Is a Juror Refusing to Follow the Law in the Lindsay Clancy Trial?

Okay, so I thought that the next time I Okay, so I thought that the next time I would be coming on with you guys would would be coming on with you guys would would be coming on with you guys would be for [music] a verdict or an outcome be for [music] a verdict or an outcome be for [music] a verdict or an outcome in the Lindsay Clancy trial, but day six in the Lindsay Clancy trial, but day six in the Lindsay Clancy trial, but day six of deliberations was so wild with what of deliberations was so wild with what of deliberations was so wild with what unfolded in court, unexpected things unfolded in court, unexpected things unfolded in court, unexpected things [music] that unfolded in court that I [music] that unfolded in court that I [music] that unfolded in court that I wanted to come on here to not only wanted to come on here to not only wanted to come on here to not only debrief and break down debrief and break down debrief and break down what we all witnessed today, but also what we all witnessed today, but also what we all witnessed today, but also try to explain from a very credible try to explain from a very credible try to explain from a very credible source what's going to happen next in source what's going to happen next in source what's going to happen next in the Lindsay Clancy trial. If you guys the Lindsay Clancy trial. If you guys the Lindsay Clancy trial. If you guys have been following the case, you know have been following the case, you know have been following the case, you know that Lindsay Clancy has been on trial that Lindsay Clancy has been on trial that Lindsay Clancy has been on trial for the murder of her three kids in for the murder of her three kids in for the murder of her three kids in Massachusetts. And the crux of the case Massachusetts. And the crux of the case Massachusetts. And the crux of the case has been whether or not she is has been whether or not she is has been whether or not she is criminally responsible for the killings criminally responsible for the killings criminally responsible for the killings or not. The defense team has argued that or not. The defense team has argued that or not. The defense team has argued that she was in postpartum psychosis at the she was in postpartum psychosis at the she was in postpartum psychosis at the time, time, time, >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> and the prosecution says that these >> and the prosecution says that these >> and the prosecution says that these acts, this the killings were deliberate acts, this the killings were deliberate acts, this the killings were deliberate and they were intentional. Now, [music] and they were intentional. Now, [music] and they were intentional. Now, [music] we knew that this was going to be a we knew that this was going to be a we knew that this was going to be a tough deliberation for the jury. And tough deliberation for the jury. And tough deliberation for the jury. And part of the reason we knew that was part of the reason we knew that was part of the reason we knew that was because there has been like a split because there has been like a split because there has been like a split [music] [music] [music] online as to who feels she is guilty and online as to who feels she is guilty and online as to who feels she is guilty and should be held criminally responsible should be held criminally responsible should be held criminally responsible and who doesn't. But what we didn't and who doesn't. But what we didn't and who doesn't. But what we didn't expect is how this has unfolded to expect is how this has unfolded to expect is how this has unfolded to today, day six. [music] And I did not today, day six. [music] And I did not today, day six. [music] And I did not think we were going to be here, but here think we were going to be here, but here think we were going to be here, but here we are. And we got to talk about it. So, we are. And we got to talk about it. So, we are. And we got to talk about it. So, when we last left things with when we last left things with when we last left things with deliberations with the jury, deliberations with the jury, deliberations with the jury, they had gone back for several days.

they had gone back for several days. they had gone back for several days. They came back earlier this week and They came back earlier this week and They came back earlier this week and said, "We are at an impasse. said, "We are at an impasse. said, "We are at an impasse. We are deadlocked. We are deadlocked. We are deadlocked. We can't agree." We can't agree." We can't agree." And the judge then gave what's And the judge then gave what's And the judge then gave what's considered an informal instruction to considered an informal instruction to considered an informal instruction to try again, that you want to try to come try again, that you want to try to come try again, that you want to try to come to a verdict. So, the jury went back for to a verdict. So, the jury went back for to a verdict. So, the jury went back for like 12 hours and then came back [music] like 12 hours and then came back [music] like 12 hours and then came back [music] a second time and said, "After many a second time and said, "After many a second time and said, "After many hours of deliberations, we are still at hours of deliberations, we are still at hours of deliberations, we are still at this impasse." this impasse." this impasse." And then the judge issued what's And then the judge issued what's And then the judge issued what's considered a Tuey-Rodriguez charge. considered a Tuey-Rodriguez charge. considered a Tuey-Rodriguez charge. That's what it's called in That's what it's called in That's what it's called in Massachusetts. And that basically is a Massachusetts. And that basically is a Massachusetts. And that basically is a special instruction. He actually reads special instruction. He actually reads special instruction. He actually reads the instructions to then [music] go the instructions to then [music] go the instructions to then [music] go back, remind them of their duties, and back, remind them of their duties, and back, remind them of their duties, and encourage them to continue on encourage them to continue on encourage them to continue on deliberations. Now, that charge is deliberations. Now, that charge is deliberations. Now, that charge is sometimes known as a dynamite charge or sometimes known as a dynamite charge or sometimes known as a dynamite charge or an Allen charge. That is not in every an Allen charge. That is not in every an Allen charge. That is not in every state. state. state. >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> So, then the jury went back for a second >> So, then the jury went back for a second >> So, then the jury went back for a second time to deliberate. And that brings us time to deliberate. And that brings us time to deliberate. And that brings us to today and what happened today. to today and what happened today. to today and what happened today. Because that charge was read, Because that charge was read, Because that charge was read, >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> everybody was expecting at some point >> everybody was expecting at some point >> everybody was expecting at some point today to very likely get a hung jury and today to very likely get a hung jury and today to very likely get a hung jury and a mistrial. [music] a mistrial. [music] a mistrial. [music] Because once that Tsui Rodriguez is Because once that Tsui Rodriguez is Because once that Tsui Rodriguez is read, he can't read that again, the read, he can't read that again, the read, he can't read that again, the judge. Basically, at that point, if the judge. Basically, at that point, if the judge. Basically, at that point, if the jury were to come back and say we're jury were to come back and say we're jury were to come back and say we're deadlocked for a third time, that would deadlocked for a third time, that would deadlocked for a third time, that would likely be it. But what unfolded in the likely be it. But what unfolded in the likely be it. But what unfolded in the courtroom was much different. So, in the courtroom was much different. So, in the courtroom was much different. So, in the afternoon today, afternoon today, afternoon today, there was a note that was sent to the there was a note that was sent to the there was a note that was sent to the judge. And typically in the past judge. And typically in the past judge. And typically in the past >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> with this week, when there's been a >> with this week, when there's been a >> with this week, when there's been a note, it has been that they are note, it has been that they are note, it has been that they are deadlocked. But deadlocked. But deadlocked. But as everybody was watching the pool feed as everybody was watching the pool feed as everybody was watching the pool feed live on on Court TV or or other networks

live on on Court TV or or other networks live on on Court TV or or other networks that are streaming this live, you that are streaming this live, you that are streaming this live, you quickly could tell that it wasn't just a quickly could tell that it wasn't just a quickly could tell that it wasn't just a a deadlocked note. Like there was a deadlocked note. Like there was a deadlocked note. Like there was something going on. So, then according something going on. So, then according something going on. So, then according to the feed and what the reporters were to the feed and what the reporters were to the feed and what the reporters were reporting inside the courtroom, reporting inside the courtroom, reporting inside the courtroom, everybody was brought in and they went everybody was brought in and they went everybody was brought in and they went to a sidebar. Now, they've gone to a to a sidebar. Now, they've gone to a to a sidebar. Now, they've gone to a sidebar each time there is something. sidebar each time there is something. sidebar each time there is something. Typically, the judge will let the Typically, the judge will let the Typically, the judge will let the attorneys know what's going on. But this attorneys know what's going on. But this attorneys know what's going on. But this is where the reports were [music] is where the reports were [music] is where the reports were [music] that everything like took a turn. Kevin that everything like took a turn. Kevin that everything like took a turn. Kevin Reddington, the defense attorney, was Reddington, the defense attorney, was Reddington, the defense attorney, was angry. He was throwing papers at one angry. He was throwing papers at one angry. He was throwing papers at one point, kind of slamming his fist down, point, kind of slamming his fist down, point, kind of slamming his fist down, the judge was yelling, the prosecution the judge was yelling, the prosecution the judge was yelling, the prosecution was super stoic. Then at one point, we was super stoic. Then at one point, we was super stoic. Then at one point, we never see this, the defense attorney, never see this, the defense attorney, never see this, the defense attorney, Kevin Reddington, actually brought Kevin Reddington, actually brought Kevin Reddington, actually brought Lindsay Clancy up in her wheelchair to Lindsay Clancy up in her wheelchair to Lindsay Clancy up in her wheelchair to the sidebar. Like that does not happen. the sidebar. Like that does not happen. the sidebar. Like that does not happen. You don't bring a defendant up to the You don't bring a defendant up to the You don't bring a defendant up to the sidebar. sidebar. sidebar. They were now talking about whatever was They were now talking about whatever was They were now talking about whatever was going on. And again, everyone's watching going on. And again, everyone's watching going on. And again, everyone's watching this going down, but nobody actually this going down, but nobody actually this going down, but nobody actually knows what's happening at that point. knows what's happening at that point. knows what's happening at that point. Then they're questioning the jury Then they're questioning the jury Then they're questioning the jury foreperson. [music] foreperson. [music] foreperson. [music] So, now that person is talking to the So, now that person is talking to the So, now that person is talking to the judge as well and you now realize that judge as well and you now realize that judge as well and you now realize that like something had happened in the like something had happened in the like something had happened in the deliberation room.

deliberation room. deliberation room. They weren't bringing in alternate They weren't bringing in alternate They weren't bringing in alternate jurors, but something had gone down jurors, but something had gone down jurors, but something had gone down and we were going to learn what it was. and we were going to learn what it was. and we were going to learn what it was. So this madness all ensues. So this madness all ensues. So this madness all ensues. >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> Tense moments in the courtroom. >> Tense moments in the courtroom. >> Tense moments in the courtroom. Reddington's pissed. The prosecution Reddington's pissed. The prosecution Reddington's pissed. The prosecution looks like they don't even know what's looks like they don't even know what's looks like they don't even know what's like what's happening. And then they like what's happening. And then they like what's happening. And then they finally say, "Okay, we're going to call finally say, "Okay, we're going to call finally say, "Okay, we're going to call the jurors back in and and the jurors back in and and the jurors back in and and >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> we're going to go on the record." >> we're going to go on the record." >> we're going to go on the record." And And And when they did that, Judge Sullivan when they did that, Judge Sullivan when they did that, Judge Sullivan basically reminded them the definition basically reminded them the definition basically reminded them the definition of reasonable doubt and how reasonable of reasonable doubt and how reasonable of reasonable doubt and how reasonable doubt is interpreted by the law. What it doubt is interpreted by the law. What it doubt is interpreted by the law. What it means by law to look at the burden of means by law to look at the burden of means by law to look at the burden of reasonable doubt and asked if the jurors reasonable doubt and asked if the jurors reasonable doubt and asked if the jurors could could follow that. And then they could could follow that. And then they could could follow that. And then they were sent back to deliberate for a third were sent back to deliberate for a third were sent back to deliberate for a third time. A third time. And there is I want time. A third time. And there is I want time. A third time. And there is I want to read a quote um kind of going off of to read a quote um kind of going off of to read a quote um kind of going off of my notes and my phone here um that kind my notes and my phone here um that kind my notes and my phone here um that kind of talks about like what were what were of talks about like what were what were of talks about like what were what were referencing when it comes to this. referencing when it comes to this. referencing when it comes to this. [music] He actually referenced [music] He actually referenced [music] He actually referenced the instruction of reasonable doubt and the instruction of reasonable doubt and the instruction of reasonable doubt and this was a quote from Judge Sullivan.

this was a quote from Judge Sullivan. this was a quote from Judge Sullivan. "Proof beyond a reasonable doubt doesn't "Proof beyond a reasonable doubt doesn't "Proof beyond a reasonable doubt doesn't mean proof beyond all possible doubt." mean proof beyond all possible doubt." mean proof beyond all possible doubt." So that was an interesting line there. So that was an interesting line there. So that was an interesting line there. Perhaps [music] the the juror was Perhaps [music] the the juror was Perhaps [music] the the juror was confused. But then Kevin Reddington got confused. But then Kevin Reddington got confused. But then Kevin Reddington got up to the stand. He started talking up to the stand. He started talking up to the stand. He started talking about what was going on. He wanted the about what was going on. He wanted the about what was going on. He wanted the public to know what had happened. And public to know what had happened. And public to know what had happened. And that's when Big Red, as people refer to that's when Big Red, as people refer to that's when Big Red, as people refer to him, him, him, said that there was one juror who was said that there was one juror who was said that there was one juror who was holding out and not following the law holding out and not following the law holding out and not following the law when it came to reasonable doubt. So when it came to reasonable doubt. So when it came to reasonable doubt. So Reddington wanted that juror booted out, Reddington wanted that juror booted out, Reddington wanted that juror booted out, gone, done. gone, done. gone, done. >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> And the prosecution was like, "No, we >> And the prosecution was like, "No, we >> And the prosecution was like, "No, we don't want that. Keep the juror there." don't want that. Keep the juror there." don't want that. Keep the juror there." The judge said, "Look, I'm not taking The judge said, "Look, I'm not taking The judge said, "Look, I'm not taking either side on this, but I have now either side on this, but I have now either side on this, but I have now reread them this reasonable doubt reread them this reasonable doubt reread them this reasonable doubt instruction. instruction. instruction. And I'm going to have them deliberate And I'm going to have them deliberate And I'm going to have them deliberate and your your objection Redington is and your your objection Redington is and your your objection Redington is noted, but we're going to go forward and noted, but we're going to go forward and noted, but we're going to go forward and continue on. I also want to note when continue on. I also want to note when continue on. I also want to note when Kevin Redington came outside, he's Kevin Redington came outside, he's Kevin Redington came outside, he's usually pretty spicy with the reporters usually pretty spicy with the reporters usually pretty spicy with the reporters and somebody asked if he would want a and somebody asked if he would want a and somebody asked if he would want a mistrial and he said, "No, I don't want mistrial and he said, "No, I don't want mistrial and he said, "No, I don't want a mistrial." And then the quote was, a mistrial." And then the quote was, a mistrial." And then the quote was, "Why would I want a mistrial? I'm "Why would I want a mistrial? I'm "Why would I want a mistrial? I'm beating the [ __ ] out of their case."

beating the [ __ ] out of their case." beating the [ __ ] out of their case." So there is that. So there is that. So there is that. And he just said his anger in the And he just said his anger in the And he just said his anger in the courtroom was directed to the fact courtroom was directed to the fact courtroom was directed to the fact [music] that he wants all of what's [music] that he wants all of what's [music] that he wants all of what's going on to be in open court so the going on to be in open court so the going on to be in open court so the public is aware of what's going on so public is aware of what's going on so public is aware of what's going on so that Lindsey's aware of what's going on that Lindsey's aware of what's going on that Lindsey's aware of what's going on and that it's not like some secretive and that it's not like some secretive and that it's not like some secretive conversation. That was where he said his conversation. That was where he said his conversation. That was where he said his anger was derived from. So when Kevin anger was derived from. So when Kevin anger was derived from. So when Kevin Redington came out of the courthouse to Redington came out of the courthouse to Redington came out of the courthouse to talk to reporters outside, talk to reporters outside, talk to reporters outside, he basically said that this juror has he basically said that this juror has he basically said that this juror has been identified and now there will be a been identified and now there will be a been identified and now there will be a juror inquiry tomorrow morning. That juror inquiry tomorrow morning. That juror inquiry tomorrow morning. That basically means that they will voir dire basically means that they will voir dire basically means that they will voir dire this juror, they'll talk to this juror, this juror, they'll talk to this juror, this juror, they'll talk to this juror, question this juror. question this juror. question this juror. And there's a few different options that And there's a few different options that And there's a few different options that could happen from there. We don't could happen from there. We don't could happen from there. We don't exactly know how that will play out. It exactly know how that will play out. It exactly know how that will play out. It is not against the law [music] to have a is not against the law [music] to have a is not against the law [music] to have a different different opinion than the different different opinion than the different different opinion than the other jurors, but if the juror isn't other jurors, but if the juror isn't other jurors, but if the juror isn't following the law, following the law, following the law, that's a huge problem. Uniquely here, we that's a huge problem. Uniquely here, we that's a huge problem. Uniquely here, we don't typically know the split. Now the don't typically know the split. Now the don't typically know the split. Now the the interpretation that one could take the interpretation that one could take the interpretation that one could take from what happened is that the 11 to 1 from what happened is that the 11 to 1 from what happened is that the 11 to 1 was in favor of the defense because was in favor of the defense because was in favor of the defense because Redington wanted that juror out. [music] Redington wanted that juror out. [music] Redington wanted that juror out. [music] He I mean he was angry that the juror He I mean he was angry that the juror He I mean he was angry that the juror was able to continue on. And so um the was able to continue on. And so um the was able to continue on. And so um the kind of assumption of people watching kind of assumption of people watching kind of assumption of people watching this was that, "Oh, it could be 11 to 1 this was that, "Oh, it could be 11 to 1 this was that, "Oh, it could be 11 to 1 not guilty by reason of insanity or even not guilty by reason of insanity or even not guilty by reason of insanity or even just not guilty at all, though that just not guilty at all, though that just not guilty at all, though that would be highly unlikely based on the would be highly unlikely based on the would be highly unlikely based on the trial and the set of facts that are trial and the set of facts that are trial and the set of facts that are actually presented to the jurors." But actually presented to the jurors." But actually presented to the jurors." But he came outside after and said we don't he came outside after and said we don't he came outside after and said we don't know the split or we don't know well know the split or we don't know well know the split or we don't know well what side it is, but that there's one

what side it is, but that there's one what side it is, but that there's one juror that's holding out and it comes juror that's holding out and it comes juror that's holding out and it comes down to reasonable doubt. So, down to reasonable doubt. So, down to reasonable doubt. So, where does this leave everything? I where does this leave everything? I where does this leave everything? I mean, this was a wild day in court mean, this was a wild day in court mean, this was a wild day in court >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> and it took a lot of people by surprise >> and it took a lot of people by surprise >> and it took a lot of people by surprise who were not only in there, but watching who were not only in there, but watching who were not only in there, but watching this unfold live. We all thought that this unfold live. We all thought that this unfold live. We all thought that there was a high likelihood that this there was a high likelihood that this there was a high likelihood that this was going to end today. was going to end today. was going to end today. It is not. We're going into day seven of It is not. We're going into day seven of It is not. We're going into day seven of deliberations. So, deliberations. So, deliberations. So, I've gotten texts, we've gotten I've gotten texts, we've gotten I've gotten texts, we've gotten messages, people very confused. What messages, people very confused. What messages, people very confused. What does this mean for the juror? What does does this mean for the juror? What does does this mean for the juror? What does this mean for the possible outcomes of this mean for the possible outcomes of this mean for the possible outcomes of this case? I wanted to interview this case? I wanted to interview this case? I wanted to interview somebody who would have like the somebody who would have like the somebody who would have like the authority on this and that is Maricopa authority on this and that is Maricopa authority on this and that is Maricopa County Attorney Rachel Mitchell. She is County Attorney Rachel Mitchell. She is County Attorney Rachel Mitchell. She is one of the top prosecutors in the state one of the top prosecutors in the state one of the top prosecutors in the state of Arizona and she can kind of look at of Arizona and she can kind of look at of Arizona and she can kind of look at this from a legal perspective and tell this from a legal perspective and tell this from a legal perspective and tell us what is unusual about this, what us what is unusual about this, what us what is unusual about this, what isn't unusual about this, what we can isn't unusual about this, what we can isn't unusual about this, what we can expect to happen with this juror, and expect to happen with this juror, and expect to happen with this juror, and what they need to look at because like what they need to look at because like what they need to look at because like the worst that could happen here is that the worst that could happen here is that the worst that could happen here is that if there's an outcome, if there's an outcome, if there's an outcome, could be immediate appeal depending on could be immediate appeal depending on could be immediate appeal depending on what plays out. And this is a super what plays out. And this is a super what plays out. And this is a super sensitive issue with what the judge sensitive issue with what the judge sensitive issue with what the judge decides to do as we continue to move decides to do as we continue to move decides to do as we continue to move forward. So, I interviewed Rachel forward. So, I interviewed Rachel forward. So, I interviewed Rachel Mitchell. I want to play that for you Mitchell. I want to play that for you Mitchell. I want to play that for you guys just so I can kind of bring you guys just so I can kind of bring you guys just so I can kind of bring you guys into the same questions that I had guys into the same questions that I had guys into the same questions that I had for her in real time so that we're all for her in real time so that we're all for her in real time so that we're all up to date as we go into day seven of up to date as we go into day seven of up to date as we go into day seven of deliberations. So, this was my interview deliberations. So, this was my interview deliberations. So, this was my interview with County Attorney Rachel Mitchell as with County Attorney Rachel Mitchell as with County Attorney Rachel Mitchell as to how we move forward in the Lindsay to how we move forward in the Lindsay to how we move forward in the Lindsay Clancy case, what we should expect to Clancy case, what we should expect to Clancy case, what we should expect to happen, and what could come from all of happen, and what could come from all of happen, and what could come from all of the drama that's played out. I have a

the drama that's played out. I have a the drama that's played out. I have a million questions for you. I think the million questions for you. I think the million questions for you. I think the first one being first one being first one being how exceptionally unusual is what how exceptionally unusual is what how exceptionally unusual is what happened today? happened today? happened today? >> Well, it's not entirely unusual to have >> Well, it's not entirely unusual to have >> Well, it's not entirely unusual to have obviously a jury that is hung um or that obviously a jury that is hung um or that obviously a jury that is hung um or that it it's not unusual to have it it's not unusual to have it it's not unusual to have an instruction reread. Uh the number of an instruction reread. Uh the number of an instruction reread. Uh the number of times that this has happened kind of times that this has happened kind of times that this has happened kind of puts it on the map a little bit. And so, puts it on the map a little bit. And so, puts it on the map a little bit. And so, you know, normally what would happen um you know, normally what would happen um you know, normally what would happen um here in Arizona is if a jury said that here in Arizona is if a jury said that here in Arizona is if a jury said that it was hung, it was hung, it was hung, um they would be read read a an impasse um they would be read read a an impasse um they would be read read a an impasse instruction, which basically says gives instruction, which basically says gives instruction, which basically says gives them some guidance about how they should them some guidance about how they should them some guidance about how they should deliberate, how they should break it deliberate, how they should break it deliberate, how they should break it down in terms of, you know, down in terms of, you know, down in terms of, you know, chart out your areas of agreement and chart out your areas of agreement and chart out your areas of agreement and your areas of disagreement, focus on the your areas of disagreement, focus on the your areas of disagreement, focus on the evidence that way. evidence that way. evidence that way. Um but what you don't want to do is to Um but what you don't want to do is to Um but what you don't want to do is to in any way try to persuade anybody to in any way try to persuade anybody to in any way try to persuade anybody to change how they're voting. change how they're voting. change how they're voting. So, you have to be very delicate in how So, you have to be very delicate in how So, you have to be very delicate in how you instruct them. You can also tell you instruct them. You can also tell you instruct them. You can also tell them, them, them, um we're here to help if you need um we're here to help if you need um we're here to help if you need further instructions, further instructions, further instructions, uh if you need even additional argument, uh if you need even additional argument, uh if you need even additional argument, uh we can do that here in Arizona.

uh we can do that here in Arizona. uh we can do that here in Arizona. The hook in this case came when you have The hook in this case came when you have The hook in this case came when you have one juror saying that another juror is one juror saying that another juror is one juror saying that another juror is not following the law. And so, you have not following the law. And so, you have not following the law. And so, you have to to to explore that. You have to look at, well, explore that. You have to look at, well, explore that. You have to look at, well, what what exactly did that juror say? what what exactly did that juror say? what what exactly did that juror say? So, the person who writes the note So, the person who writes the note So, the person who writes the note saying this juror back in the room says saying this juror back in the room says saying this juror back in the room says they won't follow the law, what exactly they won't follow the law, what exactly they won't follow the law, what exactly did that person say? You may want to did that person say? You may want to did that person say? You may want to question that juror as well. And you question that juror as well. And you question that juror as well. And you have to delineate between is this have to delineate between is this have to delineate between is this somebody who just doesn't agree, does somebody who just doesn't agree, does somebody who just doesn't agree, does not agree that this is or is not beyond not agree that this is or is not beyond not agree that this is or is not beyond a reasonable doubt, or is this somebody a reasonable doubt, or is this somebody a reasonable doubt, or is this somebody who is saying I am not going to apply who is saying I am not going to apply who is saying I am not going to apply that standard? Because as we know, that standard? Because as we know, that standard? Because as we know, jurors are under oath to follow the law, jurors are under oath to follow the law, jurors are under oath to follow the law, and uh they they have a duty to and uh they they have a duty to and uh they they have a duty to deliberate as well. deliberate as well. deliberate as well. >> So, is it possible that this juror is >> So, is it possible that this juror is >> So, is it possible that this juror is just just just I I I I guess it could be considered jury I guess it could be considered jury I guess it could be considered jury nullification, but is is just saying nullification, but is is just saying nullification, but is is just saying I'm not doing it. I'm not I'm not I'm not doing it. I'm not I'm not I'm not doing it. I'm not I'm not following it. These are my beliefs. following it. These are my beliefs. following it. These are my beliefs. That's that. I don't really care what That's that. I don't really care what That's that. I don't really care what you say about reasonable doubt. This is you say about reasonable doubt. This is you say about reasonable doubt. This is what I think.

what I think. what I think. >> You know, there are so many >> You know, there are so many >> You know, there are so many possibilities. And and really what's possibilities. And and really what's possibilities. And and really what's going to be important is to get to the going to be important is to get to the going to be important is to get to the bottom of what exactly this juror is bottom of what exactly this juror is bottom of what exactly this juror is saying. Is the juror saying, "I just saying. Is the juror saying, "I just saying. Is the juror saying, "I just don't think that there is proof beyond a don't think that there is proof beyond a don't think that there is proof beyond a reasonable doubt." Or I reasonable doubt." Or I reasonable doubt." Or I you know, think that there is proof you know, think that there is proof you know, think that there is proof beyond a reasonable doubt, and I just beyond a reasonable doubt, and I just beyond a reasonable doubt, and I just agree with 11 of you who think there is agree with 11 of you who think there is agree with 11 of you who think there is not. Um you have to look at that. You not. Um you have to look at that. You not. Um you have to look at that. You all But if the juror is sitting there all But if the juror is sitting there all But if the juror is sitting there saying, "I don't think that beyond a saying, "I don't think that beyond a saying, "I don't think that beyond a reasonable doubt should be the standard reasonable doubt should be the standard reasonable doubt should be the standard of proof required of me. If I think it's of proof required of me. If I think it's of proof required of me. If I think it's you know, 51 49, I'm going to vote with you know, 51 49, I'm going to vote with you know, 51 49, I'm going to vote with the 51." the 51." the 51." That's when you're trying to parse out That's when you're trying to parse out That's when you're trying to parse out is this person just disagreeing with 11 is this person just disagreeing with 11 is this person just disagreeing with 11 other people, or is this person truly other people, or is this person truly other people, or is this person truly not willing to follow the law? not willing to follow the law? not willing to follow the law? >> And so then Kevin Redington basically >> And so then Kevin Redington basically >> And so then Kevin Redington basically asked to remove the juror, and the judge asked to remove the juror, and the judge asked to remove the juror, and the judge said, said, said, "No, that would be a sensitive issue at "No, that would be a sensitive issue at "No, that would be a sensitive issue at this point." If they did remove the this point." If they did remove the this point." If they did remove the juror, would that have set up an juror, would that have set up an juror, would that have set up an immediate appeal for the prosecution?

immediate appeal for the prosecution? immediate appeal for the prosecution? >> Well, all of this sets up appellate >> Well, all of this sets up appellate >> Well, all of this sets up appellate issues. issues. issues. If there was an attempt to remove the If there was an attempt to remove the If there was an attempt to remove the juror, and the prosecution wanted that juror, and the prosecution wanted that juror, and the prosecution wanted that juror, then the remedy here would be to juror, then the remedy here would be to juror, then the remedy here would be to take a special action to try to stop take a special action to try to stop take a special action to try to stop that, but obviously you're working under that, but obviously you're working under that, but obviously you're working under a very tight schedule, so the success of a very tight schedule, so the success of a very tight schedule, so the success of that is is would be interesting. that is is would be interesting. that is is would be interesting. Um Um Um but of course if a prosecution loses, but of course if a prosecution loses, but of course if a prosecution loses, there is no there is no appeal. The there is no there is no appeal. The there is no there is no appeal. The prosecutor can't appeal after the prosecutor can't appeal after the prosecutor can't appeal after the verdict um that goes against them. On verdict um that goes against them. On verdict um that goes against them. On the other hand, if this is something the other hand, if this is something the other hand, if this is something where the defense is saying this person where the defense is saying this person where the defense is saying this person should not be on the jury, then yes, any should not be on the jury, then yes, any should not be on the jury, then yes, any of this sets up an appellate issue. The of this sets up an appellate issue. The of this sets up an appellate issue. The the defense can claim, "Well, the defense can claim, "Well, the defense can claim, "Well, uh this person should have been removed, uh this person should have been removed, uh this person should have been removed, or this person should have been or this person should have been or this person should have been questioned more thoroughly, or the questioned more thoroughly, or the questioned more thoroughly, or the questions were questions were questions were uh uh uh coercive in some way." You know, they're coercive in some way." You know, they're coercive in some way." You know, they're they're going to try to argue that uh they're going to try to argue that uh they're going to try to argue that uh something about this was improper and of something about this was improper and of something about this was improper and of course the ultimate goal of that is to course the ultimate goal of that is to course the ultimate goal of that is to get a new trial.

get a new trial. get a new trial. >> And Kevin Reddington said he does not >> And Kevin Reddington said he does not >> And Kevin Reddington said he does not want a a mistrial. want a a mistrial. want a a mistrial. He he wants to keep going with this. He he wants to keep going with this. He he wants to keep going with this. It does feel though that It does feel though that It does feel though that we still have an issue. I mean now we we still have an issue. I mean now we we still have an issue. I mean now we know the split number, we didn't know know the split number, we didn't know know the split number, we didn't know that before. So we know it's 11 to 1. that before. So we know it's 11 to 1. that before. So we know it's 11 to 1. But But But ultimately is it possible that after the ultimately is it possible that after the ultimately is it possible that after the being sent back three different times, being sent back three different times, being sent back three different times, they're still at this impasse? And then they're still at this impasse? And then they're still at this impasse? And then it's like to your point, you don't want it's like to your point, you don't want it's like to your point, you don't want to bully people into changing or you to bully people into changing or you to bully people into changing or you don't want to coerce them into changing. don't want to coerce them into changing. don't want to coerce them into changing. I I feel like we're we're kind of at I I feel like we're we're kind of at I I feel like we're we're kind of at that point now where they've come back that point now where they've come back that point now where they've come back and said we've tried we've tried we've and said we've tried we've tried we've and said we've tried we've tried we've tried and they've spent like hours and tried and they've spent like hours and tried and they've spent like hours and hours and hours doing that. So hours and hours doing that. So hours and hours doing that. So where does that fall in terms of like where does that fall in terms of like where does that fall in terms of like the morality of don't compromise your the morality of don't compromise your the morality of don't compromise your beliefs but go back and try for the beliefs but go back and try for the beliefs but go back and try for the third time? third time? third time? >> Well, it it again it kind of goes back >> Well, it it again it kind of goes back >> Well, it it again it kind of goes back to that question is do you have a juror to that question is do you have a juror to that question is do you have a juror that just disagrees with everybody or do that just disagrees with everybody or do that just disagrees with everybody or do you have a juror who's not willing to you have a juror who's not willing to you have a juror who's not willing to follow the law? If it's a juror who's follow the law? If it's a juror who's follow the law? If it's a juror who's not willing to follow the law, then not willing to follow the law, then not willing to follow the law, then one of the the things that you could do one of the the things that you could do one of the the things that you could do is is remove them from the jury and is is remove them from the jury and is is remove them from the jury and reconstitute the jury by bringing back reconstitute the jury by bringing back reconstitute the jury by bringing back an alternate juror if there are any an alternate juror if there are any an alternate juror if there are any left. Um but if it's a situation where left. Um but if it's a situation where left. Um but if it's a situation where the person just disagrees, I just don't the person just disagrees, I just don't the person just disagrees, I just don't think the evidence is sufficient or I think the evidence is sufficient or I think the evidence is sufficient or I think it is sufficient and the rest of think it is sufficient and the rest of think it is sufficient and the rest of you don't.

you don't. you don't. That's a hung jury and at some point you That's a hung jury and at some point you That's a hung jury and at some point you you call it a day. you call it a day. you call it a day. >> It's just like it's crazy how this is >> It's just like it's crazy how this is >> It's just like it's crazy how this is kind of unfolded with just the drama too kind of unfolded with just the drama too kind of unfolded with just the drama too of it. The the of it. The the of it. The the yelling and and what are we doing in yelling and and what are we doing in yelling and and what are we doing in open court versus not? And so now that open court versus not? And so now that open court versus not? And so now that is kind of a factor here. Reddington is kind of a factor here. Reddington is kind of a factor here. Reddington wants this juror inquiry tomorrow wants this juror inquiry tomorrow wants this juror inquiry tomorrow morning to be in open court. How how morning to be in open court. How how morning to be in open court. How how does that work if you're not identifying does that work if you're not identifying does that work if you're not identifying the juror? I mean seems like they have the juror? I mean seems like they have the juror? I mean seems like they have the juror identified in there but like the juror identified in there but like the juror identified in there but like the public doesn't know who the juror the public doesn't know who the juror the public doesn't know who the juror is. So, if you're holding this, you is. So, if you're holding this, you is. So, if you're holding this, you know, voir dire of the juror in open know, voir dire of the juror in open know, voir dire of the juror in open court, is that a is that an issue, too? court, is that a is that an issue, too? court, is that a is that an issue, too? >> Well, um courts are generally open to >> Well, um courts are generally open to >> Well, um courts are generally open to the public, and so it's the exception the public, and so it's the exception the public, and so it's the exception that it's not open to the public. What's that it's not open to the public. What's that it's not open to the public. What's a little bit unusual here, actually very a little bit unusual here, actually very a little bit unusual here, actually very unusual here, is that we know the split. unusual here, is that we know the split. unusual here, is that we know the split. Uh one of the things that uh we do here Uh one of the things that uh we do here Uh one of the things that uh we do here in Arizona is if a note comes out that in Arizona is if a note comes out that in Arizona is if a note comes out that they are hung, um we make sure that they they are hung, um we make sure that they they are hung, um we make sure that they do not tell us the split because, you do not tell us the split because, you do not tell us the split because, you know, it could be 6-6, it could be 1 to know, it could be 6-6, it could be 1 to know, it could be 6-6, it could be 1 to 11. You you don't want to know that. The 11. You you don't want to know that. The 11. You you don't want to know that. The judge doesn't want to know that so that judge doesn't want to know that so that judge doesn't want to know that so that it seems like they're persuading one way it seems like they're persuading one way it seems like they're persuading one way or another. So, now they know the split, or another. So, now they know the split, or another. So, now they know the split, they know it's one person, they have to they know it's one person, they have to they know it's one person, they have to be very, very cautious in how they do be very, very cautious in how they do be very, very cautious in how they do this.

this. this. >> So, how do you see this playing out? I >> So, how do you see this playing out? I >> So, how do you see this playing out? I mean, if you can even predict because I mean, if you can even predict because I mean, if you can even predict because I honestly cannot predict a single thing honestly cannot predict a single thing honestly cannot predict a single thing that has happened really in the last that has happened really in the last that has happened really in the last couple days, but I mean, couple days, but I mean, couple days, but I mean, based on the set of facts that we know, based on the set of facts that we know, based on the set of facts that we know, where we're going with this, what the where we're going with this, what the where we're going with this, what the jury has conveyed in these notes to the jury has conveyed in these notes to the jury has conveyed in these notes to the judge, what now? judge, what now? judge, what now? >> Well, I I mean, I think they're going to >> Well, I I mean, I think they're going to >> Well, I I mean, I think they're going to try to it sounds like they're going to try to it sounds like they're going to try to it sounds like they're going to try to get to the bottom of whether this try to get to the bottom of whether this try to get to the bottom of whether this juror is willing to follow the law. If juror is willing to follow the law. If juror is willing to follow the law. If the juror says, "I am willing to follow the juror says, "I am willing to follow the juror says, "I am willing to follow the law," the law," the law," um um um then then then that you're you know, if they can't that you're you know, if they can't that you're you know, if they can't reach a verdict, then it's a hung jury. reach a verdict, then it's a hung jury. reach a verdict, then it's a hung jury. I mean, that's just the way I mean, that's just the way I mean, that's just the way it works. So, it works. So, it works. So, that's going to be the the crux of it is that's going to be the the crux of it is that's going to be the the crux of it is is this juror following the law, willing is this juror following the law, willing is this juror following the law, willing to follow the law? If yes, then they can to follow the law? If yes, then they can to follow the law? If yes, then they can hang a jury. Uh you can have a 11 to one hang a jury. Uh you can have a 11 to one hang a jury. Uh you can have a 11 to one um hung jury. um hung jury. um hung jury. If no, um they're not willing to follow If no, um they're not willing to follow If no, um they're not willing to follow the law, then that's when additional the law, then that's when additional the law, then that's when additional steps can be taken like reconstituting steps can be taken like reconstituting steps can be taken like reconstituting the jury with an alternate.

the jury with an alternate. the jury with an alternate. >> And let me ask you this as just a >> And let me ask you this as just a >> And let me ask you this as just a follow-up. follow-up. follow-up. What are the odds that this one person What are the odds that this one person What are the odds that this one person who's held out for days changes their who's held out for days changes their who's held out for days changes their viewpoint? viewpoint? viewpoint? >> I can only imagine that >> I can only imagine that >> I can only imagine that uh uh uh you know, that this has been explored you know, that this has been explored you know, that this has been explored with them already assuming they're with them already assuming they're with them already assuming they're following the law. following the law. following the law. Assuming they're willing to follow the Assuming they're willing to follow the Assuming they're willing to follow the law. Um law. Um law. Um I I it's unusual that they would I I it's unusual that they would I I it's unusual that they would probably change at this point. There are probably change at this point. There are probably change at this point. There are times when there is a misunderstanding times when there is a misunderstanding times when there is a misunderstanding of the law and additional instructions, of the law and additional instructions, of the law and additional instructions, additional argument can uh clarify additional argument can uh clarify additional argument can uh clarify something for a juror. something for a juror. something for a juror. Uh Uh Uh but you know, the it remains to be seen but you know, the it remains to be seen but you know, the it remains to be seen whether that will happen here. whether that will happen here. whether that will happen here. >> So, I hope that helps explain a little >> So, I hope that helps explain a little >> So, I hope that helps explain a little bit of what we all witnessed happen bit of what we all witnessed happen bit of what we all witnessed happen today. I don't think anybody could have today. I don't think anybody could have today. I don't think anybody could have expected how this trial was going to expected how this trial was going to expected how this trial was going to play out after the case went to the play out after the case went to the play out after the case went to the jury. jury. jury. Day seven, we're going to stay with Day seven, we're going to stay with Day seven, we're going to stay with this. We will bring you all the latest this. We will bring you all the latest this. We will bring you all the latest with much more perspective and context with much more perspective and context with much more perspective and context when there is a finality to this case, when there is a finality to this case, when there is a finality to this case, to this trial. So, stay with Crime to this trial. So, stay with Crime to this trial. So, stay with Crime Junkie. Thank you so much for watching Junkie. Thank you so much for watching Junkie. Thank you so much for watching this and we are in it with you guys this and we are in it with you guys this and we are in it with you guys until the end. Crime Junkie is an until the end. Crime Junkie is an until the end. Crime Junkie is an Audiochuck production.

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