said blade should have been attached to said blade in her neck was nowhere to be found.

in her neck was nowhere to be found. in her neck was nowhere to be found. Never recovered. Never recovered. Never recovered. >> Wait, so were two weapons used? >> Wait, so were two weapons used? >> Wait, so were two weapons used? >> It doesn't seem like it. Again, there's >> It doesn't seem like it. Again, there's >> It doesn't seem like it. Again, there's still very limited information about the still very limited information about the still very limited information about the knife recovered from the couch and what knife recovered from the couch and what knife recovered from the couch and what testing might have been done on it and testing might have been done on it and testing might have been done on it and what that might have shown. But the way what that might have shown. But the way what that might have shown. But the way the indictments read, it looks like they the indictments read, it looks like they the indictments read, it looks like they think that knife was planted, think that knife was planted, think that knife was planted, >> but why? Like that that doesn't make any >> but why? Like that that doesn't make any >> but why? Like that that doesn't make any sense. sense. sense. >> I know. And I keep going over it in my >> I know. And I keep going over it in my >> I know. And I keep going over it in my head. And I don't know if it only head. And I don't know if it only head. And I don't know if it only doesn't make sense because we're sober doesn't make sense because we're sober doesn't make sense because we're sober right now. Like trying to like piece right now. Like trying to like piece right now. Like trying to like piece this together, this together, this together, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Anyway, put the planted knife aside. The >> Anyway, put the planted knife aside. The >> Anyway, put the planted knife aside. The handle to the knife that we care about handle to the knife that we care about handle to the knife that we care about is missing. And you know what else is is missing. And you know what else is is missing. And you know what else is missing? The McKinis had surveillance missing? The McKinis had surveillance missing? The McKinis had surveillance cameras around their house. And one of cameras around their house. And one of cameras around their house. And one of those cameras was pointed directly at those cameras was pointed directly at those cameras was pointed directly at the couch where Amber was found. the couch where Amber was found. the couch where Amber was found. According to Lauren, it was there. There According to Lauren, it was there. There According to Lauren, it was there. There was also one in the basement by the bar was also one in the basement by the bar was also one in the basement by the bar area. So, this case should be over right area. So, this case should be over right area. So, this case should be over right there. there. there. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It should show exactly what happened and >> It should show exactly what happened and >> It should show exactly what happened and when and who was involved. Mhm.

when and who was involved. Mhm. when and who was involved. Mhm. >> But those cameras and the footage were >> But those cameras and the footage were >> But those cameras and the footage were gone by the time police arrived at the gone by the time police arrived at the gone by the time police arrived at the house after Michael's 911 call. And so house after Michael's 911 call. And so house after Michael's 911 call. And so was the digital video recorder and the was the digital video recorder and the was the digital video recorder and the hard drive that stored the footage from hard drive that stored the footage from hard drive that stored the footage from the surveillance cameras, too. the surveillance cameras, too. the surveillance cameras, too. >> Whatever was on those tapes is long gone >> Whatever was on those tapes is long gone >> Whatever was on those tapes is long gone now. According to court records, now. According to court records, now. According to court records, surveillance footage from the area, surveillance footage from the area, surveillance footage from the area, though they collect that and it shows though they collect that and it shows though they collect that and it shows MK's blue truck leaving the area at MK's blue truck leaving the area at MK's blue truck leaving the area at around 8:30 in the morning. And that is around 8:30 in the morning. And that is around 8:30 in the morning. And that is very different from what Roy said that very different from what Roy said that very different from what Roy said that Michael told him, which was that MK left Michael told him, which was that MK left Michael told him, which was that MK left the night before. I mean, we knew that the night before. I mean, we knew that the night before. I mean, we knew that was a lie as soon as we found out about was a lie as soon as we found out about was a lie as soon as we found out about the 6 a.m. call from MK to 911, the 6 a.m. call from MK to 911, the 6 a.m. call from MK to 911, >> right? And if everyone's stories are to >> right? And if everyone's stories are to >> right? And if everyone's stories are to be believed, big if there, be believed, big if there, be believed, big if there, >> the time that he's there at the house >> the time that he's there at the house >> the time that he's there at the house and then leaves is in this very critical and then leaves is in this very critical and then leaves is in this very critical window. So MK makes that 911 call a window. So MK makes that 911 call a window. So MK makes that 911 call a little before 6:00 a.m. Roy goes to bed little before 6:00 a.m. Roy goes to bed little before 6:00 a.m. Roy goes to bed presumably after that. Then Lauren and presumably after that. Then Lauren and presumably after that. Then Lauren and Josh go to bed at 7 a.m.

Josh go to bed at 7 a.m. Josh go to bed at 7 a.m. >> and Lauren says Amber is still alive and >> and Lauren says Amber is still alive and >> and Lauren says Amber is still alive and well, and it's just Michael and MK who well, and it's just Michael and MK who well, and it's just Michael and MK who are now unaccounted for. Then just are now unaccounted for. Then just are now unaccounted for. Then just before 8:30, MK's truck is driving away. before 8:30, MK's truck is driving away. before 8:30, MK's truck is driving away. And by 10:37, Amber is for sure dead. And by 10:37, Amber is for sure dead. And by 10:37, Amber is for sure dead. Blood on her has already had time to Blood on her has already had time to Blood on her has already had time to dry. Yeah, I am so suspicious of dry. Yeah, I am so suspicious of dry. Yeah, I am so suspicious of everyone right now. everyone right now. everyone right now. >> I know. Which I think is going to be a >> I know. Which I think is going to be a >> I know. Which I think is going to be a problem when this case goes to trial. problem when this case goes to trial. problem when this case goes to trial. What they need is physical evidence What they need is physical evidence What they need is physical evidence tying someone to Amber's murder. It tying someone to Amber's murder. It tying someone to Amber's murder. It seems like the best piece of evidence seems like the best piece of evidence seems like the best piece of evidence they have to work with is that material they have to work with is that material they have to work with is that material found under her fingernails. I mean, she found under her fingernails. I mean, she found under her fingernails. I mean, she clearly tried to defend herself. So, if clearly tried to defend herself. So, if clearly tried to defend herself. So, if it was from one of the five other people it was from one of the five other people it was from one of the five other people in the house that night, maybe their DNA in the house that night, maybe their DNA in the house that night, maybe their DNA is going to show up there. Now, they are is going to show up there. Now, they are is going to show up there. Now, they are able to create a profile from what they able to create a profile from what they able to create a profile from what they got. It's not great, but it is enough to got. It's not great, but it is enough to got. It's not great, but it is enough to tell that it's male, and they can do tell that it's male, and they can do tell that it's male, and they can do direct comparisons with it. So, they get direct comparisons with it. So, they get direct comparisons with it. So, they get the DNA of every man that was in the the DNA of every man that was in the the DNA of every man that was in the house that night. I'm assuming through a house that night. I'm assuming through a house that night. I'm assuming through a warrant, but that's not specified in the warrant, but that's not specified in the warrant, but that's not specified in the court docs. So, Roy, Michael, Josh, and court docs. So, Roy, Michael, Josh, and court docs. So, Roy, Michael, Josh, and MK. And something interesting happens MK. And something interesting happens MK. And something interesting happens when MK goes to the KSP post to give his when MK goes to the KSP post to give his when MK goes to the KSP post to give his sample. This is just 3 days after sample. This is just 3 days after sample. This is just 3 days after Amber's death. And I don't know if this Amber's death. And I don't know if this Amber's death. And I don't know if this is the first time they're actually is the first time they're actually is the first time they're actually laying eyes on him or what, but laying eyes on him or what, but laying eyes on him or what, but authorities notice that he has a bunch authorities notice that he has a bunch authorities notice that he has a bunch of scratches on both of his arms. And it of scratches on both of his arms. And it of scratches on both of his arms. And it looks like the scratches kind of like looks like the scratches kind of like looks like the scratches kind of like start at the inside of the elbow and start at the inside of the elbow and start at the inside of the elbow and like move down in the direction of his

like move down in the direction of his like move down in the direction of his hand. And listen, I'm no expert, but hand. And listen, I'm no expert, but hand. And listen, I'm no expert, but like it kind of looks like claw marks. like it kind of looks like claw marks. like it kind of looks like claw marks. What does MK say the scratches are from? What does MK say the scratches are from? What does MK say the scratches are from? >> I don't know if he gives an explanation. >> I don't know if he gives an explanation. >> I don't know if he gives an explanation. Like if he does, that's not in the court Like if he does, that's not in the court Like if he does, that's not in the court records. My guess is that he's keeping records. My guess is that he's keeping records. My guess is that he's keeping his mouth shut based on advice from his his mouth shut based on advice from his his mouth shut based on advice from his attorney. attorney. attorney. >> But DNA is going to do the talking for >> But DNA is going to do the talking for >> But DNA is going to do the talking for him if it's his. They just have to send him if it's his. They just have to send him if it's his. They just have to send it off and then wait. Now, mind you, it off and then wait. Now, mind you, it off and then wait. Now, mind you, while all of this is unfolding, in the while all of this is unfolding, in the while all of this is unfolding, in the first couple of days, Amber's family is first couple of days, Amber's family is first couple of days, Amber's family is still mostly in the dark. still mostly in the dark. still mostly in the dark. >> No one from law enforcement ever came to >> No one from law enforcement ever came to >> No one from law enforcement ever came to their house for an official notification their house for an official notification their house for an official notification of Amber's death. And no one came to of Amber's death. And no one came to of Amber's death. And no one came to them right away to get any statements or them right away to get any statements or them right away to get any statements or anything. But they weren't just waiting anything. But they weren't just waiting anything. But they weren't just waiting around. I mean, they start hearing around. I mean, they start hearing around. I mean, they start hearing rumors about what happened. They find rumors about what happened. They find rumors about what happened. They find out who Amber was with the night before out who Amber was with the night before out who Amber was with the night before and where she was. They feel like the and where she was. They feel like the and where she was. They feel like the McKinis might have something to do with McKinis might have something to do with McKinis might have something to do with whatever happened to her, whatever happened to her, whatever happened to her, >> which I think is a fair assumption, >> which I think is a fair assumption, >> which I think is a fair assumption, >> right? And their biggest fear, though, >> right? And their biggest fear, though, >> right? And their biggest fear, though, is that I mean, because the McKinis are is that I mean, because the McKinis are is that I mean, because the McKinis are kind of what they consider powerful in kind of what they consider powerful in kind of what they consider powerful in the community, they're afraid that the community, they're afraid that the community, they're afraid that Amber's death might just get swept under Amber's death might just get swept under Amber's death might just get swept under the rug. Debbie told us that people feel the rug. Debbie told us that people feel the rug. Debbie told us that people feel that there are two kinds of justice in that there are two kinds of justice in that there are two kinds of justice in Floyd County. one for the halves and one Floyd County. one for the halves and one Floyd County. one for the halves and one for the have nots. I mean, we end up for the have nots. I mean, we end up for the have nots. I mean, we end up finding out that Michael is actually finding out that Michael is actually finding out that Michael is actually friends with at least one officer in the friends with at least one officer in the friends with at least one officer in the Prestonburg Police Department. So, even Prestonburg Police Department. So, even Prestonburg Police Department. So, even though the case is being handled by a though the case is being handled by a though the case is being handled by a different agency, their faith in a different agency, their faith in a different agency, their faith in a proper investigation is shaky at best.

proper investigation is shaky at best. proper investigation is shaky at best. So, by day two, her loved ones and So, by day two, her loved ones and So, by day two, her loved ones and people from the community were people from the community were people from the community were protesting outside of Michael McKenny's protesting outside of Michael McKenny's protesting outside of Michael McKenny's restaurant where Amber worked. Debbie restaurant where Amber worked. Debbie restaurant where Amber worked. Debbie created a Facebook page called Justice created a Facebook page called Justice created a Facebook page called Justice for Amber and people were joining in for Amber and people were joining in for Amber and people were joining in droves. They went on to hold a droves. They went on to hold a droves. They went on to hold a candlelight vigil at the alternative candlelight vigil at the alternative candlelight vigil at the alternative school that Amber attended. And her school that Amber attended. And her school that Amber attended. And her family talks to every reporter who family talks to every reporter who family talks to every reporter who calls. They want answers and they think calls. They want answers and they think calls. They want answers and they think the best way to get them is through the best way to get them is through the best way to get them is through attention. So tension is building in the attention. So tension is building in the attention. So tension is building in the community. And keep in mind when I say community. And keep in mind when I say community. And keep in mind when I say community, Prestonburg is literally a community, Prestonburg is literally a community, Prestonburg is literally a few streets tucked into a valley. a few few streets tucked into a valley. a few few streets tucked into a valley. a few stores on the highway, a few side stores on the highway, a few side stores on the highway, a few side streets, mostly these little houses. I streets, mostly these little houses. I streets, mostly these little houses. I mean, the whole population is around mean, the whole population is around mean, the whole population is around 3,500 people. So, it does not take long 3,500 people. So, it does not take long 3,500 people. So, it does not take long for rumors to start spreading. And the for rumors to start spreading. And the for rumors to start spreading. And the rumor that's spreading isn't just that rumor that's spreading isn't just that rumor that's spreading isn't just that someone in that house was involved in someone in that house was involved in someone in that house was involved in her murder. People in town believe that her murder. People in town believe that her murder. People in town believe that police tried to cover it up. The police tried to cover it up. The police tried to cover it up. The Kentucky State Police? No. though. I Kentucky State Police? No. though. I Kentucky State Police? No. though. I mean, the family still does not love how mean, the family still does not love how mean, the family still does not love how they found out Amber was murdered they found out Amber was murdered they found out Amber was murdered secondhand, secondhand, secondhand, >> right?

>> right? >> right? >> But there was something about the call >> But there was something about the call >> But there was something about the call that they got from Debbie's friend, that that they got from Debbie's friend, that that they got from Debbie's friend, that retired KSP officer that just like never retired KSP officer that just like never retired KSP officer that just like never quite sat right with them. quite sat right with them. quite sat right with them. >> And that's the one where the chief of >> And that's the one where the chief of >> And that's the one where the chief of police in Prestonburg told them to police in Prestonburg told them to police in Prestonburg told them to settle down settle down settle down >> and that Amber wasn't murdered, just she >> and that Amber wasn't murdered, just she >> and that Amber wasn't murdered, just she aspirated cuz like aspirated cuz like aspirated cuz like >> that's specific. And how would he know? >> that's specific. And how would he know? >> that's specific. And how would he know? >> It's specifically so different from the >> It's specifically so different from the >> It's specifically so different from the truth of what happened, truth of what happened, truth of what happened, >> right? So if he was in the know, like >> right? So if he was in the know, like >> right? So if he was in the know, like that shouldn't have been his answer, that shouldn't have been his answer, that shouldn't have been his answer, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> If he didn't know anything, >> If he didn't know anything, >> If he didn't know anything, >> why is he saying that? >> why is he saying that? >> why is he saying that? >> Yeah. Why is he literally making stuff >> Yeah. Why is he literally making stuff >> Yeah. Why is he literally making stuff up to tell a grieving family on a case up to tell a grieving family on a case up to tell a grieving family on a case that he's not working? Like that he's not working? Like that he's not working? Like >> it's not adding up. But you know, >> it's not adding up. But you know, >> it's not adding up. But you know, there's something else that's not adding there's something else that's not adding there's something else that's not adding up when it comes to who knew what and up when it comes to who knew what and up when it comes to who knew what and when. So, remember Michael's 911 call when. So, remember Michael's 911 call when. So, remember Michael's 911 call when he said, "Dude, it looks like when he said, "Dude, it looks like when he said, "Dude, it looks like somebody's come into the house and somebody's come into the house and somebody's come into the house and murdered her. Her throat slit. There's murdered her. Her throat slit. There's murdered her. Her throat slit. There's blood everywhere." How would he have blood everywhere." How would he have blood everywhere." How would he have known that? Roy didn't know that her known that? Roy didn't know that her known that? Roy didn't know that her throat was slit. He told Michael that throat was slit. He told Michael that throat was slit. He told Michael that she had an aneurysm or something. And she had an aneurysm or something. And she had an aneurysm or something. And remember, even first responders said remember, even first responders said remember, even first responders said that it wasn't clear that her throat was that it wasn't clear that her throat was that it wasn't clear that her throat was slit because of how she was like slumped slit because of how she was like slumped slit because of how she was like slumped over, right? But Michael wasn't even over, right? But Michael wasn't even over, right? But Michael wasn't even close up. Roy said at most Michael just close up. Roy said at most Michael just close up. Roy said at most Michael just stepped out of his room and looked over stepped out of his room and looked over stepped out of his room and looked over toward the couch before going back into toward the couch before going back into toward the couch before going back into his room and making calls. And Roy told his room and making calls. And Roy told his room and making calls. And Roy told police that he never saw Michael check police that he never saw Michael check police that he never saw Michael check on Amber.

on Amber. on Amber. >> I mean, he seems pretty sure about what >> I mean, he seems pretty sure about what >> I mean, he seems pretty sure about what happened on the call, though. happened on the call, though. happened on the call, though. >> Yes, he does seem pretty sure of it when >> Yes, he does seem pretty sure of it when >> Yes, he does seem pretty sure of it when he calls 911. But you might have caught he calls 911. But you might have caught he calls 911. But you might have caught me saying that he made calls that me saying that he made calls that me saying that he made calls that morning, plural, morning, plural, morning, plural, >> not just a call to 911. And the first >> not just a call to 911. And the first >> not just a call to 911. And the first one that morning wasn't to 911. You're one that morning wasn't to 911. You're one that morning wasn't to 911. You're not going to believe who it was to when not going to believe who it was to when not going to believe who it was to when I show you the court docs. Police found out that before calling Police found out that before calling 911, Michael McKini made a nearly 911, Michael McKini made a nearly 911, Michael McKini made a nearly 8minute call to Randy Woods, the 8minute call to Randy Woods, the 8minute call to Randy Woods, the Prestonburg Chief of Police, Prestonburg Chief of Police, Prestonburg Chief of Police, >> which like for what possible reason? >> which like for what possible reason? >> which like for what possible reason? So, Michael doesn't give one to So, Michael doesn't give one to So, Michael doesn't give one to investigators that we know of, but Chief investigators that we know of, but Chief investigators that we know of, but Chief Woods does. Chief Woods tells state Woods does. Chief Woods tells state Woods does. Chief Woods tells state investigators that when Michael called, investigators that when Michael called, investigators that when Michael called, he just instructed him to call 911. he just instructed him to call 911. he just instructed him to call 911. >> Call 911. Did that take 8 minutes? >> Call 911. Did that take 8 minutes? >> Call 911. Did that take 8 minutes? >> Right. They have an 8minute call.

>> Right. They have an 8minute call. >> Right. They have an 8minute call. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Now, maybe Mike was in shock. I mean, no >> Now, maybe Mike was in shock. I mean, no >> Now, maybe Mike was in shock. I mean, no one ever expects to be in a situation one ever expects to be in a situation one ever expects to be in a situation like this. Maybe he panicked. He called like this. Maybe he panicked. He called like this. Maybe he panicked. He called law enforcement by dialing his friend's law enforcement by dialing his friend's law enforcement by dialing his friend's number who's in law enforcement instead number who's in law enforcement instead number who's in law enforcement instead of 911. Like in his mind, it could have of 911. Like in his mind, it could have of 911. Like in his mind, it could have been the same thing. And maybe for 8 been the same thing. And maybe for 8 been the same thing. And maybe for 8 minutes, Chief Woods was calming him minutes, Chief Woods was calming him minutes, Chief Woods was calming him down. We don't know, but it would sure down. We don't know, but it would sure down. We don't know, but it would sure be weird if he spent that long calming be weird if he spent that long calming be weird if he spent that long calming his friend down, but then basically told his friend down, but then basically told his friend down, but then basically told the family to like cool it because she the family to like cool it because she the family to like cool it because she aspirated. Well, then Michael goes on to aspirated. Well, then Michael goes on to aspirated. Well, then Michael goes on to tell 911 that her throat was slit. tell 911 that her throat was slit. tell 911 that her throat was slit. >> And Roy didn't overhear anything. >> And Roy didn't overhear anything. >> And Roy didn't overhear anything. >> He says no. He says that he knew he was >> He says no. He says that he knew he was >> He says no. He says that he knew he was making more than one call, but he making more than one call, but he making more than one call, but he suspected that Michael was calling his suspected that Michael was calling his suspected that Michael was calling his ex-wife first. I don't know why, but he ex-wife first. I don't know why, but he ex-wife first. I don't know why, but he says he didn't know it was the chief and says he didn't know it was the chief and says he didn't know it was the chief and like he couldn't hear much from the like he couldn't hear much from the like he couldn't hear much from the call. call. call. >> Could Chief Woods have been instructing >> Could Chief Woods have been instructing >> Could Chief Woods have been instructing Michael about what to do? Michael about what to do? Michael about what to do? >> Only two people know what was said in >> Only two people know what was said in >> Only two people know what was said in those 8 minutes. We reached out to Chief those 8 minutes. We reached out to Chief those 8 minutes. We reached out to Chief Woods, but we have not heard back yet.

Woods, but we have not heard back yet. Woods, but we have not heard back yet. What I will say is I think there's What I will say is I think there's What I will say is I think there's something interesting to remember. something interesting to remember. something interesting to remember. Floyd County had just changed its 911 Floyd County had just changed its 911 Floyd County had just changed its 911 call system. Remember, a few months call system. Remember, a few months call system. Remember, a few months before Amber's murder. It is possible before Amber's murder. It is possible before Amber's murder. It is possible that when Michael called 911, he that when Michael called 911, he that when Michael called 911, he expected Preston'sburg dispatch to send expected Preston'sburg dispatch to send expected Preston'sburg dispatch to send Prestonburg officers. Prestonburg officers. Prestonburg officers. >> Would it have made a difference? >> Would it have made a difference? >> Would it have made a difference? >> I don't know. >> I don't know. >> I don't know. One of the things I think about, and I One of the things I think about, and I One of the things I think about, and I might have mentioned this before, but might have mentioned this before, but might have mentioned this before, but like I recently went to a coroner's like I recently went to a coroner's like I recently went to a coroner's conference this year, and the educator conference this year, and the educator conference this year, and the educator there was warning against something that there was warning against something that there was warning against something that he sees a lot where responding officers he sees a lot where responding officers he sees a lot where responding officers or like a coroner with no death or like a coroner with no death or like a coroner with no death investigation training because like by investigation training because like by investigation training because like by the way, in some places, like to this the way, in some places, like to this the way, in some places, like to this day, you don't need any training to be a day, you don't need any training to be a day, you don't need any training to be a coroner. Just like got to be a high coroner. Just like got to be a high coroner. Just like got to be a high school graduate with a pulse. I'm not school graduate with a pulse. I'm not school graduate with a pulse. I'm not saying that's like the case here, but saying that's like the case here, but saying that's like the case here, but like anyways, someone with no like anyways, someone with no like anyways, someone with no investigative training can show up in investigative training can show up in investigative training can show up in some places to a scene and if that some places to a scene and if that some places to a scene and if that person says it's not suspicious, that's person says it's not suspicious, that's person says it's not suspicious, that's the end of the line. No criminal the end of the line. No criminal the end of the line. No criminal investigators come out, it is just over investigators come out, it is just over investigators come out, it is just over and done with.

and done with. and done with. >> But Michael said on the call with 911 >> But Michael said on the call with 911 >> But Michael said on the call with 911 that her throat was slit. that her throat was slit. that her throat was slit. >> I know that doesn't make sense to say if >> I know that doesn't make sense to say if >> I know that doesn't make sense to say if something sketchy was going on. So, I'm something sketchy was going on. So, I'm something sketchy was going on. So, I'm I'm not saying that in this case. I'm not saying that in this case. I'm not saying that in this case. I would pay good money to see first I would pay good money to see first I would pay good money to see first responders reports, who was dispatched, responders reports, who was dispatched, responders reports, who was dispatched, who showed up, when, why, but none of who showed up, when, why, but none of who showed up, when, why, but none of that has been released yet by the state that has been released yet by the state that has been released yet by the state police because Amber's family has some police because Amber's family has some police because Amber's family has some suspicions about the way that they think suspicions about the way that they think suspicions about the way that they think things went down and what was supposed things went down and what was supposed things went down and what was supposed to happen, but without documentation, I to happen, but without documentation, I to happen, but without documentation, I can't report on it. Not yet, at least. I can't report on it. Not yet, at least. I can't report on it. Not yet, at least. I can tell you that if someone was trying can tell you that if someone was trying can tell you that if someone was trying to cover this up, Debbie's family to cover this up, Debbie's family to cover this up, Debbie's family believes it wouldn't be the first cover believes it wouldn't be the first cover believes it wouldn't be the first cover up to happen in Floyd County, not even up to happen in Floyd County, not even up to happen in Floyd County, not even the first for their family. Remember how the first for their family. Remember how the first for their family. Remember how I told you that Amber grew up with her I told you that Amber grew up with her I told you that Amber grew up with her grandparents because both of her parents grandparents because both of her parents grandparents because both of her parents died? died? died? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, her mother Sharon died in 1988 >> Well, her mother Sharon died in 1988 >> Well, her mother Sharon died in 1988 after she got locked in a Prestonburg after she got locked in a Prestonburg after she got locked in a Prestonburg bar called the Wildcat Lounge and bar called the Wildcat Lounge and bar called the Wildcat Lounge and climbed up on a chair to break out a climbed up on a chair to break out a climbed up on a chair to break out a window. The story is that the chair window. The story is that the chair window. The story is that the chair collapsed and it left her stuck hanging collapsed and it left her stuck hanging collapsed and it left her stuck hanging from the window with her feet a few from the window with her feet a few from the window with her feet a few inches off the floor. So, she suffocated inches off the floor. So, she suffocated inches off the floor. So, she suffocated and it was just considered an accident.

and it was just considered an accident. and it was just considered an accident. The family feels that there wasn't much The family feels that there wasn't much The family feels that there wasn't much of an investigation at all. But Debbie of an investigation at all. But Debbie of an investigation at all. But Debbie says the family never bought that says the family never bought that says the family never bought that explanation. I mean, the bar owners explanation. I mean, the bar owners explanation. I mean, the bar owners swore that they had checked the place swore that they had checked the place swore that they had checked the place before closing that night and nobody was before closing that night and nobody was before closing that night and nobody was inside. And there's other cases that inside. And there's other cases that inside. And there's other cases that Debbie mentioned like Kristen Smith who Debbie mentioned like Kristen Smith who Debbie mentioned like Kristen Smith who was 33. She was found dead in her home was 33. She was found dead in her home was 33. She was found dead in her home by her boyfriend on June 2nd, 2021 in by her boyfriend on June 2nd, 2021 in by her boyfriend on June 2nd, 2021 in Martin, the same tiny city of around 500 Martin, the same tiny city of around 500 Martin, the same tiny city of around 500 where the McKinis live. And not just any where the McKinis live. And not just any where the McKinis live. And not just any boyfriend. A friend we spoke to who did boyfriend. A friend we spoke to who did boyfriend. A friend we spoke to who did not want to be named says that she was not want to be named says that she was not want to be named says that she was dating a local official. She was a mom dating a local official. She was a mom dating a local official. She was a mom of two kids and about to graduate from of two kids and about to graduate from of two kids and about to graduate from college. She'd worked really hard to college. She'd worked really hard to college. She'd worked really hard to complete a diploma that would mean that complete a diploma that would mean that complete a diploma that would mean that she could give her kids the kind of life she could give her kids the kind of life she could give her kids the kind of life that she wanted them to have without that she wanted them to have without that she wanted them to have without having to rely on anyone else. The same having to rely on anyone else. The same having to rely on anyone else. The same friend told us that after numerous friend told us that after numerous friend told us that after numerous instances of domestic violence, Kristen instances of domestic violence, Kristen instances of domestic violence, Kristen was leaving. And the next morning, she was leaving. And the next morning, she was leaving. And the next morning, she was found dead under what her family was found dead under what her family was found dead under what her family thinks are suspicious circumstances. thinks are suspicious circumstances. thinks are suspicious circumstances. According to WSAZ, her death was ruled a According to WSAZ, her death was ruled a According to WSAZ, her death was ruled a suicide. Her friend also told us that suicide. Her friend also told us that suicide. Her friend also told us that people in Floyd County just see this as people in Floyd County just see this as people in Floyd County just see this as kind of the way things happen in those kind of the way things happen in those kind of the way things happen in those parts. The same day Kristen was last parts. The same day Kristen was last parts. The same day Kristen was last seen alive, a woman named Candy Green seen alive, a woman named Candy Green seen alive, a woman named Candy Green Gonzalez, who was 36, was reported Gonzalez, who was 36, was reported Gonzalez, who was 36, was reported missing from Prestonburg.

missing from Prestonburg. missing from Prestonburg. Her family had last seen her the day Her family had last seen her the day Her family had last seen her the day before. Rumors online that we can't before. Rumors online that we can't before. Rumors online that we can't confirm say that Candi was dating the confirm say that Candi was dating the confirm say that Candi was dating the son of a local law enforcement officer. son of a local law enforcement officer. son of a local law enforcement officer. Now, one of Cand's relatives did tell us Now, one of Cand's relatives did tell us Now, one of Cand's relatives did tell us it's disturbing how much happens in it's disturbing how much happens in it's disturbing how much happens in Floyd County that just seems to get Floyd County that just seems to get Floyd County that just seems to get swept under the rug and is never talked swept under the rug and is never talked swept under the rug and is never talked about again. Women missing, women about again. Women missing, women about again. Women missing, women suspiciously dying, and no one suspiciously dying, and no one suspiciously dying, and no one convicted, especially if they have pull convicted, especially if they have pull convicted, especially if they have pull at the courthouse. People close to both at the courthouse. People close to both at the courthouse. People close to both women say that their cases weren't women say that their cases weren't women say that their cases weren't really investigated and they believe really investigated and they believe really investigated and they believe that the politicians and law enforcement that the politicians and law enforcement that the politicians and law enforcement in the county closed ranks to protect in the county closed ranks to protect in the county closed ranks to protect their own and there was almost no media their own and there was almost no media their own and there was almost no media coverage on these cases to expose any coverage on these cases to expose any coverage on these cases to expose any issues and that is what makes Amber's issues and that is what makes Amber's issues and that is what makes Amber's case different. case different. case different. >> And her case is so clearly homicide like >> And her case is so clearly homicide like >> And her case is so clearly homicide like there's no way to even try to call it there's no way to even try to call it there's no way to even try to call it something else. something else. something else. >> You mean like aspiration, >> You mean like aspiration, >> You mean like aspiration, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Yeah. But still, even with everything >> Yeah. But still, even with everything >> Yeah. But still, even with everything they have at that time, months go by they have at that time, months go by they have at that time, months go by while KSP waits for the forensic testing while KSP waits for the forensic testing while KSP waits for the forensic testing they did to come back because the lab is they did to come back because the lab is they did to come back because the lab is backlogged. And in that time, no one is backlogged. And in that time, no one is backlogged. And in that time, no one is arrested, which like how but who? Like arrested, which like how but who? Like arrested, which like how but who? Like you have six people in the house that you have six people in the house that you have six people in the house that night. I mean, one's dead, one is night. I mean, one's dead, one is night. I mean, one's dead, one is covered in blood and failed a polygraph.

covered in blood and failed a polygraph. covered in blood and failed a polygraph. The one with scratches on his arm left The one with scratches on his arm left The one with scratches on his arm left the house during like a very critical the house during like a very critical the house during like a very critical window of time when the murder is window of time when the murder is window of time when the murder is thought to have happened. One talked to thought to have happened. One talked to thought to have happened. One talked to police but said that she was asleep and police but said that she was asleep and police but said that she was asleep and everything was fine. And two others everything was fine. And two others everything was fine. And two others don't seem to be talking to police at don't seem to be talking to police at don't seem to be talking to police at all unless you count an off the books all unless you count an off the books all unless you count an off the books call to the chief of police before 911 call to the chief of police before 911 call to the chief of police before 911 was called. So who do you arrest? Like was called. So who do you arrest? Like was called. So who do you arrest? Like it can't be all of them. Not without it can't be all of them. Not without it can't be all of them. Not without proof. The community is outraged by this proof. The community is outraged by this proof. The community is outraged by this though, understandably. And at some though, understandably. And at some though, understandably. And at some point, members even rented a billboard point, members even rented a billboard point, members even rented a billboard that says justice for Amber. And they that says justice for Amber. And they that says justice for Amber. And they paid $3,000 every three months to keep paid $3,000 every three months to keep paid $3,000 every three months to keep it up. But finally, according to Debbie, it up. But finally, according to Debbie, it up. But finally, according to Debbie, 8 months later, 8 months later, 8 months later, >> 8 months >> 8 months >> 8 months >> 8 months later, the results finally >> 8 months later, the results finally >> 8 months later, the results finally start coming in. The blood on Royy's start coming in. The blood on Royy's start coming in. The blood on Royy's shirt shirt shirt >> is Royy's blood. >> is Royy's blood. >> is Royy's blood. No trace of Ambers. And that DNA under No trace of Ambers. And that DNA under No trace of Ambers. And that DNA under her nails, not Royy's her nails, not Royy's her nails, not Royy's and not Josh's.

and not Josh's. and not Josh's. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Now, the type of testing they have, they >> Now, the type of testing they have, they >> Now, the type of testing they have, they were working with YSTR testing, which were working with YSTR testing, which were working with YSTR testing, which looks at genetic markers on the Y looks at genetic markers on the Y looks at genetic markers on the Y chromosome. chromosome. chromosome. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And those get passed down from father to >> And those get passed down from father to >> And those get passed down from father to son. So all males along a direct son. So all males along a direct son. So all males along a direct paternal line have the same marker. paternal line have the same marker. paternal line have the same marker. >> So good news in this case, they have a >> So good news in this case, they have a >> So good news in this case, they have a match. It's McKini DNA. match. It's McKini DNA. match. It's McKini DNA. Bad news. Investigators can't say which Bad news. Investigators can't say which Bad news. Investigators can't say which one. It could be Michael or it could be one. It could be Michael or it could be one. It could be Michael or it could be MK or it could be any other male in that MK or it could be any other male in that MK or it could be any other male in that familial line for that matter. familial line for that matter. familial line for that matter. >> Yeah, but there wasn't any other family >> Yeah, but there wasn't any other family >> Yeah, but there wasn't any other family in the house that night. in the house that night. in the house that night. >> Very true. So, with investigators >> Very true. So, with investigators >> Very true. So, with investigators knowing that they were the only two men knowing that they were the only two men knowing that they were the only two men from that family in the house, from that family in the house, from that family in the house, >> and knowing that MK is the one who >> and knowing that MK is the one who >> and knowing that MK is the one who wasn't there when police showed up, and wasn't there when police showed up, and wasn't there when police showed up, and that he's the one who had scratches on that he's the one who had scratches on that he's the one who had scratches on his arms when they met with him 3 days his arms when they met with him 3 days his arms when they met with him 3 days after the murder, MK is the one who is after the murder, MK is the one who is after the murder, MK is the one who is finally charged with Amber's murder.

finally charged with Amber's murder. finally charged with Amber's murder. >> The one So, just him. >> The one So, just him. >> The one So, just him. >> Yeah. They charge MK with murder and >> Yeah. They charge MK with murder and >> Yeah. They charge MK with murder and what will eventually be eight counts of what will eventually be eight counts of what will eventually be eight counts of evidence tampering, but Michael and Josh evidence tampering, but Michael and Josh evidence tampering, but Michael and Josh get hit with evidence tampering charges, get hit with evidence tampering charges, get hit with evidence tampering charges, too. And they all plead not guilty. too. And they all plead not guilty. too. And they all plead not guilty. >> And Roy and Lauren, >> And Roy and Lauren, >> And Roy and Lauren, >> nada, which like was a little surprising >> nada, which like was a little surprising >> nada, which like was a little surprising to me. Not necessarily the Roy part to me. Not necessarily the Roy part to me. Not necessarily the Roy part based on just like how he cooperated and based on just like how he cooperated and based on just like how he cooperated and what we know from all like the pieces. I what we know from all like the pieces. I what we know from all like the pieces. I mean, I he said 9 out of 10 drunk. I mean, I he said 9 out of 10 drunk. I mean, I he said 9 out of 10 drunk. I think he was like a full 10 out of 10 think he was like a full 10 out of 10 think he was like a full 10 out of 10 drunk and asleep when whatever happened drunk and asleep when whatever happened drunk and asleep when whatever happened happened. happened. happened. >> But I am having a hard time figuring out >> But I am having a hard time figuring out >> But I am having a hard time figuring out like where Lauren is for all of this or like where Lauren is for all of this or like where Lauren is for all of this or why she's not a part of it. But Josh is why she's not a part of it. But Josh is why she's not a part of it. But Josh is if they both went to bed together like if they both went to bed together like if they both went to bed together like she said. she said. she said. >> Yeah. But the idea put forward in the >> Yeah. But the idea put forward in the >> Yeah. But the idea put forward in the indictment is that MK killed Amber and indictment is that MK killed Amber and indictment is that MK killed Amber and then with Michael and Josh quote then with Michael and Josh quote then with Michael and Josh quote removed, concealed or destroyed end removed, concealed or destroyed end removed, concealed or destroyed end quote. The handle on the knife used in quote. The handle on the knife used in quote. The handle on the knife used in the attack, MK's clothing, and the the attack, MK's clothing, and the the attack, MK's clothing, and the camera and digital recorder containing camera and digital recorder containing camera and digital recorder containing surveillance footage, the hard drive surveillance footage, the hard drive surveillance footage, the hard drive that would have contained footage of the that would have contained footage of the that would have contained footage of the murder. All of that. The indictment also murder. All of that. The indictment also murder. All of that. The indictment also alleges that Amber's blood was cleaned alleges that Amber's blood was cleaned alleges that Amber's blood was cleaned up from the kitchen and the laundry room up from the kitchen and the laundry room up from the kitchen and the laundry room sinks. And this is all before Michael sinks. And this is all before Michael sinks. And this is all before Michael ever makes any calls, like while Roy is ever makes any calls, like while Roy is ever makes any calls, like while Roy is still sleeping, still sleeping, still sleeping, >> presumably. Now, one thing I know I >> presumably. Now, one thing I know I >> presumably. Now, one thing I know I mentioned is that Roy said that Michael mentioned is that Roy said that Michael mentioned is that Roy said that Michael opened his bedroom door like right away opened his bedroom door like right away opened his bedroom door like right away when he starts pounding on it. It seems when he starts pounding on it. It seems when he starts pounding on it. It seems to me like Michael was already up or to me like Michael was already up or to me like Michael was already up or like maybe had never gone to bed.

like maybe had never gone to bed. like maybe had never gone to bed. >> So, did Roy interrupt a plan or was >> So, did Roy interrupt a plan or was >> So, did Roy interrupt a plan or was Michael waiting for someone else to find Michael waiting for someone else to find Michael waiting for someone else to find Amber? Like, I have no clue. Like I Amber? Like, I have no clue. Like I Amber? Like, I have no clue. Like I don't even think we can say for certain don't even think we can say for certain don't even think we can say for certain that Michael wasn't sleeping. that Michael wasn't sleeping. that Michael wasn't sleeping. >> But I think if evidence was destroyed >> But I think if evidence was destroyed >> But I think if evidence was destroyed like the prosecution is alleging, it like the prosecution is alleging, it like the prosecution is alleging, it probably happened before Roy woke up. probably happened before Roy woke up. probably happened before Roy woke up. And listen, there is still a lot we And listen, there is still a lot we And listen, there is still a lot we don't know. I mean, I get the feeling don't know. I mean, I get the feeling don't know. I mean, I get the feeling what has been released is only what has been released is only what has been released is only scratching the surface of what police scratching the surface of what police scratching the surface of what police have. I mean, yeah, like motive. How did have. I mean, yeah, like motive. How did have. I mean, yeah, like motive. How did this night spiral so like this night spiral so like this night spiral so like badly and quickly and all of it? That is badly and quickly and all of it? That is badly and quickly and all of it? That is the thing with this case. This is the the thing with this case. This is the the thing with this case. This is the big question big question big question still. still. still. But I'm not sure we're ever going to get But I'm not sure we're ever going to get But I'm not sure we're ever going to get a satisfying answer. I mean, like so a satisfying answer. I mean, like so a satisfying answer. I mean, like so often when it comes to violence against often when it comes to violence against often when it comes to violence against women, you see a sexual motive, but women, you see a sexual motive, but women, you see a sexual motive, but Amber was clothed from what we know, and Amber was clothed from what we know, and Amber was clothed from what we know, and there was no sign of sexual assault that there was no sign of sexual assault that there was no sign of sexual assault that was in the records. And the prosecution was in the records. And the prosecution was in the records. And the prosecution hasn't suggested that that's their hasn't suggested that that's their hasn't suggested that that's their theory either. The only thing that has theory either. The only thing that has theory either. The only thing that has been talked about is some worrisome been talked about is some worrisome been talked about is some worrisome behavior by MK that got uncovered in behavior by MK that got uncovered in behavior by MK that got uncovered in KSP's investigation. According to court KSP's investigation. According to court KSP's investigation. According to court docs, MK allegedly has a history of docs, MK allegedly has a history of docs, MK allegedly has a history of violent outbursts and mental violent outbursts and mental violent outbursts and mental instability.

instability. instability. Now, he doesn't have a criminal history, Now, he doesn't have a criminal history, Now, he doesn't have a criminal history, but what investigators hear paints a but what investigators hear paints a but what investigators hear paints a really disturbing picture. According to really disturbing picture. According to really disturbing picture. According to court records, a guy named Timothy Lyens court records, a guy named Timothy Lyens court records, a guy named Timothy Lyens told investigators that he had gone to told investigators that he had gone to told investigators that he had gone to the McKini house one night after the McKini house one night after the McKini house one night after drinking at Seasons, you know, the drinking at Seasons, you know, the drinking at Seasons, you know, the usual. And he alleges MK pulled out a usual. And he alleges MK pulled out a usual. And he alleges MK pulled out a knife and said that he was going to kill knife and said that he was going to kill knife and said that he was going to kill everyone there. And like 20 people were everyone there. And like 20 people were everyone there. And like 20 people were over. So everyone fled the basement over. So everyone fled the basement over. So everyone fled the basement according to Timothy. And then Michael according to Timothy. And then Michael according to Timothy. And then Michael wrestled the knife away from MK. And Roy wrestled the knife away from MK. And Roy wrestled the knife away from MK. And Roy even told investigators that he was even told investigators that he was even told investigators that he was talking to MK the night of the murder. talking to MK the night of the murder. talking to MK the night of the murder. and MK was confiding in him that he was and MK was confiding in him that he was and MK was confiding in him that he was experiencing suicidal thoughts and that experiencing suicidal thoughts and that experiencing suicidal thoughts and that he'd been hearing dark voices telling he'd been hearing dark voices telling he'd been hearing dark voices telling him to do bad things. Now, Roy says that him to do bad things. Now, Roy says that him to do bad things. Now, Roy says that he was really concerned and he tried to he was really concerned and he tried to he was really concerned and he tried to comfort him, but like given how much he comfort him, but like given how much he comfort him, but like given how much he drank, Roy was in no shape to like help drank, Roy was in no shape to like help drank, Roy was in no shape to like help anyone. anyone. anyone. >> But interestingly, MK's defense is not >> But interestingly, MK's defense is not >> But interestingly, MK's defense is not combating these charges with any kind of combating these charges with any kind of combating these charges with any kind of insanity defense, insanity defense, insanity defense, >> which I mean, I feel like that would be >> which I mean, I feel like that would be >> which I mean, I feel like that would be a struggle to pull off given that 6 a.m.

a struggle to pull off given that 6 a.m. a struggle to pull off given that 6 a.m. call he made. like you're lucid enough call he made. like you're lucid enough call he made. like you're lucid enough to call 911 about Roy, like worried to call 911 about Roy, like worried to call 911 about Roy, like worried about his state, about his state, about his state, >> right? So, if he wasn't experiencing an >> right? So, if he wasn't experiencing an >> right? So, if he wasn't experiencing an episode of psychosis and he did murder episode of psychosis and he did murder episode of psychosis and he did murder Amber like police allege and the Amber like police allege and the Amber like police allege and the prosecution alleges, prosecution alleges, prosecution alleges, then what was that call? then what was that call? then what was that call? Was this premeditated? Was he trying to Was this premeditated? Was he trying to Was this premeditated? Was he trying to frame Roy with that call? I mean, it frame Roy with that call? I mean, it frame Roy with that call? I mean, it might be totally unrelated, but pointing might be totally unrelated, but pointing might be totally unrelated, but pointing the finger at Roy does seem to be the the finger at Roy does seem to be the the finger at Roy does seem to be the strategy for MK's defense. We actually strategy for MK's defense. We actually strategy for MK's defense. We actually got MK's defense attorney, Steven Roind, got MK's defense attorney, Steven Roind, got MK's defense attorney, Steven Roind, on the phone. It's one of the first on the phone. It's one of the first on the phone. It's one of the first times he spoken publicly about the case. times he spoken publicly about the case. times he spoken publicly about the case. And one of the first things he pointed And one of the first things he pointed And one of the first things he pointed to for us was that first 911 call from to for us was that first 911 call from to for us was that first 911 call from MK about Roy being drunk and MK about Roy being drunk and MK about Roy being drunk and belligerent. He also pointed to police belligerent. He also pointed to police belligerent. He also pointed to police testimony to the grand jury that testimony to the grand jury that testimony to the grand jury that indicated Amber was upset at Roy for indicated Amber was upset at Roy for indicated Amber was upset at Roy for being so drunk and embarrassed by his being so drunk and embarrassed by his being so drunk and embarrassed by his behavior in front of her boss. behavior in front of her boss. behavior in front of her boss. >> So what? He killed her. >> So what? He killed her. >> So what? He killed her. >> MK's lawyer didn't say that. He's just >> MK's lawyer didn't say that. He's just >> MK's lawyer didn't say that. He's just like pointing to things that he thinks like pointing to things that he thinks like pointing to things that he thinks we should know and stuff I assume he's we should know and stuff I assume he's we should know and stuff I assume he's going to be sharing with a jury.

going to be sharing with a jury. going to be sharing with a jury. >> Wait, what about MK's dad lying about >> Wait, what about MK's dad lying about >> Wait, what about MK's dad lying about when MK left? Like he's the only one who when MK left? Like he's the only one who when MK left? Like he's the only one who left that morning. left that morning. left that morning. >> Well, we get that from Roy. I mean, Roy >> Well, we get that from Roy. I mean, Roy >> Well, we get that from Roy. I mean, Roy is the one telling police that Michael is the one telling police that Michael is the one telling police that Michael said that. said that. said that. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And MK's lawyer says that anything that >> And MK's lawyer says that anything that >> And MK's lawyer says that anything that comes out of Royy's mouth is worthless comes out of Royy's mouth is worthless comes out of Royy's mouth is worthless in his mind. He told us that Royy's cell in his mind. He told us that Royy's cell in his mind. He told us that Royy's cell phone was right beside Amber's body on phone was right beside Amber's body on phone was right beside Amber's body on the couch. I mean, remember he'd gone the couch. I mean, remember he'd gone the couch. I mean, remember he'd gone looking for it that morning and that's looking for it that morning and that's looking for it that morning and that's when he found Amber. when he found Amber. when he found Amber. >> And MK's attorney also points to the >> And MK's attorney also points to the >> And MK's attorney also points to the fact that Roy failed his polygraph test fact that Roy failed his polygraph test fact that Roy failed his polygraph test on remember those pretty substantial on remember those pretty substantial on remember those pretty substantial questions. questions. questions. >> And I'd also like to point out that Roy >> And I'd also like to point out that Roy >> And I'd also like to point out that Roy is the only one who actually took a is the only one who actually took a is the only one who actually took a polygraph polygraph polygraph >> that we know of. Correct. Crime junky >> that we know of. Correct. Crime junky >> that we know of. Correct. Crime junky life rule number four, never take a life rule number four, never take a life rule number four, never take a polygraph. polygraph. polygraph. >> But of course, those results aren't >> But of course, those results aren't >> But of course, those results aren't going to be admissible in court, going to be admissible in court, going to be admissible in court, >> right? MK's attorney says that >> right? MK's attorney says that >> right? MK's attorney says that investigators basically ruled Roy out investigators basically ruled Roy out investigators basically ruled Roy out because they thought that Roy was too because they thought that Roy was too because they thought that Roy was too drunk to kill someone, which he drunk to kill someone, which he drunk to kill someone, which he disagrees with. Oh, and the missing disagrees with. Oh, and the missing disagrees with. Oh, and the missing surveillance and camera equipment. surveillance and camera equipment. surveillance and camera equipment. >> Yes, >> Yes, >> Yes, >> we asked him about that and he says that >> we asked him about that and he says that >> we asked him about that and he says that he'll address that at trial, but he says he'll address that at trial, but he says he'll address that at trial, but he says that it had been removed weeks earlier that it had been removed weeks earlier that it had been removed weeks earlier because it was going to get replaced. As because it was going to get replaced. As because it was going to get replaced. As for why MK didn't cooperate with for why MK didn't cooperate with for why MK didn't cooperate with investigators, MK's lawyer says investigators, MK's lawyer says investigators, MK's lawyer says investigators implicated him immediately investigators implicated him immediately investigators implicated him immediately and so he wisely exercised his Fifth and so he wisely exercised his Fifth and so he wisely exercised his Fifth Amendment rights.

Amendment rights. Amendment rights. >> And what about the DNA? Like the DNA >> And what about the DNA? Like the DNA >> And what about the DNA? Like the DNA does not look good for his client. does not look good for his client. does not look good for his client. >> He said it's the weakest DNA evidence >> He said it's the weakest DNA evidence >> He said it's the weakest DNA evidence he's ever seen in connection to a case he's ever seen in connection to a case he's ever seen in connection to a case and that it could have come from and that it could have come from and that it could have come from anything like laying on a couch in anything like laying on a couch in anything like laying on a couch in someone's home. And listen, I don't have someone's home. And listen, I don't have someone's home. And listen, I don't have details about this DNA, but I do assume details about this DNA, but I do assume details about this DNA, but I do assume there was very little if all they could there was very little if all they could there was very little if all they could do was YSTR, right? If there would have do was YSTR, right? If there would have do was YSTR, right? If there would have been more, they could have gotten a been more, they could have gotten a been more, they could have gotten a sample to do a direct comparison with sample to do a direct comparison with sample to do a direct comparison with both of the McKinis, both of the McKinis, both of the McKinis, >> which I think would have helped their >> which I think would have helped their >> which I think would have helped their case against MK, right? If it ended up case against MK, right? If it ended up case against MK, right? If it ended up being his. So, I think that's going to being his. So, I think that's going to being his. So, I think that's going to be a point that MK's lawyer may be able be a point that MK's lawyer may be able be a point that MK's lawyer may be able to win with a jury. But guess who else to win with a jury. But guess who else to win with a jury. But guess who else we heard from right before we got ready we heard from right before we got ready we heard from right before we got ready to do this recording? Michael McKenna, to do this recording? Michael McKenna, to do this recording? Michael McKenna, MK's dad, got back to us and he had some MK's dad, got back to us and he had some MK's dad, got back to us and he had some interesting things to say. He accused interesting things to say. He accused interesting things to say. He accused Amber's family and supporters of using a Amber's family and supporters of using a Amber's family and supporters of using a quote paid social media campaign end quote paid social media campaign end quote paid social media campaign end quote to attack him and his family, quote to attack him and his family, quote to attack him and his family, which he said is an attempt for which he said is an attempt for which he said is an attempt for conviction in the court of public conviction in the court of public conviction in the court of public opinion. And he also said that the opinion. And he also said that the opinion. And he also said that the campaign made it so that Roy wasn't campaign made it so that Roy wasn't campaign made it so that Roy wasn't investigated, even though that Michael investigated, even though that Michael investigated, even though that Michael says the evidence against Roy is says the evidence against Roy is says the evidence against Roy is overwhelming.

overwhelming. overwhelming. and he points to some of the same and he points to some of the same and he points to some of the same factors as MK's lawyer did, like the factors as MK's lawyer did, like the factors as MK's lawyer did, like the failed polygraph, the fact that Roy failed polygraph, the fact that Roy failed polygraph, the fact that Roy eventually did stop talking to eventually did stop talking to eventually did stop talking to investigators. investigators. investigators. Michael says the campaign against his Michael says the campaign against his Michael says the campaign against his family is trying to quote contaminate family is trying to quote contaminate family is trying to quote contaminate the jury pool. And he also accused the the jury pool. And he also accused the the jury pool. And he also accused the prosecution of trying to delay the trial prosecution of trying to delay the trial prosecution of trying to delay the trial so that there is more time to influence so that there is more time to influence so that there is more time to influence prospective jurors. Now, the trial was prospective jurors. Now, the trial was prospective jurors. Now, the trial was set for December, but on October 20th, set for December, but on October 20th, set for December, but on October 20th, the prosecution did ask for more time. the prosecution did ask for more time. the prosecution did ask for more time. They wanted to continue to test more They wanted to continue to test more They wanted to continue to test more evidence. evidence. evidence. >> What evidence is there left to be >> What evidence is there left to be >> What evidence is there left to be tested? tested? tested? >> Apparently, there are at least 33 more >> Apparently, there are at least 33 more >> Apparently, there are at least 33 more items that need to be analyzed for DNA. items that need to be analyzed for DNA. items that need to be analyzed for DNA. Remember, the crime lab in Kentucky is Remember, the crime lab in Kentucky is Remember, the crime lab in Kentucky is seriously backed up. It took 8 months seriously backed up. It took 8 months seriously backed up. It took 8 months for that first batch of results to come for that first batch of results to come for that first batch of results to come back. So, the lab just didn't get it back. So, the lab just didn't get it back. So, the lab just didn't get it done in time. Now, the judge granted done in time. Now, the judge granted done in time. Now, the judge granted that request, cancelling the December that request, cancelling the December that request, cancelling the December 1st trial date, and basically they 1st trial date, and basically they 1st trial date, and basically they ordered everyone to come back in that ordered everyone to come back in that ordered everyone to come back in that day for a pre-trial conference instead. day for a pre-trial conference instead. day for a pre-trial conference instead. And so, I assume that they'll have a new And so, I assume that they'll have a new And so, I assume that they'll have a new trial date after that. And we're trial date after that. And we're trial date after that. And we're actually going to be live streaming the actually going to be live streaming the actually going to be live streaming the whole thing on the Crime Junkie Jury whole thing on the Crime Junkie Jury whole thing on the Crime Junkie Jury YouTube channel. So, please show up for YouTube channel. So, please show up for YouTube channel. So, please show up for Amber and her family. Come drop a Amber and her family. Come drop a Amber and her family. Come drop a comment, let them know that you are comment, let them know that you are comment, let them know that you are there, that you're supporting them. I there, that you're supporting them. I there, that you're supporting them. I know it would mean so much to them. And know it would mean so much to them. And know it would mean so much to them. And until then, like MK is in jail awaiting until then, like MK is in jail awaiting until then, like MK is in jail awaiting trial. Josh and Michael are both out on trial. Josh and Michael are both out on trial. Josh and Michael are both out on bail and house arrest with conditions.

bail and house arrest with conditions. bail and house arrest with conditions. Like they can kind of go about their Like they can kind of go about their Like they can kind of go about their business. Like Michael was still allowed business. Like Michael was still allowed business. Like Michael was still allowed to train other dentists while awaiting to train other dentists while awaiting to train other dentists while awaiting trial to save his dental practice and trial to save his dental practice and trial to save his dental practice and he's still allowed to go to his he's still allowed to go to his he's still allowed to go to his restaurant. And what about the Chief restaurant. And what about the Chief restaurant. And what about the Chief Woods of it all? Like if it were me, I Woods of it all? Like if it were me, I Woods of it all? Like if it were me, I would want to dig deeper into figuring would want to dig deeper into figuring would want to dig deeper into figuring out whether there was any kind of out whether there was any kind of out whether there was any kind of attempted cover up here. attempted cover up here. attempted cover up here. >> This is this is the other interesting >> This is this is the other interesting >> This is this is the other interesting part. So, Chief Woods ended up resigning part. So, Chief Woods ended up resigning part. So, Chief Woods ended up resigning from the Preston Police Department 5 from the Preston Police Department 5 from the Preston Police Department 5 days after Amber's murder. Now, in a days after Amber's murder. Now, in a days after Amber's murder. Now, in a statement quoted in local media at the statement quoted in local media at the statement quoted in local media at the time, he said that his resignation was time, he said that his resignation was time, he said that his resignation was because of the emotional toll of a June because of the emotional toll of a June because of the emotional toll of a June 2022 shooting in Floyd County that 2022 shooting in Floyd County that 2022 shooting in Floyd County that killed three police officers. killed three police officers. killed three police officers. >> Ashley, >> Ashley, >> Ashley, >> the resignation was right before the >> the resignation was right before the >> the resignation was right before the anniversary of the shooting. So, that is anniversary of the shooting. So, that is anniversary of the shooting. So, that is his official reason. Got it. his official reason. Got it. his official reason. Got it. Anyway, in June 2024, Amber's family Anyway, in June 2024, Amber's family Anyway, in June 2024, Amber's family brought a civil suit against multiple brought a civil suit against multiple brought a civil suit against multiple public officials and private public officials and private public officials and private individuals, including Chief Randy individuals, including Chief Randy individuals, including Chief Randy Woods, also the Prestonburg Police Woods, also the Prestonburg Police Woods, also the Prestonburg Police Department, the McKinis, Roy, and Department, the McKinis, Roy, and Department, the McKinis, Roy, and others, all alleging negligence, others, all alleging negligence, others, all alleging negligence, obstruction of justice, civil obstruction of justice, civil obstruction of justice, civil conspiracy, and other wrongdoings. And conspiracy, and other wrongdoings. And conspiracy, and other wrongdoings. And this was before they ever knew if there this was before they ever knew if there this was before they ever knew if there was going to be criminal charges. So, was going to be criminal charges. So, was going to be criminal charges. So, that case is still pending. A major part that case is still pending. A major part that case is still pending. A major part of the suit is what we mentioned about of the suit is what we mentioned about of the suit is what we mentioned about the 911 system transfer in Floyd County the 911 system transfer in Floyd County the 911 system transfer in Floyd County from the KSP to the city. And the from the KSP to the city. And the from the KSP to the city. And the lawsuit claims that that switch left the

lawsuit claims that that switch left the lawsuit claims that that switch left the county without adequate emergency county without adequate emergency county without adequate emergency coverage. And they say that contributed coverage. And they say that contributed coverage. And they say that contributed to Amber's murder because if someone had to Amber's murder because if someone had to Amber's murder because if someone had gone to the Mckin's house when MK first gone to the Mckin's house when MK first gone to the Mckin's house when MK first called 911 on Roy, she might still be called 911 on Roy, she might still be called 911 on Roy, she might still be alive. It has been beyond hard for alive. It has been beyond hard for alive. It has been beyond hard for Amber's family to watch the men accused Amber's family to watch the men accused Amber's family to watch the men accused of being involved in her death go about of being involved in her death go about of being involved in her death go about their day-to-day lives over the last their day-to-day lives over the last their day-to-day lives over the last couple of years. It's their hope that couple of years. It's their hope that couple of years. It's their hope that when they have their day in court that when they have their day in court that when they have their day in court that they're going to see justice for Amber they're going to see justice for Amber they're going to see justice for Amber because at the end of the day, they want because at the end of the day, they want because at the end of the day, they want to ensure that Amber herself never gets to ensure that Amber herself never gets to ensure that Amber herself never gets lost in this story. She endured so many lost in this story. She endured so many lost in this story. She endured so many tragedies and she was just finding her tragedies and she was just finding her tragedies and she was just finding her footing. And for things to end like this footing. And for things to end like this footing. And for things to end like this for her, like just doesn't seem fair. for her, like just doesn't seem fair. for her, like just doesn't seem fair. And they don't want her death to be for And they don't want her death to be for And they don't want her death to be for nothing. So they're pushing for a bill nothing. So they're pushing for a bill nothing. So they're pushing for a bill to be reintroduced in the Kentucky state to be reintroduced in the Kentucky state to be reintroduced in the Kentucky state legislature that would increase funding legislature that would increase funding legislature that would increase funding for crime labs so that investigators and for crime labs so that investigators and for crime labs so that investigators and families don't have to go through long families don't have to go through long families don't have to go through long waits that they had to in Amber's case.

waits that they had to in Amber's case. waits that they had to in Amber's case. >> It would be called Amber's law. and >> It would be called Amber's law. and >> It would be called Amber's law. and they're getting a lot of support from they're getting a lot of support from they're getting a lot of support from the community where they live and across the community where they live and across the community where they live and across the nation. Debbie tells us that she the nation. Debbie tells us that she the nation. Debbie tells us that she thinks it's because so many people in thinks it's because so many people in thinks it's because so many people in that area identify with Amber with her that area identify with Amber with her that area identify with Amber with her struggles and her losses. And as struggles and her losses. And as struggles and her losses. And as information came out after she was information came out after she was information came out after she was murdered and people caught wind of an murdered and people caught wind of an murdered and people caught wind of an alleged cover up, it really rubbed a lot alleged cover up, it really rubbed a lot alleged cover up, it really rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. So Debbie hopes of people the wrong way. So Debbie hopes of people the wrong way. So Debbie hopes Amber's case brings attention to the Amber's case brings attention to the Amber's case brings attention to the other loved ones of other missing people other loved ones of other missing people other loved ones of other missing people or people who may have died suspiciously or people who may have died suspiciously or people who may have died suspiciously in the county. and she actually took to in the county. and she actually took to in the county. and she actually took to the Facebook group that she created for the Facebook group that she created for the Facebook group that she created for Amber and she put this call out on it Amber and she put this call out on it Amber and she put this call out on it asking other people if they knew of asking other people if they knew of asking other people if they knew of cases that needed attention because she cases that needed attention because she cases that needed attention because she wants Amber's story to give other people wants Amber's story to give other people wants Amber's story to give other people some hope and some fight that you know some hope and some fight that you know some hope and some fight that you know if they can get out there and stand up if they can get out there and stand up if they can get out there and stand up and stick with it maybe there will be and stick with it maybe there will be and stick with it maybe there will be some change or some justice for them some change or some justice for them some change or some justice for them too. And people have been commenting too. And people have been commenting too. And people have been commenting with names, like so many names. It is with names, like so many names. It is with names, like so many names. It is totally overwhelming and we're having totally overwhelming and we're having totally overwhelming and we're having the team look into some of those cases the team look into some of those cases the team look into some of those cases now. So, we're going to keep you updated now. So, we're going to keep you updated now. So, we're going to keep you updated as we dig into those. And Debbie wrote as we dig into those. And Debbie wrote as we dig into those. And Debbie wrote in that same Facebook post that she had in that same Facebook post that she had in that same Facebook post that she had been hoping and praying that Amber would been hoping and praying that Amber would been hoping and praying that Amber would help bring attention and justice to help bring attention and justice to help bring attention and justice to others who needed it.

others who needed it. others who needed it. You can find all the source material for You can find all the source material for You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, this episode on our website, this episode on our website, crimejunkkey.com. crimejunkkey.com. crimejunkkey.com. And if you want to listen to more And if you want to listen to more And if you want to listen to more episodes like this one and all of our episodes like this one and all of our episodes like this one and all of our episodes adfree, be sure to join our fan episodes adfree, be sure to join our fan episodes adfree, be sure to join our fan club. You'll also get early access to club. You'll also get early access to club. You'll also get early access to episodes and tons of bonus episodes. And episodes and tons of bonus episodes. And episodes and tons of bonus episodes. And you can follow us on Instagram @ you can follow us on Instagram @ you can follow us on Instagram @ crimejunk podcast. We'll be back next crimejunk podcast. We'll be back next crimejunk podcast. We'll be back next week with another episode. What I'm about to brief you on is What I'm about to brief you on is something deeply troubling to me something deeply troubling to me something deeply troubling to me as a human being and as a police chief. as a human being and as a police chief. as a human being and as a police chief. On February 4th, On February 4th, On February 4th, 2021, 2021, 2021, 23-year-old Sandra Burmore was found 23-year-old Sandra Burmore was found 23-year-old Sandra Burmore was found deceased in her apartment in Kenton. deceased in her apartment in Kenton. deceased in her apartment in Kenton. What I am here to talk about today is What I am here to talk about today is What I am here to talk about today is her life her life her life and how she was failed by, manipulated and how she was failed by, manipulated and how she was failed by, manipulated by, by, by, and used by people of authority that she and used by people of authority that she and used by people of authority that she admired and trusted right up until her admired and trusted right up until her admired and trusted right up until her final days.

final days. final days. Miss Burmore was a vulnerable person Miss Burmore was a vulnerable person Miss Burmore was a vulnerable person who had one constant in her life who had one constant in her life who had one constant in her life since childhood. since childhood. since childhood. Her unwavering admiration Her unwavering admiration Her unwavering admiration of police officers, of police officers, of police officers, of those serving the military, people in of those serving the military, people in of those serving the military, people in uniform, uniform, uniform, people with oaths and duties to protect people with oaths and duties to protect people with oaths and duties to protect and serve. and serve. and serve. The admiration The admiration The admiration led her to form relationships led her to form relationships led her to form relationships with men who were willing to take with men who were willing to take with men who were willing to take advantage of her. I stand before you advantage of her. I stand before you advantage of her. I stand before you today as a civil servant who is today as a civil servant who is today as a civil servant who is heartbroken and insensed heartbroken and insensed heartbroken and insensed by what has transpired by what has transpired by what has transpired and who pledges and who pledges and who pledges to this to this to this that this chapter and the Stoen Police that this chapter and the Stoen Police that this chapter and the Stoen Police Department and the town of Stoton is Department and the town of Stoton is Department and the town of Stoton is over.

over. over. It must never repeat. The revolving door is closed. The revolving door is closed. >> There are so many stories we tell that >> There are so many stories we tell that >> There are so many stories we tell that involve corruption, cover-ups, or just involve corruption, cover-ups, or just involve corruption, cover-ups, or just downright incompetence or negligence downright incompetence or negligence downright incompetence or negligence that it makes me lose complete faith in that it makes me lose complete faith in that it makes me lose complete faith in the system. A system that is put in the system. A system that is put in the system. A system that is put in place to protect us. And doing this show place to protect us. And doing this show place to protect us. And doing this show for as long as I have, I've seen a lot for as long as I have, I've seen a lot for as long as I have, I've seen a lot more bad than good. The problems are more bad than good. The problems are more bad than good. The problems are systemic and at times I've even caught systemic and at times I've even caught systemic and at times I've even caught myself thinking like what is the point? myself thinking like what is the point? myself thinking like what is the point? Like we might as well just give up Like we might as well just give up Like we might as well just give up because the problems are so big and have because the problems are so big and have because the problems are so big and have been there for so long that maybe I'm been there for so long that maybe I'm been there for so long that maybe I'm the delusional one and this is just how the delusional one and this is just how the delusional one and this is just how the world is evil and the evil is so the world is evil and the evil is so the world is evil and the evil is so like deeply rooted that we are never like deeply rooted that we are never like deeply rooted that we are never going to win or never going to make a going to win or never going to make a going to win or never going to make a difference. But then when I need it the difference. But then when I need it the difference. But then when I need it the most, I get a glimpse of the good ones. most, I get a glimpse of the good ones. most, I get a glimpse of the good ones. The people who are fighting from the The people who are fighting from the The people who are fighting from the inside to make things better and fair inside to make things better and fair inside to make things better and fair and just. People who believe in right and just. People who believe in right and just. People who believe in right and wrong and know that no one is above and wrong and know that no one is above and wrong and know that no one is above the law. And those people give me hope the law. And those people give me hope the law. And those people give me hope all over again to keep fighting myself.

all over again to keep fighting myself. all over again to keep fighting myself. And I felt all of those feelings when And I felt all of those feelings when And I felt all of those feelings when covering today's story. despair that an covering today's story. despair that an covering today's story. despair that an entire agency could look the other way entire agency could look the other way entire agency could look the other way when so much evidence was at their when so much evidence was at their when so much evidence was at their fingertips suggesting a boy in blue fingertips suggesting a boy in blue fingertips suggesting a boy in blue might have killed a young woman to might have killed a young woman to might have killed a young woman to protect his reputation. And then this protect his reputation. And then this protect his reputation. And then this fire to kick ass and take names and get fire to kick ass and take names and get fire to kick ass and take names and get behind those people like Donna McNamera, behind those people like Donna McNamera, behind those people like Donna McNamera, the chief of the Stoen PD who you just the chief of the Stoen PD who you just the chief of the Stoen PD who you just heard at the top. She didn't just sit heard at the top. She didn't just sit heard at the top. She didn't just sit back and let it be. She found her own back and let it be. She found her own back and let it be. She found her own way to expose the truth and she lit a way to expose the truth and she lit a way to expose the truth and she lit a spark that other good people out there spark that other good people out there spark that other good people out there doing the right thing fanned into a doing the right thing fanned into a doing the right thing fanned into a flame to get justice for Sandra Birmore. flame to get justice for Sandra Birmore. flame to get justice for Sandra Birmore. So, let me tell you how that happened. February 4th, 2021, 23-year-old Sandra February 4th, 2021, 23-year-old Sandra Burmore was found dead in her Canton, Burmore was found dead in her Canton, Burmore was found dead in her Canton, Massachusetts apartment. Police Massachusetts apartment. Police Massachusetts apartment. Police discovered her body while responding to discovered her body while responding to discovered her body while responding to a welfare check requested by someone at a welfare check requested by someone at a welfare check requested by someone at the school where she worked because she the school where she worked because she the school where she worked because she hadn't shown up in days. Now, Sandra was hadn't shown up in days. Now, Sandra was hadn't shown up in days. Now, Sandra was found in a seated position on the floor found in a seated position on the floor found in a seated position on the floor by her bedroom closet with this duffel by her bedroom closet with this duffel by her bedroom closet with this duffel bag strap wrapped tightly around her bag strap wrapped tightly around her bag strap wrapped tightly around her neck and fixed to the handle of the neck and fixed to the handle of the neck and fixed to the handle of the closet door. The Massachusetts State closet door. The Massachusetts State closet door. The Massachusetts State Police didn't note any signs of forced Police didn't note any signs of forced Police didn't note any signs of forced entry to her apartment. The door was entry to her apartment. The door was entry to her apartment. The door was actually locked and they had to get a actually locked and they had to get a actually locked and they had to get a key from the property manager just to key from the property manager just to key from the property manager just to get in. And once they were inside, they get in. And once they were inside, they get in. And once they were inside, they didn't see any signs of a struggle at

didn't see any signs of a struggle at didn't see any signs of a struggle at all in the bedroom or anywhere else in all in the bedroom or anywhere else in all in the bedroom or anywhere else in the apartment. The walls didn't have any the apartment. The walls didn't have any the apartment. The walls didn't have any indentations or scuff marks. And there indentations or scuff marks. And there indentations or scuff marks. And there were no drag marks on the floor or were no drag marks on the floor or were no drag marks on the floor or anything like that. Even though the anything like that. Even though the anything like that. Even though the apartment was cluttered with baby items apartment was cluttered with baby items apartment was cluttered with baby items still in boxes for the child that Sandra still in boxes for the child that Sandra still in boxes for the child that Sandra was 8 to 10 weeks pregnant with, nothing was 8 to 10 weeks pregnant with, nothing was 8 to 10 weeks pregnant with, nothing seemed to be knocked over or moved. And seemed to be knocked over or moved. And seemed to be knocked over or moved. And surveillance footage from her apartment surveillance footage from her apartment surveillance footage from her apartment complex's lobby shows Sandra coming and complex's lobby shows Sandra coming and complex's lobby shows Sandra coming and going alone on Monday, February 1st, going alone on Monday, February 1st, going alone on Monday, February 1st, which is the last day she appears on which is the last day she appears on which is the last day she appears on camera and the day that officials camera and the day that officials camera and the day that officials believe she died. So, the suicide believe she died. So, the suicide believe she died. So, the suicide determination came quickly, even before determination came quickly, even before determination came quickly, even before the medical examiner's official ruling. the medical examiner's official ruling. the medical examiner's official ruling. All the Canton PD reports discussed this All the Canton PD reports discussed this All the Canton PD reports discussed this case as a suicide. And the Massachusetts case as a suicide. And the Massachusetts case as a suicide. And the Massachusetts State Police seemed to agree cuz I'm State Police seemed to agree cuz I'm State Police seemed to agree cuz I'm sure the more they learned about Sandra, sure the more they learned about Sandra, sure the more they learned about Sandra, like it just began to confirm their like it just began to confirm their like it just began to confirm their theory because she grew up struggling. theory because she grew up struggling. theory because she grew up struggling. Dad wasn't in the picture. Mom had Dad wasn't in the picture. Mom had Dad wasn't in the picture. Mom had chronic health challenges, oftentimes chronic health challenges, oftentimes chronic health challenges, oftentimes not being able to work, so they not being able to work, so they not being able to work, so they struggled to make ends meet. And from a struggled to make ends meet. And from a struggled to make ends meet. And from a young age, Sandra sort of took on the young age, Sandra sort of took on the young age, Sandra sort of took on the role of caretaker. And then in 2016, role of caretaker. And then in 2016, role of caretaker. And then in 2016, when Sandra was just 19 years old, her when Sandra was just 19 years old, her when Sandra was just 19 years old, her mom died of a stroke. And then just mom died of a stroke. And then just mom died of a stroke. And then just weeks later, her grandmother passed weeks later, her grandmother passed weeks later, her grandmother passed away, too. According to an unnamed away, too. According to an unnamed away, too. According to an unnamed source in a Boston Globe article, after source in a Boston Globe article, after source in a Boston Globe article, after these back-toback tragedies, Sandra these back-toback tragedies, Sandra these back-toback tragedies, Sandra began expressing suicidal thoughts in began expressing suicidal thoughts in began expressing suicidal thoughts in her journal entries. And she tried her journal entries. And she tried her journal entries. And she tried living with other family members after living with other family members after living with other family members after this, but she never really had that this, but she never really had that this, but she never really had that stable home base. And there was an

stable home base. And there was an stable home base. And there was an instance like eight or nine months instance like eight or nine months instance like eight or nine months before her death where Sandra got in a before her death where Sandra got in a before her death where Sandra got in a fight with the family member that she fight with the family member that she fight with the family member that she was living with and stormed out. That was living with and stormed out. That was living with and stormed out. That person called 911 concerned that Sandra person called 911 concerned that Sandra person called 911 concerned that Sandra might be at risk of hurting herself. might be at risk of hurting herself. might be at risk of hurting herself. Now, at the time of her death, she was Now, at the time of her death, she was Now, at the time of her death, she was about 2 and 1/2 months pregnant with about 2 and 1/2 months pregnant with about 2 and 1/2 months pregnant with what investigators would quickly find what investigators would quickly find what investigators would quickly find out was a married man's baby. So, it out was a married man's baby. So, it out was a married man's baby. So, it must have all just been too much. How must have all just been too much. How must have all just been too much. How sad. And when a pathologist from the sad. And when a pathologist from the sad. And when a pathologist from the office of the chief medical examiner office of the chief medical examiner office of the chief medical examiner agrees and rules this case a suicide, agrees and rules this case a suicide, agrees and rules this case a suicide, that's that. And there is a world where that's that. And there is a world where that's that. And there is a world where it would have ended right there. But not it would have ended right there. But not it would have ended right there. But not this one. Not this time. You see, even this one. Not this time. You see, even this one. Not this time. You see, even though Canton PD was the agency though Canton PD was the agency though Canton PD was the agency originally called and Massachusetts originally called and Massachusetts originally called and Massachusetts State Police eventually took over, the State Police eventually took over, the State Police eventually took over, the Stoen Police Department opened an Stoen Police Department opened an Stoen Police Department opened an internal affairs investigation the day internal affairs investigation the day internal affairs investigation the day after Sandra was found. after Sandra was found. after Sandra was found. >> And where in relation to all this is >> And where in relation to all this is >> And where in relation to all this is Stoen? Stoen? Stoen? >> It's just a town over from Canton. >> It's just a town over from Canton. >> It's just a town over from Canton. >> Okay. But the reason they're in the mix >> Okay. But the reason they're in the mix >> Okay. But the reason they're in the mix is because of who Sandra's baby daddy is because of who Sandra's baby daddy is because of who Sandra's baby daddy allegedly was. You see, Chief Donna allegedly was. You see, Chief Donna allegedly was. You see, Chief Donna McNamera heard from the Massachusetts McNamera heard from the Massachusetts McNamera heard from the Massachusetts State Police that one of her officers, a State Police that one of her officers, a State Police that one of her officers, a man named Matthew Farwell, may have been man named Matthew Farwell, may have been man named Matthew Farwell, may have been having an affair with Sandra, and that having an affair with Sandra, and that having an affair with Sandra, and that would have violated department policies.

would have violated department policies. would have violated department policies. Because, I mean, put him married with Because, I mean, put him married with Because, I mean, put him married with kids aside, Matthew Farwell was an kids aside, Matthew Farwell was an kids aside, Matthew Farwell was an officer who worked with their police officer who worked with their police officer who worked with their police explorers program. And Sandra in her explorers program. And Sandra in her explorers program. And Sandra in her youth was an explorer. And B, I know you youth was an explorer. And B, I know you youth was an explorer. And B, I know you know all about the program because it know all about the program because it know all about the program because it came up in our live show, but for the came up in our live show, but for the came up in our live show, but for the newbies out there, do you want to give newbies out there, do you want to give newbies out there, do you want to give them the lowdown? them the lowdown? them the lowdown? >> Yeah, this will be very surface level. >> Yeah, this will be very surface level. >> Yeah, this will be very surface level. But the explorers program is basically But the explorers program is basically But the explorers program is basically like an extracurricular program run by like an extracurricular program run by like an extracurricular program run by local law enforcement agencies and it's local law enforcement agencies and it's local law enforcement agencies and it's open to anyone from the ages of like open to anyone from the ages of like open to anyone from the ages of like what 6th grade to 20 years old. what 6th grade to 20 years old. what 6th grade to 20 years old. >> Um, who are interested in joining law >> Um, who are interested in joining law >> Um, who are interested in joining law enforcement one day. It's sort of like a enforcement one day. It's sort of like a enforcement one day. It's sort of like a junior police academy. They wear little junior police academy. They wear little junior police academy. They wear little uniforms, learn about investigations, do uniforms, learn about investigations, do uniforms, learn about investigations, do ride alongs, even apparently search for ride alongs, even apparently search for ride alongs, even apparently search for evidence sometimes. evidence sometimes. evidence sometimes. Usually the program is led by actual Usually the program is led by actual Usually the program is led by actual officers from the local department. So officers from the local department. So officers from the local department. So the kids who sign up get really close to the kids who sign up get really close to the kids who sign up get really close to them, which can be a really great thing them, which can be a really great thing them, which can be a really great thing in some cases, but potentially really in some cases, but potentially really in some cases, but potentially really dangerous in others. dangerous in others. dangerous in others. >> You are correct. Okay. So, I was about >> You are correct. Okay. So, I was about >> You are correct. Okay. So, I was about to ask if the state police knew about to ask if the state police knew about to ask if the state police knew about this, but if they're the ones who told this, but if they're the ones who told this, but if they're the ones who told the chief in Stoton, then they had to the chief in Stoton, then they had to the chief in Stoton, then they had to have.

have. have. >> Yeah, they did. And they were looking >> Yeah, they did. And they were looking >> Yeah, they did. And they were looking into it, too. Despite many files that into it, too. Despite many files that into it, too. Despite many files that refer to Sandra's death as a suicide, it refer to Sandra's death as a suicide, it refer to Sandra's death as a suicide, it does seem like they were still doing does seem like they were still doing does seem like they were still doing some leg work, like checking boxes, some leg work, like checking boxes, some leg work, like checking boxes, making sure they didn't miss anything making sure they didn't miss anything making sure they didn't miss anything big like the affair with a married big like the affair with a married big like the affair with a married officer. officer. officer. They even talked to him, collected his They even talked to him, collected his They even talked to him, collected his and Sandra's phone data. And in their and Sandra's phone data. And in their and Sandra's phone data. And in their interview with him, which takes place on interview with him, which takes place on interview with him, which takes place on February 6th in a school parking lot for February 6th in a school parking lot for February 6th in a school parking lot for some reason, Matthew admits that he was some reason, Matthew admits that he was some reason, Matthew admits that he was at Sandra's apartment that night. at Sandra's apartment that night. at Sandra's apartment that night. >> I'm sorry, what? >> I'm sorry, what? >> I'm sorry, what? >> Yeah. So, remember the surveillance >> Yeah. So, remember the surveillance >> Yeah. So, remember the surveillance video that showed her apartment lobby, video that showed her apartment lobby, video that showed her apartment lobby, right? She's coming. right? She's coming. right? She's coming. >> She's coming going by herself. >> She's coming going by herself. >> She's coming going by herself. >> Mhm. Well, it didn't just show her >> Mhm. Well, it didn't just show her >> Mhm. Well, it didn't just show her coming and going. And just a quick FYI, coming and going. And just a quick FYI, coming and going. And just a quick FYI, the footage was found to be 13 minutes the footage was found to be 13 minutes the footage was found to be 13 minutes off. So the times I'm going to be off. So the times I'm going to be off. So the times I'm going to be telling you have been adjusted for telling you have been adjusted for telling you have been adjusted for accuracy. But basically, Sandra gets accuracy. But basically, Sandra gets accuracy. But basically, Sandra gets home early from school because they had home early from school because they had home early from school because they had closed for a snow day on the 1st. A few closed for a snow day on the 1st. A few closed for a snow day on the 1st. A few hours later, after 5:00 p.m., she's hours later, after 5:00 p.m., she's hours later, after 5:00 p.m., she's caught on camera again picking up a food caught on camera again picking up a food caught on camera again picking up a food delivery. And then at 5:31 p.m., she's delivery. And then at 5:31 p.m., she's delivery. And then at 5:31 p.m., she's seen one last time stepping outside seen one last time stepping outside seen one last time stepping outside briefly to brush the snow off her car briefly to brush the snow off her car briefly to brush the snow off her car and then heading back upstairs. And and then heading back upstairs. And and then heading back upstairs. And that's it for Sandra. But they did look that's it for Sandra. But they did look that's it for Sandra. But they did look at the rest of the footage to see if at the rest of the footage to see if at the rest of the footage to see if there was anyone else suspicious on it.

there was anyone else suspicious on it. there was anyone else suspicious on it. And the maintenance supervisor at the And the maintenance supervisor at the And the maintenance supervisor at the apartment building tells officers that apartment building tells officers that apartment building tells officers that he recognizes everybody who enters the he recognizes everybody who enters the he recognizes everybody who enters the lobby that night except for one person. lobby that night except for one person. lobby that night except for one person. This tall, burly man wearing boots, This tall, burly man wearing boots, This tall, burly man wearing boots, jeans, a black jacket with a hood up, jeans, a black jacket with a hood up, jeans, a black jacket with a hood up, and what looks like a co mask, which and what looks like a co mask, which and what looks like a co mask, which almost entirely covers his face. Now, he almost entirely covers his face. Now, he almost entirely covers his face. Now, he entered the building at 9:14 p.m. and entered the building at 9:14 p.m. and entered the building at 9:14 p.m. and then left at 9:43. then left at 9:43. then left at 9:43. And the police report notes that the man And the police report notes that the man And the police report notes that the man wasn't wearing gloves and appeared to be wasn't wearing gloves and appeared to be wasn't wearing gloves and appeared to be white. white. white. >> And that's Matthew. >> And that's Matthew. >> And that's Matthew. >> I mean, we know now that it was Matthew >> I mean, we know now that it was Matthew >> I mean, we know now that it was Matthew because he is admitting it to police on because he is admitting it to police on because he is admitting it to police on the 6th, but at the time, it's a little the 6th, but at the time, it's a little the 6th, but at the time, it's a little hard to tell what they knew because this hard to tell what they knew because this hard to tell what they knew because this part of the police report is pretty part of the police report is pretty part of the police report is pretty heavily redacted. All I know is that one heavily redacted. All I know is that one heavily redacted. All I know is that one of the building workers says that they of the building workers says that they of the building workers says that they had seen this guy with Sandra before, had seen this guy with Sandra before, had seen this guy with Sandra before, but they didn't know who he was. And the but they didn't know who he was. And the but they didn't know who he was. And the leasing manager starts giving them at leasing manager starts giving them at leasing manager starts giving them at that point some information about a that point some information about a that point some information about a police officer that Sandra had been in a police officer that Sandra had been in a police officer that Sandra had been in a relationship with and how there was relationship with and how there was relationship with and how there was something that he was unhappy about that something that he was unhappy about that something that he was unhappy about that Sandra was nervous about. But honestly, Sandra was nervous about. But honestly, Sandra was nervous about. But honestly, it truly is almost impossible to make it truly is almost impossible to make it truly is almost impossible to make sense of this person's account with all sense of this person's account with all sense of this person's account with all of the redactions to the file, of the redactions to the file, of the redactions to the file, >> right? You're kind of just like barely >> right? You're kind of just like barely >> right? You're kind of just like barely able to kind of almost connect dots, able to kind of almost connect dots, able to kind of almost connect dots, >> right? So they were probably suspicious, >> right? So they were probably suspicious, >> right? So they were probably suspicious, but now they like, "No, no, it was him, but now they like, "No, no, it was him, but now they like, "No, no, it was him, right?" And his story seemed to again right?" And his story seemed to again right?" And his story seemed to again confirm their original hypothesis confirm their original hypothesis confirm their original hypothesis because he says that he met Sandra in because he says that he met Sandra in because he says that he met Sandra in the Explorer program. She was 13 when the Explorer program. She was 13 when the Explorer program. She was 13 when she joined. He was 24, but he says that

she joined. He was 24, but he says that she joined. He was 24, but he says that like nothing untoward happened. Matthew like nothing untoward happened. Matthew like nothing untoward happened. Matthew says that he knew Sandra had a troubled says that he knew Sandra had a troubled says that he knew Sandra had a troubled life and he felt bad for her, so he life and he felt bad for her, so he life and he felt bad for her, so he would like keep tabs on her over the would like keep tabs on her over the would like keep tabs on her over the years. But according to him, the years. But according to him, the years. But according to him, the relationship didn't become sexual until relationship didn't become sexual until relationship didn't become sexual until early 2020 when Sandra would have been early 2020 when Sandra would have been early 2020 when Sandra would have been 21. And that only happened because he 21. And that only happened because he 21. And that only happened because he says he got drunk one night and quote, says he got drunk one night and quote, says he got drunk one night and quote, "ended up meeting up with her and having "ended up meeting up with her and having "ended up meeting up with her and having sex." And then he says that they had sex sex." And then he says that they had sex sex." And then he says that they had sex two or three more times after that with two or three more times after that with two or three more times after that with the last time being in October of 2020. the last time being in October of 2020. the last time being in October of 2020. So does he say that they were like So does he say that they were like So does he say that they were like dating? Like how did he classify the dating? Like how did he classify the dating? Like how did he classify the relationship? Were they together? Well, relationship? Were they together? Well, relationship? Were they together? Well, so like I said, so he's married with two so like I said, so he's married with two so like I said, so he's married with two kids at that time. So at least on his kids at that time. So at least on his kids at that time. So at least on his end, this was very much not a public end, this was very much not a public end, this was very much not a public like relationship situation, like relationship situation, like relationship situation, >> but he goes on to say that in December >> but he goes on to say that in December >> but he goes on to say that in December of 2020, Sandra told him that she was of 2020, Sandra told him that she was of 2020, Sandra told him that she was pregnant and that he was the father. pregnant and that he was the father. pregnant and that he was the father. Now, in his interview, Matthew says that Now, in his interview, Matthew says that Now, in his interview, Matthew says that that wasn't possible and that the that wasn't possible and that the that wasn't possible and that the timeline didn't make any sense and just timeline didn't make any sense and just timeline didn't make any sense and just basically adamantly denies that he was basically adamantly denies that he was basically adamantly denies that he was the father of Sander's unborn child.

the father of Sander's unborn child. the father of Sander's unborn child. >> Okay, so then cut to the chase, Matthew. >> Okay, so then cut to the chase, Matthew. >> Okay, so then cut to the chase, Matthew. Why are you at her apartment the day she Why are you at her apartment the day she Why are you at her apartment the day she died? died? died? >> Yeah. So, he says that that night he >> Yeah. So, he says that that night he >> Yeah. So, he says that that night he asked Sandra if he could come over asked Sandra if he could come over asked Sandra if he could come over because he wanted to end things with her because he wanted to end things with her because he wanted to end things with her once and for all. He says that he hadn't once and for all. He says that he hadn't once and for all. He says that he hadn't seen her in about a week because he'd seen her in about a week because he'd seen her in about a week because he'd been trying to distance himself. But been trying to distance himself. But been trying to distance himself. But that was before he learned that Sandra that was before he learned that Sandra that was before he learned that Sandra was now telling people that he was the was now telling people that he was the was now telling people that he was the father of her child. So he went over father of her child. So he went over father of her child. So he went over that night and said that he told Sandra, that night and said that he told Sandra, that night and said that he told Sandra, quote, "She was crazy and that there was quote, "She was crazy and that there was quote, "She was crazy and that there was no way he could be the father of her no way he could be the father of her no way he could be the father of her baby based on her timeline and that he baby based on her timeline and that he baby based on her timeline and that he was just done with her." He said that was just done with her." He said that was just done with her." He said that the two of them kind of got into this the two of them kind of got into this the two of them kind of got into this pretty nasty argument, not anything like pretty nasty argument, not anything like pretty nasty argument, not anything like yelling or physical, but just like yelling or physical, but just like yelling or physical, but just like really tense. And before he left, he really tense. And before he left, he really tense. And before he left, he told her it was really over and he was told her it was really over and he was told her it was really over and he was blocking her on everything, which he blocking her on everything, which he blocking her on everything, which he did. And Matthew says Sandra was did. And Matthew says Sandra was did. And Matthew says Sandra was definitely upset, but that she didn't definitely upset, but that she didn't definitely upset, but that she didn't say anything about wanting to hurt say anything about wanting to hurt say anything about wanting to hurt herself. and he told police that she was herself. and he told police that she was herself. and he told police that she was very much alive and standing in the very much alive and standing in the very much alive and standing in the kitchen when he walked out. Now, they kitchen when he walked out. Now, they kitchen when he walked out. Now, they ask him to take a polygraph and submit ask him to take a polygraph and submit ask him to take a polygraph and submit to a DNA test presumably to verify his to a DNA test presumably to verify his to a DNA test presumably to verify his claim about the baby not being his.

claim about the baby not being his. claim about the baby not being his. >> But none of those things end up >> But none of those things end up >> But none of those things end up happening because Matthew gets an happening because Matthew gets an happening because Matthew gets an attorney who steps in. And this attorney who steps in. And this attorney who steps in. And this attorney, Patrick Hanley, actually attorney, Patrick Hanley, actually attorney, Patrick Hanley, actually writes a letter to an MSP sergeant writes a letter to an MSP sergeant writes a letter to an MSP sergeant saying that these requests don't make saying that these requests don't make saying that these requests don't make any sense for the investigation of a any sense for the investigation of a any sense for the investigation of a witness, which is what MSP had said witness, which is what MSP had said witness, which is what MSP had said Matthew was. I actually have a quote Matthew was. I actually have a quote Matthew was. I actually have a quote from Patrick. It says, from Patrick. It says, from Patrick. It says, "I advised my client to decline these "I advised my client to decline these "I advised my client to decline these requests and the request for further requests and the request for further requests and the request for further interview that accompanied them. I did interview that accompanied them. I did interview that accompanied them. I did so because they are far outside the norm so because they are far outside the norm so because they are far outside the norm for mere witnesses in an investigation. for mere witnesses in an investigation. for mere witnesses in an investigation. I was a prosecutor for 14 years and I was a prosecutor for 14 years and I was a prosecutor for 14 years and participated in hundreds of interviews participated in hundreds of interviews participated in hundreds of interviews with state police detectives like with state police detectives like with state police detectives like yourself. I cannot recall one seeking a yourself. I cannot recall one seeking a yourself. I cannot recall one seeking a polygraph interview and I can only polygraph interview and I can only polygraph interview and I can only recall seeking DNA of persons that the recall seeking DNA of persons that the recall seeking DNA of persons that the investigators and I considered targets. investigators and I considered targets. investigators and I considered targets. Mr. Farwell has already provided highly Mr. Farwell has already provided highly Mr. Farwell has already provided highly personal information. In my opinion, personal information. In my opinion, personal information. In my opinion, providing DNA is a step too far. End providing DNA is a step too far. End providing DNA is a step too far. End quote. quote. quote. Byer also underscores that Matthew had Byer also underscores that Matthew had Byer also underscores that Matthew had nothing to do with Sandra's death, that nothing to do with Sandra's death, that nothing to do with Sandra's death, that he never encouraged her to harm herself he never encouraged her to harm herself he never encouraged her to harm herself or believe that she might. And according or believe that she might. And according or believe that she might. And according to him, Sandra's death by suicide was a to him, Sandra's death by suicide was a to him, Sandra's death by suicide was a complete shock to Matthew. The thing complete shock to Matthew. The thing complete shock to Matthew. The thing Matthew does comply with is turning over Matthew does comply with is turning over Matthew does comply with is turning over his phone, but he warns that he deleted his phone, but he warns that he deleted his phone, but he warns that he deleted all the communications with Sandra.

all the communications with Sandra. all the communications with Sandra. Okay, that's fishy, right? Like they see Okay, that's fishy, right? Like they see Okay, that's fishy, right? Like they see that that's at least sus, right? They that that's at least sus, right? They that that's at least sus, right? They don't say. We just have a report that is don't say. We just have a report that is don't say. We just have a report that is very black and white. And I I even very black and white. And I I even very black and white. And I I even brought this one. brought this one. brought this one. So it just says on February 9th, 2021, So it just says on February 9th, 2021, So it just says on February 9th, 2021, Matthew Farwell consented to a data Matthew Farwell consented to a data Matthew Farwell consented to a data extraction of his personal iPhone 11, extraction of his personal iPhone 11, extraction of his personal iPhone 11, which was then extracted by trooper Nick which was then extracted by trooper Nick which was then extracted by trooper Nick Garino. On April 26th, 2021, I received Garino. On April 26th, 2021, I received Garino. On April 26th, 2021, I received Matthew's work cell phone from Stoton Matthew's work cell phone from Stoton Matthew's work cell phone from Stoton Police Department. Through Matthew's Police Department. Through Matthew's Police Department. Through Matthew's attorney, consent was given for a data attorney, consent was given for a data attorney, consent was given for a data extraction which was performed by extraction which was performed by extraction which was performed by trooper Nick Garino. I analyzed both of trooper Nick Garino. I analyzed both of trooper Nick Garino. I analyzed both of these phones and did not find any these phones and did not find any these phones and did not find any communication with Sandra Burgemore. communication with Sandra Burgemore. communication with Sandra Burgemore. Matt had said in a previous interview Matt had said in a previous interview Matt had said in a previous interview that he had deleted all communications that he had deleted all communications that he had deleted all communications with Sandra. So there's no like, oh, we with Sandra. So there's no like, oh, we with Sandra. So there's no like, oh, we think this was weird or not. think this was weird or not. think this was weird or not. >> Well, didn't see anything, >> Well, didn't see anything, >> Well, didn't see anything, >> right? So, Trooper Nicarino went through >> right? So, Trooper Nicarino went through >> right? So, Trooper Nicarino went through this. We know this, but another state this. We know this, but another state this. We know this, but another state police sergeant had started combing police sergeant had started combing police sergeant had started combing through Sandra's laptop that was through Sandra's laptop that was through Sandra's laptop that was collected from her apartment, collected from her apartment, collected from her apartment, >> the other end of the communication, >> the other end of the communication, >> the other end of the communication, >> right? And so he finds in that thousands >> right? And so he finds in that thousands >> right? And so he finds in that thousands of text messages between Sandra and of text messages between Sandra and of text messages between Sandra and Matthew in the 12 months or so before Matthew in the 12 months or so before Matthew in the 12 months or so before her death. Now the state police write her death. Now the state police write her death. Now the state police write that the text messages make it clear that the text messages make it clear that the text messages make it clear that Matthew and Sandra were in a sexual that Matthew and Sandra were in a sexual that Matthew and Sandra were in a sexual relationship, but they concluded that relationship, but they concluded that relationship, but they concluded that there was nothing threatening at all. So there was nothing threatening at all. So there was nothing threatening at all. So they must just be assuming that he they must just be assuming that he they must just be assuming that he deleted the messages to hide the affair.

deleted the messages to hide the affair. deleted the messages to hide the affair. Nothing murdery here. So case closed, Nothing murdery here. So case closed, Nothing murdery here. So case closed, right? right? right? >> Wrong. because Stoton PD was running >> Wrong. because Stoton PD was running >> Wrong. because Stoton PD was running their internal affairs investigation their internal affairs investigation their internal affairs investigation alongside this one. And in reviewing alongside this one. And in reviewing alongside this one. And in reviewing over 32,000 messages between Sandra and over 32,000 messages between Sandra and over 32,000 messages between Sandra and Matthew in the 14 months leading up to Matthew in the 14 months leading up to Matthew in the 14 months leading up to her death, they see a far more her death, they see a far more her death, they see a far more disturbing picture of Sandra's case. Some cases fade from headlines. Some Some cases fade from headlines. Some never made it there to begin with. I'm never made it there to begin with. I'm never made it there to begin with. I'm Ashley Flowers and on my podcast, The Ashley Flowers and on my podcast, The Ashley Flowers and on my podcast, The Deck, I tell you the stories of cold Deck, I tell you the stories of cold Deck, I tell you the stories of cold cases featured on playing cards cases featured on playing cards cases featured on playing cards distributed in prisons designed to spark distributed in prisons designed to spark distributed in prisons designed to spark new leads and bring long overdue new leads and bring long overdue new leads and bring long overdue justice. Because these stories deserve justice. Because these stories deserve justice. Because these stories deserve to be heard and the loved ones of these to be heard and the loved ones of these to be heard and the loved ones of these victims still deserve answers. Are you victims still deserve answers. Are you victims still deserve answers. Are you ready to be dealt in? Listen to the deck ready to be dealt in? Listen to the deck ready to be dealt in? Listen to the deck now wherever you get your podcasts. now wherever you get your podcasts. now wherever you get your podcasts. So the chief of Stoton Pey, Donna So the chief of Stoton Pey, Donna So the chief of Stoton Pey, Donna McNamera, opened that internal affairs McNamera, opened that internal affairs McNamera, opened that internal affairs investigation into Matthew Farwell the investigation into Matthew Farwell the investigation into Matthew Farwell the day after Sandra was found because she day after Sandra was found because she day after Sandra was found because she had heard from MSP about Matthew had heard from MSP about Matthew had heard from MSP about Matthew potentially having an illicit affair potentially having an illicit affair potentially having an illicit affair with Sandra, violating department with Sandra, violating department with Sandra, violating department policies. So she put Matthew on paid policies. So she put Matthew on paid policies. So she put Matthew on paid leave starting February 24th. And again, leave starting February 24th. And again, leave starting February 24th. And again, just to be 100% clear, her internal just to be 100% clear, her internal just to be 100% clear, her internal investigation was only meant to look investigation was only meant to look investigation was only meant to look into Matthew's misconduct, not Sandra's into Matthew's misconduct, not Sandra's into Matthew's misconduct, not Sandra's death.

death. death. >> Right. Chief McNamera and MSP had an >> Right. Chief McNamera and MSP had an >> Right. Chief McNamera and MSP had an understanding that MSP basically still understanding that MSP basically still understanding that MSP basically still maintained the jurisdiction over any maintained the jurisdiction over any maintained the jurisdiction over any criminal activity, even like anything criminal activity, even like anything criminal activity, even like anything that comes up in the internal that comes up in the internal that comes up in the internal investigation. And if the chief found investigation. And if the chief found investigation. And if the chief found any criminal culpability, she would any criminal culpability, she would any criminal culpability, she would basically pass all of that off to MSP. basically pass all of that off to MSP. basically pass all of that off to MSP. So like, sure, fine, whatever. That's So like, sure, fine, whatever. That's So like, sure, fine, whatever. That's the deal. the deal. the deal. >> She's not looking for it, but if she >> She's not looking for it, but if she >> She's not looking for it, but if she sees it, she'll hand it over. sees it, she'll hand it over. sees it, she'll hand it over. >> Yeah, I'm not going to take it. So her >> Yeah, I'm not going to take it. So her >> Yeah, I'm not going to take it. So her team starts looking at the phone data team starts looking at the phone data team starts looking at the phone data and the laptop that was previously and the laptop that was previously and the laptop that was previously analyzed by state police trooper Nick analyzed by state police trooper Nick analyzed by state police trooper Nick Garino. And these messages, which appear Garino. And these messages, which appear Garino. And these messages, which appear in federal and court documents, don't in federal and court documents, don't in federal and court documents, don't only suggest that Sandra and Matthew's only suggest that Sandra and Matthew's only suggest that Sandra and Matthew's sexual relationship began way before he sexual relationship began way before he sexual relationship began way before he originally said, but also that Matthew originally said, but also that Matthew originally said, but also that Matthew had disturbing sexual fantasies had disturbing sexual fantasies had disturbing sexual fantasies involving violence against women, involving violence against women, involving violence against women, choking, incest, pedophilia, necroilia, choking, incest, pedophilia, necroilia, choking, incest, pedophilia, necroilia, and rape. And I want everyone to hear and rape. And I want everyone to hear and rape. And I want everyone to hear some of these messages so you guys can some of these messages so you guys can some of these messages so you guys can get an idea of the tone of the get an idea of the tone of the get an idea of the tone of the communication between Sandra and communication between Sandra and communication between Sandra and Matthew. So I'm going to have a voice Matthew. So I'm going to have a voice Matthew. So I'm going to have a voice actor reading them because they are actor reading them because they are actor reading them because they are really disturbing. So like fair warning really disturbing. So like fair warning really disturbing. So like fair warning to everyone listening and also I don't to everyone listening and also I don't to everyone listening and also I don't want to look you in the eyes while I say want to look you in the eyes while I say want to look you in the eyes while I say feel him inside me. But I think this feel him inside me. But I think this feel him inside me. But I think this shows the full extent of Matthew's shows the full extent of Matthew's shows the full extent of Matthew's behavior. So, in a couple of exchanges, behavior. So, in a couple of exchanges, behavior. So, in a couple of exchanges, Matthew and Sandra talk about the Matthew and Sandra talk about the Matthew and Sandra talk about the beginning of their sexual relationship.

beginning of their sexual relationship. beginning of their sexual relationship. >> What was the first day you said, "OMG, I >> What was the first day you said, "OMG, I >> What was the first day you said, "OMG, I want this guy to be my first. I want to want this guy to be my first. I want to want this guy to be my first. I want to feel him inside me." feel him inside me." feel him inside me." >> Yeah. So, 2012, I finally decided that I >> Yeah. So, 2012, I finally decided that I >> Yeah. So, 2012, I finally decided that I was going to try and find a way to you was going to try and find a way to you was going to try and find a way to you and just wasn't sure how. I had and just wasn't sure how. I had and just wasn't sure how. I had butterflies so bad the day you took my butterflies so bad the day you took my butterflies so bad the day you took my virginity. virginity. virginity. >> Me, too. It was such a big day. >> Me, too. It was such a big day. >> Me, too. It was such a big day. >> It was April 10th, 2013. Best day of my >> It was April 10th, 2013. Best day of my >> It was April 10th, 2013. Best day of my life. life. life. >> Me, too. >> Me, too. >> Me, too. >> So, the sexual relationship actually >> So, the sexual relationship actually >> So, the sexual relationship actually began 7 years before Matthew told police began 7 years before Matthew told police began 7 years before Matthew told police that it began. that it began. that it began. >> Yes. And he actually even says that he >> Yes. And he actually even says that he >> Yes. And he actually even says that he wishes they'd done it sooner. wishes they'd done it sooner. wishes they'd done it sooner. >> I wish it had been a year sooner after >> I wish it had been a year sooner after >> I wish it had been a year sooner after helping you study at the library. helping you study at the library. helping you study at the library. >> I didn't even make you wait a year after >> I didn't even make you wait a year after >> I didn't even make you wait a year after that. that. that. >> I absolutely would have you in 12. >> I absolutely would have you in 12. >> I absolutely would have you in 12. >> In 12. >> In 12. >> In 12. >> 2012. >> 2012. >> 2012. And in 2012, Sandra would have been And in 2012, Sandra would have been And in 2012, Sandra would have been like, "What?" like, "What?" like, "What?" >> She was like 14 or 15. And he knows that >> She was like 14 or 15. And he knows that >> She was like 14 or 15. And he knows that this would have been bad for anyone else this would have been bad for anyone else this would have been bad for anyone else to find out. So, he asks her to get rid to find out. So, he asks her to get rid to find out. So, he asks her to get rid of their messages.

of their messages. of their messages. >> Clear that part out, baby. >> Clear that part out, baby. >> Clear that part out, baby. >> I did. >> I did. >> I did. >> Good girl. >> Good girl. >> Good girl. >> Again, I know how disturbing these are, >> Again, I know how disturbing these are, >> Again, I know how disturbing these are, but I really think it's important for but I really think it's important for but I really think it's important for our listeners to understand the power our listeners to understand the power our listeners to understand the power that Matthew knew he had over Sandra that Matthew knew he had over Sandra that Matthew knew he had over Sandra mentally and physically. By the way, mentally and physically. By the way, mentally and physically. By the way, because Sandra was 410, Matthew was 6'4. because Sandra was 410, Matthew was 6'4. because Sandra was 410, Matthew was 6'4. So, in one exchange, he says, So, in one exchange, he says, So, in one exchange, he says, >> "Lol, if I pushed, I absolutely could >> "Lol, if I pushed, I absolutely could >> "Lol, if I pushed, I absolutely could have you without condoms from day one. have you without condoms from day one. have you without condoms from day one. >> I was kind of scared to say no in the >> I was kind of scared to say no in the >> I was kind of scared to say no in the beginning, not knowing how you'd take beginning, not knowing how you'd take beginning, not knowing how you'd take it. So, yeah, you would have got no it. So, yeah, you would have got no it. So, yeah, you would have got no condoms." condoms." condoms." >> Other messages from Matthew revealed >> Other messages from Matthew revealed >> Other messages from Matthew revealed even more disturbing desires. even more disturbing desires. even more disturbing desires. >> Maybe I'll choke you a little. I'll grab >> Maybe I'll choke you a little. I'll grab >> Maybe I'll choke you a little. I'll grab your throat and say you won't say a word your throat and say you won't say a word your throat and say you won't say a word to anyone. Well, you say, "Matt, stop. to anyone. Well, you say, "Matt, stop. to anyone. Well, you say, "Matt, stop. I'm 13. I'm not ready for this. OMFG, I'm 13. I'm not ready for this. OMFG, I'm 13. I'm not ready for this. OMFG, please stop." please stop." please stop." >> According to sources cited in the Boston >> According to sources cited in the Boston >> According to sources cited in the Boston Globe, in the year leading up to her Globe, in the year leading up to her Globe, in the year leading up to her death, there are at least 20 times that death, there are at least 20 times that death, there are at least 20 times that Matthew texted Sandra about grabbing her Matthew texted Sandra about grabbing her Matthew texted Sandra about grabbing her throat, squeezing her throat, or choking throat, squeezing her throat, or choking throat, squeezing her throat, or choking her during sex. In another exchange, her during sex. In another exchange, her during sex. In another exchange, Sandra asked, Sandra asked, Sandra asked, >> "Do you want me to just take what you do >> "Do you want me to just take what you do >> "Do you want me to just take what you do or try and say no? I know being told no or try and say no? I know being told no or try and say no? I know being told no is your favorite."

is your favorite." is your favorite." >> Say no. >> Say no. >> Say no. >> Now, of course, all of these messages >> Now, of course, all of these messages >> Now, of course, all of these messages are from 2019 onward, so we have no way are from 2019 onward, so we have no way are from 2019 onward, so we have no way of knowing what Sandra and Matthew's of knowing what Sandra and Matthew's of knowing what Sandra and Matthew's communication was like before that. But communication was like before that. But communication was like before that. But in December of 2020, things took a in December of 2020, things took a in December of 2020, things took a notable turn. That's when Sandra texted notable turn. That's when Sandra texted notable turn. That's when Sandra texted Matthew about her pregnancy. That's when Matthew about her pregnancy. That's when Matthew about her pregnancy. That's when she sent him a photo of a colorful she sent him a photo of a colorful she sent him a photo of a colorful poster that she'd made with the word, poster that she'd made with the word, poster that she'd made with the word, "Congrats, we're going to be parents." "Congrats, we're going to be parents." "Congrats, we're going to be parents." And this is how he responded. And this is how he responded. And this is how he responded. >> "I literally have nothing to say right >> "I literally have nothing to say right >> "I literally have nothing to say right now. How could you express that in text now. How could you express that in text now. How could you express that in text when I said I don't appreciate it?" when I said I don't appreciate it?" when I said I don't appreciate it?" >> I'm mad you're acting how you are over a >> I'm mad you're acting how you are over a >> I'm mad you're acting how you are over a choice we both made. choice we both made. choice we both made. >> I'm mad you act like you gave anyone a >> I'm mad you act like you gave anyone a >> I'm mad you act like you gave anyone a choice. You are truly the worst person choice. You are truly the worst person choice. You are truly the worst person on the face of the earth. on the face of the earth. on the face of the earth. >> Matthew also asked how far along Sandra >> Matthew also asked how far along Sandra >> Matthew also asked how far along Sandra was. was. was. regardless of how far we're keeping it. regardless of how far we're keeping it. regardless of how far we're keeping it. But 3 and 1/2 weeks, which means I But 3 and 1/2 weeks, which means I But 3 and 1/2 weeks, which means I conceived this month. conceived this month. conceived this month. >> Okay. Well, we need to talk then. >> Okay. Well, we need to talk then. >> Okay. Well, we need to talk then. >> No, that's obvious.

>> No, that's obvious. >> No, that's obvious. And on December 29th, 2020, they did And on December 29th, 2020, they did And on December 29th, 2020, they did talk. This conversation was in person, talk. This conversation was in person, talk. This conversation was in person, so we have no way of knowing exactly how so we have no way of knowing exactly how so we have no way of knowing exactly how it went. But afterward, Sandra text it went. But afterward, Sandra text it went. But afterward, Sandra text Matthew this. It made me really Matthew this. It made me really Matthew this. It made me really uncomfortable and stressed out and uncomfortable and stressed out and uncomfortable and stressed out and scared when you were next to me because scared when you were next to me because scared when you were next to me because I thought you were going to hit me after I thought you were going to hit me after I thought you were going to hit me after you said what you said and took things you said what you said and took things you said what you said and took things out of my hand. That's why I was crying. out of my hand. That's why I was crying. out of my hand. That's why I was crying. I know you wouldn't, but it still scared I know you wouldn't, but it still scared I know you wouldn't, but it still scared me. So, clearly he's not happy about the me. So, clearly he's not happy about the me. So, clearly he's not happy about the pregnancy. pregnancy. pregnancy. >> I mean, yeah, it's a lot harder to hide >> I mean, yeah, it's a lot harder to hide >> I mean, yeah, it's a lot harder to hide from your wife than just an affair. from your wife than just an affair. from your wife than just an affair. Well, and at an especially bad time, Well, and at an especially bad time, Well, and at an especially bad time, because I didn't mention this yet, but because I didn't mention this yet, but because I didn't mention this yet, but when Matthew left Sandra's apartment when Matthew left Sandra's apartment when Matthew left Sandra's apartment that night, February 1st, guess where he that night, February 1st, guess where he that night, February 1st, guess where he went? The delivery room, because his went? The delivery room, because his went? The delivery room, because his wife was in labor with their third baby. wife was in labor with their third baby. wife was in labor with their third baby. So, yeah, he's about to have a new baby So, yeah, he's about to have a new baby So, yeah, he's about to have a new baby with his wife, and Sandra is telling him with his wife, and Sandra is telling him with his wife, and Sandra is telling him she's pregnant, too. Now, maybe he would she's pregnant, too. Now, maybe he would she's pregnant, too. Now, maybe he would have found some way to keep this under have found some way to keep this under have found some way to keep this under wraps, but on January 20th, Matthew wraps, but on January 20th, Matthew wraps, but on January 20th, Matthew found out that Sandra had been telling found out that Sandra had been telling found out that Sandra had been telling people about their affair. Apparently, people about their affair. Apparently, people about their affair. Apparently, he had been under the impression that it he had been under the impression that it he had been under the impression that it was like their little secret, but it was was like their little secret, but it was was like their little secret, but it was far from it in Sandra's circles. And far from it in Sandra's circles. And far from it in Sandra's circles. And apparently, leading up to her death, apparently, leading up to her death, apparently, leading up to her death, this friend, who we're going to call this friend, who we're going to call this friend, who we're going to call Jill, tried to use that to her Jill, tried to use that to her Jill, tried to use that to her advantage. Jill said that her and Sandra advantage. Jill said that her and Sandra advantage. Jill said that her and Sandra got into an argument about some money got into an argument about some money got into an argument about some money that Sandra owed her. And Jill told that Sandra owed her. And Jill told that Sandra owed her. And Jill told Sandra that if she didn't start to pay Sandra that if she didn't start to pay Sandra that if she didn't start to pay up, she was going to go file a police up, she was going to go file a police up, she was going to go file a police report, which she did on January 20th,

report, which she did on January 20th, report, which she did on January 20th, just weeks before Sandra's death. When just weeks before Sandra's death. When just weeks before Sandra's death. When Stoen PD told Jill that this was a civil Stoen PD told Jill that this was a civil Stoen PD told Jill that this was a civil matter, Jill got upset and in her anger, matter, Jill got upset and in her anger, matter, Jill got upset and in her anger, she over the phone basically said, she over the phone basically said, she over the phone basically said, "Well, like you can tell whatever police "Well, like you can tell whatever police "Well, like you can tell whatever police officer detective that Sandra's in a officer detective that Sandra's in a officer detective that Sandra's in a sexual relationship with that he can sexual relationship with that he can sexual relationship with that he can tell her to pay back the money." tell her to pay back the money." tell her to pay back the money." >> And how did the officer on the phone >> And how did the officer on the phone >> And how did the officer on the phone respond to that? They went straight to respond to that? They went straight to respond to that? They went straight to Matthew and they're like, um, what's Matthew and they're like, um, what's Matthew and they're like, um, what's this about? And according to this about? And according to this about? And according to investigative files, Matthew got really investigative files, Matthew got really investigative files, Matthew got really rattled and told that person, quote, not rattled and told that person, quote, not rattled and told that person, quote, not to speak about this to anyone and to to speak about this to anyone and to to speak about this to anyone and to never talk about it again. End quote. never talk about it again. End quote. never talk about it again. End quote. And whoever he told that to must have And whoever he told that to must have And whoever he told that to must have kept their code of silence since we know kept their code of silence since we know kept their code of silence since we know the internal affairs investigation did the internal affairs investigation did the internal affairs investigation did not start then, not start then, not start then, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> But that day after Matthew was >> But that day after Matthew was >> But that day after Matthew was approached about the affair, he texted approached about the affair, he texted approached about the affair, he texted Sandra. Dude, youring friend called my Sandra. Dude, youring friend called my Sandra. Dude, youring friend called my job Sandra WTF. You also told me that no job Sandra WTF. You also told me that no job Sandra WTF. You also told me that no one knew about us. Yet she claimed we one knew about us. Yet she claimed we one knew about us. Yet she claimed we areing.

areing. areing. >> It's literally nothing. >> It's literally nothing. >> It's literally nothing. >> It's not nothing. She called my job. >> It's not nothing. She called my job. >> It's not nothing. She called my job. That's insane. Like you have no idea how That's insane. Like you have no idea how That's insane. Like you have no idea how bad what she did is. I literally can't bad what she did is. I literally can't bad what she did is. I literally can't believe this is even real life. Like believe this is even real life. Like believe this is even real life. Like what else do I have to worry about now? what else do I have to worry about now? what else do I have to worry about now? Which other friend will do something Which other friend will do something Which other friend will do something tomorrow? tomorrow? tomorrow? And what's so weird is after this And what's so weird is after this And what's so weird is after this interaction, Matthew just out of nowhere interaction, Matthew just out of nowhere interaction, Matthew just out of nowhere completely changes his tune and starts completely changes his tune and starts completely changes his tune and starts to speak really positively to Sandra to speak really positively to Sandra to speak really positively to Sandra about their whole situation. And Sandra about their whole situation. And Sandra about their whole situation. And Sandra actually texted her friend about it. So actually texted her friend about it. So actually texted her friend about it. So the father came by last night. It was the father came by last night. It was the father came by last night. It was like a complete 360 change. 180. like a complete 360 change. 180. like a complete 360 change. 180. >> Yeah. Lol. >> Yeah. Lol. >> Yeah. Lol. >> Good or bad? >> Good or bad? >> Good or bad? >> Good, but unexpected. So, it kind of >> Good, but unexpected. So, it kind of >> Good, but unexpected. So, it kind of threw me off and made me a little threw me off and made me a little threw me off and made me a little uncomfortable, but that's cuz of how uncomfortable, but that's cuz of how uncomfortable, but that's cuz of how things were going, but it was like a things were going, but it was like a things were going, but it was like a complete 180 from where we were at. On complete 180 from where we were at. On complete 180 from where we were at. On this same night, along with having a this same night, along with having a this same night, along with having a heartto-he heart, Matthew also asked heartto-he heart, Matthew also asked heartto-he heart, Matthew also asked Sandra for a key to her apartment and Sandra for a key to her apartment and Sandra for a key to her apartment and the code to her building's entrance. But the code to her building's entrance. But the code to her building's entrance. But even with him seemingly doing everything even with him seemingly doing everything even with him seemingly doing everything right, like saying the perfect things, right, like saying the perfect things, right, like saying the perfect things, there were moments where Sandra felt there were moments where Sandra felt there were moments where Sandra felt uneasy, like something wasn't quite uneasy, like something wasn't quite uneasy, like something wasn't quite right. The day of that 180° change right. The day of that 180° change right. The day of that 180° change conversation on January 24th, Sandra conversation on January 24th, Sandra conversation on January 24th, Sandra texted a friend about something weird.

texted a friend about something weird. texted a friend about something weird. Last night, he opened my closet door for Last night, he opened my closet door for Last night, he opened my closet door for something and then he went in my something and then he went in my something and then he went in my bathroom looking at my bathroom. And bathroom looking at my bathroom. And bathroom looking at my bathroom. And then I have a dolly in my living room then I have a dolly in my living room then I have a dolly in my living room that he asked why I had it. was just that he asked why I had it. was just that he asked why I had it. was just really odd. He started looking around. I really odd. He started looking around. I really odd. He started looking around. I don't know. It was really weird. don't know. It was really weird. don't know. It was really weird. >> Then on January 29th, Sandra reminded >> Then on January 29th, Sandra reminded >> Then on January 29th, Sandra reminded Matthew what the code to enter apartment Matthew what the code to enter apartment Matthew what the code to enter apartment complex was. And Matthew asked her to complex was. And Matthew asked her to complex was. And Matthew asked her to confirm that it was a general code for confirm that it was a general code for confirm that it was a general code for the entire building, not just like a the entire building, not just like a the entire building, not just like a personal code for Sandra. And that personal code for Sandra. And that personal code for Sandra. And that basically brings us to February 1st, basically brings us to February 1st, basically brings us to February 1st, >> the day that Sandra died. >> the day that Sandra died. >> the day that Sandra died. >> Yes. Matthew texted Sandra at around >> Yes. Matthew texted Sandra at around >> Yes. Matthew texted Sandra at around 9:00 p.m. asking if he could come by for 9:00 p.m. asking if he could come by for 9:00 p.m. asking if he could come by for a second. She responded that she would a second. She responded that she would a second. She responded that she would leave her door open for him. And that leave her door open for him. And that leave her door open for him. And that was the last known message that Sandra was the last known message that Sandra was the last known message that Sandra would ever send. would ever send. would ever send. I guess I'm confused right now. Like MSP I guess I'm confused right now. Like MSP I guess I'm confused right now. Like MSP had these messages from Sandra's laptop, had these messages from Sandra's laptop, had these messages from Sandra's laptop, right? Like are they just ignoring them?

right? Like are they just ignoring them? right? Like are they just ignoring them? >> It's really bizarre. So listen, hang on. >> It's really bizarre. So listen, hang on. >> It's really bizarre. So listen, hang on. I'm just going to read you exactly what I'm just going to read you exactly what I'm just going to read you exactly what they say about the laptop messages in they say about the laptop messages in they say about the laptop messages in the report. Keep in mind again moderate the report. Keep in mind again moderate the report. Keep in mind again moderate actions here, but it says this. Over the actions here, but it says this. Over the actions here, but it says this. Over the next several weeks, I analyzed data from next several weeks, I analyzed data from next several weeks, I analyzed data from Sandra's laptop. In particular, I was Sandra's laptop. In particular, I was Sandra's laptop. In particular, I was investigating any criminal conduct investigating any criminal conduct investigating any criminal conduct related to Sandra's death. And something related to Sandra's death. And something related to Sandra's death. And something redacted here. Sandra's laptop gave me redacted here. Sandra's laptop gave me redacted here. Sandra's laptop gave me access to approximately 12 months of IME access to approximately 12 months of IME access to approximately 12 months of IME messages, social media content, and messages, social media content, and messages, social media content, and other documents/databases. other documents/databases. other documents/databases. Matt and Sandra had texted thousands of Matt and Sandra had texted thousands of Matt and Sandra had texted thousands of times over the year, as well as times over the year, as well as times over the year, as well as communication with many other friends communication with many other friends communication with many other friends and family of Sandra. It was clear based and family of Sandra. It was clear based and family of Sandra. It was clear based on texts with Matt that he and Sandra on texts with Matt that he and Sandra on texts with Matt that he and Sandra had a sexual relationship, as he told us had a sexual relationship, as he told us had a sexual relationship, as he told us in his previous interview. Then there's in his previous interview. Then there's in his previous interview. Then there's this big redacted chunk followed by this big redacted chunk followed by this big redacted chunk followed by this. All of these conversations were this. All of these conversations were this. All of these conversations were flagged in the forensics report of her flagged in the forensics report of her flagged in the forensics report of her laptop. Sandra communicated often with laptop. Sandra communicated often with laptop. Sandra communicated often with friends and family. It appeared Sandra friends and family. It appeared Sandra friends and family. It appeared Sandra had sexual relationships with other men had sexual relationships with other men had sexual relationships with other men in the months leading up to her death.

in the months leading up to her death. in the months leading up to her death. There were no threats of harm by any of There were no threats of harm by any of There were no threats of harm by any of these individuals, including Matt. End these individuals, including Matt. End these individuals, including Matt. End quote. That's it. That's literally the quote. That's it. That's literally the quote. That's it. That's literally the last sentence on the last page of the last sentence on the last page of the last sentence on the last page of the MSP report that we received. No threats MSP report that we received. No threats MSP report that we received. No threats of harm, so no criminal culpability. of harm, so no criminal culpability. of harm, so no criminal culpability. But clearly there is a crime here, But clearly there is a crime here, But clearly there is a crime here, right? right? right? >> Well, >> Well, >> Well, put possible murder aside. put possible murder aside. put possible murder aside. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Chief McNamera can't look into that, >> Chief McNamera can't look into that, >> Chief McNamera can't look into that, right? Because that's not her right? Because that's not her right? Because that's not her jurisdiction. jurisdiction. jurisdiction. >> But yeah, the sexual abuse of an >> But yeah, the sexual abuse of an >> But yeah, the sexual abuse of an explorer within the department she now explorer within the department she now explorer within the department she now is chief of move out the way. Like she is chief of move out the way. Like she is chief of move out the way. Like she is charging full steam ahead. Cuz here's is charging full steam ahead. Cuz here's is charging full steam ahead. Cuz here's the thing. Along with now being sure the thing. Along with now being sure the thing. Along with now being sure that Matthew abused a minor in the that Matthew abused a minor in the that Matthew abused a minor in the program, other witnesses come forward program, other witnesses come forward program, other witnesses come forward and say that Sandra told them he wasn't and say that Sandra told them he wasn't and say that Sandra told them he wasn't the only one. According to people who knew Sandra, and According to people who knew Sandra, and I want to preface this by saying much of I want to preface this by saying much of I want to preface this by saying much of this information is unconfirmed, but this information is unconfirmed, but this information is unconfirmed, but they say that Matthew Farwell wasn't the they say that Matthew Farwell wasn't the they say that Matthew Farwell wasn't the only Stoen Police Department employee only Stoen Police Department employee only Stoen Police Department employee who Sandra had a sexual relationship who Sandra had a sexual relationship who Sandra had a sexual relationship with. She also had one with William with. She also had one with William with. She also had one with William Farwell, Matthew's twin brother.

Farwell, Matthew's twin brother. Farwell, Matthew's twin brother. What? When? How? And did did the What? When? How? And did did the What? When? How? And did did the brothers know about each other's brothers know about each other's brothers know about each other's relationships with Sandra? So William is relationships with Sandra? So William is relationships with Sandra? So William is also an officer with the Stoton Police also an officer with the Stoton Police also an officer with the Stoton Police Department. They also met through the Department. They also met through the Department. They also met through the Explorers program because he was a guest Explorers program because he was a guest Explorers program because he was a guest instructor. So when they talk to him, he instructor. So when they talk to him, he instructor. So when they talk to him, he admits it, but like bad case of deja vu. admits it, but like bad case of deja vu. admits it, but like bad case of deja vu. He says that he had quote been with He says that he had quote been with He says that he had quote been with Sandra sexually maybe two to three times Sandra sexually maybe two to three times Sandra sexually maybe two to three times and the last of which was sometime in and the last of which was sometime in and the last of which was sometime in December of 2020. December of 2020. December of 2020. >> But that was when she was also seeing >> But that was when she was also seeing >> But that was when she was also seeing Matthew Matthew Matthew >> apparently. So clearly there is >> apparently. So clearly there is >> apparently. So clearly there is something bigger happening here. So something bigger happening here. So something bigger happening here. So Chief McNamera's agency hires multiple Chief McNamera's agency hires multiple Chief McNamera's agency hires multiple PIs and outside consultants and over the PIs and outside consultants and over the PIs and outside consultants and over the course of nearly 19 months they go down course of nearly 19 months they go down course of nearly 19 months they go down every rabbit hole you can think of. And every rabbit hole you can think of. And every rabbit hole you can think of. And guess what? It didn't even end there. guess what? It didn't even end there. guess what? It didn't even end there. Implicated in the internal affairs Implicated in the internal affairs Implicated in the internal affairs investigation was another man named investigation was another man named investigation was another man named Robert Divine who was a former deputy Robert Divine who was a former deputy Robert Divine who was a former deputy chief of the Stoton Police Department chief of the Stoton Police Department chief of the Stoton Police Department and the officer in charge of the and the officer in charge of the and the officer in charge of the Explorers program. Robert is actually Explorers program. Robert is actually Explorers program. Robert is actually the man that brought Matthew and his the man that brought Matthew and his the man that brought Matthew and his twin brother into the program as guest twin brother into the program as guest twin brother into the program as guest instructors. In interviews, Robert first instructors. In interviews, Robert first instructors. In interviews, Robert first claims to have no knowledge of the claims to have no knowledge of the claims to have no knowledge of the Farwell brother's relationships with Farwell brother's relationships with Farwell brother's relationships with Sandra, but then he later clarifies that Sandra, but then he later clarifies that Sandra, but then he later clarifies that Sandra did bring it up to him as a Sandra did bring it up to him as a Sandra did bring it up to him as a consenting adult, and Robert didn't consenting adult, and Robert didn't consenting adult, and Robert didn't believe her. According to Robert, while believe her. According to Robert, while believe her. According to Robert, while he and Sandra were never formally in he and Sandra were never formally in he and Sandra were never formally in touch, she would often seek him out touch, she would often seek him out touch, she would often seek him out while he was on duty, offering coffee, while he was on duty, offering coffee, while he was on duty, offering coffee, hanging around to talk, and showing what

hanging around to talk, and showing what hanging around to talk, and showing what he described as an obsession with police he described as an obsession with police he described as an obsession with police officers. He said this happened about officers. He said this happened about officers. He said this happened about once a week. So, you know, she's just once a week. So, you know, she's just once a week. So, you know, she's just obsessed with them. What What could they obsessed with them. What What could they obsessed with them. What What could they have done? What could they possibly do, have done? What could they possibly do, have done? What could they possibly do, Ashley? Ashley? Ashley? >> It's a gross implication to me that like >> It's a gross implication to me that like >> It's a gross implication to me that like she was the problem. All because she she was the problem. All because she she was the problem. All because she wanted to be a police officer because wanted to be a police officer because wanted to be a police officer because she really did love that program. I she really did love that program. I she really did love that program. I mean, Sandra joined the Explorers mean, Sandra joined the Explorers mean, Sandra joined the Explorers program in 2010 when she was 13 years program in 2010 when she was 13 years program in 2010 when she was 13 years old. And apparently, she was drawn to old. And apparently, she was drawn to old. And apparently, she was drawn to police officers from a very young age. police officers from a very young age. police officers from a very young age. They represented everything she wanted. They represented everything she wanted. They represented everything she wanted. Safety, stability, the things that she Safety, stability, the things that she Safety, stability, the things that she didn't have growing up. Family members didn't have growing up. Family members didn't have growing up. Family members have said that Sandra deeply respected have said that Sandra deeply respected have said that Sandra deeply respected police, even idolized them. According to police, even idolized them. According to police, even idolized them. According to reporting from Boston magazine, she reporting from Boston magazine, she reporting from Boston magazine, she joined the Explorers program not only to joined the Explorers program not only to joined the Explorers program not only to fulfill her dreams of becoming an fulfill her dreams of becoming an fulfill her dreams of becoming an officer herself, but also to find the officer herself, but also to find the officer herself, but also to find the mentorship and direction that she mentorship and direction that she mentorship and direction that she craved. But instead, she was prayed craved. But instead, she was prayed craved. But instead, she was prayed upon. Chief McNamera's investigation upon. Chief McNamera's investigation upon. Chief McNamera's investigation found that Sandra and Robert had been found that Sandra and Robert had been found that Sandra and Robert had been formally in touch and communicating by formally in touch and communicating by formally in touch and communicating by Facebook Messenger from 2020 up until Facebook Messenger from 2020 up until Facebook Messenger from 2020 up until her death. According to the report, her death. According to the report, her death. According to the report, Robert explains this by quote Robert explains this by quote Robert explains this by quote outrageously making claims about outrageously making claims about outrageously making claims about accounts being hacked.

accounts being hacked. accounts being hacked. In McNamera's investigation, multiple In McNamera's investigation, multiple In McNamera's investigation, multiple witness interviewed also described a witness interviewed also described a witness interviewed also described a pattern of inappropriate conduct within pattern of inappropriate conduct within pattern of inappropriate conduct within the Explorer program, including hugging, the Explorer program, including hugging, the Explorer program, including hugging, kissing, even encounters in a closet kissing, even encounters in a closet kissing, even encounters in a closet involving Robert and the Farwell involving Robert and the Farwell involving Robert and the Farwell brothers, as well as comments like, brothers, as well as comments like, brothers, as well as comments like, "Come back and see me after you turn "Come back and see me after you turn "Come back and see me after you turn 18." One witness recalls Sandra talking 18." One witness recalls Sandra talking 18." One witness recalls Sandra talking about the stress officers were under and about the stress officers were under and about the stress officers were under and the way that they looked for outlets. In the way that they looked for outlets. In the way that they looked for outlets. In the end, McNamera recommends that the end, McNamera recommends that the end, McNamera recommends that Robert, William, and Matthew all have Robert, William, and Matthew all have Robert, William, and Matthew all have their police certifications revoked and their police certifications revoked and their police certifications revoked and be entered into the National be entered into the National be entered into the National Descertification Index. And there is at Descertification Index. And there is at Descertification Index. And there is at least one other officer from another least one other officer from another least one other officer from another department found to be complicit as department found to be complicit as department found to be complicit as well. I well. I well. I >> mean, so what now? The men just get like >> mean, so what now? The men just get like >> mean, so what now? The men just get like a slap on the wrist. a slap on the wrist. a slap on the wrist. >> Well, they actually all resign before >> Well, they actually all resign before >> Well, they actually all resign before any sort of action can even be taken, any sort of action can even be taken, any sort of action can even be taken, >> of course. And in September 2022, Chief >> of course. And in September 2022, Chief >> of course. And in September 2022, Chief McNamera holds a press conference about McNamera holds a press conference about McNamera holds a press conference about her investigation where she publicly her investigation where she publicly her investigation where she publicly addresses the entire situation for the addresses the entire situation for the addresses the entire situation for the first time.

first time. first time. >> What I'm about to brief you on is >> What I'm about to brief you on is >> What I'm about to brief you on is something deeply troubling to me something deeply troubling to me something deeply troubling to me as a human being and as a police chief. as a human being and as a police chief. as a human being and as a police chief. On February 4th, On February 4th, On February 4th, 2021, 2021, 2021, 23-year-old Sandra Burmore was found 23-year-old Sandra Burmore was found 23-year-old Sandra Burmore was found deceased in her apartment in Canton. deceased in her apartment in Canton. deceased in her apartment in Canton. I am not here today to talk about the I am not here today to talk about the I am not here today to talk about the subsequent investigation into Miss subsequent investigation into Miss subsequent investigation into Miss Burmore's death. Burmore's death. Burmore's death. Her death was investigated by the Her death was investigated by the Her death was investigated by the Norfolk District Attorney's Office. What Norfolk District Attorney's Office. What Norfolk District Attorney's Office. What I am here to talk about today is her I am here to talk about today is her I am here to talk about today is her life and how she was failed by, life and how she was failed by, life and how she was failed by, manipulated by, manipulated by, manipulated by, and used by people of authority that she and used by people of authority that she and used by people of authority that she admired and trusted right up until her admired and trusted right up until her admired and trusted right up until her final days. final days. final days. Miss Burmore was a vulnerable person Miss Burmore was a vulnerable person Miss Burmore was a vulnerable person who had one constant in her life who had one constant in her life who had one constant in her life since childhood.

since childhood. since childhood. Her unwavering admiration Her unwavering admiration Her unwavering admiration of police officers, of police officers, of police officers, of those serving the military, people in of those serving the military, people in of those serving the military, people in uniform, uniform, uniform, people with oaths and duties to protect people with oaths and duties to protect people with oaths and duties to protect and serve. and serve. and serve. The admiration The admiration The admiration led her to form relationships led her to form relationships led her to form relationships with men who were willing to take with men who were willing to take with men who were willing to take advantage of her. The Fowler brothers in advantage of her. The Fowler brothers in advantage of her. The Fowler brothers in Divine Divine Divine violated their oaths of office violated their oaths of office violated their oaths of office and should never have the privilege and should never have the privilege and should never have the privilege of serving any community as a police of serving any community as a police of serving any community as a police officer. officer. officer. through a sustained and deliberate com through a sustained and deliberate com through a sustained and deliberate com combination of lies, deceit, and combination of lies, deceit, and combination of lies, deceit, and treachery. treachery. treachery. They violated the policies and the core They violated the policies and the core They violated the policies and the core values of the Stoton Police Department, values of the Stoton Police Department, values of the Stoton Police Department, not to mention human decency. I stand not to mention human decency. I stand not to mention human decency. I stand before you today as a civil servant who before you today as a civil servant who before you today as a civil servant who is heartbroken and insensed is heartbroken and insensed is heartbroken and insensed by what has transpired by what has transpired by what has transpired and who pledges and who pledges and who pledges to this to this to this that this chapter and the Stoen Police that this chapter and the Stoen Police that this chapter and the Stoen Police Department and the town of Stoton is Department and the town of Stoton is Department and the town of Stoton is over.

over. over. It must never repeat. The revolving door is closed. The revolving door is closed. >> Chief McNamera turns all her findings >> Chief McNamera turns all her findings >> Chief McNamera turns all her findings over to the Norfolk DA's office. I over to the Norfolk DA's office. I over to the Norfolk DA's office. I assume for prosecution based on her assume for prosecution based on her assume for prosecution based on her agency's findings of what would be agency's findings of what would be agency's findings of what would be statutory rape. statutory rape. statutory rape. >> But they declined to press any charges. >> But they declined to press any charges. >> But they declined to press any charges. >> I'm sorry. What in the good old boys >> I'm sorry. What in the good old boys >> I'm sorry. What in the good old boys club is happening here? Well, in a 2022 club is happening here? Well, in a 2022 club is happening here? Well, in a 2022 statement, a spokesperson for the DA statement, a spokesperson for the DA statement, a spokesperson for the DA says that statutory rape would be says that statutory rape would be says that statutory rape would be difficult to prove given that Sandra, difficult to prove given that Sandra, difficult to prove given that Sandra, the main witness, was dead. the main witness, was dead. the main witness, was dead. >> Okay, but she's dead because he might >> Okay, but she's dead because he might >> Okay, but she's dead because he might have killed her. Like, this this can't have killed her. Like, this this can't have killed her. Like, this this can't be the loophole. Yeah, Sandra's family be the loophole. Yeah, Sandra's family be the loophole. Yeah, Sandra's family is furious over this. I haven't even is furious over this. I haven't even is furious over this. I haven't even spoken much about them yet, but they spoken much about them yet, but they spoken much about them yet, but they were fighting for her every step of the were fighting for her every step of the were fighting for her every step of the way. I mean, from the second that her way. I mean, from the second that her way. I mean, from the second that her aunt was notified on day one about aunt was notified on day one about aunt was notified on day one about Sandra's quote unquote suicide, she knew Sandra's quote unquote suicide, she knew Sandra's quote unquote suicide, she knew something was up. I mean, not only did something was up. I mean, not only did something was up. I mean, not only did she know that Sandra was actually in a she know that Sandra was actually in a she know that Sandra was actually in a really happy place before her death, but really happy place before her death, but really happy place before her death, but also when her and other relatives went also when her and other relatives went also when her and other relatives went to Sandra's apartment after her death, to Sandra's apartment after her death, to Sandra's apartment after her death, the place gave all the signs of someone the place gave all the signs of someone the place gave all the signs of someone who did not take their life. When they who did not take their life. When they who did not take their life. When they started going through her things, started going through her things, started going through her things, everything that they saw made it seem everything that they saw made it seem everything that they saw made it seem like Sandra's passing was extremely like Sandra's passing was extremely like Sandra's passing was extremely abrupt. There were still wet clothes in abrupt. There were still wet clothes in abrupt. There were still wet clothes in the washing machine and unopened the washing machine and unopened the washing machine and unopened packages, plus more deliveries on the

packages, plus more deliveries on the packages, plus more deliveries on the way. She even had cats that she had left way. She even had cats that she had left way. She even had cats that she had left unattended when police finally found unattended when police finally found unattended when police finally found her, which made zero sense because she her, which made zero sense because she her, which made zero sense because she had actually already started making had actually already started making had actually already started making plans to have somebody look after those plans to have somebody look after those plans to have somebody look after those same cats while she gave birth, which same cats while she gave birth, which same cats while she gave birth, which would have been like 7 months later. But would have been like 7 months later. But would have been like 7 months later. But one of the most telling things, I think, one of the most telling things, I think, one of the most telling things, I think, is what her family finds in the bedroom. is what her family finds in the bedroom. is what her family finds in the bedroom. They found Sandra's necklace, this They found Sandra's necklace, this They found Sandra's necklace, this keepsake from her grandmother. It was keepsake from her grandmother. It was keepsake from her grandmother. It was this thin gold chain with like a pink this thin gold chain with like a pink this thin gold chain with like a pink flamingo charm, and it was laying on the flamingo charm, and it was laying on the flamingo charm, and it was laying on the floor. The chain had snapped in the floor. The chain had snapped in the floor. The chain had snapped in the middle, and then there was this clump of middle, and then there was this clump of middle, and then there was this clump of hair tangled in it. I hair tangled in it. I hair tangled in it. I >> mean, to me, that feels like a a sign of >> mean, to me, that feels like a a sign of >> mean, to me, that feels like a a sign of a struggle. Did police not see it? a struggle. Did police not see it? a struggle. Did police not see it? >> Well, apparently the necklace was broken >> Well, apparently the necklace was broken >> Well, apparently the necklace was broken and like hanging off of her neck when and like hanging off of her neck when and like hanging off of her neck when they found her, which is documented with they found her, which is documented with they found her, which is documented with photographs, but it wasn't collected. photographs, but it wasn't collected. photographs, but it wasn't collected. So, I guess officers didn't think it was So, I guess officers didn't think it was So, I guess officers didn't think it was relevant. So, when it fell to the floor relevant. So, when it fell to the floor relevant. So, when it fell to the floor as they're I assume like moving her as they're I assume like moving her as they're I assume like moving her body, they either didn't notice it or body, they either didn't notice it or body, they either didn't notice it or like didn't care and collect it. like didn't care and collect it. like didn't care and collect it. >> And did the family show them? >> And did the family show them? >> And did the family show them? >> Oh, yeah. They handed over the necklace >> Oh, yeah. They handed over the necklace >> Oh, yeah. They handed over the necklace to police right away, but that to police right away, but that to police right away, but that apparently didn't change anything for apparently didn't change anything for apparently didn't change anything for them. So, the family members took it them. So, the family members took it them. So, the family members took it upon themselves to galvanize the upon themselves to galvanize the upon themselves to galvanize the community on social media, getting community on social media, getting community on social media, getting people who knew Sandra to come forward people who knew Sandra to come forward people who knew Sandra to come forward and share stories. so many stories that and share stories. so many stories that and share stories. so many stories that pointed to the Explorer program and pointed to the Explorer program and pointed to the Explorer program and stories that helped build out McNamera's stories that helped build out McNamera's stories that helped build out McNamera's internal investigation. So now to hear internal investigation. So now to hear internal investigation. So now to hear that nothing was going to come of it, that nothing was going to come of it, that nothing was going to come of it, like that was infuriating. So in like that was infuriating. So in like that was infuriating. So in December of 2022, Sandra's family tries December of 2022, Sandra's family tries December of 2022, Sandra's family tries a different approach. They file a

a different approach. They file a a different approach. They file a wrongful death suit in Norfol County wrongful death suit in Norfol County wrongful death suit in Norfol County Superior Court, accusing Matthew, Superior Court, accusing Matthew, Superior Court, accusing Matthew, William, and Robert of grooming and William, and Robert of grooming and William, and Robert of grooming and sexually abusing Sandra from a young age sexually abusing Sandra from a young age sexually abusing Sandra from a young age and implicating them in her death. The and implicating them in her death. The and implicating them in her death. The family alleges wrongful death, negligent family alleges wrongful death, negligent family alleges wrongful death, negligent supervision, negligent retention, pain supervision, negligent retention, pain supervision, negligent retention, pain and suffering, and emotional distress, and suffering, and emotional distress, and suffering, and emotional distress, among other things. And they among other things. And they among other things. And they specifically mention an ongoing scheme specifically mention an ongoing scheme specifically mention an ongoing scheme of grooming and misconduct, which they of grooming and misconduct, which they of grooming and misconduct, which they say led to Sandra's death. So that say led to Sandra's death. So that say led to Sandra's death. So that litigation is still ongoing and a litigation is still ongoing and a litigation is still ongoing and a judgment date is set for May of 2026. So judgment date is set for May of 2026. So judgment date is set for May of 2026. So Sandra's family members are really the Sandra's family members are really the Sandra's family members are really the only ones actually looking into her only ones actually looking into her only ones actually looking into her death as like anything other than a death as like anything other than a death as like anything other than a suicide. suicide. suicide. >> So this is what I was saying where you >> So this is what I was saying where you >> So this is what I was saying where you get this like moment where you're like get this like moment where you're like get this like moment where you're like the system is not working. Everything's the system is not working. Everything's the system is not working. Everything's broken broken broken >> but there are good eggs within it. So, >> but there are good eggs within it. So, >> but there are good eggs within it. So, we've got Chief McNamera who has this we've got Chief McNamera who has this we've got Chief McNamera who has this investigation exposing her officers for investigation exposing her officers for investigation exposing her officers for their abhorrent behavior.

their abhorrent behavior. their abhorrent behavior. And then maybe because of her, maybe And then maybe because of her, maybe And then maybe because of her, maybe because of something else like another because of something else like another because of something else like another big case involving Canton PD and MSP big case involving Canton PD and MSP big case involving Canton PD and MSP that happens in 2022, that happens in 2022, that happens in 2022, >> John O'Keefe. >> John O'Keefe. >> John O'Keefe. >> Yeah. Maybe because of all the pressure >> Yeah. Maybe because of all the pressure >> Yeah. Maybe because of all the pressure and the spotlight combined, at some and the spotlight combined, at some and the spotlight combined, at some point other good people step in and say, point other good people step in and say, point other good people step in and say, "Nah-uh, not on our watch." And that's "Nah-uh, not on our watch." And that's "Nah-uh, not on our watch." And that's the FBI. Now, it's not really clear how the FBI. Now, it's not really clear how the FBI. Now, it's not really clear how the FBI investigation timeline unfolded. the FBI investigation timeline unfolded. the FBI investigation timeline unfolded. They haven't been very public about They haven't been very public about They haven't been very public about that. They aren't known to be very about that. They aren't known to be very about that. They aren't known to be very about anything. But on August 28th, 2024, anything. But on August 28th, 2024, anything. But on August 28th, 2024, special agent Chennai Castrida releases special agent Chennai Castrida releases special agent Chennai Castrida releases a 45page affidavit with all of her a 45page affidavit with all of her a 45page affidavit with all of her findings, and it details exactly what findings, and it details exactly what findings, and it details exactly what they think happened and why. Asian Castrita confirms what we already Asian Castrita confirms what we already know about Matthew grooming Sandra when know about Matthew grooming Sandra when know about Matthew grooming Sandra when she was a child and lays out Matthew's she was a child and lays out Matthew's she was a child and lays out Matthew's motive for murder in clear terms. She motive for murder in clear terms. She motive for murder in clear terms. She writes that in October of 2020 when writes that in October of 2020 when writes that in October of 2020 when Sandra heard about Matthew's wife's Sandra heard about Matthew's wife's Sandra heard about Matthew's wife's pregnancy, she went to him with an pregnancy, she went to him with an pregnancy, she went to him with an ultimatum. She wouldn't expose their ultimatum. She wouldn't expose their ultimatum. She wouldn't expose their yearslong sexual relationship, including yearslong sexual relationship, including yearslong sexual relationship, including the fact that it began when she was the fact that it began when she was the fact that it began when she was underage and that they'd been meeting underage and that they'd been meeting underage and that they'd been meeting while Matthew was on duty if he agreed while Matthew was on duty if he agreed while Matthew was on duty if he agreed to try and get her pregnant. Their text to try and get her pregnant. Their text to try and get her pregnant. Their text even shows Sandra sending Matthew her even shows Sandra sending Matthew her even shows Sandra sending Matthew her ovulation schedule and the two of them ovulation schedule and the two of them ovulation schedule and the two of them planning sexual encounters around it.

planning sexual encounters around it. planning sexual encounters around it. But when Sandra got pregnant, she But when Sandra got pregnant, she But when Sandra got pregnant, she started telling people about it and that started telling people about it and that started telling people about it and that wasn't part of the deal. The affidavit wasn't part of the deal. The affidavit wasn't part of the deal. The affidavit actually puts forward that on January actually puts forward that on January actually puts forward that on January 20th when that friend Jill called Stoen 20th when that friend Jill called Stoen 20th when that friend Jill called Stoen PD and spilled the beans about Matthew PD and spilled the beans about Matthew PD and spilled the beans about Matthew and Sandra, causing that officer to and Sandra, causing that officer to and Sandra, causing that officer to question Matthew, that is the very question Matthew, that is the very question Matthew, that is the very moment that Matthew hatched a plan to moment that Matthew hatched a plan to moment that Matthew hatched a plan to kill her. And all those heartto-hearts kill her. And all those heartto-hearts kill her. And all those heartto-hearts after that, Agent Castrida says were after that, Agent Castrida says were after that, Agent Castrida says were quote his attempt to appease Birmore quote his attempt to appease Birmore quote his attempt to appease Birmore until he could kill her. End quote. And until he could kill her. End quote. And until he could kill her. End quote. And they have physical proof. They say the they have physical proof. They say the they have physical proof. They say the FBI analyzed the data from the health FBI analyzed the data from the health FBI analyzed the data from the health app on Sandra's iPhone. Her last app on Sandra's iPhone. Her last app on Sandra's iPhone. Her last movements were recorded at 9:40 p.m. movements were recorded at 9:40 p.m. movements were recorded at 9:40 p.m. That is 3 minutes before Matthew was That is 3 minutes before Matthew was That is 3 minutes before Matthew was seen leaving her building. So, it's seen leaving her building. So, it's seen leaving her building. So, it's likely this data shows exactly when likely this data shows exactly when likely this data shows exactly when Sandra died and Matthew was still inside Sandra died and Matthew was still inside Sandra died and Matthew was still inside the apartment. And when he left, he the apartment. And when he left, he the apartment. And when he left, he could have used the key that he had to could have used the key that he had to could have used the key that he had to lock up behind him, lock up behind him, lock up behind him, >> right? And agent Castrida backs this up >> right? And agent Castrida backs this up >> right? And agent Castrida backs this up by tapping expert forensic physician Dr.

by tapping expert forensic physician Dr. by tapping expert forensic physician Dr. William Smok. He specializes in William Smok. He specializes in William Smok. He specializes in asphixxiation cases and testified in the asphixxiation cases and testified in the asphixxiation cases and testified in the Derek Schovin trial about George Floyd's Derek Schovin trial about George Floyd's Derek Schovin trial about George Floyd's murder. According to the affidavit, murder. According to the affidavit, murder. According to the affidavit, Smok's findings directly contradict what Smok's findings directly contradict what Smok's findings directly contradict what state police concluded. He pointed out state police concluded. He pointed out state police concluded. He pointed out that the fracture in Sandra's hyoid that the fracture in Sandra's hyoid that the fracture in Sandra's hyoid bone, which is at the top of the neck, bone, which is at the top of the neck, bone, which is at the top of the neck, didn't line up with the position that didn't line up with the position that didn't line up with the position that she was found in. Smok explained that she was found in. Smok explained that she was found in. Smok explained that when someone is found seated, it is when someone is found seated, it is when someone is found seated, it is considered an incomplete hanging, considered an incomplete hanging, considered an incomplete hanging, meaning that only part of the body's meaning that only part of the body's meaning that only part of the body's weight is actually pulling on the neck. weight is actually pulling on the neck. weight is actually pulling on the neck. And in his deep dive through forensic And in his deep dive through forensic And in his deep dive through forensic research, he could not find a single research, he could not find a single research, he could not find a single documented case of a woman fracturing documented case of a woman fracturing documented case of a woman fracturing her hyoid bone in that kind of scenario. her hyoid bone in that kind of scenario. her hyoid bone in that kind of scenario. >> Instead, those fractures overwhelmingly >> Instead, those fractures overwhelmingly >> Instead, those fractures overwhelmingly show up in cases of manual strangulation show up in cases of manual strangulation show up in cases of manual strangulation or when the full weight of the body is or when the full weight of the body is or when the full weight of the body is suspended. So, he concludes with quote a suspended. So, he concludes with quote a suspended. So, he concludes with quote a reasonable degree of medical and reasonable degree of medical and reasonable degree of medical and scientific certainty that the cause of scientific certainty that the cause of scientific certainty that the cause of Miss Burmore's death is asphixxia and Miss Burmore's death is asphixxia and Miss Burmore's death is asphixxia and that the manner of her death is that the manner of her death is that the manner of her death is homicide. End quote. And something else homicide. End quote. And something else homicide. End quote. And something else really interesting that Agent Castrida really interesting that Agent Castrida really interesting that Agent Castrida writes is that after Matthew consented writes is that after Matthew consented writes is that after Matthew consented to handing his personal cell phone over to handing his personal cell phone over to handing his personal cell phone over to state police, he used his work phone to state police, he used his work phone to state police, he used his work phone to search and then immediately delete to search and then immediately delete to search and then immediately delete searches for.

searches for. searches for. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Whether deleted iMes can be recovered >> Whether deleted iMes can be recovered >> Whether deleted iMes can be recovered and whether someone can revoke consent and whether someone can revoke consent and whether someone can revoke consent in Massachusetts. And it's on the last in Massachusetts. And it's on the last in Massachusetts. And it's on the last page of this document that Agent page of this document that Agent page of this document that Agent Castrida writes this quote. The Castrida writes this quote. The Castrida writes this quote. The information set forth above supports the information set forth above supports the information set forth above supports the government's motion to detain Matthew government's motion to detain Matthew government's motion to detain Matthew Farwell pending trial in this case. And Farwell pending trial in this case. And Farwell pending trial in this case. And that is how on the very date Agent that is how on the very date Agent that is how on the very date Agent Castrita files her report, Matthew Castrita files her report, Matthew Castrita files her report, Matthew Farwell is arrested. So how did the FBI Farwell is arrested. So how did the FBI Farwell is arrested. So how did the FBI get jurisdiction of the case in order to get jurisdiction of the case in order to get jurisdiction of the case in order to make the arrest? Like, do they just like make the arrest? Like, do they just like make the arrest? Like, do they just like trump state agencies by default? trump state agencies by default? trump state agencies by default? >> No. The FBI makes an ingenious move to >> No. The FBI makes an ingenious move to >> No. The FBI makes an ingenious move to charge Matthew with one count of killing charge Matthew with one count of killing charge Matthew with one count of killing a witness or victim, which is a federal a witness or victim, which is a federal a witness or victim, which is a federal crime charge that often appears in crime charge that often appears in crime charge that often appears in connection with other federal charges, connection with other federal charges, connection with other federal charges, like sometimes in mob cases or crime like sometimes in mob cases or crime like sometimes in mob cases or crime rings that span like multiple states. rings that span like multiple states. rings that span like multiple states. >> But in this case, it allowed the FBI to >> But in this case, it allowed the FBI to >> But in this case, it allowed the FBI to step in without involving MSP.

step in without involving MSP. step in without involving MSP. >> Exactly. And this charge also happens to >> Exactly. And this charge also happens to >> Exactly. And this charge also happens to be punishable by death. So that same be punishable by death. So that same be punishable by death. So that same day, Matthew pleads not guilty at an day, Matthew pleads not guilty at an day, Matthew pleads not guilty at an arraignment. And as of this recording, arraignment. And as of this recording, arraignment. And as of this recording, Matthew has been indicted by a federal Matthew has been indicted by a federal Matthew has been indicted by a federal grand jury and his trial is currently grand jury and his trial is currently grand jury and his trial is currently scheduled to begin on October 5th, 2026. scheduled to begin on October 5th, 2026. scheduled to begin on October 5th, 2026. Until then, he's being held without bail Until then, he's being held without bail Until then, he's being held without bail at a detention facility in Rhode Island. at a detention facility in Rhode Island. at a detention facility in Rhode Island. And our reporter, Nicole Kagan, actually And our reporter, Nicole Kagan, actually And our reporter, Nicole Kagan, actually reached out to his attorney for comment, reached out to his attorney for comment, reached out to his attorney for comment, but as of this recording, we have not but as of this recording, we have not but as of this recording, we have not heard anything back. There is news still heard anything back. There is news still heard anything back. There is news still breaking in this case though. The breaking in this case though. The breaking in this case though. The strangest thing to me was broken by the strangest thing to me was broken by the strangest thing to me was broken by the Boston Globe earlier this year. They Boston Globe earlier this year. They Boston Globe earlier this year. They wrote that people familiar with the wrote that people familiar with the wrote that people familiar with the investigation who spoke on the condition investigation who spoke on the condition investigation who spoke on the condition of anonymity said that DNA testing of anonymity said that DNA testing of anonymity said that DNA testing showed Matthew was not the biological showed Matthew was not the biological showed Matthew was not the biological father of Sandra's unborn baby. Okay, father of Sandra's unborn baby. Okay, father of Sandra's unborn baby. Okay, first of all, who are these sources? I first of all, who are these sources? I first of all, who are these sources? I like need to know. like need to know. like need to know. >> Same. But I have no idea. And secondly, >> Same. But I have no idea. And secondly, >> Same. But I have no idea. And secondly, the motive still makes sense for me the motive still makes sense for me the motive still makes sense for me though cuz if Mat Du thought he was the though cuz if Mat Du thought he was the though cuz if Mat Du thought he was the father, which it really seems like he father, which it really seems like he father, which it really seems like he did from the text messages. Like that's did from the text messages. Like that's did from the text messages. Like that's >> your motive. And also he refused to give >> your motive. And also he refused to give >> your motive. And also he refused to give his DNA at first, right? Well, also he his DNA at first, right? Well, also he his DNA at first, right? Well, also he had a twin brother who admitted to had a twin brother who admitted to had a twin brother who admitted to sleeping with Sandra at the same time.

sleeping with Sandra at the same time. sleeping with Sandra at the same time. And like my own PSA, I no longer trust And like my own PSA, I no longer trust And like my own PSA, I no longer trust adult twins who work at the same place adult twins who work at the same place adult twins who work at the same place if that place gives them access to if that place gives them access to if that place gives them access to children. I know that sounds specific, children. I know that sounds specific, children. I know that sounds specific, but I just listened to the newest season but I just listened to the newest season but I just listened to the newest season of Dig and like, of Dig and like, of Dig and like, >> "Oh, hell no. There is a pattern here." >> "Oh, hell no. There is a pattern here." >> "Oh, hell no. There is a pattern here." But there is also another pattern that I But there is also another pattern that I But there is also another pattern that I found. One with the Explorers program. found. One with the Explorers program. found. One with the Explorers program. >> Sandra's story is one that did get a >> Sandra's story is one that did get a >> Sandra's story is one that did get a decent amount of attention and had been decent amount of attention and had been decent amount of attention and had been kind of like living in the back of my kind of like living in the back of my kind of like living in the back of my brain since 2022, like is when I first brain since 2022, like is when I first brain since 2022, like is when I first heard about it. And in digging into heard about it. And in digging into heard about it. And in digging into that, this local article from here in that, this local article from here in that, this local article from here in Indianapolis popped up and grabbed my Indianapolis popped up and grabbed my Indianapolis popped up and grabbed my attention. It was from April 14th, 2022. attention. It was from April 14th, 2022. attention. It was from April 14th, 2022. It said, "I am PD officer tied to teen It said, "I am PD officer tied to teen It said, "I am PD officer tied to teen suicide ordered to write weekly journal suicide ordered to write weekly journal suicide ordered to write weekly journal in rare sentence." in rare sentence." in rare sentence." >> And that's kind of like crime junkie >> And that's kind of like crime junkie >> And that's kind of like crime junkie clickbait. And when I began reading, I clickbait. And when I began reading, I clickbait. And when I began reading, I had this weird deja vu. Deleted text had this weird deja vu. Deleted text had this weird deja vu. Deleted text messages, the police explorers program. messages, the police explorers program. messages, the police explorers program. So, I began to wonder, maybe William and So, I began to wonder, maybe William and So, I began to wonder, maybe William and Matthew and Robert weren't a couple of Matthew and Robert weren't a couple of Matthew and Robert weren't a couple of bad apples in the system. What if the bad apples in the system. What if the bad apples in the system. What if the program is designed in a way that program is designed in a way that program is designed in a way that actually attracts predators and puts actually attracts predators and puts actually attracts predators and puts children at risk? Like, parents are children at risk? Like, parents are children at risk? Like, parents are sending their kids off to work with the sending their kids off to work with the sending their kids off to work with the police because like you couldn't be police because like you couldn't be police because like you couldn't be safer, right? Wrong. The more I looked, safer, right? Wrong. The more I looked, safer, right? Wrong. The more I looked, the more I found. and our reporter Nina the more I found. and our reporter Nina the more I found. and our reporter Nina and I have spent months, the better part and I have spent months, the better part and I have spent months, the better part of a year, uncovering systematic issues

of a year, uncovering systematic issues of a year, uncovering systematic issues with the Explorers program. And next with the Explorers program. And next with the Explorers program. And next week, we are going to be releasing an week, we are going to be releasing an week, we are going to be releasing an entire episode with every twisted detail entire episode with every twisted detail entire episode with every twisted detail we found. So, for those of you who don't we found. So, for those of you who don't we found. So, for those of you who don't want to wait, you can actually listen to want to wait, you can actually listen to want to wait, you can actually listen to that episode right now in our Fan Club that episode right now in our Fan Club that episode right now in our Fan Club app. I think everyone needs to know app. I think everyone needs to know app. I think everyone needs to know about it, but it is truly required about it, but it is truly required about it, but it is truly required listening for anyone considering the listening for anyone considering the listening for anyone considering the program or for any parent who has a kid program or for any parent who has a kid program or for any parent who has a kid in it. Like this is something that we in it. Like this is something that we in it. Like this is something that we can't just look away from and like hope can't just look away from and like hope can't just look away from and like hope stuff that like stops happening. We have stuff that like stops happening. We have stuff that like stops happening. We have to shine a light directly on it. So tell to shine a light directly on it. So tell to shine a light directly on it. So tell everyone, you know, next week's episode everyone, you know, next week's episode everyone, you know, next week's episode of Crime Junkie is required listening of Crime Junkie is required listening of Crime Junkie is required listening for everyone so you know what is there for everyone so you know what is there for everyone so you know what is there and how you can keep your kids and your and how you can keep your kids and your and how you can keep your kids and your friends safe. You can find all of our friends safe. You can find all of our friends safe. You can find all of our source material for this episode on our source material for this episode on our source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkkey.com. website, crimejunkkey.com. website, crimejunkkey.com. And don't forget, if you want to listen And don't forget, if you want to listen And don't forget, if you want to listen to more episodes like this, all of our to more episodes like this, all of our to more episodes like this, all of our episodes completely adfree, and next episodes completely adfree, and next episodes completely adfree, and next week's episode early, be sure to join week's episode early, be sure to join week's episode early, be sure to join our fan club. You'll get early access to our fan club. You'll get early access to our fan club. You'll get early access to new episodes every week and bonus new episodes every week and bonus new episodes every week and bonus content every month. And you can follow content every month. And you can follow content every month. And you can follow us on Instagram, Crime Junkie Podcast.

us on Instagram, Crime Junkie Podcast. us on Instagram, Crime Junkie Podcast. >> We'll be back next week with a brand new >> We'll be back next week with a brand new >> We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. There's something intuitive in us that There's something intuitive in us that if we trust can tell us when we're in if we trust can tell us when we're in if we trust can tell us when we're in trouble. It's not always an alarm. trouble. It's not always an alarm. trouble. It's not always an alarm. Sometimes it's a quiet feeling warning Sometimes it's a quiet feeling warning Sometimes it's a quiet feeling warning you of someone's presence, telling you you of someone's presence, telling you you of someone's presence, telling you that you're not alone. That is the very that you're not alone. That is the very that you're not alone. That is the very feeling that woke up 19-year-old Rachel feeling that woke up 19-year-old Rachel feeling that woke up 19-year-old Rachel Hansen from sleep one June night in Hansen from sleep one June night in Hansen from sleep one June night in 2022. The adrenaline coursing through 2022. The adrenaline coursing through 2022. The adrenaline coursing through her spiked when she opened her eyes to her spiked when she opened her eyes to her spiked when she opened her eyes to find someone standing over her bed find someone standing over her bed find someone standing over her bed staring at her. Rachel let out a scream staring at her. Rachel let out a scream staring at her. Rachel let out a scream and that sent the person running out of and that sent the person running out of and that sent the person running out of her room and then out of the apartment her room and then out of the apartment her room and then out of the apartment completely without ever uttering a word. completely without ever uttering a word. completely without ever uttering a word. And that should have been the worst And that should have been the worst And that should have been the worst thing that happened to Rachel in that thing that happened to Rachel in that thing that happened to Rachel in that Gilbert, Arizona apartment. But it Gilbert, Arizona apartment. But it Gilbert, Arizona apartment. But it wasn't because the very next night when wasn't because the very next night when wasn't because the very next night when Rachel was asleep in bed just after 2:00 Rachel was asleep in bed just after 2:00 Rachel was asleep in bed just after 2:00 a.m. a dark figure entered her bedroom a.m. a dark figure entered her bedroom a.m. a dark figure entered her bedroom again, held up a gun and shot her in the again, held up a gun and shot her in the again, held up a gun and shot her in the abdomen before fleeing. Was the first abdomen before fleeing. Was the first abdomen before fleeing. Was the first break-in unrelated? Or was it a warning, break-in unrelated? Or was it a warning, break-in unrelated? Or was it a warning, a bad omen of what was to come? To this a bad omen of what was to come? To this a bad omen of what was to come? To this day, no suspects have been named. And if day, no suspects have been named. And if day, no suspects have been named. And if you read the heavily redacted 338 page you read the heavily redacted 338 page you read the heavily redacted 338 page police file that Gilbert Police police file that Gilbert Police police file that Gilbert Police Department released in 2024, you'll Department released in 2024, you'll Department released in 2024, you'll learn a whole lot of nothing. But to learn a whole lot of nothing. But to learn a whole lot of nothing. But to leave it at that is not exactly the

leave it at that is not exactly the leave it at that is not exactly the crime junkie nature. So our team did crime junkie nature. So our team did crime junkie nature. So our team did some investigating. Join us as we some investigating. Join us as we some investigating. Join us as we unravel the mystery of who killed Rachel unravel the mystery of who killed Rachel unravel the mystery of who killed Rachel Hansen. When the person who shot Rachel Hansen When the person who shot Rachel Hansen fled her apartment around 2:00 a.m. on fled her apartment around 2:00 a.m. on fled her apartment around 2:00 a.m. on June 4th, 2022, she was still alive. June 4th, 2022, she was still alive. June 4th, 2022, she was still alive. Rachel was bleeding from her abdomen and Rachel was bleeding from her abdomen and Rachel was bleeding from her abdomen and her upper back where the bullet had her upper back where the bullet had her upper back where the bullet had entered and exited, but she could still entered and exited, but she could still entered and exited, but she could still move, so she grabbed her phone and move, so she grabbed her phone and move, so she grabbed her phone and rushed to the apartment bathroom where rushed to the apartment bathroom where rushed to the apartment bathroom where she called 911. Rachel knows that she's she called 911. Rachel knows that she's she called 911. Rachel knows that she's in bad condition, so she wastes no time in bad condition, so she wastes no time in bad condition, so she wastes no time when the call connects. "I've been when the call connects. "I've been when the call connects. "I've been shot," she tells them. "Someone broke in shot," she tells them. "Someone broke in shot," she tells them. "Someone broke in and shot me." In about 5 minutes, first and shot me." In about 5 minutes, first and shot me." In about 5 minutes, first responders are there at the scene, and responders are there at the scene, and responders are there at the scene, and they start working on her there before they start working on her there before they start working on her there before rushing her to the hospital. But the rushing her to the hospital. But the rushing her to the hospital. But the bullet that went through her just did bullet that went through her just did bullet that went through her just did too much damage. And after 3 hours in too much damage. And after 3 hours in too much damage. And after 3 hours in surgery, doctors couldn't save her. But surgery, doctors couldn't save her. But surgery, doctors couldn't save her. But here's the tragedy on top of the here's the tragedy on top of the here's the tragedy on top of the tragedy. When Rachel went to the tragedy. When Rachel went to the tragedy. When Rachel went to the hospital and while she was in surgery, hospital and while she was in surgery, hospital and while she was in surgery, her family had no idea. Our reporter her family had no idea. Our reporter her family had no idea. Our reporter Nicole Kagan spoke to Rachel's mom, Kim Nicole Kagan spoke to Rachel's mom, Kim Nicole Kagan spoke to Rachel's mom, Kim Hansen, and she said that no one came to Hansen, and she said that no one came to Hansen, and she said that no one came to notify the family until 700 a.m. after notify the family until 700 a.m. after notify the family until 700 a.m. after Rachel had died. No one called them when Rachel had died. No one called them when Rachel had died. No one called them when Rachel was found or when she was in Rachel was found or when she was in Rachel was found or when she was in surgery at the hospital, which still surgery at the hospital, which still surgery at the hospital, which still bothers Kim to this day, knowing that bothers Kim to this day, knowing that bothers Kim to this day, knowing that her daughter was there all alone. But her daughter was there all alone. But her daughter was there all alone. But that is far from the only thing that that is far from the only thing that that is far from the only thing that bothers her. There would be plenty more

bothers her. There would be plenty more bothers her. There would be plenty more heartbreak and disappointment coming. heartbreak and disappointment coming. heartbreak and disappointment coming. She just didn't know it yet. Because She just didn't know it yet. Because She just didn't know it yet. Because like so many people who never have to like so many people who never have to like so many people who never have to live the true crime story, when this all live the true crime story, when this all live the true crime story, when this all unfolded, Kim was under the impression unfolded, Kim was under the impression unfolded, Kim was under the impression that the criminal justice system worked, that the criminal justice system worked, that the criminal justice system worked, that all detectives knew how to do their that all detectives knew how to do their that all detectives knew how to do their jobs, and that they did them well. Well, jobs, and that they did them well. Well, jobs, and that they did them well. Well, that bubble would burst in a hard way, that bubble would burst in a hard way, that bubble would burst in a hard way, which brings me back to the crime scene. which brings me back to the crime scene. which brings me back to the crime scene. Now, as far as scenes go, Rachel's was Now, as far as scenes go, Rachel's was Now, as far as scenes go, Rachel's was simple to process. According to the simple to process. According to the simple to process. According to the police file, aside from the blood on her police file, aside from the blood on her police file, aside from the blood on her mattress and in her bathroom and the mattress and in her bathroom and the mattress and in her bathroom and the bullet and shell casing, nothing seemed bullet and shell casing, nothing seemed bullet and shell casing, nothing seemed out of place. In fact, there was barely out of place. In fact, there was barely out of place. In fact, there was barely any furniture at all in sight, just her any furniture at all in sight, just her any furniture at all in sight, just her box spring and mattress. I mean, the box spring and mattress. I mean, the box spring and mattress. I mean, the only thing really notable about the only thing really notable about the only thing really notable about the state of the apartment that I can tell state of the apartment that I can tell state of the apartment that I can tell from the police file is the smell from the police file is the smell from the police file is the smell because apparently it like reeks of because apparently it like reeks of because apparently it like reeks of marijuana. And as officers began marijuana. And as officers began marijuana. And as officers began canvasing neighbors, they learned that canvasing neighbors, they learned that canvasing neighbors, they learned that this smell had been there for like the this smell had been there for like the this smell had been there for like the last 6 months. And over that time, there last 6 months. And over that time, there last 6 months. And over that time, there were random people coming and going from were random people coming and going from were random people coming and going from the unit and loud arguments. And those the unit and loud arguments. And those the unit and loud arguments. And those who lived around unit 3133 assumed that who lived around unit 3133 assumed that who lived around unit 3133 assumed that drugs were being sold out of there and drugs were being sold out of there and drugs were being sold out of there and that the young woman who lived there that the young woman who lived there that the young woman who lived there clearly had a bad relationship with her clearly had a bad relationship with her clearly had a bad relationship with her boyfriend, which they would have gotten boyfriend, which they would have gotten boyfriend, which they would have gotten a front row to because when Nicole went a front row to because when Nicole went a front row to because when Nicole went to this apartment complex, not only are to this apartment complex, not only are to this apartment complex, not only are the units pretty close together, but the units pretty close together, but the units pretty close together, but like just walking the hallway, she could like just walking the hallway, she could like just walking the hallway, she could clearly hear people talking and watching clearly hear people talking and watching clearly hear people talking and watching TV inside their apartments.

TV inside their apartments. TV inside their apartments. >> Paper thin walls. >> Paper thin walls. >> Paper thin walls. >> Yeah. But here's what's so strange. On >> Yeah. But here's what's so strange. On >> Yeah. But here's what's so strange. On the night Rachel died, they heard the night Rachel died, they heard the night Rachel died, they heard nothing. nothing. nothing. >> How? I mean, even if you were sleeping, >> How? I mean, even if you were sleeping, >> How? I mean, even if you were sleeping, >> I mean, I feel like you would hear a >> I mean, I feel like you would hear a >> I mean, I feel like you would hear a gunshot. Like, that would totally wake gunshot. Like, that would totally wake gunshot. Like, that would totally wake you up, which you up, which you up, which >> Yeah. I mean, could they have used a >> Yeah. I mean, could they have used a >> Yeah. I mean, could they have used a silencer on the gun? silencer on the gun? silencer on the gun? >> So, that was my first thought, right? >> So, that was my first thought, right? >> So, that was my first thought, right? But I don't know if this killer was But I don't know if this killer was But I don't know if this killer was being mindful of noise because while being mindful of noise because while being mindful of noise because while there were no signs of forced entry to there were no signs of forced entry to there were no signs of forced entry to Rachel's front door, we actually know Rachel's front door, we actually know Rachel's front door, we actually know from pictures of the apartment that Kim from pictures of the apartment that Kim from pictures of the apartment that Kim took after it was cleared by police that took after it was cleared by police that took after it was cleared by police that someone kicked the crap out of Rachel's someone kicked the crap out of Rachel's someone kicked the crap out of Rachel's bedroom door. And this is one of those bedroom door. And this is one of those bedroom door. And this is one of those details that just like doesn't compute details that just like doesn't compute details that just like doesn't compute for me. Like even if Rachel's bedroom for me. Like even if Rachel's bedroom for me. Like even if Rachel's bedroom door was locked, you can see from the door was locked, you can see from the door was locked, you can see from the picture, I don't know if like you had picture, I don't know if like you had picture, I don't know if like you had those where it's like you can like use a those where it's like you can like use a those where it's like you can like use a nail to like turn it. So why go through nail to like turn it. So why go through nail to like turn it. So why go through the trouble of like kicking it in and the trouble of like kicking it in and the trouble of like kicking it in and making all that noise. And what's even making all that noise. And what's even making all that noise. And what's even weirder still is that even with the door weirder still is that even with the door weirder still is that even with the door kicked in, apparently the neighbors kicked in, apparently the neighbors kicked in, apparently the neighbors still heard nothing. Like I personally still heard nothing. Like I personally still heard nothing. Like I personally spoke to the neighbor who lived right spoke to the neighbor who lived right spoke to the neighbor who lived right across from Rachel and they said that across from Rachel and they said that across from Rachel and they said that they weren't even sleeping when this they weren't even sleeping when this they weren't even sleeping when this happened. They had just gotten back from happened. They had just gotten back from happened. They had just gotten back from bowling at like 1:30 or 2:00 in the bowling at like 1:30 or 2:00 in the bowling at like 1:30 or 2:00 in the morning. They're like fully awake when morning. They're like fully awake when morning. They're like fully awake when the shot would have been fired, which the shot would have been fired, which the shot would have been fired, which means they would have been awake when means they would have been awake when means they would have been awake when the door was kicked in if it happened the door was kicked in if it happened the door was kicked in if it happened then, too. And they were awake when then, too. And they were awake when then, too. And they were awake when Rachel would have called 911 and awake Rachel would have called 911 and awake Rachel would have called 911 and awake when police were showing up to the when police were showing up to the when police were showing up to the apartment and like talking to the people apartment and like talking to the people apartment and like talking to the people who are now across the hall. How did who are now across the hall. How did who are now across the hall. How did they hear nothing? Not just like the they hear nothing? Not just like the they hear nothing? Not just like the stuff I mentioned, but like no hurried stuff I mentioned, but like no hurried stuff I mentioned, but like no hurried footsteps, no no running away, nothing.

footsteps, no no running away, nothing. footsteps, no no running away, nothing. >> No argument. Yeah, they didn't see >> No argument. Yeah, they didn't see >> No argument. Yeah, they didn't see anything either. and a shady person anything either. and a shady person anything either. and a shady person lingering I think would have stood out lingering I think would have stood out lingering I think would have stood out because despite whatever was going on because despite whatever was going on because despite whatever was going on for six months in unit 3133 this was a for six months in unit 3133 this was a for six months in unit 3133 this was a nice and safe area like a gated nice and safe area like a gated nice and safe area like a gated community in fact community in fact community in fact >> does it have any cameras then >> does it have any cameras then >> does it have any cameras then >> oh it does but kind of like the >> oh it does but kind of like the >> oh it does but kind of like the gatedness of this community it feels gatedness of this community it feels gatedness of this community it feels like it was a little all for show the like it was a little all for show the like it was a little all for show the leasing office told investigators that leasing office told investigators that leasing office told investigators that there were no operational cameras there were no operational cameras there were no operational cameras anywhere in the complex and when Nicole anywhere in the complex and when Nicole anywhere in the complex and when Nicole went to the complex now mind you this is went to the complex now mind you this is went to the complex now mind you this is like 3 plus years post homicide. But like 3 plus years post homicide. But like 3 plus years post homicide. But every time she went down to check the every time she went down to check the every time she went down to check the gate, it's just like wide open. Cool. gate, it's just like wide open. Cool. gate, it's just like wide open. Cool. But building security aside, one of But building security aside, one of But building security aside, one of Rachel's neighbors did have a working Rachel's neighbors did have a working Rachel's neighbors did have a working Ring camera. And this is the first Ring camera. And this is the first Ring camera. And this is the first frustrating roadblock in the highly frustrating roadblock in the highly frustrating roadblock in the highly redacted records that we got. Nearly all redacted records that we got. Nearly all redacted records that we got. Nearly all of what they learned from the Ring of what they learned from the Ring of what they learned from the Ring camera footage is redacted. Some of the camera footage is redacted. Some of the camera footage is redacted. Some of the only information that is not says that a only information that is not says that a only information that is not says that a camera caught Rachel on June 3rd, like 5 camera caught Rachel on June 3rd, like 5 camera caught Rachel on June 3rd, like 5 hours before the shooting, so it have hours before the shooting, so it have hours before the shooting, so it have been like 9:15 p.m. And she was with a been like 9:15 p.m. And she was with a been like 9:15 p.m. And she was with a long-haired man walking to the east on long-haired man walking to the east on long-haired man walking to the east on the first floor hall. Now, she lived on the first floor hall. Now, she lived on the first floor hall. Now, she lived on the third floor, so this might have been the third floor, so this might have been the third floor, so this might have been when she like first gets there. Then a when she like first gets there. Then a when she like first gets there. Then a different investigator wrote in another different investigator wrote in another different investigator wrote in another report that at 9:33, quote, "The two are report that at 9:33, quote, "The two are report that at 9:33, quote, "The two are seen walking away from her apartment, seen walking away from her apartment, seen walking away from her apartment, and that Rachel is dressed in what looks and that Rachel is dressed in what looks and that Rachel is dressed in what looks like a swimsuit. when they come back, like a swimsuit. when they come back, like a swimsuit. when they come back, what other cameras they might have been what other cameras they might have been what other cameras they might have been seen on, I don't know. All redacted. But seen on, I don't know. All redacted. But seen on, I don't know. All redacted. But listen, we don't need to spiral and

listen, we don't need to spiral and listen, we don't need to spiral and speculate too much, at least about who speculate too much, at least about who speculate too much, at least about who this long-haired man was. Because once this long-haired man was. Because once this long-haired man was. Because once police finally do notify Rachel's family police finally do notify Rachel's family police finally do notify Rachel's family of her death, again, 5 hours after she of her death, again, 5 hours after she of her death, again, 5 hours after she was shot, they figure that out pretty was shot, they figure that out pretty was shot, they figure that out pretty quickly. When police knock on Rachel's quickly. When police knock on Rachel's quickly. When police knock on Rachel's parents' door, her dad, Todd, answers, parents' door, her dad, Todd, answers, parents' door, her dad, Todd, answers, her mom, Kim, was actually in Indiana her mom, Kim, was actually in Indiana her mom, Kim, was actually in Indiana visiting grandchildren. But officers visiting grandchildren. But officers visiting grandchildren. But officers figure out that the guy with long hair, figure out that the guy with long hair, figure out that the guy with long hair, that is probably Rachel's fianceé, Joet that is probably Rachel's fianceé, Joet that is probably Rachel's fianceé, Joet Bailey. And they learn something else Bailey. And they learn something else Bailey. And they learn something else critical. Rachel had just moved back critical. Rachel had just moved back critical. Rachel had just moved back into that apartment. June 2nd was her into that apartment. June 2nd was her into that apartment. June 2nd was her very first night staying there. So, very first night staying there. So, very first night staying there. So, she's not who everyone thought was she's not who everyone thought was she's not who everyone thought was selling drugs and fighting with her selling drugs and fighting with her selling drugs and fighting with her boyfriend. She hasn't been there. boyfriend. She hasn't been there. boyfriend. She hasn't been there. >> No. No. And that's also why the >> No. No. And that's also why the >> No. No. And that's also why the apartment was empty. Her dad tells apartment was empty. Her dad tells apartment was empty. Her dad tells police that the apartment, it was in police that the apartment, it was in police that the apartment, it was in Rachel's name, but she had been doing Rachel's name, but she had been doing Rachel's name, but she had been doing like an offthebook subleting thing for like an offthebook subleting thing for like an offthebook subleting thing for like the last 6 months. like the last 6 months. like the last 6 months. >> And who is this subletter? >> And who is this subletter? >> And who is this subletter? >> In that moment, dad's not sure. I mean, >> In that moment, dad's not sure. I mean, >> In that moment, dad's not sure. I mean, it wasn't someone she was super close it wasn't someone she was super close it wasn't someone she was super close with. So, it like takes a minute to with. So, it like takes a minute to with. So, it like takes a minute to track that down, which honestly is like track that down, which honestly is like track that down, which honestly is like fine because first things first, fine because first things first, fine because first things first, detectives want to talk to her fiance, detectives want to talk to her fiance, detectives want to talk to her fiance, Joe Met. Now, the police report says Joe Met. Now, the police report says Joe Met. Now, the police report says that they bring Joe Met in the next day, that they bring Joe Met in the next day, that they bring Joe Met in the next day, which would have been Sunday, June 5th.

which would have been Sunday, June 5th. which would have been Sunday, June 5th. But Rachel's mom told us that that's But Rachel's mom told us that that's But Rachel's mom told us that that's wrong, that they brought Joe right in wrong, that they brought Joe right in wrong, that they brought Joe right in after they talked to Todd. So, this after they talked to Todd. So, this after they talked to Todd. So, this would have been like 8:00 a.m. on the would have been like 8:00 a.m. on the would have been like 8:00 a.m. on the 4th. And she's certain of it. We tried 4th. And she's certain of it. We tried 4th. And she's certain of it. We tried to ask police to verify this, but a to ask police to verify this, but a to ask police to verify this, but a spokesperson for the department said spokesperson for the department said spokesperson for the department said that they could not provide clarifying that they could not provide clarifying that they could not provide clarifying information citing an active information citing an active information citing an active investigation, and JT didn't respond to investigation, and JT didn't respond to investigation, and JT didn't respond to a request for comment. But either way, a request for comment. But either way, a request for comment. But either way, in this interview, which lasts about 4 in this interview, which lasts about 4 in this interview, which lasts about 4 hours, Jomett is super distraught, but hours, Jomett is super distraught, but hours, Jomett is super distraught, but he readily admits to being with Rachel he readily admits to being with Rachel he readily admits to being with Rachel that night. He says that he stayed with that night. He says that he stayed with that night. He says that he stayed with her at the apartment until around her at the apartment until around her at the apartment until around midnight when he went home. midnight when he went home. midnight when he went home. >> And of course, we can't corroborate that >> And of course, we can't corroborate that >> And of course, we can't corroborate that because we don't know what else was on because we don't know what else was on because we don't know what else was on the Ring cameras. the Ring cameras. the Ring cameras. >> Yeah, we can't. But I assume police did >> Yeah, we can't. But I assume police did >> Yeah, we can't. But I assume police did because they end up clearing him after because they end up clearing him after because they end up clearing him after what Kim described as like weeks of what Kim described as like weeks of what Kim described as like weeks of merciless interrogation. And Kim and merciless interrogation. And Kim and merciless interrogation. And Kim and Todd are on the same page as police. Todd are on the same page as police. Todd are on the same page as police. Like they're not suspicious of JT. Like they're not suspicious of JT. Like they're not suspicious of JT. >> Well, Kim told Nicole that they didn't >> Well, Kim told Nicole that they didn't >> Well, Kim told Nicole that they didn't have an ounce of doubt that JT was have an ounce of doubt that JT was have an ounce of doubt that JT was innocent. I mean, day one when like, you innocent. I mean, day one when like, you innocent. I mean, day one when like, you know, they were fresh in like the throws know, they were fresh in like the throws know, they were fresh in like the throws of things, Todd did sit him down and was of things, Todd did sit him down and was of things, Todd did sit him down and was basically like, "Look, look me in the basically like, "Look, look me in the basically like, "Look, look me in the eyes. Tell me the truth manto man. Did eyes. Tell me the truth manto man. Did eyes. Tell me the truth manto man. Did you kill my daughter?" And apparently you kill my daughter?" And apparently you kill my daughter?" And apparently Jette looks right at him and without Jette looks right at him and without Jette looks right at him and without even wavering says, "No, I would never even wavering says, "No, I would never even wavering says, "No, I would never do that." And they believe him. Kim and do that." And they believe him. Kim and do that." And they believe him. Kim and Todd had gotten to know Jette really Todd had gotten to know Jette really Todd had gotten to know Jette really well since he proposed to Rachel earlier well since he proposed to Rachel earlier well since he proposed to Rachel earlier that year. Like they just couldn't see that year. Like they just couldn't see that year. Like they just couldn't see him doing something like this. And Kim him doing something like this. And Kim him doing something like this. And Kim says that Jette was absolutely destroyed says that Jette was absolutely destroyed says that Jette was absolutely destroyed in the wake of Rachel's death. And for in the wake of Rachel's death. And for in the wake of Rachel's death. And for like 6 months afterwards, he couldn't

like 6 months afterwards, he couldn't like 6 months afterwards, he couldn't eat. He had this like tremendous guilt. eat. He had this like tremendous guilt. eat. He had this like tremendous guilt. He couldn't hold down a job. And he He couldn't hold down a job. And he He couldn't hold down a job. And he actually lived with the Hansens for a actually lived with the Hansens for a actually lived with the Hansens for a good portion of that time. good portion of that time. good portion of that time. >> Did he and Rachel live together? >> Did he and Rachel live together? >> Did he and Rachel live together? >> No, they didn't. But he did stay with >> No, they didn't. But he did stay with >> No, they didn't. But he did stay with her a lot. And actually between him and her a lot. And actually between him and her a lot. And actually between him and Kim, they're actually able to give Kim, they're actually able to give Kim, they're actually able to give police one of the most interesting leads police one of the most interesting leads police one of the most interesting leads in this whole case because they both in this whole case because they both in this whole case because they both knew about the intruder who'd come into knew about the intruder who'd come into knew about the intruder who'd come into Rachel's room and stood over her the Rachel's room and stood over her the Rachel's room and stood over her the night before she was killed. night before she was killed. night before she was killed. >> Wait, did police not know about that >> Wait, did police not know about that >> Wait, did police not know about that right away? right away? right away? >> Well, no, because after it happened, >> Well, no, because after it happened, >> Well, no, because after it happened, Rachel didn't call the police about it. Rachel didn't call the police about it. Rachel didn't call the police about it. >> What? Yeah. So, let me just tell you >> What? Yeah. So, let me just tell you >> What? Yeah. So, let me just tell you like the whole story that got pieced like the whole story that got pieced like the whole story that got pieced together because it is really strange. In the parks and forest you love, there In the parks and forest you love, there are stories waiting to be told. I'm are stories waiting to be told. I'm are stories waiting to be told. I'm Dillia Deira, the host of Park Dillia Deira, the host of Park Dillia Deira, the host of Park Predators, a true crime podcast that Predators, a true crime podcast that Predators, a true crime podcast that reminds you sometimes the most beautiful reminds you sometimes the most beautiful reminds you sometimes the most beautiful places hide the darkest secrets. Listen places hide the darkest secrets. Listen places hide the darkest secrets. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.

now, wherever you get your podcasts. now, wherever you get your podcasts. So, Thursday, June 1st is the first day So, Thursday, June 1st is the first day So, Thursday, June 1st is the first day that Rachel gets access back to her that Rachel gets access back to her that Rachel gets access back to her apartment in like the last 6 months. apartment in like the last 6 months. apartment in like the last 6 months. Now, she had no idea what had been going Now, she had no idea what had been going Now, she had no idea what had been going on there while she was gone. So, she was on there while she was gone. So, she was on there while she was gone. So, she was pretty shocked to find the place a mess. pretty shocked to find the place a mess. pretty shocked to find the place a mess. Like super dirty. And the smell of Like super dirty. And the smell of Like super dirty. And the smell of marijuana was so strong, like replace marijuana was so strong, like replace marijuana was so strong, like replace the carpet strong. So, she knew that the carpet strong. So, she knew that the carpet strong. So, she knew that before she began moving any of her stuff before she began moving any of her stuff before she began moving any of her stuff back in, she was going to need to do back in, she was going to need to do back in, she was going to need to do like a really deep clean of this place. like a really deep clean of this place. like a really deep clean of this place. So, that's what she spent Thursday So, that's what she spent Thursday So, that's what she spent Thursday doing. She literally had next to nothing doing. She literally had next to nothing doing. She literally had next to nothing in the place, just her box spring and in the place, just her box spring and in the place, just her box spring and her mattress. I mean, there wasn't even her mattress. I mean, there wasn't even her mattress. I mean, there wasn't even food in the kitchen. So that first night food in the kitchen. So that first night food in the kitchen. So that first night she ends up staying with JT. She comes she ends up staying with JT. She comes she ends up staying with JT. She comes back the next day, does like more back the next day, does like more back the next day, does like more cleaning and that second day is the cleaning and that second day is the cleaning and that second day is the first night she's like staying in her first night she's like staying in her first night she's like staying in her place and that was the opening of this place and that was the opening of this place and that was the opening of this story. She is just woken up by this story. She is just woken up by this story. She is just woken up by this feeling of someone there watching her in feeling of someone there watching her in feeling of someone there watching her in her room. But when she wakes up, the her room. But when she wakes up, the her room. But when she wakes up, the person runs and afterward Rachel didn't person runs and afterward Rachel didn't person runs and afterward Rachel didn't want to be alone. So she texts JT and want to be alone. So she texts JT and want to be alone. So she texts JT and asked him to come over. I asked him to come over. I asked him to come over. I >> I don't get why she didn't want to call >> I don't get why she didn't want to call >> I don't get why she didn't want to call the police the police the police >> because I don't think she actually >> because I don't think she actually >> because I don't think she actually believed that she was in danger. So her believed that she was in danger. So her believed that she was in danger. So her door had been locked. So for this person door had been locked. So for this person door had been locked. So for this person to get in, they had to have had a key.

to get in, they had to have had a key. to get in, they had to have had a key. And because they didn't actually do And because they didn't actually do And because they didn't actually do anything, she kind of figured that it anything, she kind of figured that it anything, she kind of figured that it was someone who was maybe connected to was someone who was maybe connected to was someone who was maybe connected to her subletter. Someone who had a key her subletter. Someone who had a key her subletter. Someone who had a key came in and then when they saw that she came in and then when they saw that she came in and then when they saw that she was someone else, they realized their was someone else, they realized their was someone else, they realized their mistake and just like booked it. So mistake and just like booked it. So mistake and just like booked it. So she's like chalking this whole thing up she's like chalking this whole thing up she's like chalking this whole thing up to like a misunderstanding. But here's a to like a misunderstanding. But here's a to like a misunderstanding. But here's a weird little fact I cannot let go of. weird little fact I cannot let go of. weird little fact I cannot let go of. This person didn't do anything. Didn't This person didn't do anything. Didn't This person didn't do anything. Didn't take anything. take anything. take anything. >> Not much to take. But they did leave >> Not much to take. But they did leave >> Not much to take. But they did leave something behind. A jar of pickles like something behind. A jar of pickles like something behind. A jar of pickles like sitting right there on the kitchen sitting right there on the kitchen sitting right there on the kitchen counter. counter. counter. >> Okay. I didn't know what I thought you >> Okay. I didn't know what I thought you >> Okay. I didn't know what I thought you were going to say, but jar of pickles were going to say, but jar of pickles were going to say, but jar of pickles was like very very far down on the list. was like very very far down on the list. was like very very far down on the list. I I I >> It's It's so odd. I mean, so weird that >> It's It's so odd. I mean, so weird that >> It's It's so odd. I mean, so weird that Rachel pointed it out to her mom and Joe Rachel pointed it out to her mom and Joe Rachel pointed it out to her mom and Joe met. And I mean, the benignness of this met. And I mean, the benignness of this met. And I mean, the benignness of this is probably part of what made her think is probably part of what made her think is probably part of what made her think that this wasn't some like knife that this wasn't some like knife that this wasn't some like knife wielding maniac and just like a friend wielding maniac and just like a friend wielding maniac and just like a friend coming to see the wrong person pickles. coming to see the wrong person pickles. coming to see the wrong person pickles. >> Anyway, that night when she texts Joe >> Anyway, that night when she texts Joe >> Anyway, that night when she texts Joe Matt, they decide that like at a minimum Matt, they decide that like at a minimum Matt, they decide that like at a minimum they need to change the locks, right?

they need to change the locks, right? they need to change the locks, right? Like cuz even if this person didn't do Like cuz even if this person didn't do Like cuz even if this person didn't do anything, who knows how many other anything, who knows how many other anything, who knows how many other people might have keys, right? So Jette people might have keys, right? So Jette people might have keys, right? So Jette grabbed this spare deadbolt from his grabbed this spare deadbolt from his grabbed this spare deadbolt from his dad's house and installed it on her door dad's house and installed it on her door dad's house and installed it on her door that night. situation handled. that night. situation handled. that night. situation handled. >> Wait, then how would an intruder be able >> Wait, then how would an intruder be able >> Wait, then how would an intruder be able to get into our apartment the next to get into our apartment the next to get into our apartment the next night? night? night? >> This is the part of the story that makes >> This is the part of the story that makes >> This is the part of the story that makes you just want to like reach back into you just want to like reach back into you just want to like reach back into the past and like if we could change one the past and like if we could change one the past and like if we could change one thing, maybe everything would be thing, maybe everything would be thing, maybe everything would be different. So, so this this night, different. So, so this this night, different. So, so this this night, Friday, June 3rd, we know her and Jo are Friday, June 3rd, we know her and Jo are Friday, June 3rd, we know her and Jo are at the apartment together and by the at the apartment together and by the at the apartment together and by the time Jette leaves around midnight, time Jette leaves around midnight, time Jette leaves around midnight, Rachel was asleep. Now, according to Rachel was asleep. Now, according to Rachel was asleep. Now, according to what he told Kim and his own mom, who we what he told Kim and his own mom, who we what he told Kim and his own mom, who we talked to as well, JT woke Rachel up and talked to as well, JT woke Rachel up and talked to as well, JT woke Rachel up and he's like, "Listen, I have to go, but he's like, "Listen, I have to go, but he's like, "Listen, I have to go, but when I leave, I need you to get up and when I leave, I need you to get up and when I leave, I need you to get up and lock the door behind me." And it was lock the door behind me." And it was lock the door behind me." And it was like a deadbolt. So, you had to like a deadbolt. So, you had to like a deadbolt. So, you had to physically turn and lock the door. And physically turn and lock the door. And physically turn and lock the door. And Rachel agreed, but then when Joe met Rachel agreed, but then when Joe met Rachel agreed, but then when Joe met left, he said he didn't hear the door left, he said he didn't hear the door left, he said he didn't hear the door lock. So, he actually went back inside lock. So, he actually went back inside lock. So, he actually went back inside and told Rachel again, like, "Listen, and told Rachel again, like, "Listen, and told Rachel again, like, "Listen, you have to get up and lock the door you have to get up and lock the door you have to get up and lock the door behind me. Are you going to get up?" And behind me. Are you going to get up?" And behind me. Are you going to get up?" And she said yes. And so he left, but she said yes. And so he left, but she said yes. And so he left, but apparently he never heard the door lock.

apparently he never heard the door lock. apparently he never heard the door lock. >> So if she fell back asleep, >> So if she fell back asleep, >> So if she fell back asleep, someone didn't even need a key. They someone didn't even need a key. They someone didn't even need a key. They could have just walked right in. Yeah, could have just walked right in. Yeah, could have just walked right in. Yeah, it seems that way. But they wouldn't it seems that way. But they wouldn't it seems that way. But they wouldn't have known that. So this person was have known that. So this person was have known that. So this person was either planning on using an old key, either planning on using an old key, either planning on using an old key, which wouldn't have worked, or breaking which wouldn't have worked, or breaking which wouldn't have worked, or breaking in. Yeah, I I mean, I guess so. I don't in. Yeah, I I mean, I guess so. I don't in. Yeah, I I mean, I guess so. I don't know what it means. Everything I just know what it means. Everything I just know what it means. Everything I just told you is about the extent of what you told you is about the extent of what you told you is about the extent of what you can learn from the police report. There can learn from the police report. There can learn from the police report. There are a lot of little snippets of are a lot of little snippets of are a lot of little snippets of information, but with all the information, but with all the information, but with all the redactions, it's almost impossible to redactions, it's almost impossible to redactions, it's almost impossible to piece together anything coherent. And piece together anything coherent. And piece together anything coherent. And when we reached out to Gilbert PD to try when we reached out to Gilbert PD to try when we reached out to Gilbert PD to try and get some clarity, they said that and get some clarity, they said that and get some clarity, they said that they quote continue to actively they quote continue to actively they quote continue to actively investigate Rachel's case. End quote. investigate Rachel's case. End quote. investigate Rachel's case. End quote. But that was about it. And by the way, But that was about it. And by the way, But that was about it. And by the way, this isn't just like all we have to work this isn't just like all we have to work this isn't just like all we have to work with. This is all that Rachel's own with. This is all that Rachel's own with. This is all that Rachel's own family has to work with. I mean, for the family has to work with. I mean, for the family has to work with. I mean, for the first 2 years, Kim was meeting with first 2 years, Kim was meeting with first 2 years, Kim was meeting with detectives every 4 months or so, but she detectives every 4 months or so, but she detectives every 4 months or so, but she rarely learned anything new. and she rarely learned anything new. and she rarely learned anything new. and she believed that investigators were working believed that investigators were working believed that investigators were working on her daughter's case because that's on her daughter's case because that's on her daughter's case because that's what they kept telling her they were what they kept telling her they were what they kept telling her they were doing and she doesn't know how this doing and she doesn't know how this doing and she doesn't know how this works, right? Like she has to trust works, right? Like she has to trust works, right? Like she has to trust them. But a lot of trust is lost by the them. But a lot of trust is lost by the them. But a lot of trust is lost by the winter of 2024 when Gilbert PD declares winter of 2024 when Gilbert PD declares winter of 2024 when Gilbert PD declares Rachel's case inactive. And that's right Rachel's case inactive. And that's right Rachel's case inactive. And that's right about the same time that the Hansen about the same time that the Hansen about the same time that the Hansen start working with a private start working with a private start working with a private investigator named Justin Yentis. He investigator named Justin Yentis. He investigator named Justin Yentis. He said that he kind of went into the said that he kind of went into the said that he kind of went into the meeting with them more to just like meeting with them more to just like meeting with them more to just like listen, see how he could advise them.

listen, see how he could advise them. listen, see how he could advise them. But after learning Rachel's story, But after learning Rachel's story, But after learning Rachel's story, Justin knew that he needed to help. So, Justin knew that he needed to help. So, Justin knew that he needed to help. So, he took on the case pro bono and has he took on the case pro bono and has he took on the case pro bono and has been working it ever since. And after been working it ever since. And after been working it ever since. And after talking with him and Rachel's mom and talking with him and Rachel's mom and talking with him and Rachel's mom and Joe Met's mom and others, it is safe to Joe Met's mom and others, it is safe to Joe Met's mom and others, it is safe to say that there is way more bubbling say that there is way more bubbling say that there is way more bubbling under the surface of this case than the under the surface of this case than the under the surface of this case than the police report would lead you to believe. police report would lead you to believe. police report would lead you to believe. Specifically, these conversations that Specifically, these conversations that Specifically, these conversations that we had revealed three investigative we had revealed three investigative we had revealed three investigative theories. None of them are perfect. They theories. None of them are perfect. They theories. None of them are perfect. They all have holes, but each also has the all have holes, but each also has the all have holes, but each also has the potential to be the answer as to what potential to be the answer as to what potential to be the answer as to what happened to Rachel and why. But to happened to Rachel and why. But to happened to Rachel and why. But to understand each of them, we almost need understand each of them, we almost need understand each of them, we almost need to work backwards from the shooting and to work backwards from the shooting and to work backwards from the shooting and take them one by one. Starting with the take them one by one. Starting with the take them one by one. Starting with the subletter theory. Now, I'm starting with subletter theory. Now, I'm starting with subletter theory. Now, I'm starting with the subletter theory because if you're the subletter theory because if you're the subletter theory because if you're looking at this case from the outside, looking at this case from the outside, looking at this case from the outside, it seems the most obvious. So, let's it seems the most obvious. So, let's it seems the most obvious. So, let's rewind to a year before the shooting, rewind to a year before the shooting, rewind to a year before the shooting, June 2021. That is when Rachel moved out June 2021. That is when Rachel moved out June 2021. That is when Rachel moved out of her childhood home and rented that of her childhood home and rented that of her childhood home and rented that one-bedroom apartment at the Redstone at one-bedroom apartment at the Redstone at one-bedroom apartment at the Redstone at Santan Village complex in Gilbert. She Santan Village complex in Gilbert. She Santan Village complex in Gilbert. She was there for about 6 months when she was there for about 6 months when she was there for about 6 months when she got her dream job. Basically, she was got her dream job. Basically, she was got her dream job. Basically, she was offered to live and work at a horse offered to live and work at a horse offered to live and work at a horse ranch less than 30 minutes away in Queen ranch less than 30 minutes away in Queen ranch less than 30 minutes away in Queen Creek, Arizona. And Rachel had been Creek, Arizona. And Rachel had been Creek, Arizona. And Rachel had been working with horses her entire life.

working with horses her entire life. working with horses her entire life. Like, this job would allow her to live Like, this job would allow her to live Like, this job would allow her to live in this little cassita on the ranch with in this little cassita on the ranch with in this little cassita on the ranch with the horses literally right outside her the horses literally right outside her the horses literally right outside her window. Well, plus she could bring her window. Well, plus she could bring her window. Well, plus she could bring her own horse, Dash, with her. Like, she own horse, Dash, with her. Like, she own horse, Dash, with her. Like, she just could not pass this up. But that just could not pass this up. But that just could not pass this up. But that meant that she had to find someone to meant that she had to find someone to meant that she had to find someone to sublet her apartment and like pretty sublet her apartment and like pretty sublet her apartment and like pretty quick. So, she posted an ad on Facebook quick. So, she posted an ad on Facebook quick. So, she posted an ad on Facebook Marketplace and through that she Marketplace and through that she Marketplace and through that she connected with a woman named America and connected with a woman named America and connected with a woman named America and they basically just like work out this they basically just like work out this they basically just like work out this deal. So, they didn't know each other deal. So, they didn't know each other deal. So, they didn't know each other before this. According to Kim, no, before this. According to Kim, no, before this. According to Kim, no, Rachel and America only met like once or Rachel and America only met like once or Rachel and America only met like once or twice and then America moved in. And twice and then America moved in. And twice and then America moved in. And remember, Rachel didn't quite go through remember, Rachel didn't quite go through remember, Rachel didn't quite go through the proper channels at her apartment the proper channels at her apartment the proper channels at her apartment complex to get permission to subleasase. complex to get permission to subleasase. complex to get permission to subleasase. It was very like off the books, which It was very like off the books, which It was very like off the books, which her parents say they were not supportive her parents say they were not supportive her parents say they were not supportive of. Both of them tried to talk Rachel of. Both of them tried to talk Rachel of. Both of them tried to talk Rachel out of this arrangement, but she assured out of this arrangement, but she assured out of this arrangement, but she assured them that she and America had met, them that she and America had met, them that she and America had met, everything would be fine. So, for 6 everything would be fine. So, for 6 everything would be fine. So, for 6 months, Rachel and America had a months, Rachel and America had a months, Rachel and America had a strictly business relationship. So, strictly business relationship. So, strictly business relationship. So, Rachel had no idea what she was up to at Rachel had no idea what she was up to at Rachel had no idea what she was up to at the apartment. But Rachel's neighbors the apartment. But Rachel's neighbors the apartment. But Rachel's neighbors had their guesses. Like I said before, had their guesses. Like I said before, had their guesses. Like I said before, they believed that there were drug sales they believed that there were drug sales they believed that there were drug sales happening out of the unit. But again, happening out of the unit. But again, happening out of the unit. But again, Rachel knew none of this. So, so it's Rachel knew none of this. So, so it's Rachel knew none of this. So, so it's not like she kicked America out because not like she kicked America out because not like she kicked America out because of everything going on or because she of everything going on or because she of everything going on or because she was afraid she was in trouble or going was afraid she was in trouble or going was afraid she was in trouble or going to get in trouble or anything.

to get in trouble or anything. to get in trouble or anything. >> No, she ended up kicking America out >> No, she ended up kicking America out >> No, she ended up kicking America out because she got fired from her job at because she got fired from her job at because she got fired from her job at the ranch. And so without her ranch job, the ranch. And so without her ranch job, the ranch. And so without her ranch job, >> she didn't have a place to live. >> she didn't have a place to live. >> she didn't have a place to live. >> Exactly. Which meant that she had to >> Exactly. Which meant that she had to >> Exactly. Which meant that she had to tell America that she needed to like get tell America that she needed to like get tell America that she needed to like get out of the apartment ASAP. So everything out of the apartment ASAP. So everything out of the apartment ASAP. So everything moved kind of quick. America leaving, moved kind of quick. America leaving, moved kind of quick. America leaving, Rachel coming back. And this is the Rachel coming back. And this is the Rachel coming back. And this is the basis for the subletter theory, which is basis for the subletter theory, which is basis for the subletter theory, which is that Rachel was the target. that whoever that Rachel was the target. that whoever that Rachel was the target. that whoever shot her was actually targeting America shot her was actually targeting America shot her was actually targeting America and didn't know that she had moved out and didn't know that she had moved out and didn't know that she had moved out two days prior. two days prior. two days prior. >> So, in this theory, are the intruder and >> So, in this theory, are the intruder and >> So, in this theory, are the intruder and the shooter the same person? the shooter the same person? the shooter the same person? >> In this theory, that wouldn't really >> In this theory, that wouldn't really >> In this theory, that wouldn't really make sense for them to be the same make sense for them to be the same make sense for them to be the same person because the intruder would have person because the intruder would have person because the intruder would have realized that Rachel was in America on realized that Rachel was in America on realized that Rachel was in America on that first night. But, I mean, we know that first night. But, I mean, we know that first night. But, I mean, we know from neighbors that like people would from neighbors that like people would from neighbors that like people would come and go from there. So, like even if come and go from there. So, like even if come and go from there. So, like even if they weren't the same person, it doesn't they weren't the same person, it doesn't they weren't the same person, it doesn't mean that they weren't both there for mean that they weren't both there for mean that they weren't both there for America, if that makes sense. America, if that makes sense. America, if that makes sense. >> Yeah. But don't you think if they >> Yeah. But don't you think if they >> Yeah. But don't you think if they weren't the same person that the first weren't the same person that the first weren't the same person that the first intruder would have come forward, intruder would have come forward, intruder would have come forward, though, like and said like, "Hey, like though, like and said like, "Hey, like though, like and said like, "Hey, like this happened. It wasn't me the second this happened. It wasn't me the second this happened. It wasn't me the second night."

night." night." >> Not necessarily. I mean, like, as sad as >> Not necessarily. I mean, like, as sad as >> Not necessarily. I mean, like, as sad as it sounds, if that person's not the it sounds, if that person's not the it sounds, if that person's not the shooter, they could be afraid of being shooter, they could be afraid of being shooter, they could be afraid of being pinned as the perpetrator. Or like maybe pinned as the perpetrator. Or like maybe pinned as the perpetrator. Or like maybe they were there to buy drugs and they they were there to buy drugs and they they were there to buy drugs and they don't want to put themselves on police's don't want to put themselves on police's don't want to put themselves on police's radar for that. especially if, and this radar for that. especially if, and this radar for that. especially if, and this is just a theory, but they especially is just a theory, but they especially is just a theory, but they especially don't want to be associated with don't want to be associated with don't want to be associated with anything drugrelated happening out of anything drugrelated happening out of anything drugrelated happening out of there if there's any chance the shooter there if there's any chance the shooter there if there's any chance the shooter could have been targeting America for a could have been targeting America for a could have been targeting America for a related reason. related reason. related reason. >> Can you tell if police ever looked into >> Can you tell if police ever looked into >> Can you tell if police ever looked into this theory? We think so based on what this theory? We think so based on what this theory? We think so based on what Kim told Nicole, like she said that Kim told Nicole, like she said that Kim told Nicole, like she said that early on in the investigation, police early on in the investigation, police early on in the investigation, police took Rachel's devices, so they had took Rachel's devices, so they had took Rachel's devices, so they had access to everybody she had talked to. access to everybody she had talked to. access to everybody she had talked to. And they told Kim that they were And they told Kim that they were And they told Kim that they were bringing in people for questioning every bringing in people for questioning every bringing in people for questioning every day as they went through Rachel's day as they went through Rachel's day as they went through Rachel's contacts and got warrants for her social contacts and got warrants for her social contacts and got warrants for her social media accounts, including Facebook, media accounts, including Facebook, media accounts, including Facebook, which Kim knows is how Rachel met which Kim knows is how Rachel met which Kim knows is how Rachel met America. Now, from what I can make out America. Now, from what I can make out America. Now, from what I can make out reading between the redactions, it looks reading between the redactions, it looks reading between the redactions, it looks like at least one individual who was like at least one individual who was like at least one individual who was involved in drug sales while America was involved in drug sales while America was involved in drug sales while America was living in Rachel's apartment was living in Rachel's apartment was living in Rachel's apartment was questioned, but that seemingly went questioned, but that seemingly went questioned, but that seemingly went nowhere. In fact, all we and Rachel's nowhere. In fact, all we and Rachel's nowhere. In fact, all we and Rachel's family know about America is her first family know about America is her first family know about America is her first name. We don't even know what she looked name. We don't even know what she looked name. We don't even know what she looked like. I was just going to ask if she and like. I was just going to ask if she and like. I was just going to ask if she and Rachel like resembled each other at all.

Rachel like resembled each other at all. Rachel like resembled each other at all. >> No idea. Justin, the PI, said that he's >> No idea. Justin, the PI, said that he's >> No idea. Justin, the PI, said that he's actively working to connect with actively working to connect with actively working to connect with America, but he wouldn't give us any America, but he wouldn't give us any America, but he wouldn't give us any more information about how. So, at least more information about how. So, at least more information about how. So, at least in his eyes, this theory is still very in his eyes, this theory is still very in his eyes, this theory is still very much like on the table. I feel like it much like on the table. I feel like it much like on the table. I feel like it seems so unlikely that two different seems so unlikely that two different seems so unlikely that two different people would enter the same apartment people would enter the same apartment people would enter the same apartment two nights in a row. two nights in a row. two nights in a row. >> I know. And so, it's more likely to be >> I know. And so, it's more likely to be >> I know. And so, it's more likely to be the same person. And if it's the same the same person. And if it's the same the same person. And if it's the same person, it can't be mistaken identity. person, it can't be mistaken identity. person, it can't be mistaken identity. Which brings me to theory number two, Which brings me to theory number two, Which brings me to theory number two, the horse ranch theory. Now, I want to the horse ranch theory. Now, I want to the horse ranch theory. Now, I want to note this is one of the theories that note this is one of the theories that note this is one of the theories that the public really ran with after the public really ran with after the public really ran with after Rachel's death. But to be upfront with Rachel's death. But to be upfront with Rachel's death. But to be upfront with everyone, at least at this point, I everyone, at least at this point, I everyone, at least at this point, I think it's the least likely for reasons think it's the least likely for reasons think it's the least likely for reasons that we'll get into. But I am going to that we'll get into. But I am going to that we'll get into. But I am going to lay it out because the context around it lay it out because the context around it lay it out because the context around it is really important in terms of is really important in terms of is really important in terms of understanding Rachel's mental state at understanding Rachel's mental state at understanding Rachel's mental state at the time of her death. So, let me rewind the time of her death. So, let me rewind the time of her death. So, let me rewind to before the shooting in June 2022, to before the shooting in June 2022, to before the shooting in June 2022, before Rachel ever even moved out of her before Rachel ever even moved out of her before Rachel ever even moved out of her childhood home in June 2021. We're going childhood home in June 2021. We're going childhood home in June 2021. We're going to go all the way back to Rachel's to go all the way back to Rachel's to go all the way back to Rachel's childhood, specifically a period of time childhood, specifically a period of time childhood, specifically a period of time that Kim refers to as the Dark Years.

Kim and Todd brought Rachel into their Kim and Todd brought Rachel into their family in February of 2009 when she was family in February of 2009 when she was family in February of 2009 when she was just 6 years old. They were experienced just 6 years old. They were experienced just 6 years old. They were experienced foster parents active in the system for foster parents active in the system for foster parents active in the system for about 18 years and there were about a about 18 years and there were about a about 18 years and there were about a hundred kids that passed through their hundred kids that passed through their hundred kids that passed through their home. Now in 2009 they weren't actively home. Now in 2009 they weren't actively home. Now in 2009 they weren't actively looking to take in any more kids. So it looking to take in any more kids. So it looking to take in any more kids. So it was a surprise when Rachel's case worker was a surprise when Rachel's case worker was a surprise when Rachel's case worker reached out. But it quickly became clear reached out. But it quickly became clear reached out. But it quickly became clear that this wasn't just like a routine that this wasn't just like a routine that this wasn't just like a routine call. This was a last resort because call. This was a last resort because call. This was a last resort because Rachel was in a really bad situation and Rachel was in a really bad situation and Rachel was in a really bad situation and she needed a new home like right then. she needed a new home like right then. she needed a new home like right then. You see, Rachel's biom had her while she You see, Rachel's biom had her while she You see, Rachel's biom had her while she was in rehab. And when she got out, she was in rehab. And when she got out, she was in rehab. And when she got out, she and Rachel went to live with a man that and Rachel went to live with a man that and Rachel went to live with a man that Rachel assumed was her father or Rachel assumed was her father or Rachel assumed was her father or grandfather. But Kim says that this guy grandfather. But Kim says that this guy grandfather. But Kim says that this guy was actually an unrelated cocaine was actually an unrelated cocaine was actually an unrelated cocaine dealer. Now, Rachel remembered very dealer. Now, Rachel remembered very dealer. Now, Rachel remembered very little from this time of her life, but little from this time of her life, but little from this time of her life, but she told Kim that one night her birth she told Kim that one night her birth she told Kim that one night her birth mom said that she was going to go to the mom said that she was going to go to the mom said that she was going to go to the store for some milk and then she just store for some milk and then she just store for some milk and then she just never came back. And from then on it was never came back. And from then on it was never came back. And from then on it was just Rachel and this older guy. And it just Rachel and this older guy. And it just Rachel and this older guy. And it is like during this time that people is like during this time that people is like during this time that people seem to know nothing about. These are seem to know nothing about. These are seem to know nothing about. These are the dark years. Like even Rachel the dark years. Like even Rachel the dark years. Like even Rachel couldn't or wouldn't fill in the blanks.

couldn't or wouldn't fill in the blanks. couldn't or wouldn't fill in the blanks. But she was little. All Kim knows is But she was little. All Kim knows is But she was little. All Kim knows is that one day Rachel came home from that one day Rachel came home from that one day Rachel came home from kindergarten to find the man that she kindergarten to find the man that she kindergarten to find the man that she lived with dead on the floor of the lived with dead on the floor of the lived with dead on the floor of the apartment. Apparently an accident. And apartment. Apparently an accident. And apartment. Apparently an accident. And then 5-year-old Rachel was promptly then 5-year-old Rachel was promptly then 5-year-old Rachel was promptly taken into a child crisis center in taken into a child crisis center in taken into a child crisis center in Phoenix. and then placed into a foster Phoenix. and then placed into a foster Phoenix. and then placed into a foster home with a couple who promised that home with a couple who promised that home with a couple who promised that they would adopt her. But 6 months they would adopt her. But 6 months they would adopt her. But 6 months later, they changed their minds. So that later, they changed their minds. So that later, they changed their minds. So that is when Rachel's case worker called Kim. is when Rachel's case worker called Kim. is when Rachel's case worker called Kim. Now, when Rachel got to the Hansen Now, when Rachel got to the Hansen Now, when Rachel got to the Hansen house, she fit in perfectly. I mean, house, she fit in perfectly. I mean, house, she fit in perfectly. I mean, there were nine other little boys and there were nine other little boys and there were nine other little boys and girls, and Rachel like fell right in the girls, and Rachel like fell right in the girls, and Rachel like fell right in the middle, which meant that there were middle, which meant that there were middle, which meant that there were always like other kids to play with. always like other kids to play with. always like other kids to play with. Plus, she loved her new school, but the Plus, she loved her new school, but the Plus, she loved her new school, but the trauma from those dark years was like trauma from those dark years was like trauma from those dark years was like impossible to ignore. And Rachel ended impossible to ignore. And Rachel ended impossible to ignore. And Rachel ended up being diagnosed with reactive up being diagnosed with reactive up being diagnosed with reactive attachment disorder, which meant that attachment disorder, which meant that attachment disorder, which meant that like forming, I'm sure you know this, like forming, I'm sure you know this, like forming, I'm sure you know this, forming healthy relationships with forming healthy relationships with forming healthy relationships with caregivers was like incredibly hard for caregivers was like incredibly hard for caregivers was like incredibly hard for her. And for a while, nothing seemed to her. And for a while, nothing seemed to her. And for a while, nothing seemed to break through until Rachel herself break through until Rachel herself break through until Rachel herself suggested something unexpected. Horses.

suggested something unexpected. Horses. suggested something unexpected. Horses. >> Oh, like ecoin therapy. >> Oh, like ecoin therapy. >> Oh, like ecoin therapy. >> Exactly. Like six-year-old Rachel likely >> Exactly. Like six-year-old Rachel likely >> Exactly. Like six-year-old Rachel likely didn't know that ecoin therapy was a didn't know that ecoin therapy was a didn't know that ecoin therapy was a thing, thing, thing, >> but like Kim says she was just drawn to >> but like Kim says she was just drawn to >> but like Kim says she was just drawn to horses. Like she would ask to be around horses. Like she would ask to be around horses. Like she would ask to be around them constantly. So, I mean, Kim's like, them constantly. So, I mean, Kim's like, them constantly. So, I mean, Kim's like, "Why not?" "Why not?" "Why not?" >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And from the moment that they got Rachel >> And from the moment that they got Rachel >> And from the moment that they got Rachel her first horse, there was like no going her first horse, there was like no going her first horse, there was like no going back. She fell head over heels in love back. She fell head over heels in love back. She fell head over heels in love with being a horse owner, and it helped with being a horse owner, and it helped with being a horse owner, and it helped her build confidence. It just like her build confidence. It just like her build confidence. It just like blossom as a young girl, blossom as a young girl, blossom as a young girl, >> horse girl, >> horse girl, >> horse girl, >> as as a horse girl. I'm sure you know. >> as as a horse girl. I'm sure you know. >> as as a horse girl. I'm sure you know. >> And listen, this passion stuck with her >> And listen, this passion stuck with her >> And listen, this passion stuck with her through middle school and high school. through middle school and high school. through middle school and high school. She ended up graduating early at just She ended up graduating early at just She ended up graduating early at just 16. She earned a full scholarship to 16. She earned a full scholarship to 16. She earned a full scholarship to Northern Arizona University. And all the Northern Arizona University. And all the Northern Arizona University. And all the while in her free time, she was still while in her free time, she was still while in her free time, she was still riding, still caring for, still working riding, still caring for, still working riding, still caring for, still working with horses. First her own, and then she with horses. First her own, and then she with horses. First her own, and then she was being hired by others to care for was being hired by others to care for was being hired by others to care for theirs. And after graduating from high theirs. And after graduating from high theirs. And after graduating from high school, she decided to make these gigs school, she decided to make these gigs school, she decided to make these gigs official by like starting her own official by like starting her own official by like starting her own business with business with business with >> like a college side hustle. >> like a college side hustle. >> like a college side hustle. >> No. So Rachel never ended up actually >> No. So Rachel never ended up actually >> No. So Rachel never ended up actually like going to college. She enrolled, she like going to college. She enrolled, she like going to college. She enrolled, she made the arrangements, right? She got made the arrangements, right? She got made the arrangements, right? She got that full scholarship, that full scholarship, that full scholarship, >> but she was going to begin her freshman >> but she was going to begin her freshman >> but she was going to begin her freshman year. And then like a week before year. And then like a week before year. And then like a week before moving, Kim says that Rachel had this moving, Kim says that Rachel had this moving, Kim says that Rachel had this like panic attack. Like being that far like panic attack. Like being that far like panic attack. Like being that far from home suddenly felt super from home suddenly felt super from home suddenly felt super overwhelming to her. So instead of going overwhelming to her. So instead of going overwhelming to her. So instead of going to college, Rachel told her mom that she to college, Rachel told her mom that she to college, Rachel told her mom that she was ready to start her life now, like was ready to start her life now, like was ready to start her life now, like she'd get her own place, focus on her she'd get her own place, focus on her she'd get her own place, focus on her business. Like if she wanted a degree, business. Like if she wanted a degree, business. Like if she wanted a degree, like she could go back and do that like she could go back and do that like she could go back and do that later. But I mean, it's also pretty rare later. But I mean, it's also pretty rare later. But I mean, it's also pretty rare to like know what you want to do that to like know what you want to do that to like know what you want to do that young. So when Rachel got the offer to young. So when Rachel got the offer to young. So when Rachel got the offer to live and work at the horse ranch in

live and work at the horse ranch in live and work at the horse ranch in Queen Creek, clearly she couldn't turn Queen Creek, clearly she couldn't turn Queen Creek, clearly she couldn't turn it down. This was her dream job and it it down. This was her dream job and it it down. This was her dream job and it only took her 30 minutes away from home. only took her 30 minutes away from home. only took her 30 minutes away from home. So, how did things go sideways? So, how did things go sideways? So, how did things go sideways? It sounds like it happened gradually. It sounds like it happened gradually. It sounds like it happened gradually. So, the owners of the ranch, Liz So, the owners of the ranch, Liz So, the owners of the ranch, Liz Robinson and Amanda Krugan, they didn't Robinson and Amanda Krugan, they didn't Robinson and Amanda Krugan, they didn't respond to us on advice of their respond to us on advice of their respond to us on advice of their attorney, and they wouldn't speak to Kim attorney, and they wouldn't speak to Kim attorney, and they wouldn't speak to Kim and Todd's PI either, but our reporter and Todd's PI either, but our reporter and Todd's PI either, but our reporter Nicole was able to reach their attorney. Nicole was able to reach their attorney. Nicole was able to reach their attorney. So, what I'm going to outline is So, what I'm going to outline is So, what I'm going to outline is everything I know from Nicole's everything I know from Nicole's everything I know from Nicole's conversation with their attorney, her conversation with their attorney, her conversation with their attorney, her conversation with Kim, and then the conversation with Kim, and then the conversation with Kim, and then the little we can glean from the police little we can glean from the police little we can glean from the police file. So, it sounds like things at the file. So, it sounds like things at the file. So, it sounds like things at the ranch started out great. I mean, Rachel ranch started out great. I mean, Rachel ranch started out great. I mean, Rachel got the impression that the owners got the impression that the owners got the impression that the owners didn't necessarily know a whole lot didn't necessarily know a whole lot didn't necessarily know a whole lot about horses, but like she didn't mind. about horses, but like she didn't mind. about horses, but like she didn't mind. Like, this is her job. I mean, she loved Like, this is her job. I mean, she loved Like, this is her job. I mean, she loved the work and she was getting paid to do the work and she was getting paid to do the work and she was getting paid to do it. Like, this was amazing. But then it. Like, this was amazing. But then it. Like, this was amazing. But then things started going wrong. in an things started going wrong. in an things started going wrong. in an interview in the police file, which I'm interview in the police file, which I'm interview in the police file, which I'm gonna guess is with Amanda, like her gonna guess is with Amanda, like her gonna guess is with Amanda, like her name. I only guess this because her name name. I only guess this because her name name. I only guess this because her name was left unredacted one time. Like I was left unredacted one time. Like I was left unredacted one time. Like I don't that was a mistake, but in this don't that was a mistake, but in this don't that was a mistake, but in this interview it says, quote, "Rachel was interview it says, quote, "Rachel was interview it says, quote, "Rachel was not keeping up with the agreement not keeping up with the agreement not keeping up with the agreement regarding training the horses." End regarding training the horses." End regarding training the horses." End quote.

quote. quote. >> What was the agreement? >> What was the agreement? >> What was the agreement? >> Nicole asked Kim and she gave us this >> Nicole asked Kim and she gave us this >> Nicole asked Kim and she gave us this example. So, there was a young horse example. So, there was a young horse example. So, there was a young horse that Rachel was training for riding. And that Rachel was training for riding. And that Rachel was training for riding. And if you know anything about horses, you if you know anything about horses, you if you know anything about horses, you know that you can't just like hop on one know that you can't just like hop on one know that you can't just like hop on one once it's big enough and expect to be once it's big enough and expect to be once it's big enough and expect to be able to ride it. Like able to ride it. Like able to ride it. Like >> it's like a process. It's a long thing. >> it's like a process. It's a long thing. >> it's like a process. It's a long thing. >> Yeah. Like it it takes a while before >> Yeah. Like it it takes a while before >> Yeah. Like it it takes a while before someone can get on a horse and like get someone can get on a horse and like get someone can get on a horse and like get on a horse and it be safe. But Kim says on a horse and it be safe. But Kim says on a horse and it be safe. But Kim says that apparently the owners felt like that apparently the owners felt like that apparently the owners felt like Rachel was moving too slowly. They Rachel was moving too slowly. They Rachel was moving too slowly. They wanted her to get on this horse like wanted her to get on this horse like wanted her to get on this horse like ASAP. Now Rachel told her mom that she ASAP. Now Rachel told her mom that she ASAP. Now Rachel told her mom that she knew the horse wasn't ready, but she was knew the horse wasn't ready, but she was knew the horse wasn't ready, but she was afraid that if she refused, she would afraid that if she refused, she would afraid that if she refused, she would get in trouble. So, she got on the horse get in trouble. So, she got on the horse get in trouble. So, she got on the horse and within like 30 seconds, the horse and within like 30 seconds, the horse and within like 30 seconds, the horse threw her off. Now, she wasn't injured, threw her off. Now, she wasn't injured, threw her off. Now, she wasn't injured, but that moment created a trust fracture but that moment created a trust fracture but that moment created a trust fracture basically between Rachel and the owners. basically between Rachel and the owners. basically between Rachel and the owners. And it feels like things just went And it feels like things just went And it feels like things just went downhill from there. Like, there was downhill from there. Like, there was downhill from there. Like, there was this one time that Rachel quote caused this one time that Rachel quote caused this one time that Rachel quote caused approximately $10,000 worth of damage to approximately $10,000 worth of damage to approximately $10,000 worth of damage to a horse trailer end quote. There was a horse trailer end quote. There was a horse trailer end quote. There was another time that Rachel needed surgery another time that Rachel needed surgery another time that Rachel needed surgery on her finger after being kicked by a on her finger after being kicked by a on her finger after being kicked by a horse, which led to a disagreement with horse, which led to a disagreement with horse, which led to a disagreement with the owners about when she could safely the owners about when she could safely the owners about when she could safely return to work. But the final straw came return to work. But the final straw came return to work. But the final straw came in May of 2022. So Rachel had helped in May of 2022. So Rachel had helped in May of 2022. So Rachel had helped broker a sale, like one of the horses at broker a sale, like one of the horses at broker a sale, like one of the horses at the ranch in exchange for three other the ranch in exchange for three other the ranch in exchange for three other horses. But only one horse arrived. And horses. But only one horse arrived. And horses. But only one horse arrived. And so because this deal fell apart, layered so because this deal fell apart, layered so because this deal fell apart, layered on top of everything else, the owners on top of everything else, the owners on top of everything else, the owners fired Rachel. And so this is right fired Rachel. And so this is right fired Rachel. And so this is right around May 24th, 2022. And this took a

around May 24th, 2022. And this took a around May 24th, 2022. And this took a huge toll on Rachel's mental health. huge toll on Rachel's mental health. huge toll on Rachel's mental health. There's actually an incident outlined in There's actually an incident outlined in There's actually an incident outlined in the police report that says on May 27th, the police report that says on May 27th, the police report that says on May 27th, so this is 3 days later, Rachel took her so this is 3 days later, Rachel took her so this is 3 days later, Rachel took her handgun and drove up to Sedona and she handgun and drove up to Sedona and she handgun and drove up to Sedona and she called the ranch owners, told them she called the ranch owners, told them she called the ranch owners, told them she was thinking about suicide. Thankfully, was thinking about suicide. Thankfully, was thinking about suicide. Thankfully, they called 911 and police were able to they called 911 and police were able to they called 911 and police were able to get to her before she did anything and get to her before she did anything and get to her before she did anything and they were able to convince her to check they were able to convince her to check they were able to convince her to check herself into Verde Valley Medical Center herself into Verde Valley Medical Center herself into Verde Valley Medical Center for treatment. And I want to add that it for treatment. And I want to add that it for treatment. And I want to add that it wasn't just the job that was weighing on wasn't just the job that was weighing on wasn't just the job that was weighing on Rachel. She and Jo were having Rachel. She and Jo were having Rachel. She and Jo were having relationship troubles, too. And to make relationship troubles, too. And to make relationship troubles, too. And to make everything worse, the day after Rachel everything worse, the day after Rachel everything worse, the day after Rachel was admitted for treatment, she learned was admitted for treatment, she learned was admitted for treatment, she learned that the owners of the ranch were that the owners of the ranch were that the owners of the ranch were refusing to return her horse Dash until refusing to return her horse Dash until refusing to return her horse Dash until they received $5,000 that Rachel they received $5,000 that Rachel they received $5,000 that Rachel allegedly owed them for services allegedly owed them for services allegedly owed them for services rendered to Dash while she was living on rendered to Dash while she was living on rendered to Dash while she was living on the property. Like things like vet care, the property. Like things like vet care, the property. Like things like vet care, feed, stuff like that. The owners feed, stuff like that. The owners feed, stuff like that. The owners basically gave Rachel's dad, Todd, their basically gave Rachel's dad, Todd, their basically gave Rachel's dad, Todd, their attorney's number and is like, "Listen, attorney's number and is like, "Listen, attorney's number and is like, "Listen, work it out with him." So, hearing that work it out with him." So, hearing that work it out with him." So, hearing that her horse was essentially being held for her horse was essentially being held for her horse was essentially being held for ransom, Rachel decided she needed to ransom, Rachel decided she needed to ransom, Rachel decided she needed to like get out of this treatment center like get out of this treatment center like get out of this treatment center ASAP. Like, she had to sort everything ASAP. Like, she had to sort everything ASAP. Like, she had to sort everything out. Dash's return, her relationship out. Dash's return, her relationship out. Dash's return, her relationship with Joette, moving back to her with Joette, moving back to her with Joette, moving back to her apartment now that she had nowhere to apartment now that she had nowhere to apartment now that she had nowhere to live.

live. live. >> So, on June 1st, we're now like right >> So, on June 1st, we're now like right >> So, on June 1st, we're now like right here, this is the first day she's back. here, this is the first day she's back. here, this is the first day she's back. She checks out. As we know, the next day She checks out. As we know, the next day She checks out. As we know, the next day we get the pickle intruder. we get the pickle intruder. we get the pickle intruder. >> Mhm. And then after that we get the >> Mhm. And then after that we get the >> Mhm. And then after that we get the shooting. So I guess what's the theory shooting. So I guess what's the theory shooting. So I guess what's the theory that the owners targeted Rachel that the owners targeted Rachel that the owners targeted Rachel >> basically. And this this what I'm saying >> basically. And this this what I'm saying >> basically. And this this what I'm saying like it it's far-fetched in my mind. like it it's far-fetched in my mind. like it it's far-fetched in my mind. >> Well yeah especially when they were the >> Well yeah especially when they were the >> Well yeah especially when they were the ones to call 911 about Rachel's like ones to call 911 about Rachel's like ones to call 911 about Rachel's like mental health incident. mental health incident. mental health incident. >> I know. But for some reason this is the >> I know. But for some reason this is the >> I know. But for some reason this is the one theory that got like a ton of one theory that got like a ton of one theory that got like a ton of traction online and even in the news. traction online and even in the news. traction online and even in the news. Liz and Amanda's attorney said that Liz and Amanda's attorney said that Liz and Amanda's attorney said that everybody was taking a to Facebook and everybody was taking a to Facebook and everybody was taking a to Facebook and like dragging his client's names through like dragging his client's names through like dragging his client's names through the mud, accusing them of Rachel's the mud, accusing them of Rachel's the mud, accusing them of Rachel's murder. People started leaving them murder. People started leaving them murder. People started leaving them harassing messages and like calling harassing messages and like calling harassing messages and like calling investigators about them. I investigators about them. I investigators about them. I >> mean, are these women dangerous? Like I >> mean, are these women dangerous? Like I >> mean, are these women dangerous? Like I I I guess I'm like missing the jump I I guess I'm like missing the jump I I guess I'm like missing the jump here. here. here. >> Yeah. So, like from what we found, like >> Yeah. So, like from what we found, like >> Yeah. So, like from what we found, like they both have criminal records, but they both have criminal records, but they both have criminal records, but like mostly for driving infractions, like mostly for driving infractions, like mostly for driving infractions, nothing violent. nothing violent. nothing violent. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> And Kim said that Rachel never felt like >> And Kim said that Rachel never felt like >> And Kim said that Rachel never felt like she was in danger at their ranch. It was she was in danger at their ranch. It was she was in danger at their ranch. It was actually Amanda and Liz who gave Rachel actually Amanda and Liz who gave Rachel actually Amanda and Liz who gave Rachel the handgun that she took to Sedona.

the handgun that she took to Sedona. the handgun that she took to Sedona. They gave it to her for protection like They gave it to her for protection like They gave it to her for protection like earlier on, but because there was so earlier on, but because there was so earlier on, but because there was so much negativity swirling around the much negativity swirling around the much negativity swirling around the ranch owners with Dash and the job, ranch owners with Dash and the job, ranch owners with Dash and the job, everyone, I think, just like kind of everyone, I think, just like kind of everyone, I think, just like kind of jumped to this conclusion. Now, Liz and jumped to this conclusion. Now, Liz and jumped to this conclusion. Now, Liz and Amanda's attorney said that they both Amanda's attorney said that they both Amanda's attorney said that they both spoke to investigators within the first spoke to investigators within the first spoke to investigators within the first few days of the murder and they were few days of the murder and they were few days of the murder and they were cleared based on alibis. And he also cleared based on alibis. And he also cleared based on alibis. And he also said that he thought the police files said that he thought the police files said that he thought the police files were over redacted, which like same. But were over redacted, which like same. But were over redacted, which like same. But in his case, if Liz and Amanda really in his case, if Liz and Amanda really in his case, if Liz and Amanda really were cleared right away, then I would were cleared right away, then I would were cleared right away, then I would think that there are lines that could think that there are lines that could think that there are lines that could actually like prove their innocence like actually like prove their innocence like actually like prove their innocence like in the file, like why wouldn't we? And I in the file, like why wouldn't we? And I in the file, like why wouldn't we? And I think they would even look back. think they would even look back. think they would even look back. >> Yeah. And with the files being so >> Yeah. And with the files being so >> Yeah. And with the files being so redacted, it's just keeping Liz and redacted, it's just keeping Liz and redacted, it's just keeping Liz and Amanda under public suspicion. Amanda under public suspicion. Amanda under public suspicion. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Did the Hansens ever get dashback? I >> Did the Hansens ever get dashback? I >> Did the Hansens ever get dashback? I don't want to like too hard. don't want to like too hard. don't want to like too hard. >> Yeah. No, they did. So Liz and Amanda's >> Yeah. No, they did. So Liz and Amanda's >> Yeah. No, they did. So Liz and Amanda's attorney said that the fee was paid and attorney said that the fee was paid and attorney said that the fee was paid and that the Hansens were able to get Dash that the Hansens were able to get Dash that the Hansens were able to get Dash back. I think it was like a month after back. I think it was like a month after back. I think it was like a month after Rachel was killed. So this brings me to Rachel was killed. So this brings me to Rachel was killed. So this brings me to my third theory. The Gary Bailey theory, my third theory. The Gary Bailey theory, my third theory. The Gary Bailey theory, aka Joe's dad. What?

>> So remember how I said Rachel and Jo >> So remember how I said Rachel and Jo were having relationship trouble around were having relationship trouble around were having relationship trouble around the time she was fired? Yeah. the time she was fired? Yeah. the time she was fired? Yeah. >> Well, a lot of that tension centered >> Well, a lot of that tension centered >> Well, a lot of that tension centered around Gary, his dad. By all accounts, around Gary, his dad. By all accounts, around Gary, his dad. By all accounts, he and Rachel did not get along. Jo was he and Rachel did not get along. Jo was he and Rachel did not get along. Jo was extremely close with his dad. And Nicole extremely close with his dad. And Nicole extremely close with his dad. And Nicole actually spoke with Jett's mom, Ava, for actually spoke with Jett's mom, Ava, for actually spoke with Jett's mom, Ava, for this episode. And she said that Jette this episode. And she said that Jette this episode. And she said that Jette didn't have many friends because he and didn't have many friends because he and didn't have many friends because he and Gary would just like do everything Gary would just like do everything Gary would just like do everything together. Like to the point where Ava together. Like to the point where Ava together. Like to the point where Ava actually felt bad for her other son. actually felt bad for her other son. actually felt bad for her other son. Now, things were fine at first when Now, things were fine at first when Now, things were fine at first when Rachel and Jo got together, but their Rachel and Jo got together, but their Rachel and Jo got together, but their relationship progressed pretty fast. relationship progressed pretty fast. relationship progressed pretty fast. Like 8 months after they met, they got Like 8 months after they met, they got Like 8 months after they met, they got engaged. And the closer Rachel and Joe engaged. And the closer Rachel and Joe engaged. And the closer Rachel and Joe met got, the more Gary had someone to met got, the more Gary had someone to met got, the more Gary had someone to compete for Joe Met's attention. And compete for Joe Met's attention. And compete for Joe Met's attention. And Rachel told her mom, Kim, that she felt Rachel told her mom, Kim, that she felt Rachel told her mom, Kim, that she felt like Gary was disturbed by the like Gary was disturbed by the like Gary was disturbed by the possibility of losing Joe Met. So, he possibility of losing Joe Met. So, he possibility of losing Joe Met. So, he intentionally would try to cause intentionally would try to cause intentionally would try to cause conflict between them. And to make conflict between them. And to make conflict between them. And to make everything worse, right around the time everything worse, right around the time everything worse, right around the time Rachel and Joe met were getting really Rachel and Joe met were getting really Rachel and Joe met were getting really serious, Ava filed for divorce from serious, Ava filed for divorce from serious, Ava filed for divorce from Gary. Something that she'd been wanting Gary. Something that she'd been wanting Gary. Something that she'd been wanting to do for a long time. And may I take to do for a long time. And may I take to do for a long time. And may I take you on a quick side quest. You never you on a quick side quest. You never you on a quick side quest. You never have to ask for permission, but of have to ask for permission, but of have to ask for permission, but of course.

course. course. >> So, I need to tell you about Ava and >> So, I need to tell you about Ava and >> So, I need to tell you about Ava and Gary's relationship. So, back in 2015, Gary's relationship. So, back in 2015, Gary's relationship. So, back in 2015, she told us that she had been suspicious she told us that she had been suspicious she told us that she had been suspicious Gary was cheating on her. So she put a Gary was cheating on her. So she put a Gary was cheating on her. So she put a recording device in his work truck every recording device in his work truck every recording device in his work truck every day for a month. He ran a landscaping day for a month. He ran a landscaping day for a month. He ran a landscaping business. Spent a lot of time riding business. Spent a lot of time riding business. Spent a lot of time riding around his truck. So if something was around his truck. So if something was around his truck. So if something was going down, she knew this is where she going down, she knew this is where she going down, she knew this is where she would catch wind of it. would catch wind of it. would catch wind of it. >> Girl got more than just wind. She got >> Girl got more than just wind. She got >> Girl got more than just wind. She got recordings of Gary on tape recordings of Gary on tape recordings of Gary on tape >> cheating on her with the men he >> cheating on her with the men he >> cheating on her with the men he employed. employed. employed. >> What? Yeah. So she went to Gary with >> What? Yeah. So she went to Gary with >> What? Yeah. So she went to Gary with these recordings being like, "I know these recordings being like, "I know these recordings being like, "I know what you've been doing. I want a what you've been doing. I want a what you've been doing. I want a divorce. Literally, you can have divorce. Literally, you can have divorce. Literally, you can have everything. I just want the kids. But everything. I just want the kids. But everything. I just want the kids. But freaking Gary, he's like, "Oh, that's freaking Gary, he's like, "Oh, that's freaking Gary, he's like, "Oh, that's not me cheating. I knew you were not me cheating. I knew you were not me cheating. I knew you were recording, so I staged all of this." I'm recording, so I staged all of this." I'm recording, so I staged all of this." I'm sorry. sorry. sorry. I know. We tried every possible way to I know. We tried every possible way to I know. We tried every possible way to reach Gary for this episode, but he reach Gary for this episode, but he reach Gary for this episode, but he never got back to us. But I know from never got back to us. But I know from never got back to us. But I know from Ava that in response to her request for Ava that in response to her request for Ava that in response to her request for a divorce, Gary apparently said that he a divorce, Gary apparently said that he a divorce, Gary apparently said that he wanted to take Ava to court over it. So, wanted to take Ava to court over it. So, wanted to take Ava to court over it. So, not wanting to lose her kids, Ava not wanting to lose her kids, Ava not wanting to lose her kids, Ava promised herself that she would stay promised herself that she would stay promised herself that she would stay with Gary until all the kids were with Gary until all the kids were with Gary until all the kids were adults.

adults. adults. Which brings us to September 2021. Which brings us to September 2021. Which brings us to September 2021. Ava was ready to end it and she texted Ava was ready to end it and she texted Ava was ready to end it and she texted her bishop to like let him know. But her bishop to like let him know. But her bishop to like let him know. But what she didn't know is that when she what she didn't know is that when she what she didn't know is that when she texted her bishop, she made a group chat texted her bishop, she made a group chat texted her bishop, she made a group chat with Bishop and Gary. with Bishop and Gary. with Bishop and Gary. >> That's like constantly my worst >> That's like constantly my worst >> That's like constantly my worst nightmare. nightmare. nightmare. >> And when Gary received that text, dude >> And when Gary received that text, dude >> And when Gary received that text, dude lost it. Apparently, he had this major lost it. Apparently, he had this major lost it. Apparently, he had this major personality shift and he started acting personality shift and he started acting personality shift and he started acting really strangely. Him and Ava started really strangely. Him and Ava started really strangely. Him and Ava started sleeping in different rooms and Ava said sleeping in different rooms and Ava said sleeping in different rooms and Ava said that she heard that Gary was bad that she heard that Gary was bad that she heard that Gary was bad mouthing her all over town and at mouthing her all over town and at mouthing her all over town and at church. Nicole actually spoke to one of church. Nicole actually spoke to one of church. Nicole actually spoke to one of these church members. Her name is these church members. Her name is these church members. Her name is Jennifer Simmons. And she said that Jennifer Simmons. And she said that Jennifer Simmons. And she said that Gary's whole temperament changed so Gary's whole temperament changed so Gary's whole temperament changed so much, like he was just angry all the much, like he was just angry all the much, like he was just angry all the time and constantly ranting that they time and constantly ranting that they time and constantly ranting that they started referring to him as scary Gary started referring to him as scary Gary started referring to him as scary Gary and like avoiding him at all costs. And and like avoiding him at all costs. And and like avoiding him at all costs. And things just escalated from there. In things just escalated from there. In things just escalated from there. In November 2021, there was this one day November 2021, there was this one day November 2021, there was this one day where Gary recorded himself barging into where Gary recorded himself barging into where Gary recorded himself barging into an apartment that Ava was staying at, an apartment that Ava was staying at, an apartment that Ava was staying at, saying like awful things about how she saying like awful things about how she saying like awful things about how she was cheating on him and that he was was cheating on him and that he was was cheating on him and that he was there to catch her having sex. Mind you, there to catch her having sex. Mind you, there to catch her having sex. Mind you, Ava was like fully clothed watching TV Ava was like fully clothed watching TV Ava was like fully clothed watching TV in her bedroom. And she called the in her bedroom. And she called the in her bedroom. And she called the police after this, but not before Gary police after this, but not before Gary police after this, but not before Gary sent the video to their entire family sent the video to their entire family sent the video to their entire family and like people from church.

and like people from church. and like people from church. >> A video of her watching TV. Yeah, >> A video of her watching TV. Yeah, >> A video of her watching TV. Yeah, >> dude. You're the only one who looks bad >> dude. You're the only one who looks bad >> dude. You're the only one who looks bad in this video. Scary Gary. in this video. Scary Gary. in this video. Scary Gary. >> I know. So, after this incident, that's >> I know. So, after this incident, that's >> I know. So, after this incident, that's when Ava got an order of protection when Ava got an order of protection when Ava got an order of protection against him. Then, in December, there against him. Then, in December, there against him. Then, in December, there was an instance where the Hansens was an instance where the Hansens was an instance where the Hansens actually had to kick Gary out of their actually had to kick Gary out of their actually had to kick Gary out of their home because of the way he was speaking home because of the way he was speaking home because of the way he was speaking about Ava at their dinner table. That about Ava at their dinner table. That about Ava at their dinner table. That was like the first and only time that he was like the first and only time that he was like the first and only time that he was ever in their house. And right after was ever in their house. And right after was ever in their house. And right after that, Joe met proposed to Rachel, which that, Joe met proposed to Rachel, which that, Joe met proposed to Rachel, which apparently just like sent Gary off even apparently just like sent Gary off even apparently just like sent Gary off even more. He started conflating the two more. He started conflating the two more. He started conflating the two women in his head. Ava said that he women in his head. Ava said that he women in his head. Ava said that he started calling Ava Rachel and Rachel started calling Ava Rachel and Rachel started calling Ava Rachel and Rachel Ava. And according to what Kim said Ava. And according to what Kim said Ava. And according to what Kim said happened next, it sounds like things happened next, it sounds like things happened next, it sounds like things might have finally come to a head. On might have finally come to a head. On might have finally come to a head. On April 27th, 2022, this is like just over April 27th, 2022, this is like just over April 27th, 2022, this is like just over a month before Rachel would be murdered. a month before Rachel would be murdered. a month before Rachel would be murdered. Everything boiled over. So Rachel was at Everything boiled over. So Rachel was at Everything boiled over. So Rachel was at a point where she was like fed up with a point where she was like fed up with a point where she was like fed up with Gary inserting himself into her Gary inserting himself into her Gary inserting himself into her relationship with JT. So according to relationship with JT. So according to relationship with JT. So according to Ava, Rachel texted Jet an ultimatum. It Ava, Rachel texted Jet an ultimatum. It Ava, Rachel texted Jet an ultimatum. It is either your dad or it's me. The is either your dad or it's me. The is either your dad or it's me. The conversation spiraled. Jette messaged conversation spiraled. Jette messaged conversation spiraled. Jette messaged back that he was tired of life and that back that he was tired of life and that back that he was tired of life and that he was experiencing suicidal thoughts.

he was experiencing suicidal thoughts. he was experiencing suicidal thoughts. So Rachel panicked, tried calling him, So Rachel panicked, tried calling him, So Rachel panicked, tried calling him, but he like wasn't answering. Wasn't but he like wasn't answering. Wasn't but he like wasn't answering. Wasn't even answering for his mom either. So even answering for his mom either. So even answering for his mom either. So Rachel drove to Gary's house to see if Rachel drove to Gary's house to see if Rachel drove to Gary's house to see if Joette was there. He wasn't, but Gary Joette was there. He wasn't, but Gary Joette was there. He wasn't, but Gary was. He was actually in his car in the was. He was actually in his car in the was. He was actually in his car in the driveway. And at this point, Rachel driveway. And at this point, Rachel driveway. And at this point, Rachel might have actually been happy to see might have actually been happy to see might have actually been happy to see him because she knew if Joette was going him because she knew if Joette was going him because she knew if Joette was going to answer the phone for anyone, it was to answer the phone for anyone, it was to answer the phone for anyone, it was going it was his dad, right? going it was his dad, right? going it was his dad, right? >> But she asked Gary to call him and >> But she asked Gary to call him and >> But she asked Gary to call him and Gary's like, "No, he refused." Gary's like, "No, he refused." Gary's like, "No, he refused." >> Why? Gary's like, "Well, you know, I >> Why? Gary's like, "Well, you know, I >> Why? Gary's like, "Well, you know, I don't I like basically he said he didn't don't I like basically he said he didn't don't I like basically he said he didn't take the suicide threat seriously, but take the suicide threat seriously, but take the suicide threat seriously, but like Rachel still was." So, she blocked like Rachel still was." So, she blocked like Rachel still was." So, she blocked the driveway with the car that she was the driveway with the car that she was the driveway with the car that she was driving and refused to let Gary leave driving and refused to let Gary leave driving and refused to let Gary leave until he would call his son. And what until he would call his son. And what until he would call his son. And what happens next happened fast. Gary put his happens next happened fast. Gary put his happens next happened fast. Gary put his car in reverse, backed into the car that car in reverse, backed into the car that car in reverse, backed into the car that Rachel was in, tried and failed to pull Rachel was in, tried and failed to pull Rachel was in, tried and failed to pull her out of it, and then like gave up and her out of it, and then like gave up and her out of it, and then like gave up and drove away right over the front lawn. drove away right over the front lawn. drove away right over the front lawn. Now, when this happened, Rachel called Now, when this happened, Rachel called Now, when this happened, Rachel called police, and then shortly after they police, and then shortly after they police, and then shortly after they arrived, JT was found. He's safe. But arrived, JT was found. He's safe. But arrived, JT was found. He's safe. But Rachel, understandably, is like totally Rachel, understandably, is like totally Rachel, understandably, is like totally shaken up. Yeah. According to the police shaken up. Yeah. According to the police shaken up. Yeah. According to the police report, officers found her crying in report, officers found her crying in report, officers found her crying in front of Gary's house. And she recounted front of Gary's house. And she recounted front of Gary's house. And she recounted the whole confrontation to them, the whole confrontation to them, the whole confrontation to them, including another chilling detail. She including another chilling detail. She including another chilling detail. She said that day, Gary sent her a text that said that day, Gary sent her a text that said that day, Gary sent her a text that read, "If I ever see you in my house read, "If I ever see you in my house read, "If I ever see you in my house again, I will shoot you in the head."

again, I will shoot you in the head." again, I will shoot you in the head." And she said that he had been And she said that he had been And she said that he had been threatening her for a while. Now, no threatening her for a while. Now, no threatening her for a while. Now, no charges were filed after this. And then charges were filed after this. And then charges were filed after this. And then Rachel was killed. And what is JT saying Rachel was killed. And what is JT saying Rachel was killed. And what is JT saying about all this? Like whose side is he about all this? Like whose side is he about all this? Like whose side is he taking? He seemed to have been torn down taking? He seemed to have been torn down taking? He seemed to have been torn down the middle. Like I said, he never got the middle. Like I said, he never got the middle. Like I said, he never got back to us for this episode. But what I back to us for this episode. But what I back to us for this episode. But what I do know from his mom, Ava, is that he do know from his mom, Ava, is that he do know from his mom, Ava, is that he and Rachel's relationship got so rocky and Rachel's relationship got so rocky and Rachel's relationship got so rocky after this that they actually called off after this that they actually called off after this that they actually called off their engagement. And then, as you know, their engagement. And then, as you know, their engagement. And then, as you know, Rachel gets fired. Her mental health Rachel gets fired. Her mental health Rachel gets fired. Her mental health declines. She spends some time in that declines. She spends some time in that declines. She spends some time in that facility. But her first night out, facility. But her first night out, facility. But her first night out, remember she goes to clean her remember she goes to clean her remember she goes to clean her apartment, but then rather than staying apartment, but then rather than staying apartment, but then rather than staying there or going to her parents, she there or going to her parents, she there or going to her parents, she actually went to Ava's to stay the night actually went to Ava's to stay the night actually went to Ava's to stay the night with Jette. And Ava said they basically with Jette. And Ava said they basically with Jette. And Ava said they basically just like she calls it like hitting the just like she calls it like hitting the just like she calls it like hitting the reset button. They talked everything out reset button. They talked everything out reset button. They talked everything out and got to a really good place. So and got to a really good place. So and got to a really good place. So that's June 1st. that's June 1st. that's June 1st. >> June 1st. Yes. And Ava said the next >> June 1st. Yes. And Ava said the next >> June 1st. Yes. And Ava said the next day, June 2nd, day, June 2nd, day, June 2nd, >> intruder.

>> intruder. >> intruder. >> Yes. That day, one of her daughters told >> Yes. That day, one of her daughters told >> Yes. That day, one of her daughters told Gary that about the rekindling, that Gary that about the rekindling, that Gary that about the rekindling, that they're like back together. Oh, they're like back together. Oh, they're like back together. Oh, >> and Gary is pissed. Then there is a part >> and Gary is pissed. Then there is a part >> and Gary is pissed. Then there is a part of June 3rd that I haven't told you yet. of June 3rd that I haven't told you yet. of June 3rd that I haven't told you yet. >> So, the night of the shooting, J is with >> So, the night of the shooting, J is with >> So, the night of the shooting, J is with Rachel, right? Yeah. And he's there till Rachel, right? Yeah. And he's there till Rachel, right? Yeah. And he's there till like midnight. Well, here's the like midnight. Well, here's the like midnight. Well, here's the interesting part. He wasn't planning to interesting part. He wasn't planning to interesting part. He wasn't planning to leave. He was actually sleeping shortly leave. He was actually sleeping shortly leave. He was actually sleeping shortly before he left. The only reason he left before he left. The only reason he left before he left. The only reason he left was because he got a call from his dad was because he got a call from his dad was because he got a call from his dad telling him to come home. telling him to come home. telling him to come home. What? Mhm. Wait, what? Like, why is he What? Mhm. Wait, what? Like, why is he What? Mhm. Wait, what? Like, why is he telling him to come home in the middle telling him to come home in the middle telling him to come home in the middle of the night of the night of the night on the same night that Rachel got on the same night that Rachel got on the same night that Rachel got murdered? There is no explanation in the murdered? There is no explanation in the murdered? There is no explanation in the police records that you could see, but police records that you could see, but police records that you could see, but we found one somewhere else. So, we found one somewhere else. So, we found one somewhere else. So, remember that woman, Jennifer, who went remember that woman, Jennifer, who went remember that woman, Jennifer, who went to church with Gary? to church with Gary? to church with Gary? >> The woman who gave us the scary Gary >> The woman who gave us the scary Gary >> The woman who gave us the scary Gary moniker, right?

moniker, right? moniker, right? >> Thank you, Jennifer. So, she said that >> Thank you, Jennifer. So, she said that >> Thank you, Jennifer. So, she said that Gary told the whole congregation why he Gary told the whole congregation why he Gary told the whole congregation why he called on the morning of June 5th at called on the morning of June 5th at called on the morning of June 5th at church. So, apparently Scary Gary showed church. So, apparently Scary Gary showed church. So, apparently Scary Gary showed up to church by himself, went up to the up to church by himself, went up to the up to church by himself, went up to the pulpit to, you're going to love this pulpit to, you're going to love this pulpit to, you're going to love this phrase, give testimony. phrase, give testimony. phrase, give testimony. And he allegedly said of the night And he allegedly said of the night And he allegedly said of the night before, quote, "I called JT to come home before, quote, "I called JT to come home before, quote, "I called JT to come home because the Holy Spirit told me so and because the Holy Spirit told me so and because the Holy Spirit told me so and it saved his life." End quote. So, so he it saved his life." End quote. So, so he it saved his life." End quote. So, so he called Jet home because he had some kind called Jet home because he had some kind called Jet home because he had some kind of revelation. of revelation. of revelation. >> That's what Jennifer said. Yeah. >> That's what Jennifer said. Yeah. >> That's what Jennifer said. Yeah. >> I still don't understand the reason for >> I still don't understand the reason for >> I still don't understand the reason for the call though. Like, did he just say the call though. Like, did he just say the call though. Like, did he just say come home and Jo is just so loyal to his come home and Jo is just so loyal to his come home and Jo is just so loyal to his dad still that he leaves no questions dad still that he leaves no questions dad still that he leaves no questions asked? Or was it something like I know asked? Or was it something like I know asked? Or was it something like I know something bad's gonna happen, get home, something bad's gonna happen, get home, something bad's gonna happen, get home, and then Joette just left his fiance to and then Joette just left his fiance to and then Joette just left his fiance to fend for herself. fend for herself. fend for herself. >> Like, and if that's it, like this would >> Like, and if that's it, like this would >> Like, and if that's it, like this would have been after an intruder had been have been after an intruder had been have been after an intruder had been there the night before change the lock, there the night before change the lock, there the night before change the lock, >> right? Like when she's already scared >> right? Like when she's already scared >> right? Like when she's already scared and like maybe needs someone there.

and like maybe needs someone there. and like maybe needs someone there. Also, if it's really the Holy Spirit Also, if it's really the Holy Spirit Also, if it's really the Holy Spirit speaking to Gary, speaking to Gary, speaking to Gary, why didn't he mention anything about why didn't he mention anything about why didn't he mention anything about Rachel? Literally, Jennifer said that Rachel? Literally, Jennifer said that Rachel? Literally, Jennifer said that she asked him that and he said, "I only she asked him that and he said, "I only she asked him that and he said, "I only received revelation about my son, not received revelation about my son, not received revelation about my son, not her." her." her." Yeah. Okay. Listen, the more Yeah. Okay. Listen, the more Yeah. Okay. Listen, the more conversations people at church had with conversations people at church had with conversations people at church had with Gary, the more suspicious they became of Gary, the more suspicious they became of Gary, the more suspicious they became of him. We haven't been able to corroborate him. We haven't been able to corroborate him. We haven't been able to corroborate this, but Jennifer said that many of the this, but Jennifer said that many of the this, but Jennifer said that many of the women in her ward called the police to women in her ward called the police to women in her ward called the police to report him acting strangely. report him acting strangely. report him acting strangely. >> So then that means the police looked >> So then that means the police looked >> So then that means the police looked into him. I mean, he's actually into him. I mean, he's actually into him. I mean, he's actually mentioned on the second page of the mentioned on the second page of the mentioned on the second page of the police chronology report from the night police chronology report from the night police chronology report from the night of Rachel's death, which in the timeline of Rachel's death, which in the timeline of Rachel's death, which in the timeline is before Rachel even had been is before Rachel even had been is before Rachel even had been pronounced dead. An officer noted the pronounced dead. An officer noted the pronounced dead. An officer noted the death threats from Gary that Rachel had death threats from Gary that Rachel had death threats from Gary that Rachel had reported weeks before. But get this, reported weeks before. But get this, reported weeks before. But get this, according to Kim and Ava, to this day, according to Kim and Ava, to this day, according to Kim and Ava, to this day, Gary has never been brought in for Gary has never been brought in for Gary has never been brought in for questioning. Now, Nicole asked like how questioning. Now, Nicole asked like how questioning. Now, Nicole asked like how they knew this, and Kim said that she they knew this, and Kim said that she they knew this, and Kim said that she had asked the chief of police face to had asked the chief of police face to had asked the chief of police face to face why Gary was never interviewed. And face why Gary was never interviewed. And face why Gary was never interviewed. And he said, "Because we can't force he said, "Because we can't force he said, "Because we can't force somebody to talk."

somebody to talk." somebody to talk." >> Have they tried? >> Have they tried? >> Have they tried? >> Kim said that the police told her that >> Kim said that the police told her that >> Kim said that the police told her that they left a phone message. They've tried they left a phone message. They've tried they left a phone message. They've tried to follow him. They've reached out in to follow him. They've reached out in to follow him. They've reached out in all these like different ways and he's all these like different ways and he's all these like different ways and he's just never responded. Much like, by the just never responded. Much like, by the just never responded. Much like, by the way, we reached out to him in all these way, we reached out to him in all these way, we reached out to him in all these different ways. And Gary has never different ways. And Gary has never different ways. And Gary has never responded to us. And we tried phone, responded to us. And we tried phone, responded to us. And we tried phone, mail, text. Nicole even stopped by his mail, text. Nicole even stopped by his mail, text. Nicole even stopped by his church in Gilbert, but we have not been church in Gilbert, but we have not been church in Gilbert, but we have not been able to make contact with him either. I able to make contact with him either. I able to make contact with him either. I mean, mean, mean, if you have nothing to hide, why not if you have nothing to hide, why not if you have nothing to hide, why not clear your name? Especially because clear your name? Especially because clear your name? Especially because according to Ava, Gary couldn't have according to Ava, Gary couldn't have according to Ava, Gary couldn't have been the one to pull the trigger. been the one to pull the trigger. been the one to pull the trigger. >> What do you mean? >> What do you mean? >> What do you mean? >> So, she told us that Gary was home with >> So, she told us that Gary was home with >> So, she told us that Gary was home with their daughter the night of the shooting their daughter the night of the shooting their daughter the night of the shooting >> all night. >> all night. >> all night. >> I don't know, but like that's what Ava >> I don't know, but like that's what Ava >> I don't know, but like that's what Ava told us. And listen, I don't think she told us. And listen, I don't think she told us. And listen, I don't think she has a reason to want to give this guy an has a reason to want to give this guy an has a reason to want to give this guy an alibi. So, I don't think she's covering alibi. So, I don't think she's covering alibi. So, I don't think she's covering for him. In fact, basically in the same for him. In fact, basically in the same for him. In fact, basically in the same breath, she was saying he couldn't have breath, she was saying he couldn't have breath, she was saying he couldn't have pulled the trigger, but she was also pulled the trigger, but she was also pulled the trigger, but she was also telling us that Gary had a history of telling us that Gary had a history of telling us that Gary had a history of talking about Hitman. And Jennifer from talking about Hitman. And Jennifer from talking about Hitman. And Jennifer from his church backs this up, too. They both his church backs this up, too. They both his church backs this up, too. They both told us that he would go around told us that he would go around told us that he would go around basically telling people that if you basically telling people that if you basically telling people that if you ever want to like off someone, the best ever want to like off someone, the best ever want to like off someone, the best thing to do would be to hire someone who thing to do would be to hire someone who thing to do would be to hire someone who is really hard to track and like the is really hard to track and like the is really hard to track and like the case would just be impossible to solve.

case would just be impossible to solve. case would just be impossible to solve. Cool. Cool. So, let me just play this Cool. Cool. So, let me just play this Cool. Cool. So, let me just play this out for a sec. out for a sec. out for a sec. If Gary hired someone to kill Rachel, If Gary hired someone to kill Rachel, If Gary hired someone to kill Rachel, where does the intruder the night before where does the intruder the night before where does the intruder the night before come in? come in? come in? >> All I can put together is that maybe the >> All I can put together is that maybe the >> All I can put together is that maybe the first night was like a trial run or like first night was like a trial run or like first night was like a trial run or like a super inexperienced hitman. a super inexperienced hitman. a super inexperienced hitman. >> Like one that would use a silencer but >> Like one that would use a silencer but >> Like one that would use a silencer but then kick down a door. then kick down a door. then kick down a door. >> Yeah. Like maybe I mean maybe the first >> Yeah. Like maybe I mean maybe the first >> Yeah. Like maybe I mean maybe the first one wasn't even like a hitman at all. one wasn't even like a hitman at all. one wasn't even like a hitman at all. Maybe the first one was someone Gary Maybe the first one was someone Gary Maybe the first one was someone Gary knew. Then like they go in, knew. Then like they go in, knew. Then like they go in, >> they realize they're not a hitman. >> they realize they're not a hitman. >> they realize they're not a hitman. >> Yeah. Rachel wakes up and they're like, >> Yeah. Rachel wakes up and they're like, >> Yeah. Rachel wakes up and they're like, "Yep." Yeah. In over my skis, "Yep." Yeah. In over my skis, "Yep." Yeah. In over my skis, >> but also brought pickles. >> but also brought pickles. >> but also brought pickles. >> Dude, the pickle. I am obsessed with the >> Dude, the pickle. I am obsessed with the >> Dude, the pickle. I am obsessed with the pickles. I was trying to look up like, pickles. I was trying to look up like, pickles. I was trying to look up like, "Was this a symbol? Like, what could "Was this a symbol? Like, what could "Was this a symbol? Like, what could this mean?" Like, I even made Nicole this mean?" Like, I even made Nicole this mean?" Like, I even made Nicole find out exactly what kind of pickles. find out exactly what kind of pickles. find out exactly what kind of pickles. Like, and Kim's like, "It's a medium Like, and Kim's like, "It's a medium Like, and Kim's like, "It's a medium sized standard jar of pickles. Kosher sized standard jar of pickles. Kosher sized standard jar of pickles. Kosher dill in case you were wondering." dill in case you were wondering." dill in case you were wondering." >> Got it. >> Got it. >> Got it. >> And it didn't look like they had been >> And it didn't look like they had been >> And it didn't look like they had been opened. opened. opened. >> Wait, so Kim saw the pickles herself? Oh >> Wait, so Kim saw the pickles herself? Oh >> Wait, so Kim saw the pickles herself? Oh my god, I haven't I have to tell you my god, I haven't I have to tell you my god, I haven't I have to tell you about this part. So, I think this about this part. So, I think this about this part. So, I think this encapsulates so well why Kim, Rachel's encapsulates so well why Kim, Rachel's encapsulates so well why Kim, Rachel's mom, has lost so much faith in the mom, has lost so much faith in the mom, has lost so much faith in the investigation and those leading it. So, investigation and those leading it. So, investigation and those leading it. So, Kim knew about the pickle jar because Kim knew about the pickle jar because Kim knew about the pickle jar because after that person came into Rachel's after that person came into Rachel's after that person came into Rachel's apartment the first night, apartment the first night, apartment the first night, >> she's like, "Hey, mom, this weird thing >> she's like, "Hey, mom, this weird thing >> she's like, "Hey, mom, this weird thing happened and also they left pickles."

happened and also they left pickles." happened and also they left pickles." >> Yeah, here's a super weird detail. Well, >> Yeah, here's a super weird detail. Well, >> Yeah, here's a super weird detail. Well, Kim said in the days after the shooting Kim said in the days after the shooting Kim said in the days after the shooting when her and Todd were told by police when her and Todd were told by police when her and Todd were told by police that they could finally go get Rachel's that they could finally go get Rachel's that they could finally go get Rachel's things from the apartment, they opened things from the apartment, they opened things from the apartment, they opened the door and the pickle jar is just like the door and the pickle jar is just like the door and the pickle jar is just like sitting right there on the counter. sitting right there on the counter. sitting right there on the counter. Police didn't collect it. Police didn't collect it. Police didn't collect it. >> I mean, Kim and Todd at the time assumed >> I mean, Kim and Todd at the time assumed >> I mean, Kim and Todd at the time assumed that they must have like at least like that they must have like at least like that they must have like at least like fingerprinted it or something cuz by fingerprinted it or something cuz by fingerprinted it or something cuz by then they told police the story of the then they told police the story of the then they told police the story of the person who came in the night before and person who came in the night before and person who came in the night before and left the pickles. Mhm. left the pickles. Mhm. left the pickles. Mhm. >> So, they're assuming police, you know, >> So, they're assuming police, you know, >> So, they're assuming police, you know, did the bare minimum. did the bare minimum. did the bare minimum. >> Yeah. Did Did their job, >> Yeah. Did Did their job, >> Yeah. Did Did their job, >> right? Like fingerprinted it to see what >> right? Like fingerprinted it to see what >> right? Like fingerprinted it to see what strange person was in her place, strange person was in her place, strange person was in her place, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> So, Kim just like took it home along >> So, Kim just like took it home along >> So, Kim just like took it home along with Rachel's clothing, which by the way with Rachel's clothing, which by the way with Rachel's clothing, which by the way was also left behind. And the jar sat in was also left behind. And the jar sat in was also left behind. And the jar sat in her garage for a while until she her garage for a while until she her garage for a while until she ultimately decided that it was time to ultimately decided that it was time to ultimately decided that it was time to throw it away. But Kim has come to throw it away. But Kim has come to throw it away. But Kim has come to regret that now because she told Nicole regret that now because she told Nicole regret that now because she told Nicole that in one recent conversation with that in one recent conversation with that in one recent conversation with police, she asked them about the pickle police, she asked them about the pickle police, she asked them about the pickle jar. And they looked right at her and jar. And they looked right at her and jar. And they looked right at her and they said, "What pickle jar?"

they said, "What pickle jar?" they said, "What pickle jar?" You've got to be kidding me. Nope. They You've got to be kidding me. Nope. They You've got to be kidding me. Nope. They said that they never saw a pickle jar. said that they never saw a pickle jar. said that they never saw a pickle jar. What do you mean never saw one? There What do you mean never saw one? There What do you mean never saw one? There was nothing else in the apartment. It was nothing else in the apartment. It was nothing else in the apartment. It was literally just her bed and pickles. was literally just her bed and pickles. was literally just her bed and pickles. >> Pickles, which this started to make us >> Pickles, which this started to make us >> Pickles, which this started to make us feel like maybe we were losing our minds feel like maybe we were losing our minds feel like maybe we were losing our minds or like the whole pickle thing got or like the whole pickle thing got or like the whole pickle thing got conflated with something else over the conflated with something else over the conflated with something else over the years. Like maybe people are mistaken. years. Like maybe people are mistaken. years. Like maybe people are mistaken. Like we just couldn't make sense of it. Like we just couldn't make sense of it. Like we just couldn't make sense of it. Why would you not take the one thing Why would you not take the one thing Why would you not take the one thing that might be evidence in an apartment that might be evidence in an apartment that might be evidence in an apartment where you have barely anything to work? where you have barely anything to work? where you have barely anything to work? >> Literally nothing. So, our amazing >> Literally nothing. So, our amazing >> Literally nothing. So, our amazing reporter Nicole combed through reporter Nicole combed through reporter Nicole combed through everything that we have from Gilbert PD everything that we have from Gilbert PD everything that we have from Gilbert PD files, blurred body cam footage, and files, blurred body cam footage, and files, blurred body cam footage, and there are no mention of Pickles at all, there are no mention of Pickles at all, there are no mention of Pickles at all, except except except God bless this tenacious little God bless this tenacious little God bless this tenacious little reporter. There is one barely audible, reporter. There is one barely audible, reporter. There is one barely audible, off-handed comment caught at the very off-handed comment caught at the very off-handed comment caught at the very end of one officer's police body cam as end of one officer's police body cam as end of one officer's police body cam as he's walking through Rachel's apartment.

he's walking through Rachel's apartment. he's walking through Rachel's apartment. And I've got it here for you to see. Very empty. Very empty. This one store was closed. >> All right. That's kind of weird. It's >> All right. That's kind of weird. It's kind of a weird thing to ask for, huh? No pickles. No pickles. No pickles. No pickles. No pickles. No pickles. No pickles. No pickles. Now, here's the tricky part. I don't Now, here's the tricky part. I don't Now, here's the tricky part. I don't know the date of this video, and Gilbert know the date of this video, and Gilbert know the date of this video, and Gilbert PD wouldn't give us the date, but it PD wouldn't give us the date, but it PD wouldn't give us the date, but it must have been after the Hansen's took must have been after the Hansen's took must have been after the Hansen's took the pickle jar home because Kim said the pickle jar home because Kim said the pickle jar home because Kim said that in the empty apartment, it was like that in the empty apartment, it was like that in the empty apartment, it was like impossible to miss. And yet, we're here.

impossible to miss. And yet, we're here. impossible to miss. And yet, we're here. Listen, I don't even know how important Listen, I don't even know how important Listen, I don't even know how important the pickle jar is to this investigation, the pickle jar is to this investigation, the pickle jar is to this investigation, but now we will never know. but now we will never know. but now we will never know. >> I mean, at the very least, it could have >> I mean, at the very least, it could have >> I mean, at the very least, it could have helped identify the first intruder. helped identify the first intruder. helped identify the first intruder. Yeah. And by the way, speaking of other Yeah. And by the way, speaking of other Yeah. And by the way, speaking of other identifiable things, when the shooter identifiable things, when the shooter identifiable things, when the shooter kicked in Rachel's bedroom door, they kicked in Rachel's bedroom door, they kicked in Rachel's bedroom door, they left a pretty clear partial shoe print. left a pretty clear partial shoe print. left a pretty clear partial shoe print. Like, did police do anything with that? Like, did police do anything with that? Like, did police do anything with that? I mean, they left the door there. They I mean, they left the door there. They I mean, they left the door there. They took it. took it. took it. >> So, I don't know. And listen, this is my >> So, I don't know. And listen, this is my >> So, I don't know. And listen, this is my call out to all the sneaker heads. Like, call out to all the sneaker heads. Like, call out to all the sneaker heads. Like, come out and tell me if you recognize come out and tell me if you recognize come out and tell me if you recognize this pattern on the door. But you can this pattern on the door. But you can this pattern on the door. But you can see like all of this, like this is what see like all of this, like this is what see like all of this, like this is what makes Kim worried that she'll never know makes Kim worried that she'll never know makes Kim worried that she'll never know who killed her daughter. Kim said who killed her daughter. Kim said who killed her daughter. Kim said Gilbert police told her that they have Gilbert police told her that they have Gilbert police told her that they have exhausted every lead. But even Justin, exhausted every lead. But even Justin, exhausted every lead. But even Justin, the PI doesn't know what Gilbert PD is the PI doesn't know what Gilbert PD is the PI doesn't know what Gilbert PD is up to, if anything. And he is probably up to, if anything. And he is probably up to, if anything. And he is probably the closest with the department of the closest with the department of the closest with the department of anyone that we spoke to. According to anyone that we spoke to. According to anyone that we spoke to. According to him, if this case is going to be solved, him, if this case is going to be solved, him, if this case is going to be solved, it's because someone courageous is going it's because someone courageous is going it's because someone courageous is going to come forward with information, which to come forward with information, which to come forward with information, which is why Kim wanted us to share Rachel's is why Kim wanted us to share Rachel's is why Kim wanted us to share Rachel's story with Crime Junkies. Coming up on 4 story with Crime Junkies. Coming up on 4 story with Crime Junkies. Coming up on 4 years, Kim's greatest fear is that years, Kim's greatest fear is that years, Kim's greatest fear is that Rachel's story will be forgotten. It's Rachel's story will be forgotten. It's Rachel's story will be forgotten. It's actually why she created Rachel's actually why she created Rachel's actually why she created Rachel's Rescue, which is a dog and puppy rescue Rescue, which is a dog and puppy rescue Rescue, which is a dog and puppy rescue in her daughter's memory to keep in her daughter's memory to keep in her daughter's memory to keep Rachel's story alive. We're actually Rachel's story alive. We're actually Rachel's story alive. We're actually going to link out to it in the show going to link out to it in the show going to link out to it in the show notes if you're in Arizona and looking notes if you're in Arizona and looking notes if you're in Arizona and looking for a new furry family member. Kim wants for a new furry family member. Kim wants for a new furry family member. Kim wants people to keep talking about Rachel, to people to keep talking about Rachel, to people to keep talking about Rachel, to know her case, and most importantly to know her case, and most importantly to know her case, and most importantly to speak up if they know something,

speak up if they know something, speak up if they know something, anything about her murder. So, if you anything about her murder. So, if you anything about her murder. So, if you have even the smallest bit of have even the smallest bit of have even the smallest bit of information that could help move information that could help move information that could help move Rachel's case in the right direction, Rachel's case in the right direction, Rachel's case in the right direction, listen, there are a lot of ways you can listen, there are a lot of ways you can listen, there are a lot of ways you can come forward. You can reach out to the come forward. You can reach out to the come forward. You can reach out to the Gilbert Police Department at Gilbert Police Department at Gilbert Police Department at 48-503-6500. Or if you want to remain anonymous, you Or if you want to remain anonymous, you can call Silent Witness 48-948-6377. There is a posted reward for information There is a posted reward for information that's now up to $20,000. that's now up to $20,000. that's now up to $20,000. And listen, if you feel more comfortable And listen, if you feel more comfortable And listen, if you feel more comfortable or have any trouble reaching Gilbert PD, or have any trouble reaching Gilbert PD, or have any trouble reaching Gilbert PD, you can reach out to Justin Yentis at you can reach out to Justin Yentis at you can reach out to Justin Yentis at Arizona Investigative Associates by Arizona Investigative Associates by Arizona Investigative Associates by calling 6022522474. You can find all the source material for You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, this episode on our website, this episode on our website, crimejunkkey.com. crimejunkkey.com. crimejunkkey.com. And you can follow us on Instagram at And you can follow us on Instagram at And you can follow us on Instagram at crimejunkie podcast. We'll be back next crimejunkie podcast. We'll be back next crimejunkie podcast. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Hi, crime junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Hi, crime junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. Flowers. Flowers. >> And I'm Brett.

>> And I'm Brett. >> And I'm Brett. >> And today's story begins on a Wednesday >> And today's story begins on a Wednesday >> And today's story begins on a Wednesday evening in May 2020. It's just before evening in May 2020. It's just before evening in May 2020. It's just before 5:30 p.m., and Alicia Cordova, is doing 5:30 p.m., and Alicia Cordova, is doing 5:30 p.m., and Alicia Cordova, is doing her dishes in her kitchen when her her dishes in her kitchen when her her dishes in her kitchen when her 5-year-old daughter, Capri, comes 5-year-old daughter, Capri, comes 5-year-old daughter, Capri, comes running in from the hallway saying, running in from the hallway saying, running in from the hallway saying, "Something's wrong with dad." Jan's mom, "Something's wrong with dad." Jan's mom, "Something's wrong with dad." Jan's mom, her iPod touch, saying that her and her her iPod touch, saying that her and her her iPod touch, saying that her and her brother were facetiming with their dad, brother were facetiming with their dad, brother were facetiming with their dad, 40-year-old Nick Cordova. But then all 40-year-old Nick Cordova. But then all 40-year-old Nick Cordova. But then all of a sudden, they heard a bang and their of a sudden, they heard a bang and their of a sudden, they heard a bang and their dad stopped responding. What Alicia saw dad stopped responding. What Alicia saw dad stopped responding. What Alicia saw and heard on that call has haunted her and heard on that call has haunted her and heard on that call has haunted her every day for the six years that she's every day for the six years that she's every day for the six years that she's been fighting to get her husband been fighting to get her husband been fighting to get her husband justice. And despite a mounting pile of justice. And despite a mounting pile of justice. And despite a mounting pile of circumstantial evidence that she has circumstantial evidence that she has circumstantial evidence that she has collected pointing to who might be collected pointing to who might be collected pointing to who might be responsible for his murder, no arrests responsible for his murder, no arrests responsible for his murder, no arrests or charges have ever been made in this or charges have ever been made in this or charges have ever been made in this case. Now it feels like the only way case. Now it feels like the only way case. Now it feels like the only way that this case will ever be solved is if that this case will ever be solved is if that this case will ever be solved is if we turn up the pressure on Gilbert we turn up the pressure on Gilbert we turn up the pressure on Gilbert Police Department. So, let's go, crime Police Department. So, let's go, crime Police Department. So, let's go, crime junkies. This is the story of Nick junkies. This is the story of Nick junkies. This is the story of Nick Cordova.

May 27th, 2020. 17 hours 30 minutes 36 May 27th, 2020. 17 hours 30 minutes 36 seconds. seconds. seconds. >> It's okay to breathe. >> It's okay to breathe. >> It's okay to breathe. >> Your emergency. >> Your emergency. >> Your emergency. >> Yes. So, someone I'm on FaceTime with my >> Yes. So, someone I'm on FaceTime with my >> Yes. So, someone I'm on FaceTime with my husband. My kids are FaceTiming and husband. My kids are FaceTiming and husband. My kids are FaceTiming and someone came in and started like beating someone came in and started like beating someone came in and started like beating him. I think they have your address. him. I think they have your address. him. I think they have your address. >> He's at Gilbert Air. Gilbert Air in um >> He's at Gilbert Air. Gilbert Air in um >> He's at Gilbert Air. Gilbert Air in um Gilbert Air. I don't even address right Gilbert Air. I don't even address right Gilbert Air. I don't even address right now. I'm freaking out. now. I'm freaking out. now. I'm freaking out. >> Is he at work? >> Is he at work? >> Is he at work? >> Yes, he's at work. His address is 511 >> Yes, he's at work. His address is 511 >> Yes, he's at work. His address is 511 West Guadalupe Road, number 13. West Guadalupe Road, number 13. West Guadalupe Road, number 13. >> Okay. 511 West Guadalupe Road. >> Okay. 511 West Guadalupe Road. >> Okay. 511 West Guadalupe Road. >> Yes. Nick, is he still there? >> Yes. Nick, is he still there? >> Yes. Nick, is he still there? >> I I can hear things moving around, but I >> I I can hear things moving around, but I >> I I can hear things moving around, but I don't hear see anyone. Dr. Get out of don't hear see anyone. Dr. Get out of don't hear see anyone. Dr. Get out of the room, please, babe. Nick. the room, please, babe. Nick. the room, please, babe. Nick. And you're calling from Scottsdale? And you're calling from Scottsdale? And you're calling from Scottsdale? >> I'm calling from Scottsdale. We were >> I'm calling from Scottsdale. We were >> I'm calling from Scottsdale. We were facetiming. My kids are facetiming him facetiming. My kids are facetiming him facetiming. My kids are facetiming him and then I just heard screaming. I and then I just heard screaming. I and then I just heard screaming. I thought it was a joke and someone thought it was a joke and someone thought it was a joke and someone somebody came in. somebody came in. somebody came in. >> Okay. This is your husband's work. And >> Okay. This is your husband's work. And >> Okay. This is your husband's work. And it's Gilbert Air. it's Gilbert Air. it's Gilbert Air. >> Yes, my husband's work. Gilbert Air. >> Yes, my husband's work. Gilbert Air. >> Yes, my husband's work. Gilbert Air. It's It's just him and his manager that It's It's just him and his manager that It's It's just him and his manager that worked there. But someone came in and I worked there. But someone came in and I worked there. But someone came in and I think they're just like beating him. I'm think they're just like beating him. I'm think they're just like beating him. I'm pretty sure I saw a gun. I still have pretty sure I saw a gun. I still have pretty sure I saw a gun. I still have him on FaceTime, but I can't see him on FaceTime, but I can't see him on FaceTime, but I can't see anything. Babe. Okay. Are you hearing anything. Babe. Okay. Are you hearing anything. Babe. Okay. Are you hearing anything? I just hear moaning. I don't anything? I just hear moaning. I don't anything? I just hear moaning. I don't know if it's him or the manager.

know if it's him or the manager. know if it's him or the manager. >> Okay, I've got I've got help on the way. >> Okay, I've got I've got help on the way. >> Okay, I've got I've got help on the way. Okay, Okay, Okay, >> please hurry. Hurry, hurry. >> please hurry. Hurry, hurry. >> please hurry. Hurry, hurry. >> The cops are coming, babe. >> The cops are coming, babe. >> The cops are coming, babe. >> How many people did you see in there? >> How many people did you see in there? >> How many people did you see in there? >> I didn't see anyone. I just saw like the >> I didn't see anyone. I just saw like the >> I didn't see anyone. I just saw like the the phone like rustling around and then the phone like rustling around and then the phone like rustling around and then I'm pretty sure I saw a black glove or I'm pretty sure I saw a black glove or I'm pretty sure I saw a black glove or gun above. I didn't hear any shots or gun above. I didn't hear any shots or gun above. I didn't hear any shots or anything though. I just I could hear him anything though. I just I could hear him anything though. I just I could hear him saying, "What?" like yelling, screaming. saying, "What?" like yelling, screaming. saying, "What?" like yelling, screaming. Someone was hitting him. Someone was hitting him. Someone was hitting him. >> Okay. My kids had their freaking phone >> Okay. My kids had their freaking phone >> Okay. My kids had their freaking phone and they saw it. and they saw it. and they saw it. >> Okay. All right. Who's there? Who is >> Okay. All right. Who's there? Who is >> Okay. All right. Who's there? Who is that? I'm on the phone. Who's on the that? I'm on the phone. Who's on the that? I'm on the phone. Who's on the phone? Who is that? phone? Who is that? phone? Who is that? >> They Who's there? >> They Who's there? >> They Who's there? Pick up the phone. Pick up the phone. Pick up the phone. >> David, who? Dave. >> David, who? Dave. >> David, who? Dave. Dave, pick up the phone. Dave, pick up the phone. Dave, pick up the phone. >> Got it. >> Got it. >> Got it. >> What is going on? Where is my husband? I >> What is going on? Where is my husband? I >> What is going on? Where is my husband? I have the police on the phone. >> You don't know who's here? >> You don't know who's here? >> Where's Nick?

>> Where's Nick? >> Where's Nick? >> Do you know who this gentleman is? >> Do you know who this gentleman is? >> Do you know who this gentleman is? >> He's He's not there. >> He's He's not there. >> He's He's not there. Someone came in. Someone came in. Someone came in. >> Is he okay? >> Is he okay? >> Is he okay? >> What's going on, Dave? >> What's going on, Dave? >> What's going on, Dave? >> Ma'am, tell me what's happening. Who is >> Ma'am, tell me what's happening. Who is >> Ma'am, tell me what's happening. Who is the guy you're talking to? the guy you're talking to? the guy you're talking to? >> His co-workers there. His partner. Oh my >> His co-workers there. His partner. Oh my >> His co-workers there. His partner. Oh my gosh. Is he okay? gosh. Is he okay? gosh. Is he okay? Dave, Dave, Dave, >> is that his coworker? >> is that his coworker? >> is that his coworker? >> Dave, tell me what's going on. Is he >> Dave, tell me what's going on. Is he >> Dave, tell me what's going on. Is he okay? okay? okay? >> Ma'am. >> Ma'am. >> Ma'am. >> Who is Dave? >> Who is Dave? >> Who is Dave? >> No. >> No. >> No. >> Can you please answer my question? >> Can you please answer my question? >> Can you please answer my question? >> Dave, Dave's his partner. Dave's his >> Dave, Dave's his partner. Dave's his >> Dave, Dave's his partner. Dave's his partner. He just came into the building. partner. He just came into the building. partner. He just came into the building. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. >> Okay. I need you to tell me what is >> Okay. I need you to tell me what is >> Okay. I need you to tell me what is happening. I've got officers on the way. happening. I've got officers on the way. happening. I've got officers on the way. >> I don't know. He's just saying, "Oh my >> I don't know. He's just saying, "Oh my >> I don't know. He's just saying, "Oh my god." He grabbed the phone and just god." He grabbed the phone and just god." He grabbed the phone and just said, "Oh my god." said, "Oh my god." said, "Oh my god." Dave, Dave, Dave, is he okay? Is he breathing? Dave, answer me. Dave, answer me. Dave, is he okay? Is he okay?

>> Dave, is going on? >> Dave, is going on? >> At this point, Alicia can't take all of >> At this point, Alicia can't take all of >> At this point, Alicia can't take all of this unraveling through a screen. So, this unraveling through a screen. So, this unraveling through a screen. So, keeping the FaceTime going, she tells keeping the FaceTime going, she tells keeping the FaceTime going, she tells her kids to get their shoes on and her kids to get their shoes on and her kids to get their shoes on and rushes them into the car to drive to rushes them into the car to drive to rushes them into the car to drive to Nick's office herself. During the Nick's office herself. During the Nick's office herself. During the 20-minute ride over, as she is hauling 20-minute ride over, as she is hauling 20-minute ride over, as she is hauling down the freeway, Alicia is calling her down the freeway, Alicia is calling her down the freeway, Alicia is calling her mom and then Nick's mom, who calls mom and then Nick's mom, who calls mom and then Nick's mom, who calls Nick's sister and Nick's nephew, Nick's sister and Nick's nephew, Nick's sister and Nick's nephew, everyone she can think of who needs to everyone she can think of who needs to everyone she can think of who needs to know that something is wrong. When she know that something is wrong. When she know that something is wrong. When she finally gets to the offices of Gilbert finally gets to the offices of Gilbert finally gets to the offices of Gilbert Air, the HVAC company that Nick owned Air, the HVAC company that Nick owned Air, the HVAC company that Nick owned with his partner Dave Sweetman, she with his partner Dave Sweetman, she with his partner Dave Sweetman, she parks her car behind some bushes, kind parks her car behind some bushes, kind parks her car behind some bushes, kind of like away from the building because of like away from the building because of like away from the building because at this point she is thinking that Nick at this point she is thinking that Nick at this point she is thinking that Nick might be hurt and she doesn't want her might be hurt and she doesn't want her might be hurt and she doesn't want her kids to see that if he comes out beat up kids to see that if he comes out beat up kids to see that if he comes out beat up or bleeding or something. So, she gives or bleeding or something. So, she gives or bleeding or something. So, she gives them her phone to play on, tells them to them her phone to play on, tells them to them her phone to play on, tells them to stay in the car, that their dad is stay in the car, that their dad is stay in the car, that their dad is strong, he's going to be fine, and then strong, he's going to be fine, and then strong, he's going to be fine, and then she belines it for the building. And she belines it for the building. And she belines it for the building. And that's when she sees the crime scene that's when she sees the crime scene that's when she sees the crime scene tape and what looks to her like a tape and what looks to her like a tape and what looks to her like a million police officers everywhere. And million police officers everywhere. And million police officers everywhere. And her first thought is to look around for her first thought is to look around for her first thought is to look around for ambulances. Like if Nick was attacked, ambulances. Like if Nick was attacked, ambulances. Like if Nick was attacked, they should be taking him to the they should be taking him to the they should be taking him to the hospital. But there isn't any ambulance hospital. But there isn't any ambulance hospital. But there isn't any ambulance in sight. And that's when Alicia starts in sight. And that's when Alicia starts in sight. And that's when Alicia starts running. She runs right through the running. She runs right through the running. She runs right through the yellow tape yelling, "Where is my yellow tape yelling, "Where is my yellow tape yelling, "Where is my husband? What happened?" and officers husband? What happened?" and officers husband? What happened?" and officers are trying to hold her back, but no one are trying to hold her back, but no one are trying to hold her back, but no one is answering her questions. She said she is answering her questions. She said she is answering her questions. She said she felt like she was standing there for 20 felt like she was standing there for 20 felt like she was standing there for 20 minutes just repeating, "What the minutes just repeating, "What the minutes just repeating, "What the happened?" And after what feels like a

happened?" And after what feels like a happened?" And after what feels like a lifetime, finally, an officer pulls her lifetime, finally, an officer pulls her lifetime, finally, an officer pulls her aside and delivers one line that will aside and delivers one line that will aside and delivers one line that will change the trajectory of her life change the trajectory of her life change the trajectory of her life forever. I'm sorry to tell you, your forever. I'm sorry to tell you, your forever. I'm sorry to tell you, your husband's dead. And that's when Alicia husband's dead. And that's when Alicia husband's dead. And that's when Alicia just loses it. She just falls to her just loses it. She just falls to her just loses it. She just falls to her knees crying uncontrollably knees crying uncontrollably knees crying uncontrollably and all while trying to make sure that and all while trying to make sure that and all while trying to make sure that her kids can't see her do it. Now, her kids can't see her do it. Now, her kids can't see her do it. Now, officers write in their reports that officers write in their reports that officers write in their reports that Alicia is inconsolable and in disbelief Alicia is inconsolable and in disbelief Alicia is inconsolable and in disbelief of the situation. But even in her state, of the situation. But even in her state, of the situation. But even in her state, she has the wherewithal to ask one she has the wherewithal to ask one she has the wherewithal to ask one question. question. question. Where is Dave? Where is Dave? Where is Dave? >> Is Dave still alive? >> Is Dave still alive? >> Is Dave still alive? >> No. Yeah, he is. But the way that they >> No. Yeah, he is. But the way that they >> No. Yeah, he is. But the way that they encountered Dave and honestly the whole encountered Dave and honestly the whole encountered Dave and honestly the whole scene is really bizarre. So according to scene is really bizarre. So according to scene is really bizarre. So according to the police file, when a Gilbert police the police file, when a Gilbert police the police file, when a Gilbert police officer arrived, the first thing he saw officer arrived, the first thing he saw officer arrived, the first thing he saw as he walked up to the front door was as he walked up to the front door was as he walked up to the front door was someone like peeking through the blinds someone like peeking through the blinds someone like peeking through the blinds of the office window. And as the officer of the office window. And as the officer of the office window. And as the officer got closer with his weapon at the ready, got closer with his weapon at the ready, got closer with his weapon at the ready, he heard a man saying through the window he heard a man saying through the window he heard a man saying through the window like, "I'm Dave. I'm Dave." So, the like, "I'm Dave. I'm Dave." So, the like, "I'm Dave. I'm Dave." So, the officer ordered Dave to open the door officer ordered Dave to open the door officer ordered Dave to open the door and come out. But instead, Dave barely and come out. But instead, Dave barely and come out. But instead, Dave barely opens it, hands the officer a bloody gun opens it, hands the officer a bloody gun opens it, hands the officer a bloody gun by the barrel, and said, "I'm his by the barrel, and said, "I'm his by the barrel, and said, "I'm his partner. That's my gun. I'm sorry. Oh my partner. That's my gun. I'm sorry. Oh my partner. That's my gun. I'm sorry. Oh my god." Now, the officer put the gun on god." Now, the officer put the gun on god." Now, the officer put the gun on the ground outside and then tried to the ground outside and then tried to the ground outside and then tried to open the front door to walk in, but it open the front door to walk in, but it open the front door to walk in, but it wouldn't budge.

wouldn't budge. wouldn't budge. >> Is Dave blocking them from coming in? >> Is Dave blocking them from coming in? >> Is Dave blocking them from coming in? >> No, Dave's not blocking them. Nick >> No, Dave's not blocking them. Nick >> No, Dave's not blocking them. Nick actually was. He he his body was lying actually was. He he his body was lying actually was. He he his body was lying on the floor on his side with a pool of on the floor on his side with a pool of on the floor on his side with a pool of blood around him completely unresponsive blood around him completely unresponsive blood around him completely unresponsive and he had blood all over his face and and he had blood all over his face and and he had blood all over his face and it looked like there was a bullet hole it looked like there was a bullet hole it looked like there was a bullet hole in his left cheek. Now I don't know what in his left cheek. Now I don't know what in his left cheek. Now I don't know what protocol is when you need to get inside protocol is when you need to get inside protocol is when you need to get inside a crime scene and something at the scene a crime scene and something at the scene a crime scene and something at the scene itself is preventing that. Personally, I itself is preventing that. Personally, I itself is preventing that. Personally, I don't know. I might have tried to find don't know. I might have tried to find don't know. I might have tried to find another entrance. This officer though another entrance. This officer though another entrance. This officer though decided to just push through the door decided to just push through the door decided to just push through the door until Nick's body moved enough for him until Nick's body moved enough for him until Nick's body moved enough for him to squeeze through. And once he's in, he to squeeze through. And once he's in, he to squeeze through. And once he's in, he saw a clear sign there of a struggle. saw a clear sign there of a struggle. saw a clear sign there of a struggle. So, just to give you a picture, when you So, just to give you a picture, when you So, just to give you a picture, when you enter the front door of the office, you enter the front door of the office, you enter the front door of the office, you walk into this little lobby space, and walk into this little lobby space, and walk into this little lobby space, and it has like a reception desk. From it has like a reception desk. From it has like a reception desk. From there, if you go through the first there, if you go through the first there, if you go through the first doorway on the left, you can get to the doorway on the left, you can get to the doorway on the left, you can get to the office space where Nick and Dave's desks office space where Nick and Dave's desks office space where Nick and Dave's desks were. Now, Nick's desk, when you walk were. Now, Nick's desk, when you walk were. Now, Nick's desk, when you walk through that entryway, it was the first through that entryway, it was the first through that entryway, it was the first one beyond the doorway, and Dave was one beyond the doorway, and Dave was one beyond the doorway, and Dave was about 12 feet away near the far wall.

about 12 feet away near the far wall. about 12 feet away near the far wall. Now, according to the police report, Now, according to the police report, Now, according to the police report, Nick's desk had been pushed out of Nick's desk had been pushed out of Nick's desk had been pushed out of place, which they can tell from like the place, which they can tell from like the place, which they can tell from like the indents that were in the carpet. indents that were in the carpet. indents that were in the carpet. >> And there are just these things strewn >> And there are just these things strewn >> And there are just these things strewn all over the floor, like Nick's monitor. all over the floor, like Nick's monitor. all over the floor, like Nick's monitor. There's money, business cards, this There's money, business cards, this There's money, business cards, this black electrical box, a bag of what they black electrical box, a bag of what they black electrical box, a bag of what they report looks like contraband. They find report looks like contraband. They find report looks like contraband. They find a human tooth, a potato with a hole a human tooth, a potato with a hole a human tooth, a potato with a hole gouged out of one side. And I've seen gouged out of one side. And I've seen gouged out of one side. And I've seen people online actually take to assuming people online actually take to assuming people online actually take to assuming that maybe that potato was like used as that maybe that potato was like used as that maybe that potato was like used as a silencer, but that is not stated a silencer, but that is not stated a silencer, but that is not stated anywhere in the police report. But there anywhere in the police report. But there anywhere in the police report. But there are multiple bullet holes around the are multiple bullet holes around the are multiple bullet holes around the room. So there is one above the light room. So there is one above the light room. So there is one above the light switch. There's another in the lobby switch. There's another in the lobby switch. There's another in the lobby desk. And then the window frame behind desk. And then the window frame behind desk. And then the window frame behind Nick's desk has one as well. Now, I Nick's desk has one as well. Now, I Nick's desk has one as well. Now, I mentioned money. There is some money by mentioned money. There is some money by mentioned money. There is some money by Dave's desk, too. though his desk itself Dave's desk, too. though his desk itself Dave's desk, too. though his desk itself appears quote not to have been disrupted appears quote not to have been disrupted appears quote not to have been disrupted by the struggle. But the bottom right by the struggle. But the bottom right by the struggle. But the bottom right drawer is open and inside of it is an drawer is open and inside of it is an drawer is open and inside of it is an empty handgun case and an empty empty handgun case and an empty empty handgun case and an empty magazine. magazine. magazine. >> So I hate to repeat her question, but >> So I hate to repeat her question, but >> So I hate to repeat her question, but I'm going to ask exactly what Alicia I'm going to ask exactly what Alicia I'm going to ask exactly what Alicia asked. Where is Dave?

asked. Where is Dave? asked. Where is Dave? >> Well, while one officer was getting his >> Well, while one officer was getting his >> Well, while one officer was getting his bearings, Dave was quote acting bearings, Dave was quote acting bearings, Dave was quote acting hysterical and pacing back and forth. hysterical and pacing back and forth. hysterical and pacing back and forth. So, I mean, right then and there, So, I mean, right then and there, So, I mean, right then and there, another officer actually detained him another officer actually detained him another officer actually detained him and put him in cuffs. And it's in that and put him in cuffs. And it's in that and put him in cuffs. And it's in that moment that Dave spoke up again and he moment that Dave spoke up again and he moment that Dave spoke up again and he said, quote, "I'm his partner. Two guys said, quote, "I'm his partner. Two guys said, quote, "I'm his partner. Two guys came in here. Two guys came in here. came in here. Two guys came in here. came in here. Two guys came in here. They left. They ran." End quote. They left. They ran." End quote. They left. They ran." End quote. >> So, Dave's incuff. Is he being arrested? >> So, Dave's incuff. Is he being arrested? >> So, Dave's incuff. Is he being arrested? >> No. The officer specifically informed >> No. The officer specifically informed >> No. The officer specifically informed Dave that he was not under arrest. He Dave that he was not under arrest. He Dave that he was not under arrest. He was just being detained for questioning. was just being detained for questioning. was just being detained for questioning. And right there at the scene, Dave is And right there at the scene, Dave is And right there at the scene, Dave is mirandized and he gives kind of this mirandized and he gives kind of this mirandized and he gives kind of this hasty interview and he says basically he hasty interview and he says basically he hasty interview and he says basically he was at his desk when two Hispanic men was at his desk when two Hispanic men was at his desk when two Hispanic men wearing green shirts and face masks came wearing green shirts and face masks came wearing green shirts and face masks came into the building trying to sell Nick into the building trying to sell Nick into the building trying to sell Nick Freon, which do you know what Freon is? Freon, which do you know what Freon is? Freon, which do you know what Freon is? >> Yeah, it's used in like older air >> Yeah, it's used in like older air >> Yeah, it's used in like older air conditioning units, right? conditioning units, right? conditioning units, right? >> I Yes, I did not know what Freon is. I >> I Yes, I did not know what Freon is. I >> I Yes, I did not know what Freon is. I had to look it up, but you're totally had to look it up, but you're totally had to look it up, but you're totally right. So, it's something that could be right. So, it's something that could be right. So, it's something that could be common like or at least could be common common like or at least could be common common like or at least could be common to sell in an HVAC world. But what I to sell in an HVAC world. But what I to sell in an HVAC world. But what I found out was Gilbert Air definitely found out was Gilbert Air definitely found out was Gilbert Air definitely didn't buy Freon like that. But Dave didn't buy Freon like that. But Dave didn't buy Freon like that. But Dave said that for some reason it looked like said that for some reason it looked like said that for some reason it looked like Nick knew these guys Nick knew these guys Nick knew these guys >> knew these guys in masks.

>> knew these guys in masks. >> knew these guys in masks. >> Well, when I say masks, I thought the >> Well, when I say masks, I thought the >> Well, when I say masks, I thought the same thing, but these were co masks, not same thing, but these were co masks, not same thing, but these were co masks, not like ski mask. So like like ski mask. So like like ski mask. So like >> this happening like May 2020, right? >> this happening like May 2020, right? >> this happening like May 2020, right? >> Exactly. So I think you can kind of see >> Exactly. So I think you can kind of see >> Exactly. So I think you can kind of see a phase where you could recognize a phase where you could recognize a phase where you could recognize someone. Anyway, Dave says that the men someone. Anyway, Dave says that the men someone. Anyway, Dave says that the men said something to Nick and then there said something to Nick and then there said something to Nick and then there was some kind of commotion and then they was some kind of commotion and then they was some kind of commotion and then they turned to Dave and started pointing turned to Dave and started pointing turned to Dave and started pointing their guns at him. So Dave says he gave their guns at him. So Dave says he gave their guns at him. So Dave says he gave them his wallet and gave them the money them his wallet and gave them the money them his wallet and gave them the money in his pocket. Quote, "Everything he had in his pocket. Quote, "Everything he had in his pocket. Quote, "Everything he had and then the men hit him in the back of and then the men hit him in the back of and then the men hit him in the back of the head with what Dave thought was one the head with what Dave thought was one the head with what Dave thought was one of their guns and then they fled the of their guns and then they fled the of their guns and then they fled the scene." scene." scene." >> Wait, so when was Nick shot then? >> Wait, so when was Nick shot then? >> Wait, so when was Nick shot then? >> Well, Dave says he doesn't know. Says >> Well, Dave says he doesn't know. Says >> Well, Dave says he doesn't know. Says that he never even heard a gunshot. Did that he never even heard a gunshot. Did that he never even heard a gunshot. Did they knock him unconscious? they knock him unconscious? they knock him unconscious? >> He He doesn't know. He's just like He's >> He He doesn't know. He's just like He's >> He He doesn't know. He's just like He's just basically saying he doesn't just basically saying he doesn't just basically saying he doesn't remember much after he got hit in the remember much after he got hit in the remember much after he got hit in the head. Now, aside from Dave, there was no head. Now, aside from Dave, there was no head. Now, aside from Dave, there was no one else in the office at the time of one else in the office at the time of one else in the office at the time of the shooting. The office manager who the shooting. The office manager who the shooting. The office manager who worked there, Lynn, she gets to the worked there, Lynn, she gets to the worked there, Lynn, she gets to the scene once she gets word about scene once she gets word about scene once she gets word about everything that's going on, and she everything that's going on, and she everything that's going on, and she tells police that when she left work tells police that when she left work tells police that when she left work that day at around 5:00, only Nick and that day at around 5:00, only Nick and that day at around 5:00, only Nick and Dave were inside. But she knows what Dave were inside. But she knows what Dave were inside. But she knows what Alicia and Dave all know, that there are Alicia and Dave all know, that there are Alicia and Dave all know, that there are several surveillance cameras inside the several surveillance cameras inside the several surveillance cameras inside the building, which Dave says should have building, which Dave says should have building, which Dave says should have recorded everything. So, while Gilbert recorded everything. So, while Gilbert recorded everything. So, while Gilbert PD sends an analyst to the scene to PD sends an analyst to the scene to PD sends an analyst to the scene to review that footage, an officer escorts review that footage, an officer escorts review that footage, an officer escorts Dave to a patrol car so they can do a Dave to a patrol car so they can do a Dave to a patrol car so they can do a more formal interview with him down at more formal interview with him down at more formal interview with him down at the station. But right about then comes the station. But right about then comes the station. But right about then comes the first sign that something might be the first sign that something might be the first sign that something might be off. Because remember how Dave said that

off. Because remember how Dave said that off. Because remember how Dave said that he gave the intruders his wallet and his he gave the intruders his wallet and his he gave the intruders his wallet and his money and his pockets and money and his pockets and money and his pockets and >> Yeah. He said he gave them like >> Yeah. He said he gave them like >> Yeah. He said he gave them like everything he had. Right. everything he had. Right. everything he had. Right. >> Exactly. Well, imagine this officer's >> Exactly. Well, imagine this officer's >> Exactly. Well, imagine this officer's surprise when he's patting Dave down and surprise when he's patting Dave down and surprise when he's patting Dave down and finds more than $1,000 cash in his front finds more than $1,000 cash in his front finds more than $1,000 cash in his front left pocket. Some cases fade from headlines. Some Some cases fade from headlines. Some never made it there to begin with. I'm never made it there to begin with. I'm never made it there to begin with. I'm Ashley Flowers and on my podcast, The Ashley Flowers and on my podcast, The Ashley Flowers and on my podcast, The Deck, I tell you the stories of cold Deck, I tell you the stories of cold Deck, I tell you the stories of cold cases featured on playing cards cases featured on playing cards cases featured on playing cards distributed in prisons designed to spark distributed in prisons designed to spark distributed in prisons designed to spark new leads and bring long overdue new leads and bring long overdue new leads and bring long overdue justice. Because these stories deserve justice. Because these stories deserve justice. Because these stories deserve to be heard, and the loved ones of these to be heard, and the loved ones of these to be heard, and the loved ones of these victims still deserve answers. Are you victims still deserve answers. Are you victims still deserve answers. Are you ready to be dealt in? Listen to the deck ready to be dealt in? Listen to the deck ready to be dealt in? Listen to the deck now, wherever you get your podcasts. When Dave is confronted with the fact When Dave is confronted with the fact that his story is already crumbling, he that his story is already crumbling, he that his story is already crumbling, he clarifies to the officer, "No, they clarifies to the officer, "No, they clarifies to the officer, "No, they didn't take all my money. I only gave didn't take all my money. I only gave didn't take all my money. I only gave the suspects the money in my front right the suspects the money in my front right the suspects the money in my front right pocket."

pocket." pocket." >> But that's not what everything I have >> But that's not what everything I have >> But that's not what everything I have means. means. means. >> Definitely not. >> Definitely not. >> Definitely not. >> And how much cash is this guy keeping in >> And how much cash is this guy keeping in >> And how much cash is this guy keeping in like all the pockets of his pants? I like all the pockets of his pants? I like all the pockets of his pants? I think that would have been a great think that would have been a great think that would have been a great follow-up question to ask, but I don't follow-up question to ask, but I don't follow-up question to ask, but I don't see that being asked in the records that see that being asked in the records that see that being asked in the records that I have. So Dave gets driven down to the I have. So Dave gets driven down to the I have. So Dave gets driven down to the station and just after 700 p.m. that's station and just after 700 p.m. that's station and just after 700 p.m. that's when he's interviewed. And his story now when he's interviewed. And his story now when he's interviewed. And his story now is this. It was a robbery gone wrong. is this. It was a robbery gone wrong. is this. It was a robbery gone wrong. Dave says that he was getting ready to Dave says that he was getting ready to Dave says that he was getting ready to leave work when the crime took place. So leave work when the crime took place. So leave work when the crime took place. So he says he sees Nick on the phone as he says he sees Nick on the phone as he says he sees Nick on the phone as he's walking towards the exit, waves, he's walking towards the exit, waves, he's walking towards the exit, waves, gives him a fist bump as bros are known gives him a fist bump as bros are known gives him a fist bump as bros are known to do to do to do >> naturally. But then when Dave got to the >> naturally. But then when Dave got to the >> naturally. But then when Dave got to the front door, he realized that he had like front door, he realized that he had like front door, he realized that he had like forgotten a bill on his desk or forgotten a bill on his desk or forgotten a bill on his desk or something. So he turned around and then something. So he turned around and then something. So he turned around and then just as he started looking for this just as he started looking for this just as he started looking for this thing on his desk, he heard the front thing on his desk, he heard the front thing on his desk, he heard the front door chime. And then he looked up and door chime. And then he looked up and door chime. And then he looked up and saw the two men. One of them, he says, saw the two men. One of them, he says, saw the two men. One of them, he says, approached Nick with what looked like a approached Nick with what looked like a approached Nick with what looked like a box of Freon. And then the yelling and box of Freon. And then the yelling and box of Freon. And then the yelling and fighting started. David looked up from fighting started. David looked up from fighting started. David looked up from his desk, saw one of the men coming his desk, saw one of the men coming his desk, saw one of the men coming toward him with a gun pointed at him.

toward him with a gun pointed at him. toward him with a gun pointed at him. And then Dave says that the man told him And then Dave says that the man told him And then Dave says that the man told him to get on the ground and give him his to get on the ground and give him his to get on the ground and give him his money, which Dave did money, which Dave did money, which Dave did >> kind of >> kind of >> kind of >> kind of. And then the man hits Dave on >> kind of. And then the man hits Dave on >> kind of. And then the man hits Dave on the head, which he says might have the head, which he says might have the head, which he says might have knocked him unconscious because then he knocked him unconscious because then he knocked him unconscious because then he really doesn't remember anything after really doesn't remember anything after really doesn't remember anything after that. And listen, officers do find that that. And listen, officers do find that that. And listen, officers do find that Dave has a cut on his right hand and a Dave has a cut on his right hand and a Dave has a cut on his right hand and a lump on the right side of his head. lump on the right side of his head. lump on the right side of his head. >> So then Dave had to have been >> So then Dave had to have been >> So then Dave had to have been unconscious when Nick was shot. unconscious when Nick was shot. unconscious when Nick was shot. >> Well, except his story keeps going. Now, >> Well, except his story keeps going. Now, >> Well, except his story keeps going. Now, he says that he heard Nick in a struggle he says that he heard Nick in a struggle he says that he heard Nick in a struggle and then he also heard a loud bang, but and then he also heard a loud bang, but and then he also heard a loud bang, but that he didn't see anything because all that he didn't see anything because all that he didn't see anything because all of his focus was on the guy that was of his focus was on the guy that was of his focus was on the guy that was robbing him. And he says he really came robbing him. And he says he really came robbing him. And he says he really came to again when he heard Alicia yelling to again when he heard Alicia yelling to again when he heard Alicia yelling for Nick through the FaceTime call. He for Nick through the FaceTime call. He for Nick through the FaceTime call. He could see and hear Alicia, but he wasn't could see and hear Alicia, but he wasn't could see and hear Alicia, but he wasn't sure if she could see or hear him. So, sure if she could see or hear him. So, sure if she could see or hear him. So, holding the phone, Dave walked out to holding the phone, Dave walked out to holding the phone, Dave walked out to the lobby where he found Nick shot and the lobby where he found Nick shot and the lobby where he found Nick shot and bleeding. He says he put the phone down bleeding. He says he put the phone down bleeding. He says he put the phone down to check Nick for signs of life, but got to check Nick for signs of life, but got to check Nick for signs of life, but got nothing. And that's when he says he went nothing. And that's when he says he went nothing. And that's when he says he went back to his desk to get his handgun and back to his desk to get his handgun and back to his desk to get his handgun and check for suspects in the rest of the check for suspects in the rest of the check for suspects in the rest of the building. And when he got back to the building. And when he got back to the building. And when he got back to the lobby, that's when first responders lobby, that's when first responders lobby, that's when first responders arrived and he handed them his now arrived and he handed them his now arrived and he handed them his now bloodied gun through the crack of the bloodied gun through the crack of the bloodied gun through the crack of the door. Now, Dave says he didn't notice door. Now, Dave says he didn't notice door. Now, Dave says he didn't notice anything distinguishable about the anything distinguishable about the anything distinguishable about the suspects who robbed him other than the suspects who robbed him other than the suspects who robbed him other than the fact that one's gun was quote big and fact that one's gun was quote big and fact that one's gun was quote big and black and it made him follow the black and it made him follow the black and it made him follow the suspect's orders.

suspect's orders. suspect's orders. >> And what's Dave's gun look like? >> And what's Dave's gun look like? >> And what's Dave's gun look like? >> It's a 9mm Sig sour that he says he got >> It's a 9mm Sig sour that he says he got >> It's a 9mm Sig sour that he says he got a month ago as a result of this child a month ago as a result of this child a month ago as a result of this child custody issue he was having with a woman custody issue he was having with a woman custody issue he was having with a woman who I guess he had previously had an who I guess he had previously had an who I guess he had previously had an affair with this woman. They had a affair with this woman. They had a affair with this woman. They had a child. We tried reaching out to her. She child. We tried reaching out to her. She child. We tried reaching out to her. She declined to speak with us because the declined to speak with us because the declined to speak with us because the custody battle that he quote unquote got custody battle that he quote unquote got custody battle that he quote unquote got this gun for was actually still ongoing this gun for was actually still ongoing this gun for was actually still ongoing >> like now like 6 years later. >> like now like 6 years later. >> like now like 6 years later. >> Yeah. Still in in the custody battle 6 >> Yeah. Still in in the custody battle 6 >> Yeah. Still in in the custody battle 6 years later. Now Dave says that he years later. Now Dave says that he years later. Now Dave says that he always kept his gun in that desk drawer always kept his gun in that desk drawer always kept his gun in that desk drawer and he has never fired it. Not even and he has never fired it. Not even and he has never fired it. Not even today. But that day in the office he had today. But that day in the office he had today. But that day in the office he had chambered around while he was checking chambered around while he was checking chambered around while he was checking the place for suspects. the place for suspects. the place for suspects. >> Okay. So you mentioned it before. or I >> Okay. So you mentioned it before. or I >> Okay. So you mentioned it before. or I have to bring it up. Just give it to me. have to bring it up. Just give it to me. have to bring it up. Just give it to me. What's on the surveillance videos? What's on the surveillance videos? What's on the surveillance videos? Because like they should be able to tell Because like they should be able to tell Because like they should be able to tell us if his story is like lines up with us if his story is like lines up with us if his story is like lines up with that, right? One would think because that, right? One would think because that, right? One would think because there are surveillance cameras basically there are surveillance cameras basically there are surveillance cameras basically all over this building. The lobby's got all over this building. The lobby's got all over this building. The lobby's got one. The warehouse, even the outside, one. The warehouse, even the outside, one. The warehouse, even the outside, the one place that doesn't have a camera the one place that doesn't have a camera the one place that doesn't have a camera is the office space where, according to is the office space where, according to is the office space where, according to Dave, the struggle took place.

Dave, the struggle took place. Dave, the struggle took place. >> Why? >> Why? >> Why? >> I don't know. We asked Alicia, Nick's >> I don't know. We asked Alicia, Nick's >> I don't know. We asked Alicia, Nick's wife, and she said she had no idea. But wife, and she said she had no idea. But wife, and she said she had no idea. But even she thought it was kind of odd. even she thought it was kind of odd. even she thought it was kind of odd. That's the one place that didn't have a That's the one place that didn't have a That's the one place that didn't have a camera. But listen, the cameras that do camera. But listen, the cameras that do camera. But listen, the cameras that do exist might be able to confirm some exist might be able to confirm some exist might be able to confirm some things. Officers at the crime scene things. Officers at the crime scene things. Officers at the crime scene start reviewing the tapes like within start reviewing the tapes like within start reviewing the tapes like within hours of being called to the scene. And hours of being called to the scene. And hours of being called to the scene. And they mostly do corroborate Dave's story. they mostly do corroborate Dave's story. they mostly do corroborate Dave's story. Two suspects entered the building. One Two suspects entered the building. One Two suspects entered the building. One was holding a box of Freon, but they're was holding a box of Freon, but they're was holding a box of Freon, but they're actually on this footage able to see actually on this footage able to see actually on this footage able to see that the box was empty. It had some kind that the box was empty. It had some kind that the box was empty. It had some kind of panel cut out of it, and they were of panel cut out of it, and they were of panel cut out of it, and they were using it to conceal the gun when they using it to conceal the gun when they using it to conceal the gun when they first came in. And they see that there first came in. And they see that there first came in. And they see that there is some kind of commotion and yelling is some kind of commotion and yelling is some kind of commotion and yelling that can be heard off camera, presumably that can be heard off camera, presumably that can be heard off camera, presumably in the office. And then Nick is seen in the office. And then Nick is seen in the office. And then Nick is seen running out of the office into the lobby running out of the office into the lobby running out of the office into the lobby toward the front door, and that's where toward the front door, and that's where toward the front door, and that's where he ends up getting shot. Can you see the he ends up getting shot. Can you see the he ends up getting shot. Can you see the shooter? You can because he shoots Nick shooter? You can because he shoots Nick shooter? You can because he shoots Nick in the lobby right in view of the in the lobby right in view of the in the lobby right in view of the cameras. Officers also note that right cameras. Officers also note that right cameras. Officers also note that right after the shooting, they can hear Dave after the shooting, they can hear Dave after the shooting, they can hear Dave saying, "Help me." Off camera. Now, the saying, "Help me." Off camera. Now, the saying, "Help me." Off camera. Now, the outdoor camera then shows these two outdoor camera then shows these two outdoor camera then shows these two suspects like leaving, driving away from suspects like leaving, driving away from suspects like leaving, driving away from the scene right at 5:31 p.m., and they the scene right at 5:31 p.m., and they the scene right at 5:31 p.m., and they are in a red and silver Ford F-150. It are in a red and silver Ford F-150. It are in a red and silver Ford F-150. It has no front license plate, of course.

has no front license plate, of course. has no front license plate, of course. And I asked like what year it was. It And I asked like what year it was. It And I asked like what year it was. It looks like it was like pre203, looks like it was like pre203, looks like it was like pre203, so a little bit older for the time. And so a little bit older for the time. And so a little bit older for the time. And there is faded paint on the roof of it. there is faded paint on the roof of it. there is faded paint on the roof of it. I just don't know the exact year, but I just don't know the exact year, but I just don't know the exact year, but this is like an older older model. So, this is like an older older model. So, this is like an older older model. So, based on these videos, Dave was telling based on these videos, Dave was telling based on these videos, Dave was telling the truth. the truth. the truth. >> Yeah. At this point, investigators write >> Yeah. At this point, investigators write >> Yeah. At this point, investigators write in the file that after seeing the in the file that after seeing the in the file that after seeing the surveillance footage, they no longer surveillance footage, they no longer surveillance footage, they no longer suspect Dave in the homicide. However, suspect Dave in the homicide. However, suspect Dave in the homicide. However, quote, "His involvement remains quote, "His involvement remains quote, "His involvement remains unclear." end quote. unclear." end quote. unclear." end quote. >> Meaning what? They did not elaborate. I >> Meaning what? They did not elaborate. I >> Meaning what? They did not elaborate. I mean, I'm assuming they don't believe mean, I'm assuming they don't believe mean, I'm assuming they don't believe that he shot the gun, but maybe they are that he shot the gun, but maybe they are that he shot the gun, but maybe they are not eliminating the possibility that he not eliminating the possibility that he not eliminating the possibility that he was involved in some other way, was involved in some other way, was involved in some other way, >> which like makes sense, right? Like why >> which like makes sense, right? Like why >> which like makes sense, right? Like why else would you lie about the money in else would you lie about the money in else would you lie about the money in your pocket? Like there's just like your pocket? Like there's just like your pocket? Like there's just like that's weird, right? that's weird, right? that's weird, right? >> Yes, I have left something out. So, >> Yes, I have left something out. So, >> Yes, I have left something out. So, there is another red flag, too. When there is another red flag, too. When there is another red flag, too. When Alicia was first told that her husband Alicia was first told that her husband Alicia was first told that her husband was dead, she didn't just ask, "Where's was dead, she didn't just ask, "Where's was dead, she didn't just ask, "Where's Dave?" her full sentence to police was, Dave?" her full sentence to police was, Dave?" her full sentence to police was, "Where's Dave?" He probably had "Where's Dave?" He probably had "Where's Dave?" He probably had something to do with this. When she was something to do with this. When she was something to do with this. When she was able to be interviewed that day on the able to be interviewed that day on the able to be interviewed that day on the scene, she elaborated on why that was scene, she elaborated on why that was scene, she elaborated on why that was her first thought. And when our reporter her first thought. And when our reporter her first thought. And when our reporter Nicole Kagan spoke to Alicia this year, Nicole Kagan spoke to Alicia this year, Nicole Kagan spoke to Alicia this year, she gave us the full backstory. So she gave us the full backstory. So she gave us the full backstory. So everything I'm about to say comes everything I'm about to say comes everything I'm about to say comes directly from her and from police

directly from her and from police directly from her and from police documents. She said that a few years documents. She said that a few years documents. She said that a few years before all of this back in 2017, Nick's before all of this back in 2017, Nick's before all of this back in 2017, Nick's passion was personal training, but he passion was personal training, but he passion was personal training, but he had been doing HVAC work for a while and had been doing HVAC work for a while and had been doing HVAC work for a while and decided around that time that he wanted decided around that time that he wanted decided around that time that he wanted to be his own boss, like run his own to be his own boss, like run his own to be his own boss, like run his own company. So it felt like perfect timing company. So it felt like perfect timing company. So it felt like perfect timing when that year this guy named Frank who when that year this guy named Frank who when that year this guy named Frank who Nick used to go riding like in the dunes Nick used to go riding like in the dunes Nick used to go riding like in the dunes with told him that he owned half of this with told him that he owned half of this with told him that he owned half of this successful company called Gilbert Air successful company called Gilbert Air successful company called Gilbert Air but he was burned out and he was looking but he was burned out and he was looking but he was burned out and he was looking to sell his share for actually super to sell his share for actually super to sell his share for actually super cheap. cheap. cheap. >> Super successful but super cheap feels >> Super successful but super cheap feels >> Super successful but super cheap feels like a red flag to me. like a red flag to me. like a red flag to me. >> And well there was a red flag that Frank >> And well there was a red flag that Frank >> And well there was a red flag that Frank was pretty upfront about. He told Nick was pretty upfront about. He told Nick was pretty upfront about. He told Nick that he had a co-owner who was basically that he had a co-owner who was basically that he had a co-owner who was basically like the money guy while he ran the like the money guy while he ran the like the money guy while he ran the business. But this co-owner, Dave business. But this co-owner, Dave business. But this co-owner, Dave Sweetman, was a quote shady posos. And Sweetman, was a quote shady posos. And Sweetman, was a quote shady posos. And so that's why Frank wanted to get out. so that's why Frank wanted to get out. so that's why Frank wanted to get out. Shady how? He didn't really specify, but Shady how? He didn't really specify, but Shady how? He didn't really specify, but if you look up Dave's records, you'll if you look up Dave's records, you'll if you look up Dave's records, you'll see charges for assault, disorderly see charges for assault, disorderly see charges for assault, disorderly conduct, a bunch of driving infractions, conduct, a bunch of driving infractions, conduct, a bunch of driving infractions, fraud, and trespassing, among other fraud, and trespassing, among other fraud, and trespassing, among other things. Now, Alicia and Nick didn't know things. Now, Alicia and Nick didn't know things. Now, Alicia and Nick didn't know these specifics, but regardless, Nick these specifics, but regardless, Nick these specifics, but regardless, Nick was the kind of guy who loved rising to was the kind of guy who loved rising to was the kind of guy who loved rising to a challenge. It's something that was a challenge. It's something that was a challenge. It's something that was like instilled in him from childhood, like instilled in him from childhood, like instilled in him from childhood, being raised by a single mom who had him being raised by a single mom who had him being raised by a single mom who had him when she was just 16. Nick's grandma and when she was just 16. Nick's grandma and when she was just 16. Nick's grandma and grandpa actually helped raise him. And grandpa actually helped raise him. And grandpa actually helped raise him. And when his mom later had two other when his mom later had two other when his mom later had two other children with men who were not the most children with men who were not the most children with men who were not the most present, Nick sort of took on the father

present, Nick sort of took on the father present, Nick sort of took on the father figure role to raise them. So Nick chose figure role to raise them. So Nick chose figure role to raise them. So Nick chose to see this as a golden opportunity. He to see this as a golden opportunity. He to see this as a golden opportunity. He got another one of his friends to buy in got another one of his friends to buy in got another one of his friends to buy in too. So they would each own 25% of the too. So they would each own 25% of the too. So they would each own 25% of the company while Dave Sweetman would keep company while Dave Sweetman would keep company while Dave Sweetman would keep the remaining 50. But less than a week the remaining 50. But less than a week the remaining 50. But less than a week before the deal was going to be signed, before the deal was going to be signed, before the deal was going to be signed, Nick's friend dropped out. Said that he Nick's friend dropped out. Said that he Nick's friend dropped out. Said that he just got this weird feeling. just got this weird feeling. just got this weird feeling. >> A weird feeling about Dave. >> A weird feeling about Dave. >> A weird feeling about Dave. >> No, not what he said. Just a weird >> No, not what he said. Just a weird >> No, not what he said. Just a weird feeling that he was worried about the feeling that he was worried about the feeling that he was worried about the business not succeeding. and he didn't business not succeeding. and he didn't business not succeeding. and he didn't think that he could make a big leap like think that he could make a big leap like think that he could make a big leap like that. It's a it's a big deal, that. It's a it's a big deal, that. It's a it's a big deal, >> but this wasn't for Nick and he wasn't >> but this wasn't for Nick and he wasn't >> but this wasn't for Nick and he wasn't going to let this be a deal breakaker. going to let this be a deal breakaker. going to let this be a deal breakaker. Remember, the guy liked a challenge, so Remember, the guy liked a challenge, so Remember, the guy liked a challenge, so he just decided to do it on his own. he just decided to do it on his own. he just decided to do it on his own. Alicia, though, she was more wary of Alicia, though, she was more wary of Alicia, though, she was more wary of Dave. But Nick managed to convince her Dave. But Nick managed to convince her Dave. But Nick managed to convince her that everything was going to be okay, that everything was going to be okay, that everything was going to be okay, great, even. He was over the moon to great, even. He was over the moon to great, even. He was over the moon to have something that was his. And seeing have something that was his. And seeing have something that was his. And seeing how excited he was, how could Alicia not how excited he was, how could Alicia not how excited he was, how could Alicia not support him? So, the deal was done and support him? So, the deal was done and support him? So, the deal was done and Nick took an ownership stake in 2018 and Nick took an ownership stake in 2018 and Nick took an ownership stake in 2018 and at first everything did seem good.

at first everything did seem good. at first everything did seem good. Alicia said that Nick very much kept his Alicia said that Nick very much kept his Alicia said that Nick very much kept his like business and personal lives like business and personal lives like business and personal lives separate for 2018 and 2019. She barely separate for 2018 and 2019. She barely separate for 2018 and 2019. She barely even met Dave, only ever was around him even met Dave, only ever was around him even met Dave, only ever was around him like three times. Things seemed to be like three times. Things seemed to be like three times. Things seemed to be going smoothly. But then about 6 months going smoothly. But then about 6 months going smoothly. But then about 6 months before Nick would be killed, things before Nick would be killed, things before Nick would be killed, things started unraveling. Out of nowhere, Nick started unraveling. Out of nowhere, Nick started unraveling. Out of nowhere, Nick came home one night and told Alicia, "I came home one night and told Alicia, "I came home one night and told Alicia, "I know it sounds crazy, but I'm telling know it sounds crazy, but I'm telling know it sounds crazy, but I'm telling you, I feel like someone's been watching you, I feel like someone's been watching you, I feel like someone's been watching me." Which at the time, Alicia said that me." Which at the time, Alicia said that me." Which at the time, Alicia said that she just kind of brushed off because she just kind of brushed off because she just kind of brushed off because like it it's just sounded so absurd. And like it it's just sounded so absurd. And like it it's just sounded so absurd. And she just tried to comfort Nick, reassure she just tried to comfort Nick, reassure she just tried to comfort Nick, reassure him that like everything was fine. But him that like everything was fine. But him that like everything was fine. But then Alicia tells police that 3 months then Alicia tells police that 3 months then Alicia tells police that 3 months after that in March of 2020, Nick told after that in March of 2020, Nick told after that in March of 2020, Nick told her that Dave took $30,000 out of their her that Dave took $30,000 out of their her that Dave took $30,000 out of their company account, which he had never done company account, which he had never done company account, which he had never done before. And when Nick asked him about before. And when Nick asked him about before. And when Nick asked him about it, Dave said that he had this debt that it, Dave said that he had this debt that it, Dave said that he had this debt that he had to pay, but he would replace it he had to pay, but he would replace it he had to pay, but he would replace it before payroll was due. And that's when before payroll was due. And that's when before payroll was due. And that's when Nick told Alicia like, "I think I need Nick told Alicia like, "I think I need Nick told Alicia like, "I think I need to get out of this business with this to get out of this business with this to get out of this business with this guy. I don't know what I got myself guy. I don't know what I got myself guy. I don't know what I got myself into." and he told her that he thought into." and he told her that he thought into." and he told her that he thought Dave was doing something possibly Dave was doing something possibly Dave was doing something possibly illegal with the other companies that he illegal with the other companies that he illegal with the other companies that he owned. And like he's like, "I don't know owned. And like he's like, "I don't know owned. And like he's like, "I don't know what's happening, but like I don't want what's happening, but like I don't want what's happening, but like I don't want any part of whatever it is." Now, Alicia any part of whatever it is." Now, Alicia any part of whatever it is." Now, Alicia said Nick's stress level went through said Nick's stress level went through said Nick's stress level went through the roof at this point. But it only got the roof at this point. But it only got the roof at this point. But it only got worse come April when Dave not only worse come April when Dave not only worse come April when Dave not only doesn't pay back the money that he doesn't pay back the money that he doesn't pay back the money that he already took, but he takes out another already took, but he takes out another already took, but he takes out another $15,000 from the company. Then in May,

$15,000 from the company. Then in May, $15,000 from the company. Then in May, Nick told Alicia again, "I just can't Nick told Alicia again, "I just can't Nick told Alicia again, "I just can't shake this feeling that somebody is shake this feeling that somebody is shake this feeling that somebody is watching me." And then what he said next watching me." And then what he said next watching me." And then what he said next came out as a joke, but there is nothing came out as a joke, but there is nothing came out as a joke, but there is nothing funny about it now. She told police that funny about it now. She told police that funny about it now. She told police that he was worried Dave would quote hire a he was worried Dave would quote hire a he was worried Dave would quote hire a hitman to take him out so Dave could hitman to take him out so Dave could hitman to take him out so Dave could collect the insurance money. End quote. collect the insurance money. End quote. collect the insurance money. End quote. >> What insurance money? >> What insurance money? >> What insurance money? >> Alicia had the same question when Nick >> Alicia had the same question when Nick >> Alicia had the same question when Nick said that. Like what do you mean said that. Like what do you mean said that. Like what do you mean insurance money? insurance money? insurance money? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And that is when Nick first told her >> And that is when Nick first told her >> And that is when Nick first told her that at some point Dave told him that to that at some point Dave told him that to that at some point Dave told him that to protect the business like for each of protect the business like for each of protect the business like for each of them Dave and Nick should take out life them Dave and Nick should take out life them Dave and Nick should take out life insurance policies against each other. insurance policies against each other. insurance policies against each other. >> And is that something that Dave had when >> And is that something that Dave had when >> And is that something that Dave had when the previous owner that Frank guy was the previous owner that Frank guy was the previous owner that Frank guy was there? there? there? >> No, but not for a lack of trying. >> No, but not for a lack of trying. >> No, but not for a lack of trying. According to the police file, Dave According to the police file, Dave According to the police file, Dave repeatedly tried to get this Frank guy repeatedly tried to get this Frank guy repeatedly tried to get this Frank guy to do the same thing, but Frank refused, to do the same thing, but Frank refused, to do the same thing, but Frank refused, telling Dave that he wanted to be worth telling Dave that he wanted to be worth telling Dave that he wanted to be worth more alive than dead. Good advice, more alive than dead. Good advice, more alive than dead. Good advice, especially when you have a shifty especially when you have a shifty especially when you have a shifty business partner. Now, hearing about business partner. Now, hearing about business partner. Now, hearing about this policy at the time, I mean, it this policy at the time, I mean, it this policy at the time, I mean, it really shook Alicia because she said really shook Alicia because she said really shook Alicia because she said Nick was not a worrier. He never seemed Nick was not a worrier. He never seemed Nick was not a worrier. He never seemed to get stressed about anything. But to get stressed about anything. But to get stressed about anything. But after he told her that, he was just like after he told her that, he was just like after he told her that, he was just like tossing and turning in bed the whole tossing and turning in bed the whole tossing and turning in bed the whole night. So by the time Memorial Day night. So by the time Memorial Day night. So by the time Memorial Day weekend came around, Nick was in dire weekend came around, Nick was in dire weekend came around, Nick was in dire need of a reset. So the Cordova family need of a reset. So the Cordova family need of a reset. So the Cordova family decided that they were going to take a decided that they were going to take a decided that they were going to take a camping trip together. According to

camping trip together. According to camping trip together. According to Alicia, when they got back on Monday Alicia, when they got back on Monday Alicia, when they got back on Monday night, she and the kids begged Nick to night, she and the kids begged Nick to night, she and the kids begged Nick to just take the next day off so they could just take the next day off so they could just take the next day off so they could just like keep this family time going. I just like keep this family time going. I just like keep this family time going. I imagine that it probably felt like this imagine that it probably felt like this imagine that it probably felt like this great reprieve, right? and he did, which great reprieve, right? and he did, which great reprieve, right? and he did, which made Wednesday Nick's first day back in made Wednesday Nick's first day back in made Wednesday Nick's first day back in the office after that long weekend. And the office after that long weekend. And the office after that long weekend. And that is the day that he would be killed. that is the day that he would be killed. that is the day that he would be killed. So, what did the office manager have to So, what did the office manager have to So, what did the office manager have to say about Dave? I mean, she's there on say about Dave? I mean, she's there on say about Dave? I mean, she's there on the scene by the time they're hearing the scene by the time they're hearing the scene by the time they're hearing this from Alicia, right? this from Alicia, right? this from Alicia, right? >> They talk to her on the scene when she >> They talk to her on the scene when she >> They talk to her on the scene when she arrives, too. And Lynn is her name. And arrives, too. And Lynn is her name. And arrives, too. And Lynn is her name. And she told police that her and Dave didn't she told police that her and Dave didn't she told police that her and Dave didn't get along. But she did say something get along. But she did say something get along. But she did say something strange. She said that like recently he strange. She said that like recently he strange. She said that like recently he had been acting strange, like he started had been acting strange, like he started had been acting strange, like he started coming into the office more frequently coming into the office more frequently coming into the office more frequently and being more like friendly to her, and being more like friendly to her, and being more like friendly to her, though he would mostly just ask about though he would mostly just ask about though he would mostly just ask about money. Lynn said that he seemed quote money. Lynn said that he seemed quote money. Lynn said that he seemed quote unquote obsessed with money and she unquote obsessed with money and she unquote obsessed with money and she would hear him yelling at Nick about it. would hear him yelling at Nick about it. would hear him yelling at Nick about it. And here's the really interesting thing And here's the really interesting thing And here's the really interesting thing that she added when she was talking to that she added when she was talking to that she added when she was talking to police. So the day before the shooting, police. So the day before the shooting, police. So the day before the shooting, that would have been Tuesday, May 26th, that would have been Tuesday, May 26th, that would have been Tuesday, May 26th, this is the Tuesday after Memorial Day this is the Tuesday after Memorial Day this is the Tuesday after Memorial Day weekend. Now, Nick was supposed to be in weekend. Now, Nick was supposed to be in weekend. Now, Nick was supposed to be in the office that day, but as we know, he the office that day, but as we know, he the office that day, but as we know, he makes this last minute decision to stay makes this last minute decision to stay makes this last minute decision to stay home with his family, home with his family, home with his family, >> but apparently that whole day, Dave kept >> but apparently that whole day, Dave kept >> but apparently that whole day, Dave kept asking Lynn over and over like, "Where's asking Lynn over and over like, "Where's asking Lynn over and over like, "Where's Nick? When's Nick going to get in?

Nick? When's Nick going to get in? Nick? When's Nick going to get in? When's he getting back?" And she just When's he getting back?" And she just When's he getting back?" And she just said that Dave kept like pacing back and said that Dave kept like pacing back and said that Dave kept like pacing back and forth and leaving the office for like forth and leaving the office for like forth and leaving the office for like short periods of time. And she tells short periods of time. And she tells short periods of time. And she tells police that when Dave came in to work police that when Dave came in to work police that when Dave came in to work the day of the shooting, he was quieter the day of the shooting, he was quieter the day of the shooting, he was quieter than usual. and he wasn't joking around than usual. and he wasn't joking around than usual. and he wasn't joking around like he usually did. And at one point in like he usually did. And at one point in like he usually did. And at one point in the day, he and Nick closed the door to the day, he and Nick closed the door to the day, he and Nick closed the door to their office and it sounded like they their office and it sounded like they their office and it sounded like they were having an argument. But Lynn was were having an argument. But Lynn was were having an argument. But Lynn was listening to the radio, so she couldn't listening to the radio, so she couldn't listening to the radio, so she couldn't hear exactly what it was that they were hear exactly what it was that they were hear exactly what it was that they were saying. Now, I have to mention officers saying. Now, I have to mention officers saying. Now, I have to mention officers weren't just asking Lynn about Dave. weren't just asking Lynn about Dave. weren't just asking Lynn about Dave. They also asked her about Alicia and They also asked her about Alicia and They also asked her about Alicia and Nick's relationship. And Lynn says that Nick's relationship. And Lynn says that Nick's relationship. And Lynn says that she wished her and her husband had a she wished her and her husband had a she wished her and her husband had a relationship like theirs. She said that relationship like theirs. She said that relationship like theirs. She said that Nick was giving and kind and she didn't Nick was giving and kind and she didn't Nick was giving and kind and she didn't know a single person who didn't like know a single person who didn't like know a single person who didn't like him. And this is a common theme. By the him. And this is a common theme. By the him. And this is a common theme. By the way, another employee says that way, another employee says that way, another employee says that everybody loved Nick and he never saw everybody loved Nick and he never saw everybody loved Nick and he never saw him get angry or even like raise his him get angry or even like raise his him get angry or even like raise his voice once at work. And by the way, if voice once at work. And by the way, if voice once at work. And by the way, if it wasn't already clear what kind of guy it wasn't already clear what kind of guy it wasn't already clear what kind of guy Nick was, Alicia said that she and at Nick was, Alicia said that she and at Nick was, Alicia said that she and at least 50 other people stayed at the least 50 other people stayed at the least 50 other people stayed at the crime scene that whole first night, crime scene that whole first night, crime scene that whole first night, refusing to leave until Nick was brought refusing to leave until Nick was brought refusing to leave until Nick was brought out. They waited in the parking lot out. They waited in the parking lot out. They waited in the parking lot until the sun came up. And that whole until the sun came up. And that whole until the sun came up. And that whole time, Alicia was still asking officers time, Alicia was still asking officers time, Alicia was still asking officers where Dave was and telling them that she where Dave was and telling them that she where Dave was and telling them that she believed he was responsible for Nick's believed he was responsible for Nick's believed he was responsible for Nick's death. But once they reviewed the death. But once they reviewed the death. But once they reviewed the surveillance footage, they told her that surveillance footage, they told her that surveillance footage, they told her that he wasn't the one who killed Nick, that he wasn't the one who killed Nick, that he wasn't the one who killed Nick, that he was released, and that there was he was released, and that there was he was released, and that there was nothing they could do.

nothing they could do. nothing they could do. >> What do you mean there is nothing you >> What do you mean there is nothing you >> What do you mean there is nothing you can do? I mean, no one's proven to me can do? I mean, no one's proven to me can do? I mean, no one's proven to me that he wasn't involved. Just because that he wasn't involved. Just because that he wasn't involved. Just because there are two other guys can't mean he's there are two other guys can't mean he's there are two other guys can't mean he's cleared. I mean, they're only hours in cleared. I mean, they're only hours in cleared. I mean, they're only hours in at this point. Plus, Alicia literally at this point. Plus, Alicia literally at this point. Plus, Alicia literally told them Nick was worried about Dave told them Nick was worried about Dave told them Nick was worried about Dave hiring a hitman. These are the exact hiring a hitman. These are the exact hiring a hitman. These are the exact reasons that Alicia is frustrated. She reasons that Alicia is frustrated. She reasons that Alicia is frustrated. She doesn't understand why nothing more can doesn't understand why nothing more can doesn't understand why nothing more can be done and why no one seems to be be done and why no one seems to be be done and why no one seems to be giving her like an adequate explanation. giving her like an adequate explanation. giving her like an adequate explanation. So, over the course of like 12 hours or So, over the course of like 12 hours or So, over the course of like 12 hours or so, she pleads with them, throwing out so, she pleads with them, throwing out so, she pleads with them, throwing out everything she knows about the insurance everything she knows about the insurance everything she knows about the insurance stuff and suggesting a hit for hire stuff and suggesting a hit for hire stuff and suggesting a hit for hire until around 6:00 a.m. when Nick is until around 6:00 a.m. when Nick is until around 6:00 a.m. when Nick is finally wheeled out of the office in a finally wheeled out of the office in a finally wheeled out of the office in a body bag. Officers give Alicia his keys body bag. Officers give Alicia his keys body bag. Officers give Alicia his keys and his wallet, which by the way, his and his wallet, which by the way, his and his wallet, which by the way, his wallet still has money in it, but they wallet still has money in it, but they wallet still has money in it, but they tell her that they have to take his tell her that they have to take his tell her that they have to take his wedding ring to test for DNA. Why just wedding ring to test for DNA. Why just wedding ring to test for DNA. Why just his wedding ring? his wedding ring? his wedding ring? >> I was just going to say, we asked >> I was just going to say, we asked >> I was just going to say, we asked Alicia. She doesn't know why. I'm Alicia. She doesn't know why. I'm Alicia. She doesn't know why. I'm assuming that they collected maybe assuming that they collected maybe assuming that they collected maybe things that they thought would be the things that they thought would be the things that they thought would be the most likely to have like a salent DNA on most likely to have like a salent DNA on most likely to have like a salent DNA on it. And maybe it was clear like the it. And maybe it was clear like the it. And maybe it was clear like the wallet wasn't touched or something. I wallet wasn't touched or something. I wallet wasn't touched or something. I don't really know. which would make the don't really know. which would make the don't really know. which would make the robbery theory even harder to buy robbery theory even harder to buy robbery theory even harder to buy >> 100%. So Nick is taken away and >> 100%. So Nick is taken away and >> 100%. So Nick is taken away and regardless of what the police were regardless of what the police were regardless of what the police were telling Alicia about Dave and the telling Alicia about Dave and the telling Alicia about Dave and the surveillance video, I mean at that point surveillance video, I mean at that point surveillance video, I mean at that point she's terrified. So she immediately goes she's terrified. So she immediately goes she's terrified. So she immediately goes to the Scottsdale police station to file to the Scottsdale police station to file to the Scottsdale police station to file a restraining order against Dave. But

a restraining order against Dave. But a restraining order against Dave. But since Dave hadn't actually been charged since Dave hadn't actually been charged since Dave hadn't actually been charged with any wrongdoing at that point, she's with any wrongdoing at that point, she's with any wrongdoing at that point, she's told that like she doesn't really have told that like she doesn't really have told that like she doesn't really have any grounds for that. However, hearing any grounds for that. However, hearing any grounds for that. However, hearing the circumstances of her husband's death the circumstances of her husband's death the circumstances of her husband's death and, you know, hearing why she's scared, and, you know, hearing why she's scared, and, you know, hearing why she's scared, detectives do tell her that actually detectives do tell her that actually detectives do tell her that actually keeping a line open with Dave might be keeping a line open with Dave might be keeping a line open with Dave might be helpful. Maybe Dave will communicate helpful. Maybe Dave will communicate helpful. Maybe Dave will communicate with her, say something to her that with her, say something to her that with her, say something to her that changes things or conflicts with his changes things or conflicts with his changes things or conflicts with his original story. And listen, this guy's original story. And listen, this guy's original story. And listen, this guy's instincts, whoever told her this, like instincts, whoever told her this, like instincts, whoever told her this, like they weren't far off because 3 days they weren't far off because 3 days they weren't far off because 3 days later, Dave does reach out to her, not later, Dave does reach out to her, not later, Dave does reach out to her, not to talk about the case, but to ask if he to talk about the case, but to ask if he to talk about the case, but to ask if he can help with funeral arrangements. But can help with funeral arrangements. But can help with funeral arrangements. But Alicia is in no place to try and like Alicia is in no place to try and like Alicia is in no place to try and like use this and play detective right now. use this and play detective right now. use this and play detective right now. Like, she can't even stomach the guy, Like, she can't even stomach the guy, Like, she can't even stomach the guy, especially not offering to help with the especially not offering to help with the especially not offering to help with the funeral of her husband, who she is like funeral of her husband, who she is like funeral of her husband, who she is like suspicious he may have had killed. So suspicious he may have had killed. So suspicious he may have had killed. So Alicia declines. And in fact, she tells Alicia declines. And in fact, she tells Alicia declines. And in fact, she tells Dave, "It honestly be best if you don't Dave, "It honestly be best if you don't Dave, "It honestly be best if you don't attend the funeral at all." At this attend the funeral at all." At this attend the funeral at all." At this point, Alicia and her children are point, Alicia and her children are point, Alicia and her children are staying with her cousin and then after staying with her cousin and then after staying with her cousin and then after that with Nick's cousins, then after that with Nick's cousins, then after that with Nick's cousins, then after that, Nick's cousins and friends like that, Nick's cousins and friends like that, Nick's cousins and friends like take turns sleeping on her couch with a take turns sleeping on her couch with a take turns sleeping on her couch with a gun at the ready. says Alicia is still gun at the ready. says Alicia is still gun at the ready. says Alicia is still terrified of someone coming after her terrified of someone coming after her terrified of someone coming after her and her children. She doesn't know when and her children. She doesn't know when and her children. She doesn't know when she'll ever feel safe again, but she she'll ever feel safe again, but she she'll ever feel safe again, but she definitely doesn't write in the definitely doesn't write in the definitely doesn't write in the aftermath when whoever was behind Nick's aftermath when whoever was behind Nick's aftermath when whoever was behind Nick's murder is just out there. So, what are murder is just out there. So, what are murder is just out there. So, what are Gilbert police doing to find those men Gilbert police doing to find those men Gilbert police doing to find those men on the video footage? Well, starting on on the video footage? Well, starting on on the video footage? Well, starting on the morning that Nick's body was removed

the morning that Nick's body was removed the morning that Nick's body was removed from the building, they did begin like from the building, they did begin like from the building, they did begin like canvasing the neighborhood, but it seems canvasing the neighborhood, but it seems canvasing the neighborhood, but it seems like the only real lead that they get is like the only real lead that they get is like the only real lead that they get is like figuring out that it was that red like figuring out that it was that red like figuring out that it was that red and silver truck. So, they spend over a and silver truck. So, they spend over a and silver truck. So, they spend over a week searching not only for the truck week searching not only for the truck week searching not only for the truck itself, which was again, like I said, itself, which was again, like I said, itself, which was again, like I said, this older two-tone red and silver this older two-tone red and silver this older two-tone red and silver extended cab Ford F-150, but they are extended cab Ford F-150, but they are extended cab Ford F-150, but they are also going to all of the surrounding also going to all of the surrounding also going to all of the surrounding businesses looking for witnesses or businesses looking for witnesses or businesses looking for witnesses or additional surveillance cameras that may additional surveillance cameras that may additional surveillance cameras that may have captured the people or the truck. have captured the people or the truck. have captured the people or the truck. And they actually did end up hitting pay And they actually did end up hitting pay And they actually did end up hitting pay dirt at the AM PM about 2 minutes down dirt at the AM PM about 2 minutes down dirt at the AM PM about 2 minutes down the road from the office. Not only does the road from the office. Not only does the road from the office. Not only does the convenience store have surveillance the convenience store have surveillance the convenience store have surveillance footage of the truck in question, they footage of the truck in question, they footage of the truck in question, they also have surveillance footage of one of also have surveillance footage of one of also have surveillance footage of one of the men who was inside of it. On June 12th, just over two weeks after On June 12th, just over two weeks after the shooting, Gilbert PD releases the the shooting, Gilbert PD releases the the shooting, Gilbert PD releases the footage from the AMM to the public to footage from the AMM to the public to footage from the AMM to the public to see if anyone can identify the mystery see if anyone can identify the mystery see if anyone can identify the mystery man who they say was in the passenger man who they say was in the passenger man who they say was in the passenger seat of this vehicle that they're seat of this vehicle that they're seat of this vehicle that they're looking for in connection to this case.

looking for in connection to this case. looking for in connection to this case. >> Wait, when is the footage from? >> Wait, when is the footage from? >> Wait, when is the footage from? >> So, the footage that they get is from >> So, the footage that they get is from >> So, the footage that they get is from the day of the shooting. Actually, just the day of the shooting. Actually, just the day of the shooting. Actually, just literal minutes after the shooting based literal minutes after the shooting based literal minutes after the shooting based on the timestamps. And listen, I got to on the timestamps. And listen, I got to on the timestamps. And listen, I got to say this is close to, if not the say this is close to, if not the say this is close to, if not the clearest image of a suspect's face I clearest image of a suspect's face I clearest image of a suspect's face I have ever seen from surveillance footage have ever seen from surveillance footage have ever seen from surveillance footage in a case. Like anyone who knows this in a case. Like anyone who knows this in a case. Like anyone who knows this guy would be able to recognize him guy would be able to recognize him guy would be able to recognize him instantaneously, which makes it so wild instantaneously, which makes it so wild instantaneously, which makes it so wild to me that they're not putting it out to to me that they're not putting it out to to me that they're not putting it out to the public until June 12th. But in the the public until June 12th. But in the the public until June 12th. But in the footage, here is what we see. So, this footage, here is what we see. So, this footage, here is what we see. So, this truck in question pulls up to a pump at truck in question pulls up to a pump at truck in question pulls up to a pump at the gas station literally 2 minutes the gas station literally 2 minutes the gas station literally 2 minutes after the shooting. Then there is a guy after the shooting. Then there is a guy after the shooting. Then there is a guy who police describe as about 5 foot who police describe as about 5 foot who police describe as about 5 foot eight with a heavy set build wearing a eight with a heavy set build wearing a eight with a heavy set build wearing a dark-coled t-shirt, blue jeans, and dark-coled t-shirt, blue jeans, and dark-coled t-shirt, blue jeans, and dark-colored boots that gets out of the dark-colored boots that gets out of the dark-colored boots that gets out of the truck and walks through the gas station truck and walks through the gas station truck and walks through the gas station parking lot up to the door of the amm parking lot up to the door of the amm parking lot up to the door of the amm and then enters the store at 5:33 p.m.

and then enters the store at 5:33 p.m. and then enters the store at 5:33 p.m. He goes to the counter where we get this He goes to the counter where we get this He goes to the counter where we get this direct shot of his face from a camera direct shot of his face from a camera direct shot of his face from a camera that must be like over the counter that must be like over the counter that must be like over the counter somewhere. Now, he talks briefly with somewhere. Now, he talks briefly with somewhere. Now, he talks briefly with the clerk and then he goes out, fills the clerk and then he goes out, fills the clerk and then he goes out, fills his tank before the truck pulls out at his tank before the truck pulls out at his tank before the truck pulls out at 5:36, and all we know is that it drives 5:36, and all we know is that it drives 5:36, and all we know is that it drives northbound. northbound. northbound. >> I mean, do we know what he said to the >> I mean, do we know what he said to the >> I mean, do we know what he said to the clerk? clerk? clerk? >> Nothing important. Um, the they talked >> Nothing important. Um, the they talked >> Nothing important. Um, the they talked to the clerk and they said that this guy to the clerk and they said that this guy to the clerk and they said that this guy was like a non-con conversationalist, was like a non-con conversationalist, was like a non-con conversationalist, just like, you know, 10 bucks on Pump 7 just like, you know, 10 bucks on Pump 7 just like, you know, 10 bucks on Pump 7 kind of guy. And he of course paid cash kind of guy. And he of course paid cash kind of guy. And he of course paid cash and they're like, "Listen, I probably at and they're like, "Listen, I probably at and they're like, "Listen, I probably at this point couldn't even pick the guy this point couldn't even pick the guy this point couldn't even pick the guy out of a lineup." So, is this a third out of a lineup." So, is this a third out of a lineup." So, is this a third guy or did the shooters change clothes guy or did the shooters change clothes guy or did the shooters change clothes because they weren't wearing those like because they weren't wearing those like because they weren't wearing those like bright green shirts in the video from bright green shirts in the video from bright green shirts in the video from the business? the business? the business? >> No, you're right. They don't think, at >> No, you're right. They don't think, at >> No, you're right. They don't think, at least from what I can tell, they don't least from what I can tell, they don't least from what I can tell, they don't think this is a third man. They think think this is a third man. They think think this is a third man. They think whoever this is took off the mask and whoever this is took off the mask and whoever this is took off the mask and either removed the bright green shirt or either removed the bright green shirt or either removed the bright green shirt or like switched outfits or whatever, but like switched outfits or whatever, but like switched outfits or whatever, but this is the guy that they're looking for this is the guy that they're looking for this is the guy that they're looking for or one of them. Now, Alicia, Lynn, and or one of them. Now, Alicia, Lynn, and or one of them. Now, Alicia, Lynn, and other employees at Gilbert Air all are other employees at Gilbert Air all are other employees at Gilbert Air all are shown this gas station footage, but no shown this gas station footage, but no shown this gas station footage, but no one recognizes this guy, one recognizes this guy, one recognizes this guy, >> not even Dave.

>> not even Dave. >> not even Dave. >> He tells Alicia that he didn't know him >> He tells Alicia that he didn't know him >> He tells Alicia that he didn't know him either. If tips come in from the public either. If tips come in from the public either. If tips come in from the public about who this man is, Alicia is never about who this man is, Alicia is never about who this man is, Alicia is never told about it, and I can't tell you told about it, and I can't tell you told about it, and I can't tell you about it because that info about the about it because that info about the about it because that info about the surveillance footage, that is the last surveillance footage, that is the last surveillance footage, that is the last piece of information that comes piece of information that comes piece of information that comes validated from the police file. validated from the police file. validated from the police file. Everything else in the file is redacted. Everything else in the file is redacted. Everything else in the file is redacted. Like we're talking over 200 pages of Like we're talking over 200 pages of Like we're talking over 200 pages of just blacked out everything. I mean, did just blacked out everything. I mean, did just blacked out everything. I mean, did they give Alicia any updates? Well, they give Alicia any updates? Well, they give Alicia any updates? Well, early on in the investigation, Alicia early on in the investigation, Alicia early on in the investigation, Alicia said that there was one Gilbert like PD said that there was one Gilbert like PD said that there was one Gilbert like PD detective who she met with every couple detective who she met with every couple detective who she met with every couple of weeks who seemed really invested in of weeks who seemed really invested in of weeks who seemed really invested in the case. He gave her a full case update the case. He gave her a full case update the case. He gave her a full case update around the one-year mark through this around the one-year mark through this around the one-year mark through this like PowerPoint presentation. and she like PowerPoint presentation. and she like PowerPoint presentation. and she felt hopeful like maybe the wait would felt hopeful like maybe the wait would felt hopeful like maybe the wait would be worth it and all of the months of be worth it and all of the months of be worth it and all of the months of waiting and fear were going to like lead waiting and fear were going to like lead waiting and fear were going to like lead to something because this guy promises to something because this guy promises to something because this guy promises her that arrests are going to be made. her that arrests are going to be made. her that arrests are going to be made. But then in a story that has become all But then in a story that has become all But then in a story that has become all too familiar 2 weeks after that meeting, too familiar 2 weeks after that meeting, too familiar 2 weeks after that meeting, she basically gets a call notifying her she basically gets a call notifying her she basically gets a call notifying her that that guy's off the case. The new that that guy's off the case. The new that that guy's off the case. The new detective says that the original guy got detective says that the original guy got detective says that the original guy got moved down to patrol. And when she asked moved down to patrol. And when she asked moved down to patrol. And when she asked if like that happened willingly, the new if like that happened willingly, the new if like that happened willingly, the new detective was basically like, "Yeah, you detective was basically like, "Yeah, you detective was basically like, "Yeah, you know, like sometimes being a detective know, like sometimes being a detective know, like sometimes being a detective can just take a toll on people." And can just take a toll on people." And can just take a toll on people." And it's not uncommon for people to have to it's not uncommon for people to have to it's not uncommon for people to have to take a break. But Alicia has always take a break. But Alicia has always take a break. But Alicia has always suspected that the demotion was because suspected that the demotion was because suspected that the demotion was because maybe that first guy, that that one

maybe that first guy, that that one maybe that first guy, that that one detective who showed her the PowerPoint, detective who showed her the PowerPoint, detective who showed her the PowerPoint, maybe that guy told her too much or maybe that guy told her too much or maybe that guy told her too much or worse, maybe he screwed something up worse, maybe he screwed something up worse, maybe he screwed something up with Nick's case. Now, we did reach out with Nick's case. Now, we did reach out with Nick's case. Now, we did reach out to Gilbert PD for comment, and they said to Gilbert PD for comment, and they said to Gilbert PD for comment, and they said that they are still actively that they are still actively that they are still actively investigating, but cannot disclose investigating, but cannot disclose investigating, but cannot disclose further information at this time. further information at this time. further information at this time. >> So, wait, did did they look into Dave >> So, wait, did did they look into Dave >> So, wait, did did they look into Dave Moore and like all all the insurance Moore and like all all the insurance Moore and like all all the insurance stuff? Like, did he get a payout when stuff? Like, did he get a payout when stuff? Like, did he get a payout when Nick died? Nick died? Nick died? >> So, as far as I can tell from the file, >> So, as far as I can tell from the file, >> So, as far as I can tell from the file, police did a follow-up interview with police did a follow-up interview with police did a follow-up interview with Dave Sweetman and even his girlfriend Dave Sweetman and even his girlfriend Dave Sweetman and even his girlfriend Susan, and that was in August of 2020. I Susan, and that was in August of 2020. I Susan, and that was in August of 2020. I have no idea what came of that. As for have no idea what came of that. As for have no idea what came of that. As for the insurance stuff, that would go on the insurance stuff, that would go on the insurance stuff, that would go on for years. It started though just 5 days for years. It started though just 5 days for years. It started though just 5 days after the shooting. That is when Dave after the shooting. That is when Dave after the shooting. That is when Dave texted Alicia this string of messages texted Alicia this string of messages texted Alicia this string of messages about signing some documents for the about signing some documents for the about signing some documents for the claim. And Alicia, who lost her husband claim. And Alicia, who lost her husband claim. And Alicia, who lost her husband 5 days ago in in front of Dave, by the 5 days ago in in front of Dave, by the 5 days ago in in front of Dave, by the way. way. way. >> Yeah. Who is worried that he was killed >> Yeah. Who is worried that he was killed >> Yeah. Who is worried that he was killed for insurance money was like, "No, maybe for insurance money was like, "No, maybe for insurance money was like, "No, maybe like not now.

like not now. like not now. >> How about you let me bury my husband >> How about you let me bury my husband >> How about you let me bury my husband first and then I'll figure all of this first and then I'll figure all of this first and then I'll figure all of this out?" But Dave comes back to her and out?" But Dave comes back to her and out?" But Dave comes back to her and he's like, "Okay, but like just so you he's like, "Okay, but like just so you he's like, "Okay, but like just so you know, you should be getting around like know, you should be getting around like know, you should be getting around like $500,000." $500,000." $500,000." Now, Alicia, she didn't know anything Now, Alicia, she didn't know anything Now, Alicia, she didn't know anything about these policies, but in her mind, about these policies, but in her mind, about these policies, but in her mind, she's thinking like, okay, like the she's thinking like, okay, like the she's thinking like, okay, like the policy pays out to the business. Nick policy pays out to the business. Nick policy pays out to the business. Nick owned half of the business, so it must owned half of the business, so it must owned half of the business, so it must have been a million-doll policy, right? have been a million-doll policy, right? have been a million-doll policy, right? Split 50/50. Makes sense. Split 50/50. Makes sense. Split 50/50. Makes sense. >> But just to confirm, she decided to go >> But just to confirm, she decided to go >> But just to confirm, she decided to go checking through Nick's emails. And checking through Nick's emails. And checking through Nick's emails. And that's when she found out that there was that's when she found out that there was that's when she found out that there was another policy. And both policies another policy. And both policies another policy. And both policies together would pay out not $1 million together would pay out not $1 million together would pay out not $1 million but $8 million. but $8 million. but $8 million. What? So Alicia refuses to sign the What? So Alicia refuses to sign the What? So Alicia refuses to sign the documents which according to her does documents which according to her does documents which according to her does not sit well with Dave. He goes off on not sit well with Dave. He goes off on not sit well with Dave. He goes off on her about how she's like making this so her about how she's like making this so her about how she's like making this so difficult and that it's really Nick's difficult and that it's really Nick's difficult and that it's really Nick's fault for not having mapped everything fault for not having mapped everything fault for not having mapped everything out for her. And that's when Alicia had out for her. And that's when Alicia had out for her. And that's when Alicia had had enough. She gets a lawyer of her own had enough. She gets a lawyer of her own had enough. She gets a lawyer of her own and decides to push back. Now, they find and decides to push back. Now, they find and decides to push back. Now, they find an agreement that Nick signed when he an agreement that Nick signed when he an agreement that Nick signed when he bought into the business which stated bought into the business which stated bought into the business which stated that in the event of a death, everything that in the event of a death, everything that in the event of a death, everything would be split 50/50. So, like 6 months would be split 50/50. So, like 6 months would be split 50/50. So, like 6 months after the shooting, Alicia's lawyer is after the shooting, Alicia's lawyer is after the shooting, Alicia's lawyer is like, "Okay, listen. Now that we have like, "Okay, listen. Now that we have like, "Okay, listen. Now that we have this, you can sign the documents and this, you can sign the documents and this, you can sign the documents and then we can file this claim." Done and then we can file this claim." Done and then we can file this claim." Done and done. Right?

done. Right? done. Right? >> Wrong. As soon as they file, they get a >> Wrong. As soon as they file, they get a >> Wrong. As soon as they file, they get a call from the insurance company that's call from the insurance company that's call from the insurance company that's confused because they say, quote, "We confused because they say, quote, "We confused because they say, quote, "We already got your signed documents." already got your signed documents." already got your signed documents." What do you mean they already got her What do you mean they already got her What do you mean they already got her signed documents? signed documents? signed documents? >> Alicia has no idea what they're talking >> Alicia has no idea what they're talking >> Alicia has no idea what they're talking about. She's like, "This is the first about. She's like, "This is the first about. She's like, "This is the first time I've ever signed anything. If you time I've ever signed anything. If you time I've ever signed anything. If you have signed documents, somebody forged have signed documents, somebody forged have signed documents, somebody forged my signature." And the company's first my signature." And the company's first my signature." And the company's first question is, "Well, do you know of question is, "Well, do you know of question is, "Well, do you know of anybody that would want to do that?" I anybody that would want to do that?" I anybody that would want to do that?" I mean, I have some thoughts. mean, I have some thoughts. mean, I have some thoughts. >> Alicia can think of only one person, >> Alicia can think of only one person, >> Alicia can think of only one person, Dave. Not so sweetman, which is what she Dave. Not so sweetman, which is what she Dave. Not so sweetman, which is what she has taken to calling him by that point. has taken to calling him by that point. has taken to calling him by that point. >> So, what does this mean for Alicia? Can >> So, what does this mean for Alicia? Can >> So, what does this mean for Alicia? Can she can she still get her half of the she can she still get her half of the she can she still get her half of the money? money? money? >> Well, so what what ends up happening is >> Well, so what what ends up happening is >> Well, so what what ends up happening is she files a police report claiming that she files a police report claiming that she files a police report claiming that Dave forged her signature, but weeks Dave forged her signature, but weeks Dave forged her signature, but weeks later, she's told that there's not later, she's told that there's not later, she's told that there's not enough evidence to charge him. And even enough evidence to charge him. And even enough evidence to charge him. And even though she has that document stating though she has that document stating though she has that document stating that she's meant to get half of the that she's meant to get half of the that she's meant to get half of the insurance payouts, there are loads of insurance payouts, there are loads of insurance payouts, there are loads of other documents with stipulations that other documents with stipulations that other documents with stipulations that her lawyers and Dave's lawyers like just her lawyers and Dave's lawyers like just her lawyers and Dave's lawyers like just cannot seem to get on the same page cannot seem to get on the same page cannot seem to get on the same page about. So after three more years of about. So after three more years of about. So after three more years of legal back and forth in 2024, Alicia and legal back and forth in 2024, Alicia and legal back and forth in 2024, Alicia and Dave finally get everything settled out Dave finally get everything settled out Dave finally get everything settled out of court and each receives an of court and each receives an of court and each receives an undisclosed payout. So, undisclosed payout. So, undisclosed payout. So, while all of that was going on, was while all of that was going on, was while all of that was going on, was Gilbert Air still like in business and

Gilbert Air still like in business and Gilbert Air still like in business and operating? No, operating? No, operating? No, >> Gilbert Air ran out of money like 9 >> Gilbert Air ran out of money like 9 >> Gilbert Air ran out of money like 9 months after Nick's death and they had months after Nick's death and they had months after Nick's death and they had to end up closing even though there was to end up closing even though there was to end up closing even though there was supposedly an $8 million payout to the supposedly an $8 million payout to the supposedly an $8 million payout to the business when Nick died. business when Nick died. business when Nick died. >> Yeah. I don't know what Dave did with >> Yeah. I don't know what Dave did with >> Yeah. I don't know what Dave did with the money that he got or like if it got the money that he got or like if it got the money that he got or like if it got tied up at some point, but for some tied up at some point, but for some tied up at some point, but for some reason, it doesn't seem like it was used reason, it doesn't seem like it was used reason, it doesn't seem like it was used to keep that business operational. the to keep that business operational. the to keep that business operational. the one that Nick and now his family owned one that Nick and now his family owned one that Nick and now his family owned half of half of half of >> instead. Alicia says that, you know, >> instead. Alicia says that, you know, >> instead. Alicia says that, you know, when after Gilbert Air closes down, Dave when after Gilbert Air closes down, Dave when after Gilbert Air closes down, Dave took the client list and started a new took the client list and started a new took the client list and started a new business called Arizona Family Air that business called Arizona Family Air that business called Arizona Family Air that the Cordovas have no stake in and he the Cordovas have no stake in and he the Cordovas have no stake in and he continues to run it out of his house. continues to run it out of his house. continues to run it out of his house. >> Continues like like to this day >> Continues like like to this day >> Continues like like to this day >> to this very day. We called the company >> to this very day. We called the company >> to this very day. We called the company for comment, but as of this recording, for comment, but as of this recording, for comment, but as of this recording, we have not heard back. Dave and his we have not heard back. Dave and his we have not heard back. Dave and his girlfriend Susan didn't respond to us girlfriend Susan didn't respond to us girlfriend Susan didn't respond to us either, though Dave did tell Fox 10 either, though Dave did tell Fox 10 either, though Dave did tell Fox 10 Phoenix back in 2024 that Nick's case Phoenix back in 2024 that Nick's case Phoenix back in 2024 that Nick's case was quote the most traumatic ordeal he's was quote the most traumatic ordeal he's was quote the most traumatic ordeal he's experienced. End quote. Over the years, experienced. End quote. Over the years, experienced. End quote. Over the years, Nick's case starts cycling through Nick's case starts cycling through Nick's case starts cycling through different detectives. Alicia continues different detectives. Alicia continues different detectives. Alicia continues trying to meet with whoever is on the trying to meet with whoever is on the trying to meet with whoever is on the case every few months, but it's just so case every few months, but it's just so case every few months, but it's just so hard for her to believe them when she hard for her to believe them when she hard for her to believe them when she keeps hearing the same thing. We're keeps hearing the same thing. We're keeps hearing the same thing. We're rechecking things. We're relooking rechecking things. We're relooking rechecking things. We're relooking through evidence, but each time nothing through evidence, but each time nothing through evidence, but each time nothing happens. To this day, she's still never happens. To this day, she's still never happens. To this day, she's still never been given a copy of his autopsy, and we been given a copy of his autopsy, and we been given a copy of his autopsy, and we couldn't obtain it through public couldn't obtain it through public couldn't obtain it through public records requests either. Authorities records requests either. Authorities records requests either. Authorities have also never released any kind of have also never released any kind of have also never released any kind of results related to firearms or firearm

results related to firearms or firearm results related to firearms or firearm testing. Like, I don't know what kind of testing. Like, I don't know what kind of testing. Like, I don't know what kind of gun was used in the shooting still. And gun was used in the shooting still. And gun was used in the shooting still. And I don't know if they ever confirmed I don't know if they ever confirmed I don't know if they ever confirmed Dave's story that the gun he handed over Dave's story that the gun he handed over Dave's story that the gun he handed over to them had never been fired. I was to them had never been fired. I was to them had never been fired. I was going to say if they haven't released going to say if they haven't released going to say if they haven't released what kind of gun was used on Nick, they what kind of gun was used on Nick, they what kind of gun was used on Nick, they don't know that what like we don't know don't know that what like we don't know don't know that what like we don't know that that that >> right. According to the police file, I >> right. According to the police file, I >> right. According to the police file, I know they got some lab results back in know they got some lab results back in know they got some lab results back in July of 2020. Now, what items were July of 2020. Now, what items were July of 2020. Now, what items were tested and where can't tell you that is tested and where can't tell you that is tested and where can't tell you that is all redacted and they have never shared all redacted and they have never shared all redacted and they have never shared that information with Alicia. The only that information with Alicia. The only that information with Alicia. The only unredacted part says that the only DNA unredacted part says that the only DNA unredacted part says that the only DNA profiles on the physical evidence profiles on the physical evidence profiles on the physical evidence collected belongs to either Nick or collected belongs to either Nick or collected belongs to either Nick or Dave. But the thing to remember is Dave. But the thing to remember is Dave. But the thing to remember is without context that could mean nothing. without context that could mean nothing. without context that could mean nothing. They both worked in that office. So if They both worked in that office. So if They both worked in that office. So if items were tested that are like items were tested that are like items were tested that are like regularly used by both of them, like regularly used by both of them, like regularly used by both of them, like that doesn't mean anything. Like Yeah. that doesn't mean anything. Like Yeah. that doesn't mean anything. Like Yeah. And even without someone else's DNA, And even without someone else's DNA, And even without someone else's DNA, like I keep thinking about the guy on like I keep thinking about the guy on like I keep thinking about the guy on the surveillance footage. Like how have the surveillance footage. Like how have the surveillance footage. Like how have they not identified him?

they not identified him? they not identified him? >> I know. I know. Alicia cannot help but >> I know. I know. Alicia cannot help but >> I know. I know. Alicia cannot help but wonder. The only thing she can think of, wonder. The only thing she can think of, wonder. The only thing she can think of, I should say, is like every she thinks I should say, is like every she thinks I should say, is like every she thinks like every time this case is handed to like every time this case is handed to like every time this case is handed to someone else, maybe things are like someone else, maybe things are like someone else, maybe things are like slipping through the cracks. slipping through the cracks. slipping through the cracks. >> It's a game of telephone. >> It's a game of telephone. >> It's a game of telephone. >> Yeah. And like she told us that there >> Yeah. And like she told us that there >> Yeah. And like she told us that there have been specific case details that have been specific case details that have been specific case details that she's mentioned while like speaking with she's mentioned while like speaking with she's mentioned while like speaking with detectives and they've been like, "Oh, detectives and they've been like, "Oh, detectives and they've been like, "Oh, we didn't know that." Which is like not we didn't know that." Which is like not we didn't know that." Which is like not the thing you want to hear from the guy the thing you want to hear from the guy the thing you want to hear from the guy in charge of solving your husband's in charge of solving your husband's in charge of solving your husband's case. And listen, people all over the case. And listen, people all over the case. And listen, people all over the internet have been quick to call out internet have been quick to call out internet have been quick to call out Gilbert Pey for all sorts of things, Gilbert Pey for all sorts of things, Gilbert Pey for all sorts of things, alleging corruption and dirty police alleging corruption and dirty police alleging corruption and dirty police work. Just look up the Gilbert Goons work. Just look up the Gilbert Goons work. Just look up the Gilbert Goons case if you want to get an idea. There case if you want to get an idea. There case if you want to get an idea. There is no proof of anything like that that is no proof of anything like that that is no proof of anything like that that we know of, but I can say that the we know of, but I can say that the we know of, but I can say that the department is extremely protective of department is extremely protective of department is extremely protective of their public records. And this is not their public records. And this is not their public records. And this is not the first case of theirs that we've even the first case of theirs that we've even the first case of theirs that we've even covered. I mean, you know, a couple of covered. I mean, you know, a couple of covered. I mean, you know, a couple of months ago, we released an episode on months ago, we released an episode on months ago, we released an episode on the 2022 shooting of Rachel Hansen, and the 2022 shooting of Rachel Hansen, and the 2022 shooting of Rachel Hansen, and her family expressed the same her family expressed the same her family expressed the same frustrations that Alicia has with frustrations that Alicia has with frustrations that Alicia has with Gilbert PD. And what's more, in February Gilbert PD. And what's more, in February Gilbert PD. And what's more, in February of 2026, this article came out in the of 2026, this article came out in the of 2026, this article came out in the Arizona Republic by Marissa Dominguez Arizona Republic by Marissa Dominguez Arizona Republic by Marissa Dominguez saying that the Arizona Attorney saying that the Arizona Attorney saying that the Arizona Attorney General's office is reviewing claims General's office is reviewing claims General's office is reviewing claims that the town of Gilbert may have that the town of Gilbert may have that the town of Gilbert may have illegally destroyed or withheld police illegally destroyed or withheld police illegally destroyed or withheld police records, which is an allegation that records, which is an allegation that records, which is an allegation that could have huge implications for could have huge implications for could have huge implications for unresolved cases in the community like unresolved cases in the community like unresolved cases in the community like NYX.

NYX. NYX. >> Yeah. Now, as of this recording, the >> Yeah. Now, as of this recording, the >> Yeah. Now, as of this recording, the attorney general's review has not attorney general's review has not attorney general's review has not confirmed any illegal destruction tied confirmed any illegal destruction tied confirmed any illegal destruction tied specifically to any of these cases, and specifically to any of these cases, and specifically to any of these cases, and Gilbert PD has denied all allegations of Gilbert PD has denied all allegations of Gilbert PD has denied all allegations of destroying or withholding records. But destroying or withholding records. But destroying or withholding records. But trust that we will be following this trust that we will be following this trust that we will be following this very closely. But this experience that very closely. But this experience that very closely. But this experience that she and others have had with Gilbert PD she and others have had with Gilbert PD she and others have had with Gilbert PD is one of the many reasons that Alicia is one of the many reasons that Alicia is one of the many reasons that Alicia began asking the department if she could began asking the department if she could began asking the department if she could see the surveillance footage from see the surveillance footage from see the surveillance footage from Gilbert Air herself. They say no to her Gilbert Air herself. They say no to her Gilbert Air herself. They say no to her a couple of times, but Alicia was not a couple of times, but Alicia was not a couple of times, but Alicia was not playing around. She put in a formal playing around. She put in a formal playing around. She put in a formal records request, hired a lawyer, and in records request, hired a lawyer, and in records request, hired a lawyer, and in an absolutely shocking turn of events, an absolutely shocking turn of events, an absolutely shocking turn of events, the PD actually agreed to let her see the PD actually agreed to let her see the PD actually agreed to let her see it. So, in March of 2025, she went into it. So, in March of 2025, she went into it. So, in March of 2025, she went into the station with Nick's mom, and the station with Nick's mom, and the station with Nick's mom, and together they sit down and watch this together they sit down and watch this together they sit down and watch this video. And Alicia notices a number of video. And Alicia notices a number of video. And Alicia notices a number of things on the footage police have that things on the footage police have that things on the footage police have that were not included in the report. She were not included in the report. She were not included in the report. She told us that right before the shooting told us that right before the shooting told us that right before the shooting when Dave was getting ready to leave the when Dave was getting ready to leave the when Dave was getting ready to leave the office, he went to the front door and office, he went to the front door and office, he went to the front door and like peeked through the blinds and you like peeked through the blinds and you like peeked through the blinds and you can see the red and silver truck pulling can see the red and silver truck pulling can see the red and silver truck pulling up on the outdoor camera as he does this up on the outdoor camera as he does this up on the outdoor camera as he does this and then he walks back into the office and then he walks back into the office and then he walks back into the office and Alicia is literally like in the and Alicia is literally like in the and Alicia is literally like in the police department. I mean, can you police department. I mean, can you police department. I mean, can you imagine? She's like viewing this footage imagine? She's like viewing this footage imagine? She's like viewing this footage and she's like, "Guys, pause the tape."

and she's like, "Guys, pause the tape." and she's like, "Guys, pause the tape." That's what she says. And she's like, That's what she says. And she's like, That's what she says. And she's like, "Isn't that enough right there? Why "Isn't that enough right there? Why "Isn't that enough right there? Why would he be peeking through the blinds would he be peeking through the blinds would he be peeking through the blinds unless he was like expecting somebody?" unless he was like expecting somebody?" unless he was like expecting somebody?" >> Yeah. And his story is that he went back >> Yeah. And his story is that he went back >> Yeah. And his story is that he went back into the office because he forgot into the office because he forgot into the office because he forgot something, right? something, right? something, right? >> That's what he told police, which like >> That's what he told police, which like >> That's what he told police, which like whatever. Maybe. But like, tell me, how whatever. Maybe. But like, tell me, how whatever. Maybe. But like, tell me, how many times have you like peaked out of many times have you like peaked out of many times have you like peaked out of the blinds before you leave the office the blinds before you leave the office the blinds before you leave the office at night? at night? at night? >> Only if I was waiting for someone. >> Only if I was waiting for someone. >> Only if I was waiting for someone. >> Yeah. And as Alicia continues watching, >> Yeah. And as Alicia continues watching, >> Yeah. And as Alicia continues watching, she sees the two men arrive in their she sees the two men arrive in their she sees the two men arrive in their bright colored shirts, masks, and she bright colored shirts, masks, and she bright colored shirts, masks, and she sees that they have gloves on, sees that they have gloves on, sees that they have gloves on, >> which explains the lack of suspect DNA >> which explains the lack of suspect DNA >> which explains the lack of suspect DNA at the scene. at the scene. at the scene. >> Yes. And she says that they're wearing >> Yes. And she says that they're wearing >> Yes. And she says that they're wearing these like big construction hats, too. these like big construction hats, too. these like big construction hats, too. Now, she says one guy is tall and Now, she says one guy is tall and Now, she says one guy is tall and slender. The other is like chubbier. slender. The other is like chubbier. slender. The other is like chubbier. >> I'm assuming that's the one that's >> I'm assuming that's the one that's >> I'm assuming that's the one that's caught on the tape. caught on the tape. caught on the tape. >> That's my guess. Yeah. And then of >> That's my guess. Yeah. And then of >> That's my guess. Yeah. And then of course everything happening in the course everything happening in the course everything happening in the office we know is off camera. But guess office we know is off camera. But guess office we know is off camera. But guess what she says? There's audio. Alicia what she says? There's audio. Alicia what she says? There's audio. Alicia says that she can hear Nick on the phone says that she can hear Nick on the phone says that she can hear Nick on the phone with her kids. And then all of a sudden with her kids. And then all of a sudden with her kids. And then all of a sudden you can hear a commotion and Nick just you can hear a commotion and Nick just you can hear a commotion and Nick just yelling for help.

yelling for help. yelling for help. >> And what about Dave? >> And what about Dave? >> And what about Dave? >> She says she doesn't hear Dave saying >> She says she doesn't hear Dave saying >> She says she doesn't hear Dave saying anything. And then all of a sudden like anything. And then all of a sudden like anything. And then all of a sudden like Nick comes into view. He's like running Nick comes into view. He's like running Nick comes into view. He's like running through the lobby. And she says that he through the lobby. And she says that he through the lobby. And she says that he was really close to the door when the was really close to the door when the was really close to the door when the suspect comes up behind him and just suspect comes up behind him and just suspect comes up behind him and just execution style shoots him once in the execution style shoots him once in the execution style shoots him once in the back of the head causing him to fall to back of the head causing him to fall to back of the head causing him to fall to the ground and that was it. I can't the ground and that was it. I can't the ground and that was it. I can't believe she had to watch that. I can't believe she had to watch that. I can't believe she had to watch that. I can't believe they let her watch that because believe they let her watch that because believe they let her watch that because like to her I mean not only is it like like to her I mean not only is it like like to her I mean not only is it like traumatic but like it just confirms traumatic but like it just confirms traumatic but like it just confirms everything that she's been feeling. everything that she's been feeling. everything that she's been feeling. >> That's what I'm saying. This just makes >> That's what I'm saying. This just makes >> That's what I'm saying. This just makes her more suspicious of Dave, who to this her more suspicious of Dave, who to this her more suspicious of Dave, who to this day still has not been charged or even day still has not been charged or even day still has not been charged or even named publicly as a person of interest named publicly as a person of interest named publicly as a person of interest or a suspect in this case. But how? I or a suspect in this case. But how? I or a suspect in this case. But how? I mean, from the jump, the PD ruled him mean, from the jump, the PD ruled him mean, from the jump, the PD ruled him out as the shooter from the surveillance out as the shooter from the surveillance out as the shooter from the surveillance footage. And according to Alicia, they footage. And according to Alicia, they footage. And according to Alicia, they never had been able to find a paper never had been able to find a paper never had been able to find a paper trail between him and the two suspects. trail between him and the two suspects. trail between him and the two suspects. Okay, but what's the cash situation, Okay, but what's the cash situation, Okay, but what's the cash situation, though? Like, where did the $45,000 go though? Like, where did the $45,000 go though? Like, where did the $45,000 go that he took out from the company before that he took out from the company before that he took out from the company before all this happened? Like, can we trace all this happened? Like, can we trace all this happened? Like, can we trace where that went or where every penny of where that went or where every penny of where that went or where every penny of the insurance payout went? Like, you're the insurance payout went? Like, you're the insurance payout went? Like, you're not writing checks to hit men. Right.

not writing checks to hit men. Right. not writing checks to hit men. Right. >> Right. This is like I would be looking >> Right. This is like I would be looking >> Right. This is like I would be looking for missing money. for missing money. for missing money. >> Also, I don't understand how they can >> Also, I don't understand how they can >> Also, I don't understand how they can say that. Like, oh, like we can't find a say that. Like, oh, like we can't find a say that. Like, oh, like we can't find a paper trail between the two suspects paper trail between the two suspects paper trail between the two suspects when supposedly you don't know who the when supposedly you don't know who the when supposedly you don't know who the two suspects are. Like, two suspects are. Like, two suspects are. Like, >> right, >> right, >> right, >> the paper trail could lead you to them. >> the paper trail could lead you to them. >> the paper trail could lead you to them. Like, Like, Like, >> yeah. To me, in order to rule out a >> yeah. To me, in order to rule out a >> yeah. To me, in order to rule out a connection definitively, you would have connection definitively, you would have connection definitively, you would have to dig deep into this man, right? do a to dig deep into this man, right? do a to dig deep into this man, right? do a financial audit almost. financial audit almost. financial audit almost. >> There are forensic accountants for a >> There are forensic accountants for a >> There are forensic accountants for a reason. reason. reason. >> Not like you have to do more than one >> Not like you have to do more than one >> Not like you have to do more than one follow-up interview, which is like I see follow-up interview, which is like I see follow-up interview, which is like I see a follow-up interview. Again, lots of a follow-up interview. Again, lots of a follow-up interview. Again, lots of redacted stuff in the file and I don't redacted stuff in the file and I don't redacted stuff in the file and I don't know what are in those pages. There are know what are in those pages. There are know what are in those pages. There are over 200 of them, remember? But even 200 over 200 of them, remember? But even 200 over 200 of them, remember? But even 200 pages, it doesn't feel like enough if pages, it doesn't feel like enough if pages, it doesn't feel like enough if they were to have investigated Dave or they were to have investigated Dave or they were to have investigated Dave or even his like past financial crimes. I even his like past financial crimes. I even his like past financial crimes. I forgot about those. like he had a a forgot about those. like he had a a forgot about those. like he had a a history of like scammy [ __ ] like fraud history of like scammy [ __ ] like fraud history of like scammy [ __ ] like fraud and stuff like yes please dig into and stuff like yes please dig into and stuff like yes please dig into those. those. those. >> Yes, someone's past can tell you a lot >> Yes, someone's past can tell you a lot >> Yes, someone's past can tell you a lot about them which is why we felt it about them which is why we felt it about them which is why we felt it necessary to look into Dave's past to necessary to look into Dave's past to necessary to look into Dave's past to tell this story.

tell this story. tell this story. >> Always go a layer deeper. >> Always go a layer deeper. >> Always go a layer deeper. >> And listen, what our reporter Nicole >> And listen, what our reporter Nicole >> And listen, what our reporter Nicole found us headirst down a rabbit hole found us headirst down a rabbit hole found us headirst down a rabbit hole that we could have never seen coming. that we could have never seen coming. that we could have never seen coming. You see, it turns out nearly seven years You see, it turns out nearly seven years You see, it turns out nearly seven years before Nick was shot, someone else close before Nick was shot, someone else close before Nick was shot, someone else close to Dave died under mysterious to Dave died under mysterious to Dave died under mysterious circumstances. Now, this wasn't circumstances. Now, this wasn't circumstances. Now, this wasn't mentioned in the police report or online mentioned in the police report or online mentioned in the police report or online news coverage of Nick's case at all. In news coverage of Nick's case at all. In news coverage of Nick's case at all. In fact, there is no media coverage of this fact, there is no media coverage of this fact, there is no media coverage of this other case at all. And that other case other case at all. And that other case other case at all. And that other case is the death of Laura Sweetman, Dave's is the death of Laura Sweetman, Dave's is the death of Laura Sweetman, Dave's wife. wife. wife. What? What we found needs an entire What? What we found needs an entire What? What we found needs an entire episode of its own. So, crime junkies, episode of its own. So, crime junkies, episode of its own. So, crime junkies, come back next Monday to hear Laura come back next Monday to hear Laura come back next Monday to hear Laura Sweetman's story. Or you can listen to Sweetman's story. Or you can listen to Sweetman's story. Or you can listen to it right now if you're in the fan club. it right now if you're in the fan club. it right now if you're in the fan club. And if you're not a member of the Crime And if you're not a member of the Crime And if you're not a member of the Crime Junkie fan club, now is the perfect time Junkie fan club, now is the perfect time Junkie fan club, now is the perfect time because now through April 14th, you can because now through April 14th, you can because now through April 14th, you can join the Crime Junkie fan club for free.

join the Crime Junkie fan club for free. join the Crime Junkie fan club for free. So, check out the link in our show notes So, check out the link in our show notes So, check out the link in our show notes to get your first month on us. Listen, to get your first month on us. Listen, to get your first month on us. Listen, make no mistake. Alicia isn't going make no mistake. Alicia isn't going make no mistake. Alicia isn't going away. She feels like it's up to her to away. She feels like it's up to her to away. She feels like it's up to her to keep Nick's story alive. And she does keep Nick's story alive. And she does keep Nick's story alive. And she does every press interview she can. She posts every press interview she can. She posts every press interview she can. She posts on TikTok. She continues meeting with on TikTok. She continues meeting with on TikTok. She continues meeting with the police department. And she'll keep the police department. And she'll keep the police department. And she'll keep it all going until the people who killed it all going until the people who killed it all going until the people who killed Nick are finally behind bars. So, if you Nick are finally behind bars. So, if you Nick are finally behind bars. So, if you have any information about the 2020 have any information about the 2020 have any information about the 2020 death of Nicholas Nick Cordova in death of Nicholas Nick Cordova in death of Nicholas Nick Cordova in Gilbert, Arizona, you can reach out to Gilbert, Arizona, you can reach out to Gilbert, Arizona, you can reach out to the Gilbert Police Department at the Gilbert Police Department at the Gilbert Police Department at 4805036500. Or if you prefer to remain anonymous, Or if you prefer to remain anonymous, you can reach out to Silent Witness at you can reach out to Silent Witness at you can reach out to Silent Witness at 48-948-6377. The posted reward for information is now The posted reward for information is now up to $20,000. And as always, you can up to $20,000. And as always, you can up to $20,000. And as always, you can reach out to us by emailing reach out to us by emailing reach out to us by emailing [email protected]. [email protected]. [email protected]. You can find all the source material for You can find all the source material for You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, this episode on our website, this episode on our website, crimejunkkey.com. And you can follow us crimejunkkey.com. And you can follow us crimejunkkey.com. And you can follow us on Instagram at crimejunkiepodcast. on Instagram at crimejunkiepodcast. on Instagram at crimejunkiepodcast. We'll be back next week with Laura We'll be back next week with Laura We'll be back next week with Laura Sweetman's story, but don't forget you Sweetman's story, but don't forget you Sweetman's story, but don't forget you can listen right now by joining the can listen right now by joining the can listen right now by joining the Crime Junkie fan club. Links in the show Crime Junkie fan club. Links in the show Crime Junkie fan club. Links in the show notes.