What Happened During Carmen Van Huss's Final 30 Minutes?

Hi, crime junkies. What you're about to Hi, crime junkies. What you're about to hear is an episode that we originally hear is an episode that we originally hear is an episode that we originally recorded and released in the Crime recorded and released in the Crime recorded and released in the Crime Junkie fan club back in January when Junkie fan club back in January when Junkie fan club back in January when this case was still actively unfolding. this case was still actively unfolding. this case was still actively unfolding. But in the months since then, there have But in the months since then, there have But in the months since then, there have been some major developments. So today, been some major developments. So today, been some major developments. So today, we wanted to bring this story to a we wanted to bring this story to a we wanted to bring this story to a broader audience. You'll get to hear the broader audience. You'll get to hear the broader audience. You'll get to hear the full episode that has never been full episode that has never been full episode that has never been released wide. And then I'm going to released wide. And then I'm going to released wide. And then I'm going to come back in towards the end and pick up come back in towards the end and pick up come back in towards the end and pick up where our reporting in January left off where our reporting in January left off where our reporting in January left off to tell you how this case was ultimately to tell you how this case was ultimately to tell you how this case was ultimately resolved. resolved. resolved. Hi crime junkies. I'm your host Ashley Hi crime junkies. I'm your host Ashley Hi crime junkies. I'm your host Ashley Flowers. Flowers. Flowers. >> And I'm [music] Brit. And today's story >> And I'm [music] Brit. And today's story >> And I'm [music] Brit. And today's story begins at the Turtle Creek Apartments, begins at the Turtle Creek Apartments, begins at the Turtle Creek Apartments, part of a gated community on the part of a gated community on the part of a gated community on the northwest side of Indianapolis, Indiana. northwest side of Indianapolis, Indiana. northwest side of Indianapolis, Indiana. The complex is made up of two buildings, The complex is made up of two buildings, The complex is made up of two buildings, four wings and three floors per wing. four wings and three floors per wing. four wings and three floors per wing. That's 262 apartments in total. And on That's 262 apartments in total. And on That's 262 apartments in total. And on March 23rd, 1993, around 1:00 a.m., March 23rd, 1993, around 1:00 a.m., March 23rd, 1993, around 1:00 a.m., [music] [music] [music] something terrible is happening inside something terrible is happening inside something terrible is happening inside one of them. Neighbors who are awake one of them. Neighbors who are awake one of them. Neighbors who are awake hear loud screams coming from apartment hear loud screams coming from apartment hear loud screams coming from apartment 302A. And those who weren't awake before 302A. And those who weren't awake before 302A. And those who weren't awake before are now. It's so loud and the walls are are now. It's so loud and the walls are are now. It's so loud and the walls are so thin that they can hear what this so thin that they can hear what this so thin that they can hear what this woman is saying. Get off me. She repeats woman is saying. Get off me. She repeats woman is saying. Get off me. She repeats this between crying and banging noises.

this between crying and banging noises. this between crying and banging noises. Get off me. There is no mistaking these Get off me. There is no mistaking these Get off me. There is no mistaking these cries for horseplay or teenage antics, cries for horseplay or teenage antics, cries for horseplay or teenage antics, even though they know the tenant is even though they know the tenant is even though they know the tenant is young, a 19-year-old girl named Carmen young, a 19-year-old girl named Carmen young, a 19-year-old girl named Carmen Van Hus. But no one cares. Our reporter Van Hus. But no one cares. Our reporter Van Hus. But no one cares. Our reporter Nicole Kagan spoke to one neighbor who Nicole Kagan spoke to one neighbor who Nicole Kagan spoke to one neighbor who lived in the apartments right across the lived in the apartments right across the lived in the apartments right across the hall from Carmen's and he said, "I just hall from Carmen's and he said, "I just hall from Carmen's and he said, "I just heard a scream in the middle of the heard a scream in the middle of the heard a scream in the middle of the night. [music] I turned over and went night. [music] I turned over and went night. [music] I turned over and went back to bed. That's all I know. Not a back to bed. That's all I know. Not a back to bed. That's all I know. Not a single person gets up. Not a single single person gets up. Not a single single person gets up. Not a single person goes to her door. No one even person goes to her door. No one even person goes to her door. No one even bothers to pick up the phone and call bothers to pick up the phone and call bothers to pick up the phone and call 911. For 30 minutes, she screams and 911. For 30 minutes, she screams and 911. For 30 minutes, she screams and struggles before one set of hurried struggles before one set of hurried struggles before one set of hurried footprints can be heard, leaving and footprints can be heard, leaving and footprints can be heard, leaving and disappearing into the night, and disappearing into the night, and disappearing into the night, and everyone just goes back to sleep. For everyone just goes back to sleep. For everyone just goes back to sleep. For decades, people who should have helped decades, people who should have helped decades, people who should have helped Carmen in life and in death have turned Carmen in life and in death have turned Carmen in life and in death have turned their back on her. But thanks to one their back on her. But thanks to one their back on her. But thanks to one tenacious man who believes in doing the tenacious man who believes in doing the tenacious man who believes in doing the right thing, someone has finally been right thing, someone has finally been right thing, someone has finally been charged with Carmen's murder. And the charged with Carmen's murder. And the charged with Carmen's murder. And the trial that decides his fate is about to trial that decides his fate is about to trial that decides his fate is about to begin.

Though none of Carmen Van Hus's Though none of Carmen Van Hus's neighbors could be bothered to call neighbors could be bothered to call neighbors could be bothered to call police or check on her when they heard police or check on her when they heard police or check on her when they heard her screaming for 30 minutes straight, her screaming for 30 minutes straight, her screaming for 30 minutes straight, at least one person did take the time to at least one person did take the time to at least one person did take the time to call the apartment management and file a call the apartment management and file a call the apartment management and file a noise complaint. There was a handwritten noise complaint. There was a handwritten noise complaint. There was a handwritten note from management tacked to her door note from management tacked to her door note from management tacked to her door when Carmen's dad, James, arrived a day when Carmen's dad, James, arrived a day when Carmen's dad, James, arrived a day later to check on her. He had gotten a later to check on her. He had gotten a later to check on her. He had gotten a voicemail from Carmen's friend, Missy, voicemail from Carmen's friend, Missy, voicemail from Carmen's friend, Missy, who said that Carmen had been a no- call who said that Carmen had been a no- call who said that Carmen had been a no- call no-show for work that day, and she had no-show for work that day, and she had no-show for work that day, and she had tried to go check in on her, but she tried to go check in on her, but she tried to go check in on her, but she wasn't really familiar with where she wasn't really familiar with where she wasn't really familiar with where she lived. She ended up kind of getting lost lived. She ended up kind of getting lost lived. She ended up kind of getting lost on the way to her complex. So, she's on the way to her complex. So, she's on the way to her complex. So, she's hoping that Carmen's dad could go by and hoping that Carmen's dad could go by and hoping that Carmen's dad could go by and check on her. He likely saw the note check on her. He likely saw the note check on her. He likely saw the note first, the one scolding his daughter for first, the one scolding his daughter for first, the one scolding his daughter for being too loud and reminding her to be being too loud and reminding her to be being too loud and reminding her to be more considerate of her neighbors moving more considerate of her neighbors moving more considerate of her neighbors moving forward. But there would be no moving forward. But there would be no moving forward. But there would be no moving forward. He knew that instantly when he forward. He knew that instantly when he forward. He knew that instantly when he opened the unlocked door of the studio opened the unlocked door of the studio opened the unlocked door of the studio apartment. I mean, he had a direct line apartment. I mean, he had a direct line apartment. I mean, he had a direct line of sight to his daughter, clearly dead, of sight to his daughter, clearly dead, of sight to his daughter, clearly dead, lying on the floor next to her [music] lying on the floor next to her [music] lying on the floor next to her [music] bed covered in blood. And the whole bed covered in blood. And the whole bed covered in blood. And the whole apartment was a mess. I mean, the living apartment was a mess. I mean, the living apartment was a mess. I mean, the living room table was knocked over. Clothes room table was knocked over. Clothes room table was knocked over. Clothes were scattered across the floor, and were scattered across the floor, and were scattered across the floor, and there was blood everywhere. It was there was blood everywhere. It was there was blood everywhere. It was splattered on the walls and smeared in splattered on the walls and smeared in splattered on the walls and smeared in the kitchen. I mean, James couldn't bear the kitchen. I mean, James couldn't bear the kitchen. I mean, James couldn't bear to take another step inside. So, he to take another step inside. So, he to take another step inside. So, he belineed to the neighbor's apartment and belineed to the neighbor's apartment and belineed to the neighbor's apartment and banged on the door so he could use their banged on the door so he could use their banged on the door so he could use their phone to call 911. When Marian County phone to call 911. When Marian County phone to call 911. When Marian County Sheriff's detectives responded that Sheriff's detectives responded that Sheriff's detectives responded that evening, Sergeant David Wils takes

evening, Sergeant David Wils takes evening, Sergeant David Wils takes charge of the investigation while lab charge of the investigation while lab charge of the investigation while lab techs process the scene. I mean, it's techs process the scene. I mean, it's techs process the scene. I mean, it's obvious to them that there was a obvious to them that there was a obvious to them that there was a struggle inside Carmen's apartment, but struggle inside Carmen's apartment, but struggle inside Carmen's apartment, but they suspect right away that the they suspect right away that the they suspect right away that the interaction with her killer may have interaction with her killer may have interaction with her killer may have actually started out friendly because actually started out friendly because actually started out friendly because there's no sign at all of forced entry. there's no sign at all of forced entry. there's no sign at all of forced entry. And there are some fast food cups and And there are some fast food cups and And there are some fast food cups and some bottles of beer that make it seem some bottles of beer that make it seem some bottles of beer that make it seem like she might have been maybe even like she might have been maybe even like she might have been maybe even eating a meal with someone before things eating a meal with someone before things eating a meal with someone before things took a turn. took a turn. took a turn. >> And how do they know that that stuff is >> And how do they know that that stuff is >> And how do they know that that stuff is from that night? Well, I mean, they from that night? Well, I mean, they from that night? Well, I mean, they don't I mean, not for sure. But food or don't I mean, not for sure. But food or don't I mean, not for sure. But food or no food, they still end up thinking that no food, they still end up thinking that no food, they still end up thinking that things started out friendly with her things started out friendly with her things started out friendly with her killer because after they talk to killer because after they talk to killer because after they talk to neighbors, many of them report having neighbors, many of them report having neighbors, many of them report having heard Carmen come home at around 11:00 heard Carmen come home at around 11:00 heard Carmen come home at around 11:00 p.m. and it sounded like she was with a p.m. and it sounded like she was with a p.m. and it sounded like she was with a man. They hear the two of them talking, man. They hear the two of them talking, man. They hear the two of them talking, laughing as they walk up the hall to her laughing as they walk up the hall to her laughing as they walk up the hall to her door. door. door. >> And then like 2 hours later, she's >> And then like 2 hours later, she's >> And then like 2 hours later, she's screaming for help. screaming for help. screaming for help. >> Yeah. And Lord only knows what happened >> Yeah. And Lord only knows what happened >> Yeah. And Lord only knows what happened in those 2 hours. But the escalation was in those 2 hours. But the escalation was in those 2 hours. But the escalation was severe. Carmen had 60 stab wounds to her severe. Carmen had 60 stab wounds to her severe. Carmen had 60 stab wounds to her head, face, body, and genitalia. And the head, face, body, and genitalia. And the head, face, body, and genitalia. And the attack was apparently so violent that attack was apparently so violent that attack was apparently so violent that the stab wounds to her head penetrated the stab wounds to her head penetrated the stab wounds to her head penetrated her skull.

her skull. her skull. >> And what was the murder weapon? Like a >> And what was the murder weapon? Like a >> And what was the murder weapon? Like a knife? knife? knife? >> That is actually still unknown. Now, >> That is actually still unknown. Now, >> That is actually still unknown. Now, multiple different news outlets over the multiple different news outlets over the multiple different news outlets over the years have published that Carmen was years have published that Carmen was years have published that Carmen was likely stabbed to death with a likely stabbed to death with a likely stabbed to death with a screwdriver or a pocketk knife. But screwdriver or a pocketk knife. But screwdriver or a pocketk knife. But investigators told our reporter that investigators told our reporter that investigators told our reporter that while the wounds were consistent with while the wounds were consistent with while the wounds were consistent with something like that, something small and something like that, something small and something like that, something small and pointed, could have been a screwdriver, pointed, could have been a screwdriver, pointed, could have been a screwdriver, could have been a pocketk knife, the could have been a pocketk knife, the could have been a pocketk knife, the actual murder weapon has never been actual murder weapon has never been actual murder weapon has never been [music] found. And neither of those [music] found. And neither of those [music] found. And neither of those objects turn up in Carmen's apartment or objects turn up in Carmen's apartment or objects turn up in Carmen's apartment or anywhere else in the course of their anywhere else in the course of their anywhere else in the course of their investigation. There is plenty of other investigation. There is plenty of other investigation. There is plenty of other evidence, though. They collect evidence evidence, though. They collect evidence evidence, though. They collect evidence from Carmen's body at autopsy and from from Carmen's body at autopsy and from from Carmen's body at autopsy and from the scene. They collect a bedspread, the scene. They collect a bedspread, the scene. They collect a bedspread, clothing, bloodied items in the kitchen clothing, bloodied items in the kitchen clothing, bloodied items in the kitchen that the asalent likely touched. that the asalent likely touched. that the asalent likely touched. Notably, a bloody white paper bag in the Notably, a bloody white paper bag in the Notably, a bloody white paper bag in the kitchen trash can. But because this is kitchen trash can. But because this is kitchen trash can. But because this is 1993, DNA testing isn't very widespread 1993, DNA testing isn't very widespread 1993, DNA testing isn't very widespread or readily available, and there's or readily available, and there's or readily available, and there's nothing I can find showing that these nothing I can find showing that these nothing I can find showing that these things go to a lab for testing back things go to a lab for testing back things go to a lab for testing back [music] then. They do dust the apartment [music] then. They do dust the apartment [music] then. They do dust the apartment for prints, and they find a number of for prints, and they find a number of for prints, and they find a number of latent smudges, but there are no matches latent smudges, but there are no matches latent smudges, but there are no matches to anyone in the system. And it's not to anyone in the system. And it's not to anyone in the system. And it's not even clear if these prints belong to an even clear if these prints belong to an even clear if these prints belong to an attacker, they could have just belonged attacker, they could have just belonged attacker, they could have just belonged to someone that Carmen had over. We to someone that Carmen had over. We to someone that Carmen had over. We don't even know if they're relative.

don't even know if they're relative. don't even know if they're relative. >> We have no idea when the prince got >> We have no idea when the prince got >> We have no idea when the prince got there. there. there. >> So, with everything they have at that >> So, with everything they have at that >> So, with everything they have at that point, [music] evidence of a late night point, [music] evidence of a late night point, [music] evidence of a late night meal, noises of laughter in the hallway, meal, noises of laughter in the hallway, meal, noises of laughter in the hallway, and no forced entry, investigators feel and no forced entry, investigators feel and no forced entry, investigators feel pretty certain that Carmen's attacker pretty certain that Carmen's attacker pretty certain that Carmen's attacker was someone she must have known well, was someone she must have known well, was someone she must have known well, someone she trusted. So, investigators someone she trusted. So, investigators someone she trusted. So, investigators start making a list of Carmen's start making a list of Carmen's start making a list of Carmen's boyfriends, current and former. And it's boyfriends, current and former. And it's boyfriends, current and former. And it's not a short list. Carmen's sister, Pam not a short list. Carmen's sister, Pam not a short list. Carmen's sister, Pam Francis, who we spoke to for this Francis, who we spoke to for this Francis, who we spoke to for this episode, said that in her eyes, these episode, said that in her eyes, these episode, said that in her eyes, these relationships were just Carmen's way of relationships were just Carmen's way of relationships were just Carmen's way of seeking acceptance. She had this innate seeking acceptance. She had this innate seeking acceptance. She had this innate desire to be loved by everyone, which desire to be loved by everyone, which desire to be loved by everyone, which Pam says was likely a result of her Pam says was likely a result of her Pam says was likely a result of her upbringing. You see, Carmen's family upbringing. You see, Carmen's family upbringing. You see, Carmen's family situation was a bit complicated. When situation was a bit complicated. When situation was a bit complicated. When she was three, her biological parents, she was three, her biological parents, she was three, her biological parents, Gail and James, sent her to live with Gail and James, sent her to live with Gail and James, sent her to live with her aunt, Gertie Shot. Gail and James, her aunt, Gertie Shot. Gail and James, her aunt, Gertie Shot. Gail and James, like weren't together at the time. like weren't together at the time. like weren't together at the time. Carmen was their first child and they Carmen was their first child and they Carmen was their first child and they just knew that they weren't going to be just knew that they weren't going to be just knew that they weren't going to be able to give her the upbringing that able to give her the upbringing that able to give her the upbringing that they wanted. So Carmen joined the shot they wanted. So Carmen joined the shot they wanted. So Carmen joined the shot family as the youngest of eight family as the youngest of eight family as the youngest of eight children. And listen, by all accounts, children. And listen, by all accounts, children. And listen, by all accounts, they raised her as their own. Carmen they raised her as their own. Carmen they raised her as their own. Carmen considered all of the shot kids her considered all of the shot kids her considered all of the shot kids her siblings. She called Gertie and her siblings. She called Gertie and her siblings. She called Gertie and her husband Bob mom and dad.

husband Bob mom and dad. husband Bob mom and dad. >> And did she still see her biological >> And did she still see her biological >> And did she still see her biological parents at all at that time? parents at all at that time? parents at all at that time? >> Yeah. So the shots actually even like >> Yeah. So the shots actually even like >> Yeah. So the shots actually even like you can tell how much they loved her. you can tell how much they loved her. you can tell how much they loved her. They moved from Illinois to Indiana when They moved from Illinois to Indiana when They moved from Illinois to Indiana when they took Carmen in so that she could they took Carmen in so that she could they took Carmen in so that she could still be close to her dad, James. But still be close to her dad, James. But still be close to her dad, James. But according to Pam, who was like the next according to Pam, who was like the next according to Pam, who was like the next youngest girl in the shot family, James youngest girl in the shot family, James youngest girl in the shot family, James lived a very different lifestyle. So the lived a very different lifestyle. So the lived a very different lifestyle. So the shots are very like by the book. They're shots are very like by the book. They're shots are very like by the book. They're loving, they're rule following this loving, they're rule following this loving, they're rule following this Catholic family. James' life was much Catholic family. James' life was much Catholic family. James' life was much less structured. I mean, he had some less structured. I mean, he had some less structured. I mean, he had some substance use problems. Carmen is her substance use problems. Carmen is her substance use problems. Carmen is her dad. She loved him regardless. She dad. She loved him regardless. She dad. She loved him regardless. She idolized him even. And in Pam's eyes, idolized him even. And in Pam's eyes, idolized him even. And in Pam's eyes, straddling these two completely straddling these two completely straddling these two completely different environments was really different environments was really different environments was really difficult for Carmen. She would try to difficult for Carmen. She would try to difficult for Carmen. She would try to imitate the things that she saw her dad imitate the things that she saw her dad imitate the things that she saw her dad doing to feel closer to him, smoking, doing to feel closer to him, smoking, doing to feel closer to him, smoking, drinking, living on the edge, which was drinking, living on the edge, which was drinking, living on the edge, which was okay around him, but then not so much okay around him, but then not so much okay around him, but then not so much around the shots. And to add to all of around the shots. And to add to all of around the shots. And to add to all of this, when Carmen was 14 or 15, a third this, when Carmen was 14 or 15, a third this, when Carmen was 14 or 15, a third household came into the mix when she household came into the mix when she household came into the mix when she reconnected with her biological mother.

reconnected with her biological mother. reconnected with her biological mother. And so for a teenager bouncing back and And so for a teenager bouncing back and And so for a teenager bouncing back and forth between these different lives, forth between these different lives, forth between these different lives, it's a lot to navigate. And Pam says it's a lot to navigate. And Pam says it's a lot to navigate. And Pam says that this need to be loved by everyone that this need to be loved by everyone that this need to be loved by everyone like Carmen carried it with her all her like Carmen carried it with her all her like Carmen carried it with her all her life. She had a large group of friends life. She had a large group of friends life. She had a large group of friends that were into punk rock and skate parks that were into punk rock and skate parks that were into punk rock and skate parks and sometimes recreational drugs. So she and sometimes recreational drugs. So she and sometimes recreational drugs. So she got into those things, too. But got into those things, too. But got into those things, too. But according to Pam, these friends were according to Pam, these friends were according to Pam, these friends were obviously more aligned with like obviously more aligned with like obviously more aligned with like Carmen's dad's lifestyle. And so Carmen Carmen's dad's lifestyle. And so Carmen Carmen's dad's lifestyle. And so Carmen kept them and her various boyfriends kept them and her various boyfriends kept them and her various boyfriends pretty removed from the shot family. So pretty removed from the shot family. So pretty removed from the shot family. So there's a lot happening in Carmen's there's a lot happening in Carmen's there's a lot happening in Carmen's formative years. She never finished high formative years. She never finished high formative years. She never finished high school, but she did get her GED. And at school, but she did get her GED. And at school, but she did get her GED. And at the time of her death, things were the time of her death, things were the time of her death, things were actually starting to really fall into actually starting to really fall into actually starting to really fall into place for her. I mean, after a stint of place for her. I mean, after a stint of place for her. I mean, after a stint of living in her own car, she finally moved living in her own car, she finally moved living in her own car, she finally moved into a studio apartment. She had a into a studio apartment. She had a into a studio apartment. She had a boyfriend of about a year who she was boyfriend of about a year who she was boyfriend of about a year who she was totally in love with. And along with totally in love with. And along with totally in love with. And along with working a stable job at Pizza Hut, she working a stable job at Pizza Hut, she working a stable job at Pizza Hut, she was following her passion by taking was following her passion by taking was following her passion by taking classes at the Heron School of Art and classes at the Heron School of Art and classes at the Heron School of Art and Design. Pam said everything finally Design. Pam said everything finally Design. Pam said everything finally seemed like it was working. But early seemed like it was working. But early seemed like it was working. But early on, at least, Pam feels like on, at least, Pam feels like on, at least, Pam feels like investigators investigators investigators see the crowd of people Carmen hung out see the crowd of people Carmen hung out see the crowd of people Carmen hung out with and they kind of just brush her with and they kind of just brush her with and they kind of just brush her death off like, well, this is the death off like, well, this is the death off like, well, this is the lifestyle she chose to live sort of lifestyle she chose to live sort of lifestyle she chose to live sort of thing. And so in their minds, it's just thing. And so in their minds, it's just thing. And so in their minds, it's just a matter of finding out which friend or a matter of finding out which friend or a matter of finding out which friend or ex-boyfriend is responsible, ex-boyfriend is responsible, ex-boyfriend is responsible, >> which is incredibly frustrating, >> which is incredibly frustrating, >> which is incredibly frustrating, especially like does the family feel especially like does the family feel especially like does the family feel like they should be looking somewhere like they should be looking somewhere like they should be looking somewhere else? Like is there another direction else? Like is there another direction else? Like is there another direction the family wants them to be going in?

the family wants them to be going in? the family wants them to be going in? >> It seems like they don't know what to >> It seems like they don't know what to >> It seems like they don't know what to think. I mean, even her friends don't think. I mean, even her friends don't think. I mean, even her friends don't really know which direction to point really know which direction to point really know which direction to point investigators in. But as they start investigators in. But as they start investigators in. But as they start watching the sheriff's office pull watching the sheriff's office pull watching the sheriff's office pull Carmen's circle of friends in one by one Carmen's circle of friends in one by one Carmen's circle of friends in one by one for questioning, Missy and Pam both said for questioning, Missy and Pam both said for questioning, Missy and Pam both said that everyone was suspicious of one that everyone was suspicious of one that everyone was suspicious of one another. Even the funeral was its own another. Even the funeral was its own another. Even the funeral was its own traumatizing experience because they traumatizing experience because they traumatizing experience because they spent the whole time looking around like spent the whole time looking around like spent the whole time looking around like wondering who among them was a killer. >> 911 emergency. >> 911 emergency. For 40 minutes, [music] a man held six For 40 minutes, [music] a man held six For 40 minutes, [music] a man held six women captive inside Elaine Bryant store women captive inside Elaine Bryant store women captive inside Elaine Bryant store in Tinley Park, Illinois. [music] Five in Tinley Park, Illinois. [music] Five in Tinley Park, Illinois. [music] Five were executed and the killer escaped. were executed and the killer escaped. were executed and the killer escaped. >> The search continues for the gunman. >> The search continues for the gunman. >> The search continues for the gunman. >> Authorities have his face, voice, and >> Authorities have his face, voice, and >> Authorities have his face, voice, and possible DNA. But 18 years later, this possible DNA. But 18 years later, this possible DNA. But 18 years later, this case is [music] still unsolved. case is [music] still unsolved. case is [music] still unsolved. >> There was no doubt in my mind that we >> There was no doubt in my mind that we >> There was no doubt in my mind that we were going to get this guy and I was were going to get this guy and I was were going to get this guy and I was wrong. wrong. wrong. >> I'm Dileia Dera and this is Counterclock >> I'm Dileia Dera and this is Counterclock >> I'm Dileia Dera and this is Counterclock season 8. Listen now wherever you get season 8. Listen now wherever you get season 8. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts.

To try and figure out who was with To try and figure out who was with Carmen the night she died, police needed Carmen the night she died, police needed Carmen the night she died, police needed to retrace her last movements. What they to retrace her last movements. What they to retrace her last movements. What they pieced together was that on Monday pieced together was that on Monday pieced together was that on Monday night, March 22nd, Carmen spent the night, March 22nd, Carmen spent the night, March 22nd, Carmen spent the evening visiting her grandmother in the evening visiting her grandmother in the evening visiting her grandmother in the hospital with her dad, James, and James' hospital with her dad, James, and James' hospital with her dad, James, and James' three-year-old son. Carmen drove them three-year-old son. Carmen drove them three-year-old son. Carmen drove them there in her boyfriend Rob's car because there in her boyfriend Rob's car because there in her boyfriend Rob's car because hers was in the shop and she dropped hers was in the shop and she dropped hers was in the shop and she dropped them off back at home at around 9:30 them off back at home at around 9:30 them off back at home at around 9:30 p.m. Now, before she left, James asked p.m. Now, before she left, James asked p.m. Now, before she left, James asked Carmen to just stay the night there with Carmen to just stay the night there with Carmen to just stay the night there with them, but she told him she needed to get them, but she told him she needed to get them, but she told him she needed to get home to wash her Pizza Hut uniform for home to wash her Pizza Hut uniform for home to wash her Pizza Hut uniform for work the next day. Now, the drive back work the next day. Now, the drive back work the next day. Now, the drive back to her apartment would have taken about to her apartment would have taken about to her apartment would have taken about 30 minutes. But I think she got home 30 minutes. But I think she got home 30 minutes. But I think she got home quick because when they talked to her quick because when they talked to her quick because when they talked to her boyfriend Rob, he tells them and call boyfriend Rob, he tells them and call boyfriend Rob, he tells them and call logs confirm that he spoke to Carmen logs confirm that he spoke to Carmen logs confirm that he spoke to Carmen from where he was in Arizona at 9:49 from where he was in Arizona at 9:49 from where he was in Arizona at 9:49 p.m. Eastern time on March 22nd. And p.m. Eastern time on March 22nd. And p.m. Eastern time on March 22nd. And interestingly, when they spoke, she told interestingly, when they spoke, she told interestingly, when they spoke, she told him that she had run into an old friend him that she had run into an old friend him that she had run into an old friend that night. that night. that night. >> When did that happen? And who was the >> When did that happen? And who was the >> When did that happen? And who was the friend? friend? friend? >> Rob says that Carmen told him she didn't >> Rob says that Carmen told him she didn't >> Rob says that Carmen told him she didn't remember this friend's name. No. As for remember this friend's name. No. As for remember this friend's name. No. As for when though, I don't know because it's when though, I don't know because it's when though, I don't know because it's not like she would have had time to stop not like she would have had time to stop not like she would have had time to stop anywhere, anywhere, anywhere, >> right?

>> right? >> right? >> If she's talking to him at 9:49 p.m., >> If she's talking to him at 9:49 p.m., >> If she's talking to him at 9:49 p.m., she had to have gone straight home. Not she had to have gone straight home. Not she had to have gone straight home. Not even enough time to stop and get fast even enough time to stop and get fast even enough time to stop and get fast food. Carmen sister Pam Francis told food. Carmen sister Pam Francis told food. Carmen sister Pam Francis told Nicole that she thought the food or like Nicole that she thought the food or like Nicole that she thought the food or like the stuff in her apartment the stuff in her apartment the stuff in her apartment [clears throat] might have been from [clears throat] might have been from [clears throat] might have been from Subway. And she was pretty sure she Subway. And she was pretty sure she Subway. And she was pretty sure she remembered hearing that there was enough remembered hearing that there was enough remembered hearing that there was enough food for three people, but she didn't food for three people, but she didn't food for three people, but she didn't know who picked it up or when or how know who picked it up or when or how know who picked it up or when or how many sandwiches it was. if there were many sandwiches it was. if there were many sandwiches it was. if there were sandwiches at all. But knowing the sandwiches at all. But knowing the sandwiches at all. But knowing the timeline that we're working with, to me, timeline that we're working with, to me, timeline that we're working with, to me, one of three things seems possible. one of three things seems possible. one of three things seems possible. Like, one, the stuff in her apartment Like, one, the stuff in her apartment Like, one, the stuff in her apartment really was old rappers or cups or really was old rappers or cups or really was old rappers or cups or whatever. It's not from that night. whatever. It's not from that night. whatever. It's not from that night. >> Two, someone else brought it to her >> Two, someone else brought it to her >> Two, someone else brought it to her place. Or three, she had to have gone place. Or three, she had to have gone place. Or three, she had to have gone out again after she got home, after she out again after she got home, after she out again after she got home, after she talked to Rob, maybe while her laundry talked to Rob, maybe while her laundry talked to Rob, maybe while her laundry was going. Now, she didn't have her own was going. Now, she didn't have her own was going. Now, she didn't have her own washer and dryer in her unit. So, she washer and dryer in her unit. So, she washer and dryer in her unit. So, she would have needed to go to the communal would have needed to go to the communal would have needed to go to the communal laundry room in her building to get her laundry room in her building to get her laundry room in her building to get her uniform washed. I'm guessing this would uniform washed. I'm guessing this would uniform washed. I'm guessing this would have been around 10:20 after her have been around 10:20 after her have been around 10:20 after her 32minute call with Rob. Now, the big 32minute call with Rob. Now, the big 32minute call with Rob. Now, the big question is, does she do this? Does the question is, does she do this? Does the question is, does she do this? Does the laundry get done?

laundry get done? laundry get done? >> God help me, but this is a question I >> God help me, but this is a question I >> God help me, but this is a question I cannot seem to get answered, but it cannot seem to get answered, but it cannot seem to get answered, but it feels like it should have been an easy feels like it should have been an easy feels like it should have been an easy one to answer. Was her clean uniform in one to answer. Was her clean uniform in one to answer. Was her clean uniform in her apartment? Did anyone go check the her apartment? Did anyone go check the her apartment? Did anyone go check the laundry room? From the information we laundry room? From the information we laundry room? From the information we have, it seems like the laundry room have, it seems like the laundry room have, it seems like the laundry room kind of just gets ignored, which is wild kind of just gets ignored, which is wild kind of just gets ignored, which is wild considering that it is very possible considering that it is very possible considering that it is very possible that is where she could have crossed that is where she could have crossed that is where she could have crossed paths with her killer. paths with her killer. paths with her killer. >> Whatever she is doing from 10:20 to 11, >> Whatever she is doing from 10:20 to 11, >> Whatever she is doing from 10:20 to 11, we [music] don't know. But by 11, that we [music] don't know. But by 11, that we [music] don't know. But by 11, that is when she's heard walking up the is when she's heard walking up the is when she's heard walking up the stairs in the [music] company of someone stairs in the [music] company of someone stairs in the [music] company of someone else. Well, and another big question is, else. Well, and another big question is, else. Well, and another big question is, is that the same someone who was there is that the same someone who was there is that the same someone who was there at 1:00, or did the guy she was with at at 1:00, or did the guy she was with at at 1:00, or did the guy she was with at 11 leave and someone else just sees an 11 leave and someone else just sees an 11 leave and someone else just sees an opportunity? Exactly. opportunity? Exactly. opportunity? Exactly. But if these are two different people, But if these are two different people, But if these are two different people, then why isn't 11:00 guy coming forward? then why isn't 11:00 guy coming forward? then why isn't 11:00 guy coming forward? >> Oh, >> Oh, >> Oh, >> no one is admitting to being with Carmen >> no one is admitting to being with Carmen >> no one is admitting to being with Carmen that night. And if you're 11:00 guy and that night. And if you're 11:00 guy and that night. And if you're 11:00 guy and you didn't kill her, you didn't kill her, you didn't kill her, >> what's the Harmon coming forward?

>> what's the Harmon coming forward? >> what's the Harmon coming forward? >> Come and talk to police. It seems more >> Come and talk to police. It seems more >> Come and talk to police. It seems more likely that we're actually looking at likely that we're actually looking at likely that we're actually looking at someone who's like one and the same. someone who's like one and the same. someone who's like one and the same. >> And her boyfriend, just to be clear, is >> And her boyfriend, just to be clear, is >> And her boyfriend, just to be clear, is for sure in Arizona, for sure in Arizona, for sure in Arizona, >> 100%. He had flown to Arizona with his >> 100%. He had flown to Arizona with his >> 100%. He had flown to Arizona with his family on March 19th to visit his aunt. family on March 19th to visit his aunt. family on March 19th to visit his aunt. And he'd actually called Carmen a number And he'd actually called Carmen a number And he'd actually called Carmen a number of times from a call-in card while he of times from a call-in card while he of times from a call-in card while he was there, including that call like just was there, including that call like just was there, including that call like just hours before she died. So, no way he was hours before she died. So, no way he was hours before she died. So, no way he was in Indiana. Pretty rock solid alibi. So, in Indiana. Pretty rock solid alibi. So, in Indiana. Pretty rock solid alibi. So, with Rob pretty much cleared, it's on to with Rob pretty much cleared, it's on to with Rob pretty much cleared, it's on to Carmen's most recent ex-boyfriend, who Carmen's most recent ex-boyfriend, who Carmen's most recent ex-boyfriend, who we'll call Josh. According to her friend we'll call Josh. According to her friend we'll call Josh. According to her friend Missy, investigators really gave Josh a Missy, investigators really gave Josh a Missy, investigators really gave Josh a hard time. Almost as hard of a time as hard time. Almost as hard of a time as hard time. Almost as hard of a time as they gave her. they gave her. they gave her. >> Wait, why are they giving Missy a hard >> Wait, why are they giving Missy a hard >> Wait, why are they giving Missy a hard time, time, time, >> dude? I'm not kidding when I say they >> dude? I'm not kidding when I say they >> dude? I'm not kidding when I say they looked at everyone in her circle, even looked at everyone in her circle, even looked at everyone in her circle, even like women, girls. Missy was one of the like women, girls. Missy was one of the like women, girls. Missy was one of the first people that they looked out. And first people that they looked out. And first people that they looked out. And it was just because they found a pack of it was just because they found a pack of it was just because they found a pack of Missy's cigarettes in Carmen's car with Missy's cigarettes in Carmen's car with Missy's cigarettes in Carmen's car with the word death written on it. And like the word death written on it. And like the word death written on it. And like [music] I can't imagine being her. She's [music] I can't imagine being her. She's [music] I can't imagine being her. She's probably like the same age as Carmen, probably like the same age as Carmen, probably like the same age as Carmen, right? She's like 19. She's in this right? She's like 19. She's in this right? She's like 19. She's in this detective's like interrogation room or detective's like interrogation room or detective's like interrogation room or wherever they're talking to her.

wherever they're talking to her. wherever they're talking to her. >> Like set down this pack of cigarettes >> Like set down this pack of cigarettes >> Like set down this pack of cigarettes that say death on it. that say death on it. that say death on it. >> She has to explain to them that her >> She has to explain to them that her >> She has to explain to them that her boyfriend at the time hated the fact boyfriend at the time hated the fact boyfriend at the time hated the fact that she was a smoker. And so she wrote that she was a smoker. And so she wrote that she was a smoker. And so she wrote death on her cigarette box in an effort death on her cigarette box in an effort death on her cigarette box in an effort to like try and get herself to quit. to like try and get herself to quit. to like try and get herself to quit. She's like, "This isn't a threat of any She's like, "This isn't a threat of any She's like, "This isn't a threat of any kind." kind." kind." >> Like her own reminder of this wasn't >> Like her own reminder of this wasn't >> Like her own reminder of this wasn't good for her. good for her. good for her. >> It was just this weird, terrible >> It was just this weird, terrible >> It was just this weird, terrible coincidence that she did that and then coincidence that she did that and then coincidence that she did that and then happened to leave it in Carmen's car happened to leave it in Carmen's car happened to leave it in Carmen's car like before this happened. But anyways, like before this happened. But anyways, like before this happened. But anyways, so they're looking at Carmen's ex now, so they're looking at Carmen's ex now, so they're looking at Carmen's ex now, Josh. They had heard somehow that Josh Josh. They had heard somehow that Josh Josh. They had heard somehow that Josh was upset because of Carmen's new was upset because of Carmen's new was upset because of Carmen's new boyfriend. But other than him being a boyfriend. But other than him being a boyfriend. But other than him being a recent ex, there is nothing else I can recent ex, there is nothing else I can recent ex, there is nothing else I can find to really make him look suspicious find to really make him look suspicious find to really make him look suspicious at all. They say that he's got an alibi. at all. They say that he's got an alibi. at all. They say that he's got an alibi. The motive ends up really not being The motive ends up really not being The motive ends up really not being solid. So, they quickly pivot to another solid. So, they quickly pivot to another solid. So, they quickly pivot to another ex. We'll call him Peter. And this is ex. We'll call him Peter. And this is ex. We'll call him Peter. And this is the first suspect where there actually the first suspect where there actually the first suspect where there actually seems to be a real red flag because the seems to be a real red flag because the seems to be a real red flag because the year before her death, Carmen had called year before her death, Carmen had called year before her death, Carmen had called the police on Peter. Now, it wasn't for the police on Peter. Now, it wasn't for the police on Peter. Now, it wasn't for anything violent. According to police anything violent. According to police anything violent. According to police records, Peter had taken Carmen's car records, Peter had taken Carmen's car records, Peter had taken Carmen's car and just wouldn't return it. Now, he was and just wouldn't return it. Now, he was and just wouldn't return it. Now, he was stopped and arrested by the Lawrence stopped and arrested by the Lawrence stopped and arrested by the Lawrence Police Department, and Carmen got her Police Department, and Carmen got her Police Department, and Carmen got her car back. But dude was busted in more car back. But dude was busted in more car back. But dude was busted in more ways than one because when Carmen went ways than one because when Carmen went ways than one because when Carmen went to go pick up her car, she found that to go pick up her car, she found that to go pick up her car, she found that Peter had left this little gift bag Peter had left this little gift bag Peter had left this little gift bag inside with a card for her. Like, how inside with a card for her. Like, how inside with a card for her. Like, how sweet, [music] right? Well, there was sweet, [music] right? Well, there was sweet, [music] right? Well, there was also a card in there addressed to a

also a card in there addressed to a also a card in there addressed to a different girl. And different girl got a different girl. And different girl got a different girl. And different girl got a set of Beasty Boys concert tickets in set of Beasty Boys concert tickets in set of Beasty Boys concert tickets in her card. So Carmen, like not one to be her card. So Carmen, like not one to be her card. So Carmen, like not one to be played, I take it, takes the tickets and played, I take it, takes the tickets and played, I take it, takes the tickets and goes to the concert herself. goes to the concert herself. goes to the concert herself. >> Okay. [laughter] >> Okay. [laughter] >> Okay. [laughter] >> But apparently that really pissed Peter >> But apparently that really pissed Peter >> But apparently that really pissed Peter off. So much so that he was going around off. So much so that he was going around off. So much so that he was going around telling people that he was going to telling people that he was going to telling people that he was going to quote get revenge. quote get revenge. quote get revenge. >> So the theory is that Peter brutally >> So the theory is that Peter brutally >> So the theory is that Peter brutally murdered Carmen over murdered Carmen over murdered Carmen over >> BC boy tickets. >> BC boy tickets. >> BC boy tickets. >> People have done awful things for way >> People have done awful things for way >> People have done awful things for way less. But yes, this is the motive less. But yes, this is the motive less. But yes, this is the motive they're working with. Only thing is just they're working with. Only thing is just they're working with. Only thing is just like Rob, Peter has a rockolid like Rob, Peter has a rockolid like Rob, Peter has a rockolid outofstate alibi. A representative from outofstate alibi. A representative from outofstate alibi. A representative from the Social Security office in San the Social Security office in San the Social Security office in San Francisco vouched that Peter was in her Francisco vouched that Peter was in her Francisco vouched that Peter was in her office over 2,000 m away on the day that office over 2,000 m away on the day that office over 2,000 m away on the day that Carmen was murdered. And it's the same Carmen was murdered. And it's the same Carmen was murdered. And it's the same story with a handful of others, friends, story with a handful of others, friends, story with a handful of others, friends, boyfriends. One by one, they're boyfriends. One by one, they're boyfriends. One by one, they're interviewed and they're cleared. And interviewed and they're cleared. And interviewed and they're cleared. And shortly after that, the case goes cold.

shortly after that, the case goes cold. shortly after that, the case goes cold. Pam's dad, Bob, and then Pam herself Pam's dad, Bob, and then Pam herself Pam's dad, Bob, and then Pam herself continue calling investigators at least continue calling investigators at least continue calling investigators at least once every year for updates, [music] but once every year for updates, [music] but once every year for updates, [music] but Pam says that it's always the same Pam says that it's always the same Pam says that it's always the same answer. The file is sitting on my desk, answer. The file is sitting on my desk, answer. The file is sitting on my desk, but we don't have anything new. So, the but we don't have anything new. So, the but we don't have anything new. So, the years keep passing, and Carmen's case years keep passing, and Carmen's case years keep passing, and Carmen's case gets handed from one investigator to the gets handed from one investigator to the gets handed from one investigator to the next as people either retire or take next as people either retire or take next as people either retire or take other roles. Now, over time, some of the other roles. Now, over time, some of the other roles. Now, over time, some of the initial persons of interest are initial persons of interest are initial persons of interest are interviewed again, but nothing really interviewed again, but nothing really interviewed again, but nothing really notable happens until 2013. That's notable happens until 2013. That's notable happens until 2013. That's [music] 20 years after Carmen's murder. [music] 20 years after Carmen's murder. [music] 20 years after Carmen's murder. That is when someone not employed by the That is when someone not employed by the That is when someone not employed by the Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department's homicide or cold case unit, Department's homicide or cold case unit, Department's homicide or cold case unit, takes an interest in Carmen's case, takes an interest in Carmen's case, takes an interest in Carmen's case, Sergeant Bill Carter. [music] Sergeant Bill Carter. [music] Sergeant Bill Carter. [music] [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] And he is, by all accounts, the last And he is, by all accounts, the last And he is, by all accounts, the last person anyone expects. Not because he person anyone expects. Not because he person anyone expects. Not because he isn't this brilliant investigator, but isn't this brilliant investigator, but isn't this brilliant investigator, but because he has exactly zero professional because he has exactly zero professional because he has exactly zero professional cold case homicide training or any cold case homicide training or any cold case homicide training or any homicide training at all for that homicide training at all for that homicide training at all for that matter. He actually started his law matter. He actually started his law matter. He actually started his law enforcement career as a state revenue enforcement career as a state revenue enforcement career as a state revenue agent.

agent. agent. >> You don't need to tell me. I mean, you >> You don't need to tell me. I mean, you >> You don't need to tell me. I mean, you can tell them, but I already know Bill can tell them, but I already know Bill can tell them, but I already know Bill Carter because you're kind of Carter because you're kind of Carter because you're kind of >> Have you heard me talk about him before? >> Have you heard me talk about him before? >> Have you heard me talk about him before? >> Only for how many years? You're kind of >> Only for how many years? You're kind of >> Only for how many years? You're kind of obsessed with him. obsessed with him. obsessed with him. >> This is true. Uh, so anyone who listened >> This is true. Uh, so anyone who listened >> This is true. Uh, so anyone who listened to our episode on Amy Widner back in to our episode on Amy Widner back in to our episode on Amy Widner back in 2018, you guys will know why I love 2018, you guys will know why I love 2018, you guys will know why I love Bill. But like just a quick refresher. Bill. But like just a quick refresher. Bill. But like just a quick refresher. So he was in the state revenue office. So he was in the state revenue office. So he was in the state revenue office. Then he moved to domestic violence and Then he moved to domestic violence and Then he moved to domestic violence and then nuisance abatement, which basically then nuisance abatement, which basically then nuisance abatement, which basically is a department that investigates is a department that investigates is a department that investigates community disturbances like underage community disturbances like underage community disturbances like underage drinking or animal cruelty. Love a guy drinking or animal cruelty. Love a guy drinking or animal cruelty. Love a guy who protects animals. And while in that who protects animals. And while in that who protects animals. And while in that position, he kind of just like stumbled position, he kind of just like stumbled position, he kind of just like stumbled into a cold case. So he's the guy in into a cold case. So he's the guy in into a cold case. So he's the guy in Nuisance Abatement who knows like the Nuisance Abatement who knows like the Nuisance Abatement who knows like the Facebook bath Ben. And one detective Facebook bath Ben. And one detective Facebook bath Ben. And one detective needed help getting into one of those needed help getting into one of those needed help getting into one of those like memorial pages of a case that he like memorial pages of a case that he like memorial pages of a case that he was working on, Amy's case. was working on, Amy's case. was working on, Amy's case. >> They wanted to like monitor comments or >> They wanted to like monitor comments or >> They wanted to like monitor comments or whatever. So, Bill helps them get in and whatever. So, Bill helps them get in and whatever. So, Bill helps them get in and then, you know, you get sucked in. He then, you know, you get sucked in. He then, you know, you get sucked in. He gets like super interested in the case. gets like super interested in the case. gets like super interested in the case. >> So, he starts reading the whole file, >> So, he starts reading the whole file, >> So, he starts reading the whole file, digitizing it, talking to family.

digitizing it, talking to family. digitizing it, talking to family. >> He basically starts his own >> He basically starts his own >> He basically starts his own investigation like in his spare time. investigation like in his spare time. investigation like in his spare time. >> Yeah. And he told our reporter Nicole >> Yeah. And he told our reporter Nicole >> Yeah. And he told our reporter Nicole that when he first started looking into that when he first started looking into that when he first started looking into Amy's case, there was this note in her Amy's case, there was this note in her Amy's case, there was this note in her file that literally said all that could file that literally said all that could file that literally said all that could be done was done. Well, hold his bear be done was done. Well, hold his bear be done was done. Well, hold his bear because in a matter of months, he solves because in a matter of months, he solves because in a matter of months, he solves the case. Now, Brit, you know this the case. Now, Brit, you know this the case. Now, Brit, you know this probably too. Does he get cheers and probably too. Does he get cheers and probably too. Does he get cheers and accolades for solving a cool case that accolades for solving a cool case that accolades for solving a cool case that no one else could? Not exactly. Not even no one else could? Not exactly. Not even no one else could? Not exactly. Not even an invitation to come join the team. an invitation to come join the team. an invitation to come join the team. Whatever. [music] Whatever. [music] Whatever. [music] Not why he did it. Amy's family is Not why he did it. Amy's family is Not why he did it. Amy's family is thrilled. Bill is happy to play his part thrilled. Bill is happy to play his part thrilled. Bill is happy to play his part and he goes back to nuisance abatement. and he goes back to nuisance abatement. and he goes back to nuisance abatement. But then he gets approached by an IMPD But then he gets approached by an IMPD But then he gets approached by an IMPD officer who went to high school with officer who went to high school with officer who went to high school with Carmen. And this person's basically Carmen. And this person's basically Carmen. And this person's basically like, "Listen, I saw the amazing work like, "Listen, I saw the amazing work like, "Listen, I saw the amazing work that you did on Amy's case. There is that you did on Amy's case. There is that you did on Amy's case. There is this other case that has always haunted this other case that has always haunted this other case that has always haunted me. I would just be forever indebted to me. I would just be forever indebted to me. I would just be forever indebted to you if you could look into it." So, of you if you could look into it." So, of you if you could look into it." So, of course, Sergeant Carter dives in head course, Sergeant Carter dives in head course, Sergeant Carter dives in head first. He digitizes Carmen's case file first. He digitizes Carmen's case file first. He digitizes Carmen's case file and starts going through it page by and starts going through it page by and starts going through it page by page. And there are no big misses, per page. And there are no big misses, per page. And there are no big misses, per se. He comes to the same conclusion that se. He comes to the same conclusion that se. He comes to the same conclusion that they did back in 1993, that whoever they did back in 1993, that whoever they did back in 1993, that whoever killed Carmen was likely someone that killed Carmen was likely someone that killed Carmen was likely someone that knew her. But at this point, it's 2013 knew her. But at this point, it's 2013 knew her. But at this point, it's 2013 and Sergeant Carter has DNA testing on and Sergeant Carter has DNA testing on and Sergeant Carter has DNA testing on his side.

his side. his side. >> Wait, so no one's gone back before this >> Wait, so no one's gone back before this >> Wait, so no one's gone back before this moment and done testing? moment and done testing? moment and done testing? >> Not necessarily. They by this point had >> Not necessarily. They by this point had >> Not necessarily. They by this point had entered Carmen's DNA into like state and entered Carmen's DNA into like state and entered Carmen's DNA into like state and national databases. national databases. national databases. >> And when you say Carmen's DNA, you mean >> And when you say Carmen's DNA, you mean >> And when you say Carmen's DNA, you mean like the DNA evidence found at Carmen's like the DNA evidence found at Carmen's like the DNA evidence found at Carmen's crime scene? crime scene? crime scene? >> No. No, I don't. >> No. No, I don't. >> No. No, I don't. >> You mean Wait, you mean the victim's >> You mean Wait, you mean the victim's >> You mean Wait, you mean the victim's DNA? DNA? DNA? >> Yeah. And we asked Carter about this. He >> Yeah. And we asked Carter about this. He >> Yeah. And we asked Carter about this. He didn't know why that was done either, didn't know why that was done either, didn't know why that was done either, but her DNA had been entered into but her DNA had been entered into but her DNA had been entered into databases. That's all that had been done databases. That's all that had been done databases. That's all that had been done at this point. So now in 2013, as you at this point. So now in 2013, as you at this point. So now in 2013, as you can imagine, there's like a ton that can can imagine, there's like a ton that can can imagine, there's like a ton that can be done. So, he assists a cold case be done. So, he assists a cold case be done. So, he assists a cold case investigator in sending off evidence investigator in sending off evidence investigator in sending off evidence from Carmen's case to be examined. And from Carmen's case to be examined. And from Carmen's case to be examined. And the lab comes back with [music] good the lab comes back with [music] good the lab comes back with [music] good news, a great news actually. Not only news, a great news actually. Not only news, a great news actually. Not only were they able to develop a partial male were they able to develop a partial male were they able to develop a partial male profile from swabs containing semen that profile from swabs containing semen that profile from swabs containing semen that was collected from Carmen's body, but was collected from Carmen's body, but was collected from Carmen's body, but they also got a full profile from the they also got a full profile from the they also got a full profile from the blood staining on the white paper bag blood staining on the white paper bag blood staining on the white paper bag that I mentioned at the top. that I mentioned at the top. that I mentioned at the top. >> And do these two profiles match? >> And do these two profiles match? >> And do these two profiles match? >> They both match. And that full profile >> They both match. And that full profile >> They both match. And that full profile is suitable to be put into COTUS, which is suitable to be put into COTUS, which is suitable to be put into COTUS, which they do, but no dice, they do, but no dice, they do, but no dice, which and this sucks, but it actually which and this sucks, but it actually which and this sucks, but it actually is, you know, partly good because it is, you know, partly good because it is, you know, partly good because it clears persons of interest who were clears persons of interest who were clears persons of interest who were already in the system. I guess there already in the system. I guess there already in the system. I guess there were some, but there were plenty more were some, but there were plenty more were some, but there were plenty more that weren't. So that's when that weren't. So that's when that weren't. So that's when investigators begin the painstaking task investigators begin the painstaking task investigators begin the painstaking task of tracking down everyone who could have of tracking down everyone who could have of tracking down everyone who could have crossed paths with Carmen to get samples crossed paths with Carmen to get samples crossed paths with Carmen to get samples from them for comparison, one by one.

from them for comparison, one by one. from them for comparison, one by one. And by the year's end, through voluntary And by the year's end, through voluntary And by the year's end, through voluntary and covertly obtaining samples, they are and covertly obtaining samples, they are and covertly obtaining samples, they are able to conclusively eliminate at least able to conclusively eliminate at least able to conclusively eliminate at least 40 men. That's including Carmen's 40 men. That's including Carmen's 40 men. That's including Carmen's boyfriend, Rob, her exes, Josh and boyfriend, Rob, her exes, Josh and boyfriend, Rob, her exes, Josh and Peter, even her neighbor across the Peter, even her neighbor across the Peter, even her neighbor across the hall. hall. hall. >> So, there's a chance that this isn't >> So, there's a chance that this isn't >> So, there's a chance that this isn't someone that she knew after all. someone that she knew after all. someone that she knew after all. >> Maybe everyone's wrong. There's only one >> Maybe everyone's wrong. There's only one >> Maybe everyone's wrong. There's only one way to know. They have to widen their way to know. They have to widen their way to know. They have to widen their search pool. Sergeant Carter makes a search pool. Sergeant Carter makes a search pool. Sergeant Carter makes a plea to the media for coverage, and he plea to the media for coverage, and he plea to the media for coverage, and he starts looking way beyond the initial starts looking way beyond the initial starts looking way beyond the initial persons of interest list, interviewing persons of interest list, interviewing persons of interest list, interviewing friends of friends and distant friends of friends and distant friends of friends and distant associates. He tries to track down the associates. He tries to track down the associates. He tries to track down the repair shop where Carmen's car was at repair shop where Carmen's car was at repair shop where Carmen's car was at the time of her murder, thinking, you the time of her murder, thinking, you the time of her murder, thinking, you know, maybe if the people working there know, maybe if the people working there know, maybe if the people working there had her car keys, maybe they could have had her car keys, maybe they could have had her car keys, maybe they could have also had the key to her apartment. He also had the key to her apartment. He also had the key to her apartment. He even takes the time to look into all of even takes the time to look into all of even takes the time to look into all of the police runs that happened the night the police runs that happened the night the police runs that happened the night of Karma's murder to see if anything of Karma's murder to see if anything of Karma's murder to see if anything there sticks out. Like maybe her there sticks out. Like maybe her there sticks out. Like maybe her attacker went on a crime spree or ended attacker went on a crime spree or ended attacker went on a crime spree or ended up needing medical attention. And up needing medical attention. And up needing medical attention. And Sergeant Carter actually does find a man Sergeant Carter actually does find a man Sergeant Carter actually does find a man who police interacted with that night who police interacted with that night who police interacted with that night [music] who had stab wounds that looked [music] who had stab wounds that looked [music] who had stab wounds that looked very similar to Carmen's. But neither very similar to Carmen's. But neither very similar to Carmen's. But neither that guy nor any of these other guys that guy nor any of these other guys that guy nor any of these other guys that he ends up talking to match the DNA that he ends up talking to match the DNA that he ends up talking to match the DNA from Carmen's crime scene. And at this from Carmen's crime scene. And at this from Carmen's crime scene. And at this point, is Carter still doing all of this point, is Carter still doing all of this point, is Carter still doing all of this in his spare time? Like, does he in his spare time? Like, does he in his spare time? Like, does he officially get put on the case at this officially get put on the case at this officially get put on the case at this point?

point? point? >> Oh, no. According to the files, he is >> Oh, no. According to the files, he is >> Oh, no. According to the files, he is technically only assisting the cold case technically only assisting the cold case technically only assisting the cold case detectives, which I mean, in my opinion, detectives, which I mean, in my opinion, detectives, which I mean, in my opinion, just doesn't capture the extent of the just doesn't capture the extent of the just doesn't capture the extent of the time and effort that he's putting into time and effort that he's putting into time and effort that he's putting into this. And Carmen's friends and family this. And Carmen's friends and family this. And Carmen's friends and family recognize that, too. With Sergeant recognize that, too. With Sergeant recognize that, too. With Sergeant Carter at the helm, it feels like for Carter at the helm, it feels like for Carter at the helm, it feels like for the first time, they might actually be the first time, they might actually be the first time, they might actually be getting closer to justice. Unlike getting closer to justice. Unlike getting closer to justice. Unlike previous detectives, he's not looking previous detectives, he's not looking previous detectives, he's not looking into this case because he has to. He is into this case because he has to. He is into this case because he has to. He is looking into it because he wants to. And looking into it because he wants to. And looking into it because he wants to. And take it from someone who has seen both take it from someone who has seen both take it from someone who has seen both play out many times, there [music] is a play out many times, there [music] is a play out many times, there [music] is a big difference. big difference. big difference. >> But wanting to solve a case [music] >> But wanting to solve a case [music] >> But wanting to solve a case [music] isn't everything. And as hard as Carter isn't everything. And as hard as Carter isn't everything. And as hard as Carter works, as many people as he gets DNA works, as many people as he gets DNA works, as many people as he gets DNA from and rules out, he is just not from and rules out, he is just not from and rules out, he is just not getting any closer to the answer. So, in getting any closer to the answer. So, in getting any closer to the answer. So, in 2014, he works with investigators to get 2014, he works with investigators to get 2014, he works with investigators to get some additional DNA testing done to see some additional DNA testing done to see some additional DNA testing done to see if the lab can figure out anything more if the lab can figure out anything more if the lab can figure out anything more about Carmen's attacker to help him about Carmen's attacker to help him about Carmen's attacker to help him focus his investigation. But what no one focus his investigation. But what no one focus his investigation. But what no one knows at the time is that this $1600 DNA knows at the time is that this $1600 DNA knows at the time is that this $1600 DNA test, which the city organizes and pays test, which the city organizes and pays test, which the city organizes and pays for, somehow ends up spurring a for, somehow ends up spurring a for, somehow ends up spurring a departmental controversy that throws departmental controversy that throws departmental controversy that throws Carmen's case into jeopardy and lands Carmen's case into jeopardy and lands Carmen's case into jeopardy and lands Sergeant Carter in a bucket of hot water Sergeant Carter in a bucket of hot water Sergeant Carter in a bucket of hot water with IMPD.

The controversy in Carmen's case all The controversy in Carmen's case all started in 2015 when the results from started in 2015 when the results from started in 2015 when the results from the DNA test come back. Carter remembers the DNA test come back. Carter remembers the DNA test come back. Carter remembers the cold case sergeant coming by his the cold case sergeant coming by his the cold case sergeant coming by his desk and saying, "Well, you know, we got desk and saying, "Well, you know, we got desk and saying, "Well, you know, we got a problem. Our killer is a European a problem. Our killer is a European a problem. Our killer is a European female." female." female." >> The original profile was developed from >> The original profile was developed from >> The original profile was developed from a seaman sample. How is that even a seaman sample. How is that even a seaman sample. How is that even possible? possible? possible? >> It's not like it turns out the city sent >> It's not like it turns out the city sent >> It's not like it turns out the city sent the wrong sample to the lab. What they the wrong sample to the lab. What they the wrong sample to the lab. What they likely tested was Carmen's own DNA. likely tested was Carmen's own DNA. likely tested was Carmen's own DNA. >> Uh, I'm sorry. How does that even >> Uh, I'm sorry. How does that even >> Uh, I'm sorry. How does that even happen? happen? happen? >> Not totally clear. I don't know if this >> Not totally clear. I don't know if this >> Not totally clear. I don't know if this has anything to do with the fact that has anything to do with the fact that has anything to do with the fact that like early on they sent her profile to like early on they sent her profile to like early on they sent her profile to COS. COS. COS. >> That's like where my mind immediately >> That's like where my mind immediately >> That's like where my mind immediately went. went. went. >> I know all Sergeant Carter can assume is >> I know all Sergeant Carter can assume is >> I know all Sergeant Carter can assume is that the people who sent off the DNA that the people who sent off the DNA that the people who sent off the DNA somehow got mixed up. Whatever. Human somehow got mixed up. Whatever. Human somehow got mixed up. Whatever. Human error. People make mistakes, right? error. People make mistakes, right? error. People make mistakes, right? Luckily, this isn't one where we like Luckily, this isn't one where we like Luckily, this isn't one where we like used up the last sample or anything. we used up the last sample or anything. we used up the last sample or anything. we just like go back and do it again. just like go back and do it again. just like go back and do it again. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, when Sergeant Carter asks for >> Well, when Sergeant Carter asks for >> Well, when Sergeant Carter asks for another test, he gets shut down. another test, he gets shut down. another test, he gets shut down. Officials tell him that they won't pay Officials tell him that they won't pay Officials tell him that they won't pay for the test, that they don't usually for the test, that they don't usually for the test, that they don't usually cover this particular kind of testing cover this particular kind of testing cover this particular kind of testing anyway, and that the first time they anyway, and that the first time they anyway, and that the first time they did, it was actually a mistake. And this did, it was actually a mistake. And this did, it was actually a mistake. And this would typically be the point where most would typically be the point where most would typically be the point where most investigators would give up or move on.

investigators would give up or move on. investigators would give up or move on. But if it's not already clear, Bill But if it's not already clear, Bill But if it's not already clear, Bill Carter is not most investigators. Carter is not most investigators. Carter is not most investigators. He gets this idea to crowdsource the He gets this idea to crowdsource the He gets this idea to crowdsource the funds for the DNA tests himself. He knew funds for the DNA tests himself. He knew funds for the DNA tests himself. He knew that the police department had that the police department had that the police department had crowdsourced donations in the past when crowdsourced donations in the past when crowdsourced donations in the past when a police horse with skin cancer needed a police horse with skin cancer needed a police horse with skin cancer needed surgery. So he thinks, I mean, if we can surgery. So he thinks, I mean, if we can surgery. So he thinks, I mean, if we can do it for a horse, surely we could do it do it for a horse, surely we could do it do it for a horse, surely we could do it for Carmen. Like the logic is sound, for Carmen. Like the logic is sound, for Carmen. Like the logic is sound, right? right? right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So Sergeant Carter creates this GoFundMe >> So Sergeant Carter creates this GoFundMe >> So Sergeant Carter creates this GoFundMe page and in just 7 hours he raises over page and in just 7 hours he raises over page and in just 7 hours he raises over $1,200. $1,200. $1,200. He only needs 996 for the test. So he He only needs 996 for the test. So he He only needs 996 for the test. So he says that after paying for the testing says that after paying for the testing says that after paying for the testing pays the bill, he'll donate the rest of pays the bill, he'll donate the rest of pays the bill, he'll donate the rest of the money to Crimestoppers. But he never the money to Crimestoppers. But he never the money to Crimestoppers. But he never gets the chance to give any money to gets the chance to give any money to gets the chance to give any money to anyone because almost as quickly as anyone because almost as quickly as anyone because almost as quickly as Sergeant Carter raised the funds. IMPD Sergeant Carter raised the funds. IMPD Sergeant Carter raised the funds. IMPD makes him send it all back and they makes him send it all back and they makes him send it all back and they remove him from Carmen's case. remove him from Carmen's case. remove him from Carmen's case. Why? Like what is happening right now?

Why? Like what is happening right now? Why? Like what is happening right now? He's like the only one doing any He's like the only one doing any He's like the only one doing any considerable work on this. considerable work on this. considerable work on this. >> So, according to the Indianapolis Star, >> So, according to the Indianapolis Star, >> So, according to the Indianapolis Star, IMPD says that Sergeant Carter's removal IMPD says that Sergeant Carter's removal IMPD says that Sergeant Carter's removal had nothing to do with the GoFundMe and had nothing to do with the GoFundMe and had nothing to do with the GoFundMe and he was removed after a review of he was removed after a review of he was removed after a review of departmental assignments and procedures. departmental assignments and procedures. departmental assignments and procedures. >> Interesting timing. >> Interesting timing. >> Interesting timing. >> Officials go on to say that Sergeant >> Officials go on to say that Sergeant >> Officials go on to say that Sergeant Carter is not a member of the cold case Carter is not a member of the cold case Carter is not a member of the cold case squad and quote, "We just want to make squad and quote, "We just want to make squad and quote, "We just want to make sure that people stay in their lanes. We sure that people stay in their lanes. We sure that people stay in their lanes. We have cold case investigators and we want have cold case investigators and we want have cold case investigators and we want to let them do their job." end quote. to let them do their job." end quote. to let them do their job." end quote. [music] [music] [music] >> Stay in their lanes. >> Stay in their lanes. >> Stay in their lanes. Just Just to be clear, correct me if I'm Just Just to be clear, correct me if I'm Just Just to be clear, correct me if I'm wrong, no one was working on Carmen's wrong, no one was working on Carmen's wrong, no one was working on Carmen's case, right? Like that lane was pretty case, right? Like that lane was pretty case, right? Like that lane was pretty empty. empty. empty. >> You are not wrong. >> You are not wrong. >> You are not wrong. >> So, he's literally doing the job that no >> So, he's literally doing the job that no >> So, he's literally doing the job that no one else wanted or had time for, you one else wanted or had time for, you one else wanted or had time for, you know, just to get a murderer off the know, just to get a murderer off the know, just to get a murderer off the streets who might still be out there, no streets who might still be out there, no streets who might still be out there, no big deal. Help a family and all in his big deal. Help a family and all in his big deal. Help a family and all in his spare time, right? Like free time. This spare time, right? Like free time. This spare time, right? Like free time. This is dude should be getting a promotion. is dude should be getting a promotion. is dude should be getting a promotion. >> Well, there's no promotion. It actually >> Well, there's no promotion. It actually >> Well, there's no promotion. It actually goes the other way for him. He gets goes the other way for him. He gets goes the other way for him. He gets slapped with a 10-day suspension. Carter slapped with a 10-day suspension. Carter slapped with a 10-day suspension. Carter told our reporter Nicole that before told our reporter Nicole that before told our reporter Nicole that before this, he had never been disciplined this, he had never been disciplined this, he had never been disciplined before. I mean, this guy was by the before. I mean, this guy was by the before. I mean, this guy was by the books, hardworking. I mean, he'd only books, hardworking. I mean, he'd only books, hardworking. I mean, he'd only taken 4 hours of sick time in his entire taken 4 hours of sick time in his entire taken 4 hours of sick time in his entire career. And now he is getting punished career. And now he is getting punished career. And now he is getting punished for what he thought was doing the right for what he thought was doing the right for what he thought was doing the right thing which like to be fair was the thing which like to be fair was the thing which like to be fair was the right thing.

right thing. right thing. >> And this is the bull politics of >> And this is the bull politics of >> And this is the bull politics of policing that I have zero patience for. policing that I have zero patience for. policing that I have zero patience for. Your toes and your fragile egos. What is Your toes and your fragile egos. What is Your toes and your fragile egos. What is the right thing to do by Carmen? What is the right thing to do by Carmen? What is the right thing to do by Carmen? What is the right thing to do by her family? the right thing to do by her family? the right thing to do by her family? That's what matters. Everything else That's what matters. Everything else That's what matters. Everything else that's in the way of the right thing is that's in the way of the right thing is that's in the way of the right thing is the wrong thing. I am so sick of this the wrong thing. I am so sick of this the wrong thing. I am so sick of this world playing sides and angles. There is world playing sides and angles. There is world playing sides and angles. There is right and there is a wrong. And I am right and there is a wrong. And I am right and there is a wrong. And I am losing my mind watching everyone lose losing my mind watching everyone lose losing my mind watching everyone lose sight of that. Especially with my tax sight of that. Especially with my tax sight of that. Especially with my tax dollars, dollars, dollars, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And however upset I am, [music] Carmen's >> And however upset I am, [music] Carmen's >> And however upset I am, [music] Carmen's family was infuriated tenfold. Carmen's family was infuriated tenfold. Carmen's family was infuriated tenfold. Carmen's brother is quoted in the news saying, brother is quoted in the news saying, brother is quoted in the news saying, "The only person that's ever made any "The only person that's ever made any "The only person that's ever made any progress is Bill Carter. And if Carter's progress is Bill Carter. And if Carter's progress is Bill Carter. And if Carter's off the case, the case is over. So off the case, the case is over. So off the case, the case is over. So coming out of this, Carmen's family coming out of this, Carmen's family coming out of this, Carmen's family actually makes an online petition to get actually makes an online petition to get actually makes an online petition to get Sergeant Carter reinstated, which Sergeant Carter reinstated, which Sergeant Carter reinstated, which quickly gets over 500 signatures. And quickly gets over 500 signatures. And quickly gets over 500 signatures. And IMPD doesn't say whether it's this IMPD doesn't say whether it's this IMPD doesn't say whether it's this petition or something else. But within petition or something else. But within petition or something else. But within days, they totally walk back on reports days, they totally walk back on reports days, they totally walk back on reports that they pulled Sergeant Carter from that they pulled Sergeant Carter from that they pulled Sergeant Carter from the case and say that he's still working the case and say that he's still working the case and say that he's still working it.

it. it. >> And see, this is why public pressure and >> And see, this is why public pressure and >> And see, this is why public pressure and attention matters. like holding public attention matters. like holding public attention matters. like holding public service agencies accountable like it service agencies accountable like it service agencies accountable like it makes things happen. makes things happen. makes things happen. >> But pay attention to the details people. >> But pay attention to the details people. >> But pay attention to the details people. We what do we say? Always go a layer We what do we say? Always go a layer We what do we say? Always go a layer deeper deeper deeper >> because that one shiny article that says >> because that one shiny article that says >> because that one shiny article that says never mind nothing to see here isn't the never mind nothing to see here isn't the never mind nothing to see here isn't the end all be all. Sergeant Carter is back end all be all. Sergeant Carter is back end all be all. Sergeant Carter is back on the case. But like back on is very on the case. But like back on is very on the case. But like back on is very much in quotation marks. IMPD still much in quotation marks. IMPD still much in quotation marks. IMPD still returns all of the donations that he returns all of the donations that he returns all of the donations that he raised, saying that they will look into raised, saying that they will look into raised, saying that they will look into whether or not the test is really whether or not the test is really whether or not the test is really needed. And at this point, Sergeant needed. And at this point, Sergeant needed. And at this point, Sergeant Carter wants to help, but I mean, he Carter wants to help, but I mean, he Carter wants to help, but I mean, he also doesn't want to lose his job, you also doesn't want to lose his job, you also doesn't want to lose his job, you know? I mean, he'd already interviewed know? I mean, he'd already interviewed know? I mean, he'd already interviewed tons of people, gotten dozens of DNA tons of people, gotten dozens of DNA tons of people, gotten dozens of DNA samples, and without this next test, samples, and without this next test, samples, and without this next test, there is not much more he can do to there is not much more he can do to there is not much more he can do to actually work this case. He keeps actually work this case. He keeps actually work this case. He keeps collecting samples when he can and he collecting samples when he can and he collecting samples when he can and he gets a list of everyone living in gets a list of everyone living in gets a list of everyone living in Carmen's apartment complex when she was Carmen's apartment complex when she was Carmen's apartment complex when she was killed. But this is the point where the killed. But this is the point where the killed. But this is the point where the case kind of stalls. But this is where case kind of stalls. But this is where case kind of stalls. But this is where we have to work [music] together, build we have to work [music] together, build we have to work [music] together, build off each other's work. Carter might have off each other's work. Carter might have off each other's work. Carter might have felt like he failed or that the system felt like he failed or that the system felt like he failed or that the system was against him, but it was against him was against him, but it was against him was against him, but it was against him in such a big way that it got my in such a big way that it got my in such a big way that it got my attention. The news about him having to attention. The news about him having to attention. The news about him having to give the money back and no testing being give the money back and no testing being give the money back and no testing being done is what made me pay attention to done is what made me pay attention to done is what made me pay attention to this case before Crime Junkie was a this case before Crime Junkie was a this case before Crime Junkie was a thing or actually it was like right at

thing or actually it was like right at thing or actually it was like right at the time we decided to make this a thing the time we decided to make this a thing the time we decided to make this a thing as I was working on our first episode. I as I was working on our first episode. I as I was working on our first episode. I don't know what undeserved confidence don't know what undeserved confidence don't know what undeserved confidence came over me, but I just cold emailed came over me, but I just cold emailed came over me, but I just cold emailed this man on October 17th, 2017. And this man on October 17th, 2017. And this man on October 17th, 2017. And >> we were in the thick of it then, >> we were in the thick of it then, >> we were in the thick of it then, [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> dude. I went back in my emails and I >> dude. I went back in my emails and I >> dude. I went back in my emails and I found it. I wanted to die. found it. I wanted to die. found it. I wanted to die. >> I'm going to have you, Of course. I'm >> I'm going to have you, Of course. I'm >> I'm going to have you, Of course. I'm going to have you read it. This is like, going to have you read it. This is like, going to have you read it. This is like, >> okay, this is my paper. Detective >> okay, this is my paper. Detective >> okay, this is my paper. Detective Sergeant Carter, which by the way, I Sergeant Carter, which by the way, I Sergeant Carter, which by the way, I don't even know if he was a officially a don't even know if he was a officially a don't even know if he was a officially a detective. He's a sergeant. detective. He's a sergeant. detective. He's a sergeant. >> You're just going for it. I love it. >> You're just going for it. I love it. >> You're just going for it. I love it. My name is Ashley and I am on the board My name is Ashley and I am on the board My name is Ashley and I am on the board of directors at Crimestoppers. of directors at Crimestoppers. of directors at Crimestoppers. You were very proud of that. [music] You were very proud of that. [music] You were very proud of that. [music] >> Obviously, it's like it gave it's like >> Obviously, it's like it gave it's like >> Obviously, it's like it gave it's like only you [laughter] had only you [laughter] had only you [laughter] had >> I'm working on a new type of media >> I'm working on a new type of media >> I'm working on a new type of media outreach for them to draw attention to outreach for them to draw attention to outreach for them to draw attention to cold and unsolved cases in Indianapolis. cold and unsolved cases in Indianapolis. cold and unsolved cases in Indianapolis. There are two cases high on my priority There are two cases high on my priority There are two cases high on my priority list. Carmen Van Hus and Linda McDaniel. list. Carmen Van Hus and Linda McDaniel. list. Carmen Van Hus and Linda McDaniel. I know you are not a cold case I know you are not a cold case I know you are not a cold case detective, but your name has been detective, but your name has been detective, but your name has been mentioned in media articles regarding mentioned in media articles regarding mentioned in media articles regarding both women. I wanted to see if I could both women. I wanted to see if I could both women. I wanted to see if I could buy you a coffee or beer sometime.

buy you a coffee or beer sometime. buy you a coffee or beer sometime. [music] I'd love to tell you what I'm [music] I'd love to tell you what I'm [music] I'd love to tell you what I'm trying to do. And if you think you can trying to do. And if you think you can trying to do. And if you think you can help, great. If not, no harm in a help, great. If not, no harm in a help, great. If not, no harm in a meeting. Would you be open to that? meeting. Would you be open to that? meeting. Would you be open to that? Girl, Girl, Girl, >> I know. [laughter] >> I know. [laughter] >> I know. [laughter] God bless. That man met me for lunch. God bless. That man met me for lunch. God bless. That man met me for lunch. >> There wasn't much he could do back then. >> There wasn't much he could do back then. >> There wasn't much he could do back then. Like the water was still hot. Like the water was still hot. Like the water was still hot. >> But talking to him about Carmen's case, >> But talking to him about Carmen's case, >> But talking to him about Carmen's case, like what needed to be done, that is like what needed to be done, that is like what needed to be done, that is what planted the seed. It took years to what planted the seed. It took years to what planted the seed. It took years to grow, but that conversation was the grow, but that conversation was the grow, but that conversation was the inspiration behind Season of Justice, inspiration behind Season of Justice, inspiration behind Season of Justice, the nonprofit that I founded. How could the nonprofit that I founded. How could the nonprofit that I founded. How could we be this close to progressing a case we be this close to progressing a case we be this close to progressing a case and have funding be the only thing and have funding be the only thing and have funding be the only thing that's stopping us? So, when I started that's stopping us? So, when I started that's stopping us? So, when I started Season of Justice, I told our director Season of Justice, I told our director Season of Justice, I told our director at the time like, "This is the case. We at the time like, "This is the case. We at the time like, "This is the case. We have to get IMPD on board to let us help have to get IMPD on board to let us help have to get IMPD on board to let us help fund testing." [music] fund testing." [music] fund testing." [music] Well, little did I know they had already Well, little did I know they had already Well, little did I know they had already started in 2018. They sent a DNA sample started in 2018. They sent a DNA sample started in 2018. They sent a DNA sample to Parabon Nano Labs to get a genetic to Parabon Nano Labs to get a genetic to Parabon Nano Labs to get a genetic genealogy assessment and do like one of genealogy assessment and do like one of genealogy assessment and do like one of those snapshot things. Tell me the those snapshot things. Tell me the those snapshot things. Tell me the physical traits of our per. And in 2019, physical traits of our per. And in 2019, physical traits of our per. And in 2019, one of the cold case detectives shares one of the cold case detectives shares one of the cold case detectives shares with Carter, who's now a lieutenant, with Carter, who's now a lieutenant, with Carter, who's now a lieutenant, that as a result of the testing, Parabon that as a result of the testing, Parabon that as a result of the testing, Parabon is able to conclude that the DNA sample is able to conclude that the DNA sample is able to conclude that the DNA sample belongs to a black man, which helps belongs to a black man, which helps belongs to a black man, which helps narrow down their suspect pool. So, narrow down their suspect pool. So, narrow down their suspect pool. So, Lieutenant Carter, who [music] has no Lieutenant Carter, who [music] has no Lieutenant Carter, who [music] has no genealogical background, by the way, genealogical background, by the way, genealogical background, by the way, starts trying to build out his own starts trying to build out his own starts trying to build out his own family tree for this based on the DNA

family tree for this based on the DNA family tree for this based on the DNA matches from Parabon's profile. And over matches from Parabon's profile. And over matches from Parabon's profile. And over the next year, he spends his time the next year, he spends his time the next year, he spends his time traveling all over the country to talk traveling all over the country to talk traveling all over the country to talk to people and try and get reference to people and try and get reference to people and try and get reference samples to continue narrowing them down. samples to continue narrowing them down. samples to continue narrowing them down. But the DNA matches that he's working But the DNA matches that he's working But the DNA matches that he's working with are like very distantly connected with are like very distantly connected with are like very distantly connected to Carmen's attacker. We're talking like to Carmen's attacker. We're talking like to Carmen's attacker. We're talking like fourth generation distant, he said. And fourth generation distant, he said. And fourth generation distant, he said. And one of these trees has 2800 people on one of these trees has 2800 people on one of these trees has 2800 people on it. But he is still desperate to figure it. But he is still desperate to figure it. But he is still desperate to figure this case out. So by now where he's at, this case out. So by now where he's at, this case out. So by now where he's at, it's 2020. And turns out Season of it's 2020. And turns out Season of it's 2020. And turns out Season of Justice can help after all. SOJ steps in Justice can help after all. SOJ steps in Justice can help after all. SOJ steps in with a grant to fund 15 hours of with a grant to fund 15 hours of with a grant to fund 15 hours of genealogical research and cover the fee genealogical research and cover the fee genealogical research and cover the fee to upload the suspect's DNA profile to to upload the suspect's DNA profile to to upload the suspect's DNA profile to another online database. And that is how another online database. And that is how another online database. And that is how after almost a decade of working on this after almost a decade of working on this after almost a decade of working on this case, Lieutenant Carter finally gets case, Lieutenant Carter finally gets case, Lieutenant Carter finally gets what he calls the magic hit. On June what he calls the magic hit. On June what he calls the magic hit. On June 2nd, 2023, Parabon reaches out to 2nd, 2023, Parabon reaches out to 2nd, 2023, Parabon reaches out to Carter, now a captain.

Carter, now a captain. Carter, now a captain. >> At least someone's recognizing this >> At least someone's recognizing this >> At least someone's recognizing this guy's work at this point. guy's work at this point. guy's work at this point. >> I know. And Parabon says that they may >> I know. And Parabon says that they may >> I know. And Parabon says that they may have found a close relative to their have found a close relative to their have found a close relative to their person of interest. Apparently, a great person of interest. Apparently, a great person of interest. Apparently, a great niece, once removed from the suspect, niece, once removed from the suspect, niece, once removed from the suspect, had uploaded her DNA to 23 and me. But had uploaded her DNA to 23 and me. But had uploaded her DNA to 23 and me. But that's as far as they could go with the that's as far as they could go with the that's as far as they could go with the grant. And again, he has no genealogical grant. And again, he has no genealogical grant. And again, he has no genealogical training whatsoever. So he taps IMPD training whatsoever. So he taps IMPD training whatsoever. So he taps IMPD nuisance abatement analyst Meera Patel, nuisance abatement analyst Meera Patel, nuisance abatement analyst Meera Patel, who is more familiar with open- source who is more familiar with open- source who is more familiar with open- source databases, and she starts investigating databases, and she starts investigating databases, and she starts investigating this relative and her family. And this this relative and her family. And this this relative and her family. And this work brings the investigation the work brings the investigation the work brings the investigation the closest it's ever been to a name. Mera closest it's ever been to a name. Mera closest it's ever been to a name. Mera concludes that Carmen's attacker is concludes that Carmen's attacker is concludes that Carmen's attacker is possibly related to these two brothers possibly related to these two brothers possibly related to these two brothers with the last name Shepherd. and with the last name Shepherd. and with the last name Shepherd. and Shepherd rings a bell. Remember that Shepherd rings a bell. Remember that Shepherd rings a bell. Remember that list Captain Carter got of the people list Captain Carter got of the people list Captain Carter got of the people who lived in Carmen's apartment complex who lived in Carmen's apartment complex who lived in Carmen's apartment complex at the time of her murder. at the time of her murder. at the time of her murder. Both brothers are on it. Captain Carter Both brothers are on it. Captain Carter Both brothers are on it. Captain Carter and Meera actually go out to the and Meera actually go out to the and Meera actually go out to the apartment complex to see just how close apartment complex to see just how close apartment complex to see just how close their apartment would have been to their apartment would have been to their apartment would have been to Carmen's. It takes them [music] like 30 Carmen's. It takes them [music] like 30 Carmen's. It takes them [music] like 30 seconds to get from one to the other. I seconds to get from one to the other. I seconds to get from one to the other. I mean, the apartments are connected by a mean, the apartments are connected by a mean, the apartments are connected by a common area, which by the way includes common area, which by the way includes common area, which by the way includes the laundry room. So, she probably did the laundry room. So, she probably did the laundry room. So, she probably did make it there that night.

make it there that night. make it there that night. >> I think that makes the most sense >> I think that makes the most sense >> I think that makes the most sense because from speaking to her family and because from speaking to her family and because from speaking to her family and friends, the only connection that these friends, the only connection that these friends, the only connection that these two brothers had to Carmen was living in two brothers had to Carmen was living in two brothers had to Carmen was living in the same complex. So on February 7th, the same complex. So on February 7th, the same complex. So on February 7th, 2024, Captain Carter meets with the IMPD 2024, Captain Carter meets with the IMPD 2024, Captain Carter meets with the IMPD cold case unit to share what he and cold case unit to share what he and cold case unit to share what he and Meera have found and to suggest that Meera have found and to suggest that Meera have found and to suggest that they get warrants to obtain swabs and they get warrants to obtain swabs and they get warrants to obtain swabs and fingerprints from Dana Shepard. fingerprints from Dana Shepard. fingerprints from Dana Shepard. >> And why just the one brother? >> And why just the one brother? >> And why just the one brother? >> Well, according to Captain Carter, they >> Well, according to Captain Carter, they >> Well, according to Captain Carter, they only started with Dana simply because he only started with Dana simply because he only started with Dana simply because he was living closer. He was living in was living closer. He was living in was living closer. He was living in Missouri, working as a university Missouri, working as a university Missouri, working as a university custodian, and his brother had moved custodian, and his brother had moved custodian, and his brother had moved even further south. So, they'll start even further south. So, they'll start even further south. So, they'll start there, right? IMPD's warrant is granted there, right? IMPD's warrant is granted there, right? IMPD's warrant is granted by the Boone County judge in Missouri by the Boone County judge in Missouri by the Boone County judge in Missouri and on February 15th they serve it to and on February 15th they serve it to and on February 15th they serve it to Dana on the University of Missouri Dana on the University of Missouri Dana on the University of Missouri campus. Police tell him that they need campus. Police tell him that they need campus. Police tell him that they need to eliminate him as a suspect in an to eliminate him as a suspect in an to eliminate him as a suspect in an assault case. And according to police assault case. And according to police assault case. And according to police records, Dana is like visibly shaking as records, Dana is like visibly shaking as records, Dana is like visibly shaking as he reads the warrant and he tells police he reads the warrant and he tells police he reads the warrant and he tells police that he has not done anything for a long that he has not done anything for a long that he has not done anything for a long time. And then he keeps asking if this time. And then he keeps asking if this time. And then he keeps asking if this warrant is from Missouri. And at this warrant is from Missouri. And at this warrant is from Missouri. And at this point, it sounds like they went to the point, it sounds like they went to the point, it sounds like they went to the right brother first. [music] 4 months right brother first. [music] 4 months right brother first. [music] 4 months later, they're sure of it. Dana's DNA later, they're sure of it. Dana's DNA later, they're sure of it. Dana's DNA matches the DNA in Carmen's case. So on matches the DNA in Carmen's case. So on matches the DNA in Carmen's case. So on August 30th, 2024, 31 years after August 30th, 2024, 31 years after August 30th, 2024, 31 years after Carmen's death, Dana Shepard is arrested Carmen's death, Dana Shepard is arrested Carmen's death, Dana Shepard is arrested in Missouri on charges of murder and in Missouri on charges of murder and in Missouri on charges of murder and rape with deadly force. When the charges rape with deadly force. When the charges rape with deadly force. When the charges are announced at an IMPD press

are announced at an IMPD press are announced at an IMPD press conference, Carmen's younger brother, conference, Carmen's younger brother, conference, Carmen's younger brother, Jimmy Van Hus, gets the chance to say a Jimmy Van Hus, gets the chance to say a Jimmy Van Hus, gets the chance to say a few words. few words. few words. >> From the bottom of my heart, >> From the bottom of my heart, >> From the bottom of my heart, and on behalf of my dad and our entire and on behalf of my dad and our entire and on behalf of my dad and our entire family, I want to say thank you to Bill family, I want to say thank you to Bill family, I want to say thank you to Bill and Meera and Meera and Meera and every single person that had a hand and every single person that had a hand and every single person that had a hand in this. in this. in this. There's a lot of people that put in a There's a lot of people that put in a There's a lot of people that put in a lot of work for a lot of years and to lot of work for a lot of years and to lot of work for a lot of years and to every single one. We're all very, very every single one. We're all very, very every single one. We're all very, very thankful. thankful. thankful. There's a lot of people that miss Carmen There's a lot of people that miss Carmen There's a lot of people that miss Carmen all these years. She had a lot of all these years. She had a lot of all these years. She had a lot of family, a lot of friends. family, a lot of friends. family, a lot of friends. She had cousins that loved her like She had cousins that loved her like She had cousins that loved her like sisters. She had aunt and uncle that sisters. She had aunt and uncle that sisters. She had aunt and uncle that loved her like a daughter. loved her like a daughter. loved her like a daughter. She wasn't able to experience her She wasn't able to experience her She wasn't able to experience her college graduation or have a wedding college graduation or have a wedding college graduation or have a wedding or any of life's events that she missed or any of life's events that she missed or any of life's events that she missed out on. out on. out on. We were coming a lot closer just as she We were coming a lot closer just as she We were coming a lot closer just as she was taken from us. For my dad to have to was taken from us. For my dad to have to was taken from us. For my dad to have to find his [snorts] daughter after what find his [snorts] daughter after what find his [snorts] daughter after what was brutally done to her makes this day was brutally done to her makes this day was brutally done to her makes this day bittersweet. I wish he was here to see bittersweet. I wish he was here to see bittersweet. I wish he was here to see it. She was taken from me when I was a it. She was taken from me when I was a it. She was taken from me when I was a freshman in high school.

freshman in high school. freshman in high school. And I'm thankful that finally the man And I'm thankful that finally the man And I'm thankful that finally the man that did it is where he needs to be. that did it is where he needs to be. that did it is where he needs to be. I do have hope that any similar case I do have hope that any similar case I do have hope that any similar case with DNA can get this same treatment with DNA can get this same treatment with DNA can get this same treatment with the genealogy and the with the genealogy and the with the genealogy and the uh everything we have available today. I uh everything we have available today. I uh everything we have available today. I want all of them to get the same want all of them to get the same want all of them to get the same attention and get maybe we can have some attention and get maybe we can have some attention and get maybe we can have some more outcomes like this. more outcomes like this. more outcomes like this. Thank good Thank good Thank good Dana plead not guilty at his arraignment Dana plead not guilty at his arraignment Dana plead not guilty at his arraignment and as of this recording he has been and as of this recording he has been and as of this recording he has been extradited to an Indianapolis jail where extradited to an Indianapolis jail where extradited to an Indianapolis jail where he's awaiting his trial. that is set to he's awaiting his trial. that is set to he's awaiting his trial. that is set to begin right around the corner, January begin right around the corner, January begin right around the corner, January 26, 2026. [music] 26, 2026. [music] 26, 2026. [music] And in a huge win for Carmen's family, And in a huge win for Carmen's family, And in a huge win for Carmen's family, the prosecution recently decided that the prosecution recently decided that the prosecution recently decided that Captain Bill Carter will be the lead Captain Bill Carter will be the lead Captain Bill Carter will be the lead detective for the prosecution in this detective for the prosecution in this detective for the prosecution in this case, rather than one of IMPD's cold case, rather than one of IMPD's cold case, rather than one of IMPD's cold case unit guys, which the family is case unit guys, which the family is case unit guys, which the family is thrilled about because they know that at thrilled about because they know that at thrilled about because they know that at this point, nobody knows this case as this point, nobody knows this case as this point, nobody knows this case as well as Captain Carter does. [music] well as Captain Carter does. [music] well as Captain Carter does. [music] >> Well, and he's really the person who >> Well, and he's really the person who >> Well, and he's really the person who cares the most, too, right?

cares the most, too, right? cares the most, too, right? >> Yeah. I mean, their their best chance is >> Yeah. I mean, their their best chance is >> Yeah. I mean, their their best chance is with him. He's going to he's going to with him. He's going to he's going to with him. He's going to he's going to get on the stand and like there's going get on the stand and like there's going get on the stand and like there's going to be no himhawing ums. Like he knows to be no himhawing ums. Like he knows to be no himhawing ums. Like he knows this case. this case. this case. >> Yeah. Do you think there's anything more >> Yeah. Do you think there's anything more >> Yeah. Do you think there's anything more that's going to happen at trial? Like that's going to happen at trial? Like that's going to happen at trial? Like any more of a connection, any more of a any more of a connection, any more of a any more of a connection, any more of a there's never a reason, but like any there's never a reason, but like any there's never a reason, but like any more of a reason? more of a reason? more of a reason? >> I don't know. I'm finding more and more >> I don't know. I'm finding more and more >> I don't know. I'm finding more and more with these genealogy cases that get with these genealogy cases that get with these genealogy cases that get solved that there are [music] no answers solved that there are [music] no answers solved that there are [music] no answers or like no satisfying ones at least. But or like no satisfying ones at least. But or like no satisfying ones at least. But I don't know what the trial is going to I don't know what the trial is going to I don't know what the trial is going to reveal. Carmen's family and friends that reveal. Carmen's family and friends that reveal. Carmen's family and friends that we spoke to had never even heard Dana's we spoke to had never even heard Dana's we spoke to had never even heard Dana's name before. But after Pam learned that name before. But after Pam learned that name before. But after Pam learned that he lived in the same apartment complex he lived in the same apartment complex he lived in the same apartment complex as Carmen, she said that it made sense as Carmen, she said that it made sense as Carmen, she said that it made sense to her. She told our reporter Nicole to her. She told our reporter Nicole to her. She told our reporter Nicole that if Carmen ran into somebody in her that if Carmen ran into somebody in her that if Carmen ran into somebody in her building, she would definitely have been building, she would definitely have been building, she would definitely have been friendly with them. So her guess is that friendly with them. So her guess is that friendly with them. So her guess is that Carmen and Dana had probably seen each Carmen and Dana had probably seen each Carmen and Dana had probably seen each other around maybe a few times. and she other around maybe a few times. and she other around maybe a few times. and she can imagine a scenario where on the can imagine a scenario where on the can imagine a scenario where on the night of the murder the two ran into night of the murder the two ran into night of the murder the two ran into each other maybe in the laundry room and each other maybe in the laundry room and each other maybe in the laundry room and Dana who was 20 at the time about the Dana who was 20 at the time about the Dana who was 20 at the time about the same age asked to hang out. Pam said same age asked to hang out. Pam said same age asked to hang out. Pam said that it wouldn't have been surprising at that it wouldn't have been surprising at that it wouldn't have been surprising at all for Carmen to agree and let him come all for Carmen to agree and let him come all for Carmen to agree and let him come to her apartment.

to her apartment. to her apartment. >> And what about the like possible food >> And what about the like possible food >> And what about the like possible food for three? Is there someone else in the for three? Is there someone else in the for three? Is there someone else in the mix here that we might not know about? mix here that we might not know about? mix here that we might not know about? Well, Nicole asked Captain Carter about Well, Nicole asked Captain Carter about Well, Nicole asked Captain Carter about that and he said that there were two that and he said that there were two that and he said that there were two Subway cups on Carmen's table and then a Subway cups on Carmen's table and then a Subway cups on Carmen's table and then a bag from a pizza place, but he said it bag from a pizza place, but he said it bag from a pizza place, but he said it wasn't clear to him that those items wasn't clear to him that those items wasn't clear to him that those items were purchased that night or even that were purchased that night or even that were purchased that night or even that they were used that night. Investigators they were used that night. Investigators they were used that night. Investigators didn't find any actual food at the table didn't find any actual food at the table didn't find any actual food at the table and no receipts or anything were found and no receipts or anything were found and no receipts or anything were found either. So, if they were found or stuff either. So, if they were found or stuff either. So, if they were found or stuff like that was found, nobody documented like that was found, nobody documented like that was found, nobody documented it or collected them. So, when it comes it or collected them. So, when it comes it or collected them. So, when it comes to the official record, the details of to the official record, the details of to the official record, the details of Carmen's last night are still Carmen's last night are still Carmen's last night are still technically unknown. And what do we know technically unknown. And what do we know technically unknown. And what do we know about Dana? Like, did he have any kind about Dana? Like, did he have any kind about Dana? Like, did he have any kind of record or history? I mean, was this of record or history? I mean, was this of record or history? I mean, was this guy truly like squeaky clean? I mean, guy truly like squeaky clean? I mean, guy truly like squeaky clean? I mean, not squeaky, but nothing like what you'd not squeaky, but nothing like what you'd not squeaky, but nothing like what you'd expect knowing what happened to Carmen. expect knowing what happened to Carmen. expect knowing what happened to Carmen. [music] I mean, the sample from Carmen's [music] I mean, the sample from Carmen's [music] I mean, the sample from Carmen's case before it was tied to him never case before it was tied to him never case before it was tied to him never matched any other cases in Cotus. And matched any other cases in Cotus. And matched any other cases in Cotus. And Carter did go through and check to see Carter did go through and check to see Carter did go through and check to see if there were any unsolved cases not in if there were any unsolved cases not in if there were any unsolved cases not in Cotus that Dana might have been Cotus that Dana might have been Cotus that Dana might have been connected to, but there was nothing that connected to, but there was nothing that connected to, but there was nothing that he found. What I know is that Dana was he found. What I know is that Dana was he found. What I know is that Dana was arrested a few times in like the '9s and arrested a few times in like the '9s and arrested a few times in like the '9s and early 2000s, mostly for non-violent early 2000s, mostly for non-violent early 2000s, mostly for non-violent offenses, though in 1996 he was arrested offenses, though in 1996 he was arrested offenses, though in 1996 he was arrested for battery on a woman who he'd had a for battery on a woman who he'd had a for battery on a woman who he'd had a child with four years earlier. He was child with four years earlier. He was child with four years earlier. He was found guilty, but walked out free with found guilty, but walked out free with found guilty, but walked out free with time served. After that, he moved out of time served. After that, he moved out of time served. After that, he moved out of Indiana, got married, had more kids, Indiana, got married, had more kids, Indiana, got married, had more kids, grandchildren even, and then started grandchildren even, and then started grandchildren even, and then started working as a custodian at the University working as a custodian at the University working as a custodian at the University of Missouri.

of Missouri. of Missouri. >> And what does his family say? >> And what does his family say? >> And what does his family say? >> Well, so he's got a big family. Dana is >> Well, so he's got a big family. Dana is >> Well, so he's got a big family. Dana is the youngest of 10 children. Nicole was the youngest of 10 children. Nicole was the youngest of 10 children. Nicole was able to speak to his mom, Jesse, and able to speak to his mom, Jesse, and able to speak to his mom, Jesse, and then two of his sisters, Denise and then two of his sisters, Denise and then two of his sisters, Denise and Evette. And when they heard about Dana Evette. And when they heard about Dana Evette. And when they heard about Dana being charged, they said they were being charged, they said they were being charged, they said they were completely shocked. They had never heard completely shocked. They had never heard completely shocked. They had never heard of Dana doing anything like that before of Dana doing anything like that before of Dana doing anything like that before or being violent towards anyone. And or being violent towards anyone. And or being violent towards anyone. And they also said they had never heard of they also said they had never heard of they also said they had never heard of Carmen until Dana was arrested. Carmen until Dana was arrested. Carmen until Dana was arrested. >> What about the siblings who lived in the >> What about the siblings who lived in the >> What about the siblings who lived in the apartment complex with him? Did they see apartment complex with him? Did they see apartment complex with him? Did they see him that night? him that night? him that night? >> So, there were actually four shepherd >> So, there were actually four shepherd >> So, there were actually four shepherd children that lived there in total. They children that lived there in total. They children that lived there in total. They all had separate units, though. The all had separate units, though. The all had separate units, though. The brother that Dana was closest to, didn't brother that Dana was closest to, didn't brother that Dana was closest to, didn't want to talk to us for this episode, but want to talk to us for this episode, but want to talk to us for this episode, but Denise, she was one of the ones who Denise, she was one of the ones who Denise, she was one of the ones who lived there. She told Nicole that she lived there. She told Nicole that she lived there. She told Nicole that she doesn't remember seeing Dana or Carmen doesn't remember seeing Dana or Carmen doesn't remember seeing Dana or Carmen that night or hearing anything out of that night or hearing anything out of that night or hearing anything out of the ordinary at all. And she said to her the ordinary at all. And she said to her the ordinary at all. And she said to her knowledge, Dana didn't use drugs and knowledge, Dana didn't use drugs and knowledge, Dana didn't use drugs and said that she doesn't think that he said that she doesn't think that he said that she doesn't think that he could be capable of something like could be capable of something like could be capable of something like Carmen's attack. And I only mentioned Carmen's attack. And I only mentioned Carmen's attack. And I only mentioned the drug thing because um the attack at the drug thing because um the attack at the drug thing because um the attack at the time, it was so brutal that they've the time, it was so brutal that they've the time, it was so brutal that they've kind of always assumed that whoever kind of always assumed that whoever kind of always assumed that whoever killed her was on drugs. But killed her was on drugs. But killed her was on drugs. But >> I mean, they also thought Carmen knew >> I mean, they also thought Carmen knew >> I mean, they also thought Carmen knew her killer. So maybe the drug thing was her killer. So maybe the drug thing was her killer. So maybe the drug thing was wrong, too. Dana's mom just reiterated wrong, too. Dana's mom just reiterated wrong, too. Dana's mom just reiterated everything that his sister said, and it everything that his sister said, and it everything that his sister said, and it seems like they believe he's innocent. I seems like they believe he's innocent. I seems like they believe he's innocent. I mean, have any of them asked him about mean, have any of them asked him about mean, have any of them asked him about it? Like, straight up?

it? Like, straight up? it? Like, straight up? >> They have been talking to him in jail >> They have been talking to him in jail >> They have been talking to him in jail over the phone, but they said that they over the phone, but they said that they over the phone, but they said that they don't talk about the case. And we tried don't talk about the case. And we tried don't talk about the case. And we tried reaching out to Dana's attorney for reaching out to Dana's attorney for reaching out to Dana's attorney for comment, whether they, you know, would comment, whether they, you know, would comment, whether they, you know, would let us talk to him or the attorney would let us talk to him or the attorney would let us talk to him or the attorney would say something, but as of this recording, say something, but as of this recording, say something, but as of this recording, we haven't heard back from him or his we haven't heard back from him or his we haven't heard back from him or his attorney. After almost 33 years, attorney. After almost 33 years, attorney. After almost 33 years, Carmen's family is the closest that they Carmen's family is the closest that they Carmen's family is the closest that they have ever been to getting closure. have ever been to getting closure. have ever been to getting closure. But Pam said that strangely with all But Pam said that strangely with all But Pam said that strangely with all that's happening in the media and in the that's happening in the media and in the that's happening in the media and in the courts, she has felt farther from her courts, she has felt farther from her courts, she has felt farther from her sister lately. Almost like her memory sister lately. Almost like her memory sister lately. Almost like her memory has become her murder. So recently she's has become her murder. So recently she's has become her murder. So recently she's been trying to reconnect with Carmen the been trying to reconnect with Carmen the been trying to reconnect with Carmen the person rather than Carmen the case. And person rather than Carmen the case. And person rather than Carmen the case. And she does this by reading her diary she does this by reading her diary she does this by reading her diary entries and looking back on photos that entries and looking back on photos that entries and looking back on photos that they have together. And to make sure they have together. And to make sure they have together. And to make sure that no other families have to endure that no other families have to endure that no other families have to endure the pain of waiting for answers that the pain of waiting for answers that the pain of waiting for answers that feel like they're never going to come, feel like they're never going to come, feel like they're never going to come, Pam is actually working to get a bill Pam is actually working to get a bill Pam is actually working to get a bill passed in Carmen's honor that will passed in Carmen's honor that will passed in Carmen's honor that will create a formal process in Indiana for create a formal process in Indiana for create a formal process in Indiana for families, not just law enforcement, to families, not just law enforcement, to families, not just law enforcement, to request advanced DNA testing in their request advanced DNA testing in their request advanced DNA testing in their loved ones cold cases.

loved ones cold cases. loved ones cold cases. So, what you just heard was right around So, what you just heard was right around So, what you just heard was right around where we ended our original episode. And where we ended our original episode. And where we ended our original episode. And now I'm hopping in with two major now I'm hopping in with two major now I'm hopping in with two major updates. First and foremost, if you updates. First and foremost, if you updates. First and foremost, if you follow us on social media, you know that follow us on social media, you know that follow us on social media, you know that we were all set to cover this trial in we were all set to cover this trial in we were all set to cover this trial in person when less than a week before the person when less than a week before the person when less than a week before the jury selection was slated to begin in a jury selection was slated to begin in a jury selection was slated to begin in a move that no one saw coming, Dana move that no one saw coming, Dana move that no one saw coming, Dana Shepard decided to take a plea deal. On Shepard decided to take a plea deal. On Shepard decided to take a plea deal. On January 23rd of this year, 2026, our January 23rd of this year, 2026, our January 23rd of this year, 2026, our reporter Nicole was in the courtroom reporter Nicole was in the courtroom reporter Nicole was in the courtroom when Dana plead guilty to one count of when Dana plead guilty to one count of when Dana plead guilty to one count of murder and was sentenced to 45 years at murder and was sentenced to 45 years at murder and was sentenced to 45 years at the Indiana Department of Corrections. the Indiana Department of Corrections. the Indiana Department of Corrections. While handing down the sentence, the While handing down the sentence, the While handing down the sentence, the presiding judge actually said this case, presiding judge actually said this case, presiding judge actually said this case, Carmen's case, was the worst he's seen. Carmen's case, was the worst he's seen. Carmen's case, was the worst he's seen. Now, what this plea deal means is that Now, what this plea deal means is that Now, what this plea deal means is that Dana accepted responsibility for Dana accepted responsibility for Dana accepted responsibility for Carmen's murder in the eyes of the law. Carmen's murder in the eyes of the law. Carmen's murder in the eyes of the law. But per the agreement reached with the But per the agreement reached with the But per the agreement reached with the state, the second murder charge and the state, the second murder charge and the state, the second murder charge and the charge of rape with a deadly weapon were charge of rape with a deadly weapon were charge of rape with a deadly weapon were both dropped. The plea also means that both dropped. The plea also means that both dropped. The plea also means that Dana doesn't have to ever get on the Dana doesn't have to ever get on the Dana doesn't have to ever get on the stand or make his case for what exactly stand or make his case for what exactly stand or make his case for what exactly happened on March 23rd, 1993.

happened on March 23rd, 1993. happened on March 23rd, 1993. Which still leaves us and more Which still leaves us and more Which still leaves us and more importantly Carmen's family with a lot importantly Carmen's family with a lot importantly Carmen's family with a lot of unanswered questions. They told us of unanswered questions. They told us of unanswered questions. They told us it's sort of bittersweet. In a it's sort of bittersweet. In a it's sort of bittersweet. In a statement, Carmen's sister Pam said, statement, Carmen's sister Pam said, statement, Carmen's sister Pam said, quote, "While this plea deal was not our quote, "While this plea deal was not our quote, "While this plea deal was not our first choice, we are grateful that after first choice, we are grateful that after first choice, we are grateful that after 33 years, the man responsible for 33 years, the man responsible for 33 years, the man responsible for Carmen's brutal rape and murder is Carmen's brutal rape and murder is Carmen's brutal rape and murder is finally being held accountable. For finally being held accountable. For finally being held accountable. For decades, the perpetrator was able to decades, the perpetrator was able to decades, the perpetrator was able to live a normal life after taking that live a normal life after taking that live a normal life after taking that right away from Carmen and from our right away from Carmen and from our right away from Carmen and from our family. Nothing can undo that loss or family. Nothing can undo that loss or family. Nothing can undo that loss or erase the injustice of him living freely erase the injustice of him living freely erase the injustice of him living freely for so long. But we are thankful that for so long. But we are thankful that for so long. But we are thankful that the truth has finally come to light and the truth has finally come to light and the truth has finally come to light and that he has not escaped [music] justice. that he has not escaped [music] justice. that he has not escaped [music] justice. That justice is what has been fueling That justice is what has been fueling That justice is what has been fueling Pam. Justice for Carmen and justice for Pam. Justice for Carmen and justice for Pam. Justice for Carmen and justice for other families who are in the same other families who are in the same other families who are in the same position she was. Which brings me to position she was. Which brings me to position she was. Which brings me to update number two. That bill that Pam update number two. That bill that Pam update number two. That bill that Pam was working on to expand access to was working on to expand access to was working on to expand access to advanced DNA testing for cold cases, advanced DNA testing for cold cases, advanced DNA testing for cold cases, [music] Carmen's Law, it was passed [music] Carmen's Law, it was passed [music] Carmen's Law, it was passed unanimously by the Indiana State Senate.

unanimously by the Indiana State Senate. unanimously by the Indiana State Senate. And in March, it was signed into law by And in March, it was signed into law by And in March, it was signed into law by the governor. That means that there will the governor. That means that there will the governor. That means that there will now be an established framework for now be an established framework for now be an established framework for private funding of advanced DNA testing private funding of advanced DNA testing private funding of advanced DNA testing in all cases that have gone unsolved for in all cases that have gone unsolved for in all cases that have gone unsolved for five or more years. And it's due to the five or more years. And it's due to the five or more years. And it's due to the tireless efforts of Carmen's sister, tireless efforts of Carmen's sister, tireless efforts of Carmen's sister, Pam, who championed this bill, not only Pam, who championed this bill, not only Pam, who championed this bill, not only on behalf of her sister, but also for on behalf of her sister, but also for on behalf of her sister, but also for all of the other families out there who all of the other families out there who all of the other families out there who will no longer have to feel powerless will no longer have to feel powerless will no longer have to feel powerless like her and her family did for so long. like her and her family did for so long. like her and her family did for so long. We are going to link to more information We are going to link to more information We are going to link to more information about this bill and all of the source about this bill and all of the source about this bill and all of the source material for this episode on our material for this episode on our material for this episode on our website.