Why Bryan Kohberger’s plea deal raised more questions than answers

A word of warning. This podcast explores A word of warning. This podcast explores graphic and disturbing stories and graphic and disturbing stories and graphic and disturbing stories and includes some strong language. It includes some strong language. It includes some strong language. It therefore may not be suitable for our therefore may not be suitable for our therefore may not be suitable for our young listeners or other folks who may young listeners or other folks who may young listeners or other folks who may find it [music] disturbing. Hello and find it [music] disturbing. Hello and find it [music] disturbing. Hello and welcome to a special edition of True welcome to a special edition of True welcome to a special edition of True Crime News, the podcast. I'm your host, Crime News, the podcast. I'm your host, Crime News, the podcast. I'm your host, Anna Garcia. Everyone in the world of Anna Garcia. Everyone in the world of Anna Garcia. Everyone in the world of true crime has a story to tell about a true crime has a story to tell about a true crime has a story to tell about a case that they've worked on or perhaps case that they've worked on or perhaps case that they've worked on or perhaps they've lived through. Some are they've lived through. Some are they've lived through. Some are high-profile, some you've never heard high-profile, some you've never heard high-profile, some you've never heard of, but they are all fascinating. of, but they are all fascinating. of, but they are all fascinating. Today's case, you for sure have heard Today's case, you for sure have heard Today's case, you for sure have heard of. The murders of four college students of. The murders of four college students of. The murders of four college students at an off-campus home in Idaho. Admitted at an off-campus home in Idaho. Admitted at an off-campus home in Idaho. Admitted killer Brian Cobberger took a plea deal killer Brian Cobberger took a plea deal killer Brian Cobberger took a plea deal to avoid the death penalty. Not all of to avoid the death penalty. Not all of to avoid the death penalty. Not all of the families of the victims feel like the families of the victims feel like the families of the victims feel like they got justice in this case or the they got justice in this case or the they got justice in this case or the answers that they needed. Our guest answers that they needed. Our guest answers that they needed. Our guest today is Christopher Wickham, a former today is Christopher Wickham, a former today is Christopher Wickham, a former FBI hostage rescue team sniper, an FBI hostage rescue team sniper, an FBI hostage rescue team sniper, an investigative journalist, and the author investigative journalist, and the author investigative journalist, and the author of a new book, Broken Plea: The of a new book, Broken Plea: The of a new book, Broken Plea: The Explosive Search for Truth Behind the Explosive Search for Truth Behind the Explosive Search for Truth Behind the Idaho Murders. Chris, welcome to the Idaho Murders. Chris, welcome to the Idaho Murders. Chris, welcome to the program. It's a pleasure to have you.

program. It's a pleasure to have you. program. It's a pleasure to have you. >> Thank you, Anna. Nice to talk to you. >> Thank you, Anna. Nice to talk to you. >> Thank you, Anna. Nice to talk to you. Chris, I feel like, you know, we've had Chris, I feel like, you know, we've had Chris, I feel like, you know, we've had so many conversations about this, so many conversations about this, so many conversations about this, meaning not just in the media because of meaning not just in the media because of meaning not just in the media because of the enormous media attention that this the enormous media attention that this the enormous media attention that this case has received, but but I feel like case has received, but but I feel like case has received, but but I feel like as a nation, we have lived through this as a nation, we have lived through this as a nation, we have lived through this tragedy and and there was the horror of tragedy and and there was the horror of tragedy and and there was the horror of the actual murders, the actual murders, the actual murders, the brutality of it, then the search for the brutality of it, then the search for the brutality of it, then the search for a killer in which everyone felt like a killer in which everyone felt like a killer in which everyone felt like they were at risk, if you will. So, um, they were at risk, if you will. So, um, they were at risk, if you will. So, um, is there anything left to be said about is there anything left to be said about is there anything left to be said about this case? this case? this case? >> Uh, well said. I would argue there's a >> Uh, well said. I would argue there's a >> Uh, well said. I would argue there's a lot to be said about this case. Um, lot to be said about this case. Um, lot to be said about this case. Um, we're going to start out talking about we're going to start out talking about we're going to start out talking about this book, which is a 450 page roughly this book, which is a 450 page roughly this book, which is a 450 page roughly encapsulation of elements of this case. encapsulation of elements of this case. encapsulation of elements of this case. Um, but the reason I wrote this book is Um, but the reason I wrote this book is Um, but the reason I wrote this book is because I feel there's so much because I feel there's so much because I feel there's so much unresolved. There are so many questions unresolved. There are so many questions unresolved. There are so many questions yet uh unasked and unanswered. So I I'll yet uh unasked and unanswered. So I I'll yet uh unasked and unanswered. So I I'll say upfront, many of your viewers may say upfront, many of your viewers may say upfront, many of your viewers may have seen me talking in other podcasts. have seen me talking in other podcasts. have seen me talking in other podcasts. What I would say is unresolved is I now What I would say is unresolved is I now What I would say is unresolved is I now know looking in hindsight at the last know looking in hindsight at the last know looking in hindsight at the last month or so, six weeks, whatever, um month or so, six weeks, whatever, um month or so, six weeks, whatever, um what has and what has not transferred what has and what has not transferred what has and what has not transferred from the book to the questions that from the book to the questions that from the book to the questions that people ask. And I'd love to talk about people ask. And I'd love to talk about people ask. And I'd love to talk about those issues today. I have a lot more to those issues today. I have a lot more to those issues today. I have a lot more to say about this now that I've gone say about this now that I've gone say about this now that I've gone through these questions in other through these questions in other through these questions in other formats. So I'm very excited to get into formats. So I'm very excited to get into formats. So I'm very excited to get into those with you.

those with you. those with you. >> Okay. Well, you know what? I'm just >> Okay. Well, you know what? I'm just >> Okay. Well, you know what? I'm just going to I'm just going to say to you, going to I'm just going to say to you, going to I'm just going to say to you, what's the one thing? Let's start. What what's the one thing? Let's start. What what's the one thing? Let's start. What do you want to answer? You give me the do you want to answer? You give me the do you want to answer? You give me the question. question. question. >> No, listen. I love the questions. We can >> No, listen. I love the questions. We can >> No, listen. I love the questions. We can talk about any aspect, but I'll say talk about any aspect, but I'll say talk about any aspect, but I'll say >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. Uh, you know, I think it's >> Yeah. Uh, you know, I think it's >> Yeah. Uh, you know, I think it's important to have a little bit of important to have a little bit of important to have a little bit of background because we live in an age now background because we live in an age now background because we live in an age now where everybody knows everything about where everybody knows everything about where everybody knows everything about anything and everybody has an opinion. anything and everybody has an opinion. anything and everybody has an opinion. As you said, this is a horrific tragedy. As you said, this is a horrific tragedy. As you said, this is a horrific tragedy. It is a case that will never go to It is a case that will never go to It is a case that will never go to trial. It's the first line in the book. trial. It's the first line in the book. trial. It's the first line in the book. You know, we begin at the end of this You know, we begin at the end of this You know, we begin at the end of this book. It's already uh I wrote this book book. It's already uh I wrote this book book. It's already uh I wrote this book after Brian Cobberger had plead guilty. after Brian Cobberger had plead guilty. after Brian Cobberger had plead guilty. So we know now what the prosecution So we know now what the prosecution So we know now what the prosecution said. We know what Brian Coberger has said. We know what Brian Coberger has said. We know what Brian Coberger has admitted to. But at that point now more admitted to. But at that point now more admitted to. But at that point now more than well over a year ago. Um, I was than well over a year ago. Um, I was than well over a year ago. Um, I was given access to the vast majority of given access to the vast majority of given access to the vast majority of this file, which people haven't seen, this file, which people haven't seen, this file, which people haven't seen, and we're talking about terabytes of and we're talking about terabytes of and we're talking about terabytes of information, by people involved in the information, by people involved in the information, by people involved in the investigation on both sides, meaning law investigation on both sides, meaning law investigation on both sides, meaning law enforcement, prosecution, and the enforcement, prosecution, and the enforcement, prosecution, and the defense, who felt uh I think maybe a a defense, who felt uh I think maybe a a defense, who felt uh I think maybe a a reasonable word would be outrage, but reasonable word would be outrage, but reasonable word would be outrage, but certainly very strong concern that the certainly very strong concern that the certainly very strong concern that the facts presented by the prosecution and facts presented by the prosecution and facts presented by the prosecution and plead guilty to by Brian Cobberger were plead guilty to by Brian Cobberger were plead guilty to by Brian Cobberger were not they did not match things they saw not they did not match things they saw not they did not match things they saw in the file itself. So I started looking in the file itself. So I started looking in the file itself. So I started looking through these documents and to the best through these documents and to the best through these documents and to the best of my knowledge and I talked about a lot of my knowledge and I talked about a lot of my knowledge and I talked about a lot of them in the book but the book's 400 of them in the book but the book's 400 of them in the book but the book's 400 and some odd pages and this document is and some odd pages and this document is and some odd pages and this document is terabyte or excuse me thisa thea the terabyte or excuse me thisa thea the terabyte or excuse me thisa thea the Brady disclosure the case file is vast

Brady disclosure the case file is vast Brady disclosure the case file is vast it's huge it's astonishingly large it it's huge it's astonishingly large it it's huge it's astonishingly large it took me months just to just to go took me months just to just to go took me months just to just to go through it so what we've got here now is through it so what we've got here now is through it so what we've got here now is on my part uh a law enforcementbased on my part uh a law enforcementbased on my part uh a law enforcementbased and let me let me say up front because and let me let me say up front because and let me let me say up front because your readers are So, or your viewers are your readers are So, or your viewers are your readers are So, or your viewers are so knowledgeable. Murder is not so knowledgeable. Murder is not so knowledgeable. Murder is not typically a federal crime. Uh, typically a federal crime. Uh, typically a federal crime. Uh, jurisdictions work different crimes. It jurisdictions work different crimes. It jurisdictions work different crimes. It can be in the federal system, but the can be in the federal system, but the can be in the federal system, but the FBI often works in association with and FBI often works in association with and FBI often works in association with and in support of law local law enforcement, in support of law local law enforcement, in support of law local law enforcement, local and state law enforcement. So, did local and state law enforcement. So, did local and state law enforcement. So, did I work investigate murder investigations I work investigate murder investigations I work investigate murder investigations as an FBI agent? Yes, two of them. Uh, as an FBI agent? Yes, two of them. Uh, as an FBI agent? Yes, two of them. Uh, so I have that background. Uh, and have so I have that background. Uh, and have so I have that background. Uh, and have I presented cases to grand juries? Yes, I presented cases to grand juries? Yes, I presented cases to grand juries? Yes, numerous. And have I testified in trials numerous. And have I testified in trials numerous. And have I testified in trials including murder trials and the answer including murder trials and the answer including murder trials and the answer to that is yes too. I tr testified in to that is yes too. I tr testified in to that is yes too. I tr testified in the case of Oscar Ray Bolan a serial the case of Oscar Ray Bolan a serial the case of Oscar Ray Bolan a serial killer who was actually uh eventually killer who was actually uh eventually killer who was actually uh eventually executed. So that's my experience base. executed. So that's my experience base. executed. So that's my experience base. Okay. What I wanted to do in this book Okay. What I wanted to do in this book Okay. What I wanted to do in this book for the first time, the only time to the for the first time, the only time to the for the first time, the only time to the best of my knowledge, is to look at the best of my knowledge, is to look at the best of my knowledge, is to look at the facts themselves as if I, uh, a federal facts themselves as if I, uh, a federal facts themselves as if I, uh, a federal investigator were building a case to investigator were building a case to investigator were building a case to present to a prosecutor, a grand jury, present to a prosecutor, a grand jury, present to a prosecutor, a grand jury, and eventually at trial uh, in ways that and eventually at trial uh, in ways that and eventually at trial uh, in ways that looked at the legal aspects, the looked at the legal aspects, the looked at the legal aspects, the forensic aspects, the evidentiary forensic aspects, the evidentiary forensic aspects, the evidentiary gathering aspects, and the judicial gathering aspects, and the judicial gathering aspects, and the judicial process. That was my goal. Now uh we can process. That was my goal. Now uh we can process. That was my goal. Now uh we can look back and say that is what I started look back and say that is what I started look back and say that is what I started with the next question. If you want me

with the next question. If you want me with the next question. If you want me to ask my own question I love the truth to ask my own question I love the truth to ask my own question I love the truth of if you ask me. of if you ask me. of if you ask me. >> It's a runaway podcast. Ask your own >> It's a runaway podcast. Ask your own >> It's a runaway podcast. Ask your own questions. questions. questions. >> It's a runaway podcast in [laughter] but >> It's a runaway podcast in [laughter] but >> It's a runaway podcast in [laughter] but what is my big uh what got me involved what is my big uh what got me involved what is my big uh what got me involved in the case? What's the number one in the case? What's the number one in the case? What's the number one question is what did I see that prompted question is what did I see that prompted question is what did I see that prompted me to spend a year of my life working on me to spend a year of my life working on me to spend a year of my life working on this book? What stood out when I uh this book? What stood out when I uh this book? What stood out when I uh write books about many many other write books about many many other write books about many many other topics? Why did I choose to take a year topics? Why did I choose to take a year topics? Why did I choose to take a year of my life to work on this particular of my life to work on this particular of my life to work on this particular thing? And it's because of anomalies I thing? And it's because of anomalies I thing? And it's because of anomalies I saw in the file that to this day do not saw in the file that to this day do not saw in the file that to this day do not match up and that I think warrant match up and that I think warrant match up and that I think warrant considerably more uh conversation and considerably more uh conversation and considerably more uh conversation and hopefully investigation. hopefully investigation. hopefully investigation. >> Well, don't you find though with murder >> Well, don't you find though with murder >> Well, don't you find though with murder cases, you know, it isn't always tied up cases, you know, it isn't always tied up cases, you know, it isn't always tied up with a bow. Things are not ever with a bow. Things are not ever with a bow. Things are not ever completely answered, especially, let's completely answered, especially, let's completely answered, especially, let's say, with the convicted or admitted say, with the convicted or admitted say, with the convicted or admitted killer killer killer has those details and doesn't share has those details and doesn't share has those details and doesn't share them. We may never know the whole truth. them. We may never know the whole truth. them. We may never know the whole truth. >> So true. In the criminal justice system >> So true. In the criminal justice system >> So true. In the criminal justice system in America that we all know, we watch, I in America that we all know, we watch, I in America that we all know, we watch, I don't know what shows are on now, CSI don't know what shows are on now, CSI don't know what shows are on now, CSI or, you know, crime scene shows. Um, we or, you know, crime scene shows. Um, we or, you know, crime scene shows. Um, we as a society think we know things about as a society think we know things about as a society think we know things about the criminal justice system. So, your the criminal justice system. So, your the criminal justice system. So, your viewers will say, "Well, I know this and viewers will say, "Well, I know this and viewers will say, "Well, I know this and I know that." And I would argue that's I know that." And I would argue that's I know that." And I would argue that's not always accurate. It's it's it's not always accurate. It's it's it's not always accurate. It's it's it's fiction, right? But we live in an age fiction, right? But we live in an age fiction, right? But we live in an age with broad exposure to true crime, with broad exposure to true crime, with broad exposure to true crime, wrongful conviction, missing persons, wrongful conviction, missing persons, wrongful conviction, missing persons, all of these things. So I wanted in this all of these things. So I wanted in this all of these things. So I wanted in this book to go back and look at the things book to go back and look at the things book to go back and look at the things that really actually uh make sense in that really actually uh make sense in that really actually uh make sense in the system. And the first is this. The the system. And the first is this. The the system. And the first is this. The police, law enforcement in general do an

police, law enforcement in general do an police, law enforcement in general do an investigation following a crime. A crime investigation following a crime. A crime investigation following a crime. A crime occurs, an investigation ensues. The occurs, an investigation ensues. The occurs, an investigation ensues. The investigation in most cases leads to investigation in most cases leads to investigation in most cases leads to suspects. That information is presented suspects. That information is presented suspects. That information is presented to the prosecuting attorney's office to the prosecuting attorney's office to the prosecuting attorney's office which may be local or maybe federal and which may be local or maybe federal and which may be local or maybe federal and they're slightly different. And from they're slightly different. And from they're slightly different. And from that they identify a person. They charge that they identify a person. They charge that they identify a person. They charge that or they go to a grand jury. They that or they go to a grand jury. They that or they go to a grand jury. They try to get an indictment. They charge try to get an indictment. They charge try to get an indictment. They charge that person. That person is perhaps that person. That person is perhaps that person. That person is perhaps arrested and then it proceeds to a arrested and then it proceeds to a arrested and then it proceeds to a criminal process in in most cases trial. criminal process in in most cases trial. criminal process in in most cases trial. But in many cases, in fact, in fact, in But in many cases, in fact, in fact, in But in many cases, in fact, in fact, in the vast majority of cases in America the vast majority of cases in America the vast majority of cases in America today, uh those cases are pled out. They today, uh those cases are pled out. They today, uh those cases are pled out. They do not go to trial for various reasons, do not go to trial for various reasons, do not go to trial for various reasons, for a lot of different reasons. And for a lot of different reasons. And for a lot of different reasons. And that's exactly what we have here. the that's exactly what we have here. the that's exactly what we have here. the Moscow Police Department, the Idaho Moscow Police Department, the Idaho Moscow Police Department, the Idaho State Police, Pennsylvania authorities, State Police, Pennsylvania authorities, State Police, Pennsylvania authorities, the FBI, they did the investigation. the FBI, they did the investigation. the FBI, they did the investigation. They handed it to the prosecuting They handed it to the prosecuting They handed it to the prosecuting attorney's office, in this case, Bill attorney's office, in this case, Bill attorney's office, in this case, Bill Thompson. He decided Brian Coberger was Thompson. He decided Brian Coberger was Thompson. He decided Brian Coberger was the suspect they were going to pursue. the suspect they were going to pursue. the suspect they were going to pursue. They uh they arrested him. They indicted They uh they arrested him. They indicted They uh they arrested him. They indicted him. They uh set a trial date and then him. They uh set a trial date and then him. They uh set a trial date and then just before trial, Coberger plead just before trial, Coberger plead just before trial, Coberger plead guilty. So that's how we got here. What guilty. So that's how we got here. What guilty. So that's how we got here. What do we miss in the process? we, the do we miss in the process? we, the do we miss in the process? we, the American public, missed the trial where American public, missed the trial where American public, missed the trial where all of this information would have been all of this information would have been all of this information would have been laid out. It would have been argued. It laid out. It would have been argued. It laid out. It would have been argued. It would have been adjudicated as we know would have been adjudicated as we know would have been adjudicated as we know by a jury, their peers, and we'd have by a jury, their peers, and we'd have by a jury, their peers, and we'd have these answers. Because the trial never these answers. Because the trial never these answers. Because the trial never occurred, no one, including the families occurred, no one, including the families occurred, no one, including the families of these uh victims, the community, the of these uh victims, the community, the of these uh victims, the community, the people that know and followed this case

people that know and followed this case people that know and followed this case never got the information that is so never got the information that is so never got the information that is so critically important. Did Brian Kberger critically important. Did Brian Kberger critically important. Did Brian Kberger have the means? Yes. Did he have the have the means? Yes. Did he have the have the means? Yes. Did he have the mechanism? Well, certainly. I knew mechanism? Well, certainly. I knew mechanism? Well, certainly. I knew anybody could have broken into the anybody could have broken into the anybody could have broken into the house. And did he have the motive? And house. And did he have the motive? And house. And did he have the motive? And no one has ever tied him to these crimes no one has ever tied him to these crimes no one has ever tied him to these crimes uh before, during, or after in a uh before, during, or after in a uh before, during, or after in a meaningful way that would establish uh meaningful way that would establish uh meaningful way that would establish uh why these four uh victims were why these four uh victims were why these four uh victims were tragically murdered on that. tragically murdered on that. tragically murdered on that. >> We don't know the why. We don't know. >> We don't know the why. We don't know. >> We don't know the why. We don't know. There's so much that we don't know. I There's so much that we don't know. I There's so much that we don't know. I think you know and I always defer to the think you know and I always defer to the think you know and I always defer to the victims, survivors and their families. victims, survivors and their families. victims, survivors and their families. Meaning, you know, everyone has a Meaning, you know, everyone has a Meaning, you know, everyone has a different level of comfort and desire or different level of comfort and desire or different level of comfort and desire or what they believe is justice. And so, what they believe is justice. And so, what they believe is justice. And so, you know, I some may be okay with the you know, I some may be okay with the you know, I some may be okay with the fact that there there wasn't a trial and fact that there there wasn't a trial and fact that there there wasn't a trial and and some may still be waiting for an and some may still be waiting for an and some may still be waiting for an answer to know when you've lost your answer to know when you've lost your answer to know when you've lost your child. You want to know why. It doesn't child. You want to know why. It doesn't child. You want to know why. It doesn't make it any better. It doesn't help the make it any better. It doesn't help the make it any better. It doesn't help the healing in any way. It's just tell me in healing in any way. It's just tell me in healing in any way. It's just tell me in your most demented way why. Why? And and your most demented way why. Why? And and your most demented way why. Why? And and we don't have that here. But I think we don't have that here. But I think we don't have that here. But I think before we go down this rabbit hole of before we go down this rabbit hole of before we go down this rabbit hole of all the things you want to talk about, all the things you want to talk about, all the things you want to talk about, for the few people who may not know for the few people who may not know for the few people who may not know anything about this case, let's just set anything about this case, let's just set anything about this case, let's just set the scene a little bit and just do the the scene a little bit and just do the the scene a little bit and just do the the basics. So then you can help us um the basics. So then you can help us um the basics. So then you can help us um point out the things that don't line up point out the things that don't line up point out the things that don't line up and don't make sense. So the murders

and don't make sense. So the murders and don't make sense. So the murders occurred on November 13th of 2022. These occurred on November 13th of 2022. These occurred on November 13th of 2022. These were all college students living in a were all college students living in a were all college students living in a home offampus on King Road. They home offampus on King Road. They home offampus on King Road. They attended the University of Idaho. Um, attended the University of Idaho. Um, attended the University of Idaho. Um, this is right around the holidays, right this is right around the holidays, right this is right around the holidays, right before Thanksgiving, right before before Thanksgiving, right before before Thanksgiving, right before Christmas. I mean, the the whole thing, Christmas. I mean, the the whole thing, Christmas. I mean, the the whole thing, I mean, and it happened within just, you I mean, and it happened within just, you I mean, and it happened within just, you know, minutes as the prosecutor has told know, minutes as the prosecutor has told know, minutes as the prosecutor has told us, which we're going to have to figure us, which we're going to have to figure us, which we're going to have to figure out how one person can so brutally out how one person can so brutally out how one person can so brutally murder four people when there was what, murder four people when there was what, murder four people when there was what, six people in the house, not including six people in the house, not including six people in the house, not including the killer. Two fourc victims and two the killer. Two fourc victims and two the killer. Two fourc victims and two survivors. Yes. survivors. Yes. survivors. Yes. >> Yeah. Yeah. So that's a lot of people in >> Yeah. Yeah. So that's a lot of people in >> Yeah. Yeah. So that's a lot of people in one house for for someone to get in and one house for for someone to get in and one house for for someone to get in and out. All right. So the victims here, out. All right. So the victims here, out. All right. So the victims here, Ethan Chapen, Xanna Kernodal, Madison Ethan Chapen, Xanna Kernodal, Madison Ethan Chapen, Xanna Kernodal, Madison Mogan, and Kaye Gonalves. They all had Mogan, and Kaye Gonalves. They all had Mogan, and Kaye Gonalves. They all had their dreams and their futures taken their dreams and their futures taken their dreams and their futures taken from them. Their families heartbroken. from them. Their families heartbroken. from them. Their families heartbroken. Their families who were advocating for Their families who were advocating for Their families who were advocating for justice through this whole thing, justice through this whole thing, justice through this whole thing, through their tears, through their through their tears, through their through their tears, through their heartbreak. Okay, heartbreak. Okay, heartbreak. Okay, tell us what the narrative that we have tell us what the narrative that we have tell us what the narrative that we have been told been told been told and where you think the holes are.

and where you think the holes are. and where you think the holes are. >> So, it comes down to this in my opinion. >> So, it comes down to this in my opinion. >> So, it comes down to this in my opinion. You've established the the basics. Even You've established the the basics. Even You've established the the basics. Even those are kind of odd because four those are kind of odd because four those are kind of odd because four victims in the house. Ethan did not live victims in the house. Ethan did not live victims in the house. Ethan did not live there. He was visiting. Kaylee Galves, I there. He was visiting. Kaylee Galves, I there. He was visiting. Kaylee Galves, I say, people even argue about my say, people even argue about my say, people even argue about my pronunciation. I just go with pronunciation. I just go with pronunciation. I just go with >> you know what? I've I went with the >> you know what? I've I went with the >> you know what? I've I went with the judge. I've gone back and forth. I've judge. I've gone back and forth. I've judge. I've gone back and forth. I've listened to so many. We have gone back listened to so many. We have gone back listened to so many. We have gone back and forth and I want to, you know, be and forth and I want to, you know, be and forth and I want to, you know, be right and I I I I know. right and I I I I know. right and I I I I know. >> Okay. I'm just saying I try to be as >> Okay. I'm just saying I try to be as >> Okay. I'm just saying I try to be as accurate as possible, but we out all accurate as possible, but we out all accurate as possible, but we out all these things. But just going back to the these things. But just going back to the these things. But just going back to the house, uh Bethany uh Bethy's last name, house, uh Bethany uh Bethy's last name, house, uh Bethany uh Bethy's last name, Bethany Funk, or Funka, her last name. I Bethany Funk, or Funka, her last name. I Bethany Funk, or Funka, her last name. I defer and apologize for defer and apologize for defer and apologize for misprononunciations, but nobody's told misprononunciations, but nobody's told misprononunciations, but nobody's told me specifically what they want the me specifically what they want the me specifically what they want the pronunciation to be. So, let's just say pronunciation to be. So, let's just say pronunciation to be. So, let's just say uh Kayla Gonzaleves, uh Kayla Gonzaleves, uh Kayla Gonzaleves, um she didn't live in the house at that um she didn't live in the house at that um she didn't live in the house at that time either. She had possessions there. time either. She had possessions there. time either. She had possessions there. She had a room that she rented there, She had a room that she rented there, She had a room that she rented there, but she had lived out of town and came but she had lived out of town and came but she had lived out of town and came back for the weekend. And um there are back for the weekend. And um there are back for the weekend. And um there are two survivors that were in the house at two survivors that were in the house at two survivors that were in the house at the time. And the house isn't even the time. And the house isn't even the time. And the house isn't even actually on King Road. It's actually actually on King Road. It's actually actually on King Road. It's actually Queen Road. But the way the whole thing Queen Road. But the way the whole thing Queen Road. But the way the whole thing is laid out, the address becomes is laid out, the address becomes is laid out, the address becomes confusing. I bring this up Anna only for confusing. I bring this up Anna only for confusing. I bring this up Anna only for one reason. It is so difficult to state one reason. It is so difficult to state one reason. It is so difficult to state any one thing in this entire case is any one thing in this entire case is any one thing in this entire case is fact because there are so many ways to fact because there are so many ways to fact because there are so many ways to go back over it. So I want to I want to go back over it. So I want to I want to go back over it. So I want to I want to uh qualify those things. But we're going uh qualify those things. But we're going uh qualify those things. But we're going to talk about what we've seen in the to talk about what we've seen in the to talk about what we've seen in the file, but there are so many questions.

file, but there are so many questions. file, but there are so many questions. Okay, questions. Let's go back to the Okay, questions. Let's go back to the Okay, questions. Let's go back to the change of plea hearing where Brian change of plea hearing where Brian change of plea hearing where Brian Cobberger stood in front of Judge Hiper Cobberger stood in front of Judge Hiper Cobberger stood in front of Judge Hiper and he said uh he plead guilty to five and he said uh he plead guilty to five and he said uh he plead guilty to five crimes, four murders and uh a crimes, four murders and uh a crimes, four murders and uh a trespassing charge that was added on and trespassing charge that was added on and trespassing charge that was added on and then did it again. There's no question then did it again. There's no question then did it again. There's no question about it. He plead guilty. That's it. about it. He plead guilty. That's it. about it. He plead guilty. That's it. But during that hearing, July 2nd, 2025, But during that hearing, July 2nd, 2025, But during that hearing, July 2nd, 2025, about a year ago, a little more than a about a year ago, a little more than a about a year ago, a little more than a year ago, uh, Bill Thompson stood in year ago, uh, Bill Thompson stood in year ago, uh, Bill Thompson stood in front of Judge Hitler and he recited the front of Judge Hitler and he recited the front of Judge Hitler and he recited the evidence that would have been presented evidence that would have been presented evidence that would have been presented at trial. So, anybody can go online and at trial. So, anybody can go online and at trial. So, anybody can go online and they can look at that. And I would argue they can look at that. And I would argue they can look at that. And I would argue that everybody would agree that the that everybody would agree that the that everybody would agree that the prosecution case comes down to three prosecution case comes down to three prosecution case comes down to three specific areas of evidence. The first is specific areas of evidence. The first is specific areas of evidence. The first is that a white car was seen on videotape that a white car was seen on videotape that a white car was seen on videotape near the house uh 11:22 King Road near the house uh 11:22 King Road near the house uh 11:22 King Road approximately the time of the of what approximately the time of the of what approximately the time of the of what has been established as the killings has been established as the killings has been established as the killings approximately 4:15 in the morning. So approximately 4:15 in the morning. So approximately 4:15 in the morning. So the white car is very important. The the white car is very important. The the white car is very important. The second is cell phone tower analysis done second is cell phone tower analysis done second is cell phone tower analysis done by the uh FBI cellular analysis support by the uh FBI cellular analysis support by the uh FBI cellular analysis support team CAST. Everybody talks about it now team CAST. Everybody talks about it now team CAST. Everybody talks about it now which looked at the technology. Most which looked at the technology. Most which looked at the technology. Most people know if a crime occurs and today people know if a crime occurs and today people know if a crime occurs and today uh in this age the law enforcement uh in this age the law enforcement uh in this age the law enforcement authorities will dump the cell phone authorities will dump the cell phone authorities will dump the cell phone tower information and they can find out tower information and they can find out tower information and they can find out who used a phone in that area at a at a who used a phone in that area at a at a who used a phone in that area at a at a time and if you have enough towers you time and if you have enough towers you time and if you have enough towers you can triangulate and you can limit that can triangulate and you can limit that can triangulate and you can limit that transmission to a very specific uh transmission to a very specific uh transmission to a very specific uh location. So many people think that's location. So many people think that's location. So many people think that's what happened here. I will argue that's what happened here. I will argue that's what happened here. I will argue that's not what happened here. So we have the

not what happened here. So we have the not what happened here. So we have the white car. We have cell tower white car. We have cell tower white car. We have cell tower information indicating that Brian information indicating that Brian information indicating that Brian Cobberger's phone was not found near the Cobberger's phone was not found near the Cobberger's phone was not found near the house at the time, but that it was house at the time, but that it was house at the time, but that it was turned off. It was turned off uh for turned off. It was turned off uh for turned off. It was turned off uh for about a 2-hour period roughly around the about a 2-hour period roughly around the about a 2-hour period roughly around the time of the crime. So, it shows that his time of the crime. So, it shows that his time of the crime. So, it shows that his phone was off, but it doesn't place him phone was off, but it doesn't place him phone was off, but it doesn't place him there. We'll come back to that. The there. We'll come back to that. The there. We'll come back to that. The third, the most important in my op third, the most important in my op third, the most important in my op opinion and the most widely cited opinion and the most widely cited opinion and the most widely cited evidence against Brian Coberger is that evidence against Brian Coberger is that evidence against Brian Coberger is that his DNA was found on the thumb snap of a his DNA was found on the thumb snap of a his DNA was found on the thumb snap of a KBAR knife sheath in the bed on the KBAR knife sheath in the bed on the KBAR knife sheath in the bed on the third floor uh partially lodged uh third floor uh partially lodged uh third floor uh partially lodged uh beneath the thigh of Mattie Mogan. And beneath the thigh of Mattie Mogan. And beneath the thigh of Mattie Mogan. And in the book, I look at all those things. in the book, I look at all those things. in the book, I look at all those things. I look at the white car. I look at the I look at the white car. I look at the I look at the white car. I look at the cell tower analysis. And I look at that cell tower analysis. And I look at that cell tower analysis. And I look at that knife sheath. And that's where I find knife sheath. And that's where I find knife sheath. And that's where I find the first problems that lead to many the first problems that lead to many the first problems that lead to many many significant questions about the uh many significant questions about the uh many significant questions about the uh the crime scene itself. the crime scene itself. the crime scene itself. >> Well, I I would make an argument where >> Well, I I would make an argument where >> Well, I I would make an argument where the um cell phone tower information, the um cell phone tower information, the um cell phone tower information, right, the data, the forensic data, and right, the data, the forensic data, and right, the data, the forensic data, and then the car, you know, we're always then the car, you know, we're always then the car, you know, we're always looking at um the evidence and then the looking at um the evidence and then the looking at um the evidence and then the circumstantial evidence. And like do you circumstantial evidence. And like do you circumstantial evidence. And like do you feel that I mean I have focused on the feel that I mean I have focused on the feel that I mean I have focused on the DNA. I'm like please explain to me how DNA. I'm like please explain to me how DNA. I'm like please explain to me how his DNA ended up in this house and more his DNA ended up in this house and more his DNA ended up in this house and more specifically so close specifically so close specifically so close to a murder victim. Like I see that as to a murder victim. Like I see that as to a murder victim. Like I see that as something you cannot dispute.

something you cannot dispute. something you cannot dispute. >> I 100% agree. That's not what happened. >> I 100% agree. That's not what happened. >> I 100% agree. That's not what happened. That is not what happened. and that That is not what happened. and that That is not what happened. and that let's talk about that if we can because let's talk about that if we can because let's talk about that if we can because we have a certain we have a limited we have a certain we have a limited we have a certain we have a limited period of time. Let me just say this period of time. Let me just say this period of time. Let me just say this based on what I've seen looking through based on what I've seen looking through based on what I've seen looking through a vast vast trunch of information. And a vast vast trunch of information. And a vast vast trunch of information. And just to be clear, law enforcement just to be clear, law enforcement just to be clear, law enforcement gathers information that goes in a file gathers information that goes in a file gathers information that goes in a file or a bank of files. That information or a bank of files. That information or a bank of files. That information based on a Supreme Court ruling from the based on a Supreme Court ruling from the based on a Supreme Court ruling from the 1960s, Brady versus Maryland, led to uh 1960s, Brady versus Maryland, led to uh 1960s, Brady versus Maryland, led to uh a Supreme Court decision that the a Supreme Court decision that the a Supreme Court decision that the prosecution has to give all its evidence prosecution has to give all its evidence prosecution has to give all its evidence to the defense so the defense can to the defense so the defense can to the defense so the defense can prepare for uh for trial. Okay, I think prepare for uh for trial. Okay, I think prepare for uh for trial. Okay, I think everybody many many people know that uh everybody many many people know that uh everybody many many people know that uh the Brady disclosure as it's called in the Brady disclosure as it's called in the Brady disclosure as it's called in this case was vast and I had access to this case was vast and I had access to this case was vast and I had access to uh what I believe to be the vast vast uh what I believe to be the vast vast uh what I believe to be the vast vast majority of that information. Um and we majority of that information. Um and we majority of that information. Um and we can talk about that. can talk about that. can talk about that. >> Chris, I do want to ask you one thing as >> Chris, I do want to ask you one thing as >> Chris, I do want to ask you one thing as we're going to go deep now in into the we're going to go deep now in into the we're going to go deep now in into the DNA. DNA. DNA. >> Is it at all possible, you know, that >> Is it at all possible, you know, that >> Is it at all possible, you know, that you don't have everything?

you don't have everything? you don't have everything? >> Oh, I I'm saying I'm stating now on the >> Oh, I I'm saying I'm stating now on the >> Oh, I I'm saying I'm stating now on the record that I I know I do not have record that I I know I do not have record that I I know I do not have everything. everything. everything. >> Okay. because that's really important >> Okay. because that's really important >> Okay. because that's really important because it's sometimes it's the things because it's sometimes it's the things because it's sometimes it's the things that we don't know that provide the that we don't know that provide the that we don't know that provide the bigger picture. I'm not disputing your bigger picture. I'm not disputing your bigger picture. I'm not disputing your approach or your theories. I simply want approach or your theories. I simply want approach or your theories. I simply want to make sure everyone understands what to make sure everyone understands what to make sure everyone understands what our the parameters of your universe are. our the parameters of your universe are. our the parameters of your universe are. >> Yes. And I state that in the book >> Yes. And I state that in the book >> Yes. And I state that in the book because that's very important. Uh, but I because that's very important. Uh, but I because that's very important. Uh, but I will say that if you talk to anybody in will say that if you talk to anybody in will say that if you talk to anybody in law enforcement or prosecutor's office law enforcement or prosecutor's office law enforcement or prosecutor's office or Ann Taylor in this case as a def lead or Ann Taylor in this case as a def lead or Ann Taylor in this case as a def lead defense attorney, making sense of all defense attorney, making sense of all defense attorney, making sense of all that information is incredibly difficult that information is incredibly difficult that information is incredibly difficult because you don't know what you don't because you don't know what you don't because you don't know what you don't know as the goes. And I'll use this as know as the goes. And I'll use this as know as the goes. And I'll use this as an example. Anne Taylor in defense of an example. Anne Taylor in defense of an example. Anne Taylor in defense of Anne Taylor, the the Brian Coberger's Anne Taylor, the the Brian Coberger's Anne Taylor, the the Brian Coberger's attorney, attorney, attorney, >> she was dumped with a staggering, and I >> she was dumped with a staggering, and I >> she was dumped with a staggering, and I mean I don't care what your definition mean I don't care what your definition mean I don't care what your definition of staggering is, staggering amount of of staggering is, staggering amount of of staggering is, staggering amount of information. I'll use this as an information. I'll use this as an information. I'll use this as an example. I going through these files example. I going through these files example. I going through these files over a period of time would go and I'd over a period of time would go and I'd over a period of time would go and I'd find a file and I go, "Well, where'd find a file and I go, "Well, where'd find a file and I go, "Well, where'd this come from?" or "Where'd this come?" this come from?" or "Where'd this come?" this come from?" or "Where'd this come?" And one, it was a rabbit hole, right? I And one, it was a rabbit hole, right? I And one, it was a rabbit hole, right? I f I clicked on one icon in the file. So, f I clicked on one icon in the file. So, f I clicked on one icon in the file. So, it was a little folder on your desktop it was a little folder on your desktop it was a little folder on your desktop and I go, "Well, what's this?" So I and I go, "Well, what's this?" So I and I go, "Well, what's this?" So I click on it and that one icon which click on it and that one icon which click on it and that one icon which might have been a one-page document was might have been a one-page document was might have been a one-page document was 8,452 8,452 8,452 pages of documents that for all intents pages of documents that for all intents pages of documents that for all intents and purposes to the defense or to and purposes to the defense or to and purposes to the defense or to anybody else, any writer, any anybody else, any writer, any anybody else, any writer, any journalist, any podcast or anybody else, journalist, any podcast or anybody else, journalist, any podcast or anybody else, you'd look and say, "Well, there's a, you'd look and say, "Well, there's a, you'd look and say, "Well, there's a, you know, that's a one-page document."

you know, that's a one-page document." you know, that's a one-page document." You click on it's 8,457 You click on it's 8,457 You click on it's 8,457 pages, whatever it was. And I look at it pages, whatever it was. And I look at it pages, whatever it was. And I look at it and say, "That is the nature of crimes and say, "That is the nature of crimes and say, "That is the nature of crimes like this." And you could look at major like this." And you could look at major like this." And you could look at major investigations and see the same thing. investigations and see the same thing. investigations and see the same thing. So it's not an excuse. I'm saying in So it's not an excuse. I'm saying in So it's not an excuse. I'm saying in this book I dealt specifically what with this book I dealt specifically what with this book I dealt specifically what with what Bill Thompson stated as the what Bill Thompson stated as the what Bill Thompson stated as the evidence against Brian Cobberger. And I evidence against Brian Cobberger. And I evidence against Brian Cobberger. And I will say I use as an example the police. will say I use as an example the police. will say I use as an example the police. We all know about the video surveillance We all know about the video surveillance We all know about the video surveillance tape from 1112, the house next door that tape from 1112, the house next door that tape from 1112, the house next door that identified the white car has this the identified the white car has this the identified the white car has this the audio recordings of the dogs barking and audio recordings of the dogs barking and audio recordings of the dogs barking and perhaps Zana is sc yelling or screaming perhaps Zana is sc yelling or screaming perhaps Zana is sc yelling or screaming a loud thud. We all know about certain a loud thud. We all know about certain a loud thud. We all know about certain elements of this, but but uh law elements of this, but but uh law elements of this, but but uh law enforcement uh uh dumped what I've seen enforcement uh uh dumped what I've seen enforcement uh uh dumped what I've seen as either 52 or 57 different video as either 52 or 57 different video as either 52 or 57 different video camera feeds that went into this file. camera feeds that went into this file. camera feeds that went into this file. So 50 50 of those 52 or 57 uh had So 50 50 of those 52 or 57 uh had So 50 50 of those 52 or 57 uh had nothing on them of value. So did I look nothing on them of value. So did I look nothing on them of value. So did I look at them? Yes, there was others perhaps.

at them? Yes, there was others perhaps. at them? Yes, there was others perhaps. But much of this information doesn't But much of this information doesn't But much of this information doesn't lead to anything. It's what the lead to anything. It's what the lead to anything. It's what the prosecution chose looking at the prosecution chose looking at the prosecution chose looking at the evidence to convict Brian Cobberger. So evidence to convict Brian Cobberger. So evidence to convict Brian Cobberger. So I'm qualified. I'm qualified. I'm qualified. >> So let's get back to the DNA because I >> So let's get back to the DNA because I >> So let's get back to the DNA because I think we're we're going down we're going think we're we're going down we're going think we're we're going down we're going down one of those rabbit holes in 8,000 down one of those rabbit holes in 8,000 down one of those rabbit holes in 8,000 pages. pages. pages. >> Yes. Well, yeah. And I and I'm just >> Yes. Well, yeah. And I and I'm just >> Yes. Well, yeah. And I and I'm just going to say if we look discreetly at going to say if we look discreetly at going to say if we look discreetly at the white car. Let's erase those things the white car. Let's erase those things the white car. Let's erase those things because in my opinion not worth talking because in my opinion not worth talking because in my opinion not worth talking about. The prosecution has never stated about. The prosecution has never stated about. The prosecution has never stated they put Brian Cobberg in any white car. they put Brian Cobberg in any white car. they put Brian Cobberg in any white car. He owned a white car. 2015 Hyundai He owned a white car. 2015 Hyundai He owned a white car. 2015 Hyundai Elantre. We know that and we know they Elantre. We know that and we know they Elantre. We know that and we know they have video because everybody watching have video because everybody watching have video because everybody watching this has seen it. That there's a white this has seen it. That there's a white this has seen it. That there's a white car. Many people in podcast world, the car. Many people in podcast world, the car. Many people in podcast world, the true crime world have pointed out some true crime world have pointed out some true crime world have pointed out some cars have a front license plate, some cars have a front license plate, some cars have a front license plate, some don't. Some have this tail light, some don't. Some have this tail light, some don't. Some have this tail light, some don't. There are many discrepancies and don't. There are many discrepancies and don't. There are many discrepancies and the video is uh difficult to to analyze the video is uh difficult to to analyze the video is uh difficult to to analyze at best. So nobody and Bill Thompson at best. So nobody and Bill Thompson at best. So nobody and Bill Thompson said this in his change of ply evidence said this in his change of ply evidence said this in his change of ply evidence recitation. Nobody's ever placed Brian recitation. Nobody's ever placed Brian recitation. Nobody's ever placed Brian Cobberg in in a in a white car at the Cobberg in in a in a white car at the Cobberg in in a in a white car at the scene. They offer evidence that suggests scene. They offer evidence that suggests scene. They offer evidence that suggests that. But that's not the foundation of that. But that's not the foundation of that. But that's not the foundation of the case. We can I hope we can stipulate the case. We can I hope we can stipulate the case. We can I hope we can stipulate that. Yeah. Well, I I again I think as I that. Yeah. Well, I I again I think as I that. Yeah. Well, I I again I think as I said that would have gone towards the said that would have gone towards the said that would have gone towards the circumstantial evidence where it appears circumstantial evidence where it appears circumstantial evidence where it appears but we don't that you know that to me at but we don't that you know that to me at but we don't that you know that to me at least from the outside is not where my least from the outside is not where my least from the outside is not where my interest is. My interest is how did this interest is. My interest is how did this interest is. My interest is how did this happen in approximately four minutes um happen in approximately four minutes um happen in approximately four minutes um with six people in the house. How did with six people in the house. How did with six people in the house. How did this happen? How is it possible that the

this happen? How is it possible that the this happen? How is it possible that the killer could walk by killer could walk by killer could walk by one of the residents of the home, right? one of the residents of the home, right? one of the residents of the home, right? And we could she could describe him down And we could she could describe him down And we could she could describe him down to bushy eyebrows except for the fact to bushy eyebrows except for the fact to bushy eyebrows except for the fact that he was covered in black. I mean, that he was covered in black. I mean, that he was covered in black. I mean, this is the part I think where we all this is the part I think where we all this is the part I think where we all have been fixated. And then the DNA on have been fixated. And then the DNA on have been fixated. And then the DNA on that cover. that cover. that cover. >> Okay, let's get to that because I'm just >> Okay, let's get to that because I'm just >> Okay, let's get to that because I'm just trying to lay the groundwork because trying to lay the groundwork because trying to lay the groundwork because we're talking an evidentiary. You know, we're talking an evidentiary. You know, we're talking an evidentiary. You know, the book is about presenting something the book is about presenting something the book is about presenting something to a grand jury as I would present it. to a grand jury as I would present it. to a grand jury as I would present it. It's all evidence-based. It's no It's all evidence-based. It's no It's all evidence-based. It's no theories. Um, so that's what I'm trying theories. Um, so that's what I'm trying theories. Um, so that's what I'm trying to do. So, let's rub because we have to do. So, let's rub because we have to do. So, let's rub because we have limited time the white car. Let's talk limited time the white car. Let's talk limited time the white car. Let's talk to the cell phone tower. The cell tower to the cell phone tower. The cell tower to the cell phone tower. The cell tower analysis shows two things. One, that his analysis shows two things. One, that his analysis shows two things. One, that his phone was off at the time of the crimes. phone was off at the time of the crimes. phone was off at the time of the crimes. Is it suspicious? Yes. What does it Is it suspicious? Yes. What does it Is it suspicious? Yes. What does it prove? It proves that his phone was off. prove? It proves that his phone was off. prove? It proves that his phone was off. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> So, suspicious, circumstantial, yes. Is >> So, suspicious, circumstantial, yes. Is >> So, suspicious, circumstantial, yes. Is it somebody put somebody on death row it somebody put somebody on death row it somebody put somebody on death row for a firing squad? In my opinion, for a firing squad? In my opinion, for a firing squad? In my opinion, likely not. They would not. likely not. They would not. likely not. They would not. >> But if you tack that on to DNA evidence, >> But if you tack that on to DNA evidence, >> But if you tack that on to DNA evidence, you strengthen your your DNA evidence.

you strengthen your your DNA evidence. you strengthen your your DNA evidence. >> It all it all strengthens. It's a >> It all it all strengthens. It's a >> It all it all strengthens. It's a three-prong attach. Is it viable? Is it three-prong attach. Is it viable? Is it three-prong attach. Is it viable? Is it valid? Of course, it is. Is it proof valid? Of course, it is. Is it proof valid? Of course, it is. Is it proof beyond a reasonable doubt in a murder beyond a reasonable doubt in a murder beyond a reasonable doubt in a murder conviction of four young human beings? conviction of four young human beings? conviction of four young human beings? Uh, I I would argue no. Which brings us Uh, I I would argue no. Which brings us Uh, I I would argue no. Which brings us to your question. What is the evidence to your question. What is the evidence to your question. What is the evidence that puts this away? For virtually that puts this away? For virtually that puts this away? For virtually anybody that knows this case, it is anybody that knows this case, it is anybody that knows this case, it is >> DNA. DNA evidence. >> DNA. DNA evidence. >> DNA. DNA evidence. >> Okay. So, let's get to the DNA and >> Okay. So, let's get to the DNA and >> Okay. So, let's get to the DNA and evidence. So, uh I am not a DNA expert, evidence. So, uh I am not a DNA expert, evidence. So, uh I am not a DNA expert, but I was uh intimately involved in but I was uh intimately involved in but I was uh intimately involved in growing a DNA company uh that uh I growing a DNA company uh that uh I growing a DNA company uh that uh I worked with up leading up to CO and they worked with up leading up to CO and they worked with up leading up to CO and they did they had a machine that would did they had a machine that would did they had a machine that would identify it was certified by the FBI as identify it was certified by the FBI as identify it was certified by the FBI as basically a laboratory in a box. It's basically a laboratory in a box. It's basically a laboratory in a box. It's about the size of a microwave. You put about the size of a microwave. You put about the size of a microwave. You put it on a table and it it it identifies it on a table and it it it identifies it on a table and it it it identifies a it matches a suspect with a DNA a it matches a suspect with a DNA a it matches a suspect with a DNA profile taken at the scene. You could profile taken at the scene. You could profile taken at the scene. You could roll up to a murder scene. You take a roll up to a murder scene. You take a roll up to a murder scene. You take a blood sample. You take a suspect sample, blood sample. You take a suspect sample, blood sample. You take a suspect sample, a buckle swab. You put the two of them a buckle swab. You put the two of them a buckle swab. You put the two of them in this machine and it will tell you it in this machine and it will tell you it in this machine and it will tell you it is this person. And that is a short is this person. And that is a short is this person. And that is a short tandem repeat or STR match. And that's tandem repeat or STR match. And that's tandem repeat or STR match. And that's what you want to see on a on a crime what you want to see on a on a crime what you want to see on a on a crime show on television. This is the guy.

show on television. This is the guy. show on television. This is the guy. Okay, that's one type of DNA. And this Okay, that's one type of DNA. And this Okay, that's one type of DNA. And this is going to become very important. The is going to become very important. The is going to become very important. The other type of DNA is ancestry.com other type of DNA is ancestry.com other type of DNA is ancestry.com and23 things of that nature which is and23 things of that nature which is and23 things of that nature which is investigative or forensic genetic investigative or forensic genetic investigative or forensic genetic genealogy. Well, they they say being the genealogy. Well, they they say being the genealogy. Well, they they say being the laboratory will say that you Anna uh laboratory will say that you Anna uh laboratory will say that you Anna uh come from certain percentages of come from certain percentages of come from certain percentages of populations around the world. You may be populations around the world. You may be populations around the world. You may be uh from different ethnic groups, from uh from different ethnic groups, from uh from different ethnic groups, from different nationalities, from different different nationalities, from different different nationalities, from different parts of the world. Everybody knows parts of the world. Everybody knows parts of the world. Everybody knows that, right? Many many many of your that, right? Many many many of your that, right? Many many many of your viewers have done that. So two different viewers have done that. So two different viewers have done that. So two different things. One will match you to a large things. One will match you to a large things. One will match you to a large but similar group of people, maybe but similar group of people, maybe but similar group of people, maybe familial, and then the other will match familial, and then the other will match familial, and then the other will match a sample to an individual. And that's a sample to an individual. And that's a sample to an individual. And that's what you want. The the modern version of what you want. The the modern version of what you want. The the modern version of fingerprints. There are two different fingerprints. There are two different fingerprints. There are two different things, and that's going to be things, and that's going to be things, and that's going to be critically important. So, now let's go critically important. So, now let's go critically important. So, now let's go back to the DNA in this case. The only back to the DNA in this case. The only back to the DNA in this case. The only DNA that has been uh used in the DNA that has been uh used in the DNA that has been uh used in the prosecution of Brian Cobberger to date prosecution of Brian Cobberger to date prosecution of Brian Cobberger to date is DNA, a DNA sample found on a snap of is DNA, a DNA sample found on a snap of is DNA, a DNA sample found on a snap of a KBAR knife sheath that was found maybe a KBAR knife sheath that was found maybe a KBAR knife sheath that was found maybe in the bed. Okay. So then we're going in the bed. Okay. So then we're going in the bed. Okay. So then we're going back in time and saying as back in time and saying as back in time and saying as investigators, where did we find the investigators, where did we find the investigators, where did we find the DNA? Where was that object? And what did DNA? Where was that object? And what did DNA? Where was that object? And what did that object have to do with the crimes?

that object have to do with the crimes? that object have to do with the crimes? We all know now that the that the KBAR We all know now that the that the KBAR We all know now that the that the KBAR knife sheath, not the knife, but the knife sheath, not the knife, but the knife sheath, not the knife, but the sheath was found in the third floor sheath was found in the third floor sheath was found in the third floor bedroom that was occupied by Mattie bedroom that was occupied by Mattie bedroom that was occupied by Mattie Mogan, but at the time was also uh Kayla Mogan, but at the time was also uh Kayla Mogan, but at the time was also uh Kayla and Culver was in the bed with her. The and Culver was in the bed with her. The and Culver was in the bed with her. The knife sheath was found in that room. knife sheath was found in that room. knife sheath was found in that room. When it was analyzed, When it was analyzed, When it was analyzed, law enforcement found uh and and various law enforcement found uh and and various law enforcement found uh and and various laboratories processed and we got to laboratories processed and we got to laboratories processed and we got to talk about that. um what is described as talk about that. um what is described as talk about that. um what is described as a very few human cells. It's a very few human cells. It's a very few human cells. It's microscopic. There's no blood stain. microscopic. There's no blood stain. microscopic. There's no blood stain. There's no stain on the knife at all There's no stain on the knife at all There's no stain on the knife at all where they found this. And that's where where they found this. And that's where where they found this. And that's where the DNA came from. Okay. So, we go back the DNA came from. Okay. So, we go back the DNA came from. Okay. So, we go back and look as investigators and as and look as investigators and as and look as investigators and as prosecutors at the knife sheath itself. prosecutors at the knife sheath itself. prosecutors at the knife sheath itself. The first thing that stands out to me The first thing that stands out to me The first thing that stands out to me looking at this evidence is a report. looking at this evidence is a report. looking at this evidence is a report. Well, let's back up. The Moscow Police Well, let's back up. The Moscow Police Well, let's back up. The Moscow Police Department responded to the crime scene. Department responded to the crime scene. Department responded to the crime scene. officers Warner and uh and Nunes and officers Warner and uh and Nunes and officers Warner and uh and Nunes and it's all on body camera. It's been it's all on body camera. It's been it's all on body camera. It's been redacted, but you can watch the body redacted, but you can watch the body redacted, but you can watch the body camera footage. And they go upstairs uh camera footage. And they go upstairs uh camera footage. And they go upstairs uh and not on camera, but eventually find and not on camera, but eventually find and not on camera, but eventually find the knife sheath in that bedroom. A the the knife sheath in that bedroom. A the the knife sheath in that bedroom. A the state they filed an affidavit for a state they filed an affidavit for a state they filed an affidavit for a search warrant. The search warrant was search warrant. The search warrant was search warrant. The search warrant was given, but the Idaho State uh police given, but the Idaho State uh police given, but the Idaho State uh police crime lab evidence response team came in crime lab evidence response team came in crime lab evidence response team came in because they had greater resources. It because they had greater resources. It because they had greater resources. It makes sense. Small town Moscow.

makes sense. Small town Moscow. makes sense. Small town Moscow. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. >> Okay. All makes sense, right? They came >> Okay. All makes sense, right? They came >> Okay. All makes sense, right? They came in um and this uh examiner from the in um and this uh examiner from the in um and this uh examiner from the detective from the Idaho State Police detective from the Idaho State Police detective from the Idaho State Police came in and he filled out a handwritten came in and he filled out a handwritten came in and he filled out a handwritten report. So, you're an investigator. You report. So, you're an investigator. You report. So, you're an investigator. You go to a crime scene. You've got you do go to a crime scene. You've got you do go to a crime scene. You've got you do them all the time. It's a blank form them all the time. It's a blank form them all the time. It's a blank form that's filled out with boxes. It looks that's filled out with boxes. It looks that's filled out with boxes. It looks like a an Excel spreadsheet. And you and like a an Excel spreadsheet. And you and like a an Excel spreadsheet. And you and it says item number one, uh blank uh you it says item number one, uh blank uh you it says item number one, uh blank uh you know, a a shoe found on the floor. the know, a a shoe found on the floor. the know, a a shoe found on the floor. the third floor, blah blah. They describe it third floor, blah blah. They describe it third floor, blah blah. They describe it and it's it's put in a bag and it's and it's it's put in a bag and it's and it's it's put in a bag and it's taken as evidence, right? We've all seen taken as evidence, right? We've all seen taken as evidence, right? We've all seen this on TV. Item number 14 on that this on TV. Item number 14 on that this on TV. Item number 14 on that sheath in a handwritten form sheath in a handwritten form sheath in a handwritten form contemporaneous to the seizure of that contemporaneous to the seizure of that contemporaneous to the seizure of that evidence by this state police detective evidence by this state police detective evidence by this state police detective says the knife sheath was found on the says the knife sheath was found on the says the knife sheath was found on the third floor beside the bed. Okay. the third floor beside the bed. Okay. the third floor beside the bed. Okay. the photographs and everything that we know photographs and everything that we know photographs and everything that we know about the knife sheath because we know about the knife sheath because we know about the knife sheath because we know this case so well says that the knife this case so well says that the knife this case so well says that the knife sheath was found in the bed. So the sheath was found in the bed. So the sheath was found in the bed. So the handwritten report by the person that handwritten report by the person that handwritten report by the person that sees the evidence says it was on the sees the evidence says it was on the sees the evidence says it was on the floor. Is that important? Yes, it's floor. Is that important? Yes, it's floor. Is that important? Yes, it's important because you're establishing important because you're establishing important because you're establishing the line from when the crimes occurred the line from when the crimes occurred the line from when the crimes occurred to where the DNA uh gets represented in to where the DNA uh gets represented in to where the DNA uh gets represented in court. So is it a huge thing? Maybe not.

court. So is it a huge thing? Maybe not. court. So is it a huge thing? Maybe not. Is it an important thing? Yes. Why? Is it an important thing? Yes. Why? Is it an important thing? Yes. Why? Because the question then becomes, how Because the question then becomes, how Because the question then becomes, how did the knife sheath get placed in that did the knife sheath get placed in that did the knife sheath get placed in that bed? How did it end up under uh Mattie bed? How did it end up under uh Mattie bed? How did it end up under uh Mattie Mogan's thigh? How did it become Mogan's thigh? How did it become Mogan's thigh? How did it become partially obscured by blankets? And how partially obscured by blankets? And how partially obscured by blankets? And how did it not have blood stains that were did it not have blood stains that were did it not have blood stains that were found beneath it? And and much of this found beneath it? And and much of this found beneath it? And and much of this comes from a forensic comes from a forensic comes from a forensic uh expert, an analyst named uh Brent uh expert, an analyst named uh Brent uh expert, an analyst named uh Brent Turvy, who cooperated with this book. Uh Turvy, who cooperated with this book. Uh Turvy, who cooperated with this book. Uh he's one of the few people I talked to he's one of the few people I talked to he's one of the few people I talked to that allowed his name to be used. Uh that allowed his name to be used. Uh that allowed his name to be used. Uh he's striden. He's one of the most he's striden. He's one of the most he's striden. He's one of the most ethical people I've ever met in my life ethical people I've ever met in my life ethical people I've ever met in my life and one of the most experienced. He's and one of the most experienced. He's and one of the most experienced. He's testified in 75 murder investigations. testified in 75 murder investigations. testified in 75 murder investigations. He's written 20 books. He's a widely uh He's written 20 books. He's a widely uh He's written 20 books. He's a widely uh renowned criminologist. And he decided renowned criminologist. And he decided renowned criminologist. And he decided to go on record and and talk about that to go on record and and talk about that to go on record and and talk about that using his name. And I thought that was using his name. And I thought that was using his name. And I thought that was quite courageous on his part. Um but he quite courageous on his part. Um but he quite courageous on his part. Um but he said that he was hired to come in and said that he was hired to come in and said that he was hired to come in and the first and only thing he was uh asked the first and only thing he was uh asked the first and only thing he was uh asked to look at in this case was that knife to look at in this case was that knife to look at in this case was that knife sheath. He didn't even know what the sheath. He didn't even know what the sheath. He didn't even know what the case was. They just showed him the case was. They just showed him the case was. They just showed him the evidence, the defense, and he commented evidence, the defense, and he commented evidence, the defense, and he commented from there. So, the knife sheath from there. So, the knife sheath from there. So, the knife sheath placement in the bed relative to the placement in the bed relative to the placement in the bed relative to the floor, the documents that say various floor, the documents that say various floor, the documents that say various things, that knife sheath going into a things, that knife sheath going into a things, that knife sheath going into a bag and then going to the crime lead uh bag and then going to the crime lead uh bag and then going to the crime lead uh crime lab presents other evidence crime lab presents other evidence crime lab presents other evidence because when evidence typically is because when evidence typically is because when evidence typically is presented uh is bagged, there's a chain presented uh is bagged, there's a chain presented uh is bagged, there's a chain of custody that shows it went from point of custody that shows it went from point of custody that shows it went from point A to point B to point C. So the defense A to point B to point C. So the defense A to point B to point C. So the defense can go back and they can look at the

can go back and they can look at the can go back and they can look at the veracity of that evidence itself. In veracity of that evidence itself. In veracity of that evidence itself. In this case, it's critically important this case, it's critically important this case, it's critically important because you have microscopic samples of because you have microscopic samples of because you have microscopic samples of DNA, human cells found on a knife sheath DNA, human cells found on a knife sheath DNA, human cells found on a knife sheath in a specific location that went not in a specific location that went not in a specific location that went not just to the Idaho State Crime Lab. just to the Idaho State Crime Lab. just to the Idaho State Crime Lab. Eventually parts of that went to an Eventually parts of that went to an Eventually parts of that went to an author, the Oram laboratory in Texas, author, the Oram laboratory in Texas, author, the Oram laboratory in Texas, we'll get to and then to the FBI. So a we'll get to and then to the FBI. So a we'll get to and then to the FBI. So a defense person would say, "Wait a defense person would say, "Wait a defense person would say, "Wait a minute. Anybody could have touched this. minute. Anybody could have touched this. minute. Anybody could have touched this. It could have been contaminated. It's It could have been contaminated. It's It could have been contaminated. It's part of the criminal justice system. In part of the criminal justice system. In part of the criminal justice system. In this case, the first problem identified this case, the first problem identified this case, the first problem identified was the knife sheath was recorded being was the knife sheath was recorded being was the knife sheath was recorded being found on the floor, but it was found on the floor, but it was found on the floor, but it was documented as being in the bed. When it documented as being in the bed. When it documented as being in the bed. When it was placed in the bag, it did not have a was placed in the bag, it did not have a was placed in the bag, it did not have a chain of custody that you typically see, chain of custody that you typically see, chain of custody that you typically see, but at some point much later ended up but at some point much later ended up but at some point much later ended up with a chain of custody form on it. And with a chain of custody form on it. And with a chain of custody form on it. And it appears to most people if you look at it appears to most people if you look at it appears to most people if you look at the photographs, and I think the the photographs, and I think the the photographs, and I think the photographs are out there now, that the photographs are out there now, that the photographs are out there now, that the all the people on the chain of custody all the people on the chain of custody all the people on the chain of custody were filled out in the same pen. Is that were filled out in the same pen. Is that were filled out in the same pen. Is that an issue? Yes, because it further an issue? Yes, because it further an issue? Yes, because it further uh offers doubt. Remember, it's proof uh offers doubt. Remember, it's proof uh offers doubt. Remember, it's proof beyond a reasonable doubt in a beyond a reasonable doubt in a beyond a reasonable doubt in a prosecution that the pro that the prosecution that the pro that the prosecution that the pro that the defense could have relied upon. And that defense could have relied upon. And that defense could have relied upon. And that did not happen. That never happened. It did not happen. That never happened. It did not happen. That never happened. It never came up in trial. Um there was no never came up in trial. Um there was no never came up in trial. Um there was no >> Okay. So, and I know we're going very >> Okay. So, and I know we're going very >> Okay. So, and I know we're going very deep into this, but the defense saw deep into this, but the defense saw deep into this, but the defense saw that, right? The defense that, right? The defense that, right? The defense >> Well, okay. Great question. the defense >> Well, okay. Great question. the defense >> Well, okay. Great question. the defense not know because that goes into your not know because that goes into your not know because that goes into your decision of like because you analyzing decision of like because you analyzing decision of like because you analyzing something and a jury making a decision

something and a jury making a decision something and a jury making a decision on what likely happened. There's a on what likely happened. There's a on what likely happened. There's a little bit of a gap in there. Do you little bit of a gap in there. Do you little bit of a gap in there. Do you see? see? see? >> There's a big gap in there. Very much >> There's a big gap in there. Very much >> There's a big gap in there. Very much so. And I talk about this in great so. And I talk about this in great so. And I talk about this in great length of the book. You know, I'm very length of the book. You know, I'm very length of the book. You know, I'm very analytical and I'll say this. analytical and I'll say this. analytical and I'll say this. >> Yes. The >> Yes. The >> Yes. The >> question everybody asks is, well, if >> question everybody asks is, well, if >> question everybody asks is, well, if that was a problem, An Taylor would have that was a problem, An Taylor would have that was a problem, An Taylor would have brought it up. The answer is that's not brought it up. The answer is that's not brought it up. The answer is that's not correct. Based on Dr. Turvy in his correct. Based on Dr. Turvy in his correct. Based on Dr. Turvy in his interview that I talk about in great interview that I talk about in great interview that I talk about in great detail in the book said specifically detail in the book said specifically detail in the book said specifically that he did not find out about these that he did not find out about these that he did not find out about these issues until just before uh the the plea issues until just before uh the the plea issues until just before uh the the plea agreement. So Annne Taylor based on the agreement. So Annne Taylor based on the agreement. So Annne Taylor based on the information I've been given by people information I've been given by people information I've been given by people who found it specifically Dr. Turvy um who found it specifically Dr. Turvy um who found it specifically Dr. Turvy um who has spoken about this now in in who has spoken about this now in in who has spoken about this now in in other on his own. He's talked about this other on his own. He's talked about this other on his own. He's talked about this on his own um have stated that she did on his own um have stated that she did on his own um have stated that she did not know this until just before the not know this until just before the not know this until just before the decision was made to plead this case for decision was made to plead this case for decision was made to plead this case for Brian Cobber to plead his thing. So Brian Cobber to plead his thing. So Brian Cobber to plead his thing. So people would say well if these were people would say well if these were people would say well if these were problems she would have brought it up. problems she would have brought it up. problems she would have brought it up. That is in fact not correct. She did not That is in fact not correct. She did not That is in fact not correct. She did not uh know about these uh issues until just uh know about these uh issues until just uh know about these uh issues until just before and at that point in Ann Taylor's before and at that point in Ann Taylor's before and at that point in Ann Taylor's defense at that point she had presented defense at that point she had presented defense at that point she had presented many many many uh through Frank's many many many uh through Frank's many many many uh through Frank's hearings and through various motions and hearings and through various motions and hearings and through various motions and petitions to the judge. Um all these petitions to the judge. Um all these petitions to the judge. Um all these different problems and had been ruled different problems and had been ruled different problems and had been ruled against in every circumstance in every against in every circumstance in every against in every circumstance in every single one. I can't remember the number single one. I can't remember the number single one. I can't remember the number now but she never won a single one. Um now but she never won a single one. Um now but she never won a single one. Um at that point I don't know if she would at that point I don't know if she would at that point I don't know if she would have pressed this or not. I don't know have pressed this or not. I don't know have pressed this or not. I don't know but the answer to that question is no.

but the answer to that question is no. but the answer to that question is no. She likely did not know or she did it, She likely did not know or she did it, She likely did not know or she did it, you know, it was too late. So that's the you know, it was too late. So that's the you know, it was too late. So that's the first thing. first thing. first thing. >> And then what we don't know, and I I say >> And then what we don't know, and I I say >> And then what we don't know, and I I say this with all due respect to your this with all due respect to your this with all due respect to your analysis and investigation, is what we analysis and investigation, is what we analysis and investigation, is what we don't know and we can never know is how don't know and we can never know is how don't know and we can never know is how the jury would have the jury would have the jury would have determined the value of this evidence. determined the value of this evidence. determined the value of this evidence. Correct. Correct. Correct. >> 100% correct. And I'll say this, when >> 100% correct. And I'll say this, when >> 100% correct. And I'll say this, when you go through the FBI training academy, you go through the FBI training academy, you go through the FBI training academy, they teach you rules of criminal of uh they teach you rules of criminal of uh they teach you rules of criminal of uh of processing processing evidence, rules of processing processing evidence, rules of processing processing evidence, rules of criminal procedure, all of those of criminal procedure, all of those of criminal procedure, all of those things. It's part of every law things. It's part of every law things. It's part of every law enforcement academy. And I've seen enforcement academy. And I've seen enforcement academy. And I've seen people come out and say, "Well, chain of people come out and say, "Well, chain of people come out and say, "Well, chain of custody doesn't matter, whatever." And I custody doesn't matter, whatever." And I custody doesn't matter, whatever." And I think to myself, are you out of your think to myself, are you out of your think to myself, are you out of your mind? How do you take a piece of mind? How do you take a piece of mind? How do you take a piece of evidence? evidence? evidence? >> Well, I didn't say that. I'm >> Well, I didn't say that. I'm >> Well, I didn't say that. I'm >> No, not you. I'm talking about other >> No, not you. I'm talking about other >> No, not you. I'm talking about other people. They've said, "Well, who cares people. They've said, "Well, who cares people. They've said, "Well, who cares about the chain of custody?" And I will about the chain of custody?" And I will about the chain of custody?" And I will say this. If you're on trial for murder, say this. If you're on trial for murder, say this. If you're on trial for murder, >> you care. >> you care. >> you care. >> You care where the evidence went and how >> You care where the evidence went and how >> You care where the evidence went and how it got there and where, if anywhere, it it got there and where, if anywhere, it it got there and where, if anywhere, it could have been tampered with. I mean, could have been tampered with. I mean, could have been tampered with. I mean, my god, just think of of all the cases my god, just think of of all the cases my god, just think of of all the cases that we know about where evidence has that we know about where evidence has that we know about where evidence has been mishandled.

been mishandled. been mishandled. >> So, let me I I want to get to the heart >> So, let me I I want to get to the heart >> So, let me I I want to get to the heart of this one issue because I know there of this one issue because I know there of this one issue because I know there are several things we I also want to are several things we I also want to are several things we I also want to talk about the timeline and whether this talk about the timeline and whether this talk about the timeline and whether this really could have happened the way it really could have happened the way it really could have happened the way it did and there were a few other things. did and there were a few other things. did and there were a few other things. So on this issue, okay, are you So on this issue, okay, are you So on this issue, okay, are you suggesting or do are you suspicious is suggesting or do are you suspicious is suggesting or do are you suspicious is what I should say. Are you suspicious what I should say. Are you suspicious what I should say. Are you suspicious that this DNA was not original to the that this DNA was not original to the that this DNA was not original to the crime scene? No, I'm not saying that at crime scene? No, I'm not saying that at crime scene? No, I'm not saying that at all. Uh late in the in the investigation all. Uh late in the in the investigation all. Uh late in the in the investigation and the defense putting everything and the defense putting everything and the defense putting everything together, the the uh defense attorney together, the the uh defense attorney together, the the uh defense attorney Anne Taylor found out that she believed Anne Taylor found out that she believed Anne Taylor found out that she believed there were problems with the DNA on a there were problems with the DNA on a there were problems with the DNA on a knife sheet. Okay. So, she requested knife sheet. Okay. So, she requested knife sheet. Okay. So, she requested what's called a Frank's hearing. A what's called a Frank's hearing. A what's called a Frank's hearing. A Frank's hearing is questioning evidence Frank's hearing is questioning evidence Frank's hearing is questioning evidence basically before Judge Hippler. The basically before Judge Hippler. The basically before Judge Hippler. The defense attorney, Anne Taylor, brings defense attorney, Anne Taylor, brings defense attorney, Anne Taylor, brings the state's lead, Moscow Police the state's lead, Moscow Police the state's lead, Moscow Police Department, the state being the Department, the state being the Department, the state being the prosecuting attorney's office, lead prosecuting attorney's office, lead prosecuting attorney's office, lead witness, lead investigator, lead witness, lead investigator, lead witness, lead investigator, lead investigator in this case, Detective investigator in this case, Detective investigator in this case, Detective Brett Payne, and she said uh um asked Brett Payne, and she said uh um asked Brett Payne, and she said uh um asked him questions about it. And she says, him questions about it. And she says, him questions about it. And she says, quote, and I'm quote from the book now, quote, and I'm quote from the book now, quote, and I'm quote from the book now, is it your understanding that the FBI's is it your understanding that the FBI's is it your understanding that the FBI's work said that it was Brian Cobberger's work said that it was Brian Cobberger's work said that it was Brian Cobberger's DNA on the knife sheath? That's the DNA on the knife sheath? That's the DNA on the knife sheath? That's the question. Was Brian Kobberger's DNA on question. Was Brian Kobberger's DNA on question. Was Brian Kobberger's DNA on the knife sheath? Bri Brian uh Brett the knife sheath? Bri Brian uh Brett the knife sheath? Bri Brian uh Brett Payne answered, quote, "That is not my Payne answered, quote, "That is not my Payne answered, quote, "That is not my understanding." End quote. Next understanding." End quote. Next understanding." End quote. Next question. What is your understanding?

question. What is your understanding? question. What is your understanding? Detective Payne's answer in this Frank's Detective Payne's answer in this Frank's Detective Payne's answer in this Frank's hearing before Judge Hitler is quote, hearing before Judge Hitler is quote, hearing before Judge Hitler is quote, "My understanding is that "My understanding is that "My understanding is that [clears throat] the FBI concluded that [clears throat] the FBI concluded that [clears throat] the FBI concluded that Brian Coberger was a possible source of Brian Coberger was a possible source of Brian Coberger was a possible source of DNA that we should look into. They did DNA that we should look into. They did DNA that we should look into. They did not, to my knowledge, at any point say not, to my knowledge, at any point say not, to my knowledge, at any point say Brian Coberger's DNA is on the knife Brian Coberger's DNA is on the knife Brian Coberger's DNA is on the knife sheath. That was never conveyed to me. sheath. That was never conveyed to me. sheath. That was never conveyed to me. End quote. End quote. End quote. >> But isn't it possible that it was >> But isn't it possible that it was >> But isn't it possible that it was someone else or a lab, not the FBI? That someone else or a lab, not the FBI? That someone else or a lab, not the FBI? That that is literally a true statement, but that is literally a true statement, but that is literally a true statement, but very narrow. very narrow. very narrow. >> Well, it is narrow. But the question is, >> Well, it is narrow. But the question is, >> Well, it is narrow. But the question is, did the FBI ever tell you Brian did the FBI ever tell you Brian did the FBI ever tell you Brian Cobberger's DNA was on the knife sheath? Cobberger's DNA was on the knife sheath? Cobberger's DNA was on the knife sheath? And he said no. Now, you ask all of your And he said no. Now, you ask all of your And he said no. Now, you ask all of your viewers, was Brian Kobberger's DNA found viewers, was Brian Kobberger's DNA found viewers, was Brian Kobberger's DNA found on the knife sheath? And I believe the on the knife sheath? And I believe the on the knife sheath? And I believe the vast majority would say yes, it was. vast majority would say yes, it was. vast majority would say yes, it was. This is the lead investigator in a court This is the lead investigator in a court This is the lead investigator in a court proceeding asked those questions and he proceeding asked those questions and he proceeding asked those questions and he said no, it was not. The FBI never told said no, it was not. The FBI never told said no, it was not. The FBI never told him. He said, quote unquote, him. He said, quote unquote, him. He said, quote unquote, uh, uh, uh, >> but just because the FBI didn't tell him >> but just because the FBI didn't tell him >> but just because the FBI didn't tell him doesn't mean that it's not there or that doesn't mean that it's not there or that doesn't mean that it's not there or that some other agency identified it or lab.

some other agency identified it or lab. some other agency identified it or lab. >> Very well put. But you're building a >> Very well put. But you're building a >> Very well put. But you're building a death penalty conviction based on DNA death penalty conviction based on DNA death penalty conviction based on DNA and you're the lead investigator in the and you're the lead investigator in the and you're the lead investigator in the case. And this is early on and he's case. And this is early on and he's case. And this is early on and he's saying nobody ever said that. He was in saying nobody ever said that. He was in saying nobody ever said that. He was in the calls when they talked to the FBI. the calls when they talked to the FBI. the calls when they talked to the FBI. Let's back up a second. How did we get Let's back up a second. How did we get Let's back up a second. How did we get to the FBI to begin with? The FBI was to the FBI to begin with? The FBI was to the FBI to begin with? The FBI was brought in after the Idaho State. So brought in after the Idaho State. So brought in after the Idaho State. So Moscow police department has certain Moscow police department has certain Moscow police department has certain resources. The state of Idaho had more resources. The state of Idaho had more resources. The state of Idaho had more resources including a lab and forensic resources including a lab and forensic resources including a lab and forensic analysis. Uh and then they went to the analysis. Uh and then they went to the analysis. Uh and then they went to the FBI which has maybe the world's greatest FBI which has maybe the world's greatest FBI which has maybe the world's greatest resource in terms of their laboratory. resource in terms of their laboratory. resource in terms of their laboratory. We we agree on that, right? We we agree on that, right? We we agree on that, right? >> What happened in this process is the >> What happened in this process is the >> What happened in this process is the knife sheath went to the Idaho State knife sheath went to the Idaho State knife sheath went to the Idaho State Police Lab which which developed a DNA Police Lab which which developed a DNA Police Lab which which developed a DNA sample that was sent to a private sample that was sent to a private sample that was sent to a private laboratory named Aram Labs. laboratory named Aram Labs. laboratory named Aram Labs. >> Yes, we had them on the podcast many >> Yes, we had them on the podcast many >> Yes, we had them on the podcast many times. times. times. >> Okay, great. Fantastic. So what is in >> Okay, great. Fantastic. So what is in >> Okay, great. Fantastic. So what is in this book is Annne Taylor's questions of this book is Annne Taylor's questions of this book is Annne Taylor's questions of people involved in that investigation people involved in that investigation people involved in that investigation and in the in the Frank's hearing and in the in the Frank's hearing and in the in the Frank's hearing transcript which I placed in the book transcript which I placed in the book transcript which I placed in the book has suggest things that are not what has suggest things that are not what has suggest things that are not what say she asked where are the records and say she asked where are the records and say she asked where are the records and the police say we don't have any records the police say we don't have any records the police say we don't have any records and said well what did you find on the and said well what did you find on the and said well what did you find on the knife sheath uh the sample what did you knife sheath uh the sample what did you knife sheath uh the sample what did you find from the sample and they said uh it find from the sample and they said uh it find from the sample and they said uh it was tied to one of four brothers and she was tied to one of four brothers and she was tied to one of four brothers and she asks was their name Coberger and they asks was their name Coberger and they asks was their name Coberger and they say no. Then the knife sheath the sample say no. Then the knife sheath the sample say no. Then the knife sheath the sample from the knife sheath came back and then from the knife sheath came back and then from the knife sheath came back and then it was sent to the FBI. Why is that

it was sent to the FBI. Why is that it was sent to the FBI. Why is that important? For two reasons. One, we get important? For two reasons. One, we get important? For two reasons. One, we get back to the types of DNA. You have back to the types of DNA. You have back to the types of DNA. You have invest investigative or forensic uh invest investigative or forensic uh invest investigative or forensic uh genetic genealogy which would match that genetic genealogy which would match that genetic genealogy which would match that DNA sample to a group of people like a DNA sample to a group of people like a DNA sample to a group of people like a Yuman 23 type thing or you send it to Yuman 23 type thing or you send it to Yuman 23 type thing or you send it to COTUS which is the DNA database. the COTUS which is the DNA database. the COTUS which is the DNA database. the fingerprint repository basically from fingerprint repository basically from fingerprint repository basically from modern identification which is by modern identification which is by modern identification which is by >> but only if you have a criminal >> but only if you have a criminal >> but only if you have a criminal background background background >> samples in there my samples in there I >> samples in there my samples in there I >> samples in there my samples in there I have no criminal background as long as have no criminal background as long as have no criminal background as long as your samples in there right but if you your samples in there right but if you your samples in there right but if you have Brian Cobberger's DNA which they have Brian Cobberger's DNA which they have Brian Cobberger's DNA which they did and if you have the DNA from the did and if you have the DNA from the did and if you have the DNA from the knife sheath and you are the FBI knife sheath and you are the FBI knife sheath and you are the FBI laboratory and you are using sing or laboratory and you are using sing or laboratory and you are using sing or short tandem repeat identification you short tandem repeat identification you short tandem repeat identification you can match the DNA on the knife sheath to can match the DNA on the knife sheath to can match the DNA on the knife sheath to Brian Coberger because they certainly Brian Coberger because they certainly Brian Coberger because they certainly had both. And this is saying from the had both. And this is saying from the had both. And this is saying from the lead detective saying that did not lead detective saying that did not lead detective saying that did not happen. So what got lost in translation happen. So what got lost in translation happen. So what got lost in translation and what gets lost in translation is and what gets lost in translation is and what gets lost in translation is what many people in the true crime what many people in the true crime what many people in the true crime community talk about now, which is how community talk about now, which is how community talk about now, which is how did they tie the trash found outside the did they tie the trash found outside the did they tie the trash found outside the Kobberger residence in Pennsylvania to Kobberger residence in Pennsylvania to Kobberger residence in Pennsylvania to Brian Kberger's dad to the DNA on the Brian Kberger's dad to the DNA on the Brian Kberger's dad to the DNA on the knife sheath? And what we now know, and knife sheath? And what we now know, and knife sheath? And what we now know, and I don't think anybody disputes this, is I don't think anybody disputes this, is I don't think anybody disputes this, is that it was a uh a snip, which is when that it was a uh a snip, which is when that it was a uh a snip, which is when you send your sample to Yumi and 23, you send your sample to Yumi and 23, you send your sample to Yumi and 23, that's what they base their study on.

that's what they base their study on. that's what they base their study on. When you're trying to tie a fingerprint When you're trying to tie a fingerprint When you're trying to tie a fingerprint to a person, in this case, a DNA sample to a person, in this case, a DNA sample to a person, in this case, a DNA sample to a person, that is a different type of to a person, that is a different type of to a person, that is a different type of DNA analysis. That's what the FBI does. DNA analysis. That's what the FBI does. DNA analysis. That's what the FBI does. That's what they use their kota system That's what they use their kota system That's what they use their kota system for. And that's the modern-day for. And that's the modern-day for. And that's the modern-day equivalent of this person committed that equivalent of this person committed that equivalent of this person committed that crime. And that is what we don't have in crime. And that is what we don't have in crime. And that is what we don't have in this case. And before I wrote this book, this case. And before I wrote this book, this case. And before I wrote this book, I didn't know that. Uh I don't think I didn't know that. Uh I don't think I didn't know that. Uh I don't think most people know that to this day. And I most people know that to this day. And I most people know that to this day. And I would say if you if you dis if you don't would say if you if you dis if you don't would say if you if you dis if you don't fully understand or you disagree with fully understand or you disagree with fully understand or you disagree with what I'm what I'm saying, read the what I'm what I'm saying, read the what I'm what I'm saying, read the transcript. Read the book. Read other transcript. Read the book. Read other transcript. Read the book. Read other people's words saying that. This is people's words saying that. This is people's words saying that. This is Brett Payne, the lead detective, saying, Brett Payne, the lead detective, saying, Brett Payne, the lead detective, saying, "Nobody ever told me that the D that the "Nobody ever told me that the D that the "Nobody ever told me that the D that the DNA on a knife sheath matches Brian DNA on a knife sheath matches Brian DNA on a knife sheath matches Brian Coberger. It should be considered a tip Coberger. It should be considered a tip Coberger. It should be considered a tip for further investigation." So, I'll say for further investigation." So, I'll say for further investigation." So, I'll say this again, this again, this again, >> Chris, >> Chris, >> Chris, >> Brian, I'm sorry, just real quick. Bill >> Brian, I'm sorry, just real quick. Bill >> Brian, I'm sorry, just real quick. Bill Taylor in a July 2nd, 2025 change of Taylor in a July 2nd, 2025 change of Taylor in a July 2nd, 2025 change of plea hearing war, he recited the plea hearing war, he recited the plea hearing war, he recited the evidence. He, the lead prosecutor, does evidence. He, the lead prosecutor, does evidence. He, the lead prosecutor, does not say Brian Cobberger's DNA was found not say Brian Cobberger's DNA was found not say Brian Cobberger's DNA was found on the knife sheath. He said uh uh on the knife sheath. He said uh uh on the knife sheath. He said uh uh information linking him to the sheath information linking him to the sheath information linking him to the sheath was found. And that's a very different was found. And that's a very different was found. And that's a very different thing. So if we're talking about DNA, thing. So if we're talking about DNA, thing. So if we're talking about DNA, which is the smoking gun, it is the which is the smoking gun, it is the which is the smoking gun, it is the limit test. It is the proof beyond a limit test. It is the proof beyond a limit test. It is the proof beyond a reasonable doubt that his DNA was found reasonable doubt that his DNA was found reasonable doubt that his DNA was found on a knife sheath. The prosecution does on a knife sheath. The prosecution does on a knife sheath. The prosecution does not allege that. The file does not show not allege that. The file does not show not allege that. The file does not show that. And uh the transcripts that I that. And uh the transcripts that I that. And uh the transcripts that I quote in this book make that in my quote in this book make that in my quote in this book make that in my estimation quite clear. I want to make

estimation quite clear. I want to make estimation quite clear. I want to make sure that I understood you correctly. sure that I understood you correctly. sure that I understood you correctly. Are you saying that that is not Brian Are you saying that that is not Brian Are you saying that that is not Brian Cobberger's DNA? Cobberger's DNA? Cobberger's DNA? >> No, I'm not saying that at all. What I'm >> No, I'm not saying that at all. What I'm >> No, I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying saying saying >> what I'm saying is there are two types >> what I'm saying is there are two types >> what I'm saying is there are two types of identification. One may link him of identification. One may link him of identification. One may link him somehow through family through somehow through family through somehow through family through investigative genetic genealogy which is investigative genetic genealogy which is investigative genetic genealogy which is a matching him to a a population base a matching him to a a population base a matching him to a a population base that may have been found by the FBI and that may have been found by the FBI and that may have been found by the FBI and maybe by Aram Labs on the knife sheath maybe by Aram Labs on the knife sheath maybe by Aram Labs on the knife sheath but a sing a short tandem repeat but a sing a short tandem repeat but a sing a short tandem repeat identical match between the DNA and the identical match between the DNA and the identical match between the DNA and the knife sheath and Brian Cobber that was knife sheath and Brian Cobber that was knife sheath and Brian Cobber that was never alleged by the prosecution and it never alleged by the prosecution and it never alleged by the prosecution and it was stated in the book quoting the was stated in the book quoting the was stated in the book quoting the Frank's hearing from the lead Frank's hearing from the lead Frank's hearing from the lead investigator The FBI never said that. investigator The FBI never said that. investigator The FBI never said that. So is it am I saying that it is certain So is it am I saying that it is certain So is it am I saying that it is certain that his DNA is not on a knife sheath? that his DNA is not on a knife sheath? that his DNA is not on a knife sheath? No. Am I saying it is certain that his No. Am I saying it is certain that his No. Am I saying it is certain that his DNA is found on a knife sheath? No. And DNA is found on a knife sheath? No. And DNA is found on a knife sheath? No. And this is not my uh analysis. This is this is not my uh analysis. This is this is not my uh analysis. This is their words and all I do is quote them their words and all I do is quote them their words and all I do is quote them in the book.

in the book. in the book. >> Okay. So >> Okay. So >> Okay. So >> it yes and no. Because again there's a >> it yes and no. Because again there's a >> it yes and no. Because again there's a lot we don't know. We don't know what we lot we don't know. We don't know what we lot we don't know. We don't know what we don't know. Um, don't know. Um, don't know. Um, so let me ask you this. so let me ask you this. so let me ask you this. If I am understanding you correctly, If I am understanding you correctly, If I am understanding you correctly, this would have been a vulnerability this would have been a vulnerability this would have been a vulnerability for the case at trial potentially. Does that mean do you think I I'm so Does that mean do you think I I'm so confused here. [laughter] confused here. [laughter] confused here. [laughter] >> Okay. No, it's a great question and I >> Okay. No, it's a great question and I >> Okay. No, it's a great question and I think I get to the bottom of it. So think I get to the bottom of it. So think I get to the bottom of it. So prosecution makes alg they present a prosecution makes alg they present a prosecution makes alg they present a case. It's not allegations. They present case. It's not allegations. They present case. It's not allegations. They present a case in the criminal justice system in a case in the criminal justice system in a case in the criminal justice system in the United States of America and a the United States of America and a the United States of America and a defense gets to say no wait a minute defense gets to say no wait a minute defense gets to say no wait a minute that's not true. I mean wrongful that's not true. I mean wrongful that's not true. I mean wrongful conviction I'm not alleging it in this conviction I'm not alleging it in this conviction I'm not alleging it in this case. Wrongful conviction is a big part case. Wrongful conviction is a big part case. Wrongful conviction is a big part of the American criminal justice system. of the American criminal justice system. of the American criminal justice system. We all know that half the shows on TV We all know that half the shows on TV We all know that half the shows on TV are about that or podcasts right are about that or podcasts right are about that or podcasts right whatever. What I'm saying is that Brian whatever. What I'm saying is that Brian whatever. What I'm saying is that Brian Kberger's defense team led by Annne Kberger's defense team led by Annne Kberger's defense team led by Annne Taylor would certainly have challenged Taylor would certainly have challenged Taylor would certainly have challenged all aspects of this in a in a trial.

all aspects of this in a in a trial. all aspects of this in a in a trial. Fair enough. Fair enough. Fair enough. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> What I'm saying is people today that >> What I'm saying is people today that >> What I'm saying is people today that have not read this book or have not have not read this book or have not have not read this book or have not looked at these documents that I looked at these documents that I looked at these documents that I reference in the book, they do not know reference in the book, they do not know reference in the book, they do not know what Ann Taylor would have alleged at what Ann Taylor would have alleged at what Ann Taylor would have alleged at trial or what what she would have tried trial or what what she would have tried trial or what what she would have tried to poke holes in at trial. I'm saying to poke holes in at trial. I'm saying to poke holes in at trial. I'm saying this would have been a big one. this would have been a big one. this would have been a big one. >> Okay. So if again to make sure I >> Okay. So if again to make sure I >> Okay. So if again to make sure I understand you, this would have been understand you, this would have been understand you, this would have been more of a vulnerability than we more of a vulnerability than we more of a vulnerability than we understand about the DNA that was understand about the DNA that was understand about the DNA that was allegedly found at the scene. allegedly found at the scene. allegedly found at the scene. >> That's correct. I say we I try to lay >> That's correct. I say we I try to lay >> That's correct. I say we I try to lay that out in great detail in the book. I that out in great detail in the book. I that out in great detail in the book. I mean, this is probably 25 pages in the mean, this is probably 25 pages in the mean, this is probably 25 pages in the book or something. And it looks at book or something. And it looks at book or something. And it looks at everything. I look at the lab science. I everything. I look at the lab science. I everything. I look at the lab science. I look what the Department of Justice look what the Department of Justice look what the Department of Justice says. I look at the transcripts. I look says. I look at the transcripts. I look says. I look at the transcripts. I look what the prosecution said and defense what the prosecution said and defense what the prosecution said and defense said. We're talking about this now uh in said. We're talking about this now uh in said. We're talking about this now uh in in in a podcast, but the difference in in a podcast, but the difference in in a podcast, but the difference between what we're discussing about the between what we're discussing about the between what we're discussing about the case and the book is the book is a is a case and the book is the book is a is a case and the book is the book is a is a discrete, discrete, discrete, properly laid out, properly laid out, properly laid out, thoughtout process that when you read thoughtout process that when you read thoughtout process that when you read it, it will make sense in ways that us it, it will make sense in ways that us it, it will make sense in ways that us going through it now will not. Does that going through it now will not. Does that going through it now will not. Does that make sense?

make sense? make sense? >> Yes, absolutely. So, we've established >> Yes, absolutely. So, we've established >> Yes, absolutely. So, we've established based on your investigation of the based on your investigation of the based on your investigation of the documents that you had access to that documents that you had access to that documents that you had access to that there was some vulnerability about the there was some vulnerability about the there was some vulnerability about the DNA evidence against Brian Cobberger had DNA evidence against Brian Cobberger had DNA evidence against Brian Cobberger had this gone to trial. But what we don't this gone to trial. But what we don't this gone to trial. But what we don't know is really how that would have know is really how that would have know is really how that would have played out and what it really meant played out and what it really meant played out and what it really meant other than it was a vulnerability. Okay. other than it was a vulnerability. Okay. other than it was a vulnerability. Okay. What else about this case does it stands What else about this case does it stands What else about this case does it stands out to you? out to you? out to you? What stands out to me most and what we What stands out to me most and what we What stands out to me most and what we probably should have spent the most of probably should have spent the most of probably should have spent the most of time talking about is that you have time talking about is that you have time talking about is that you have three crime scenes within this house. three crime scenes within this house. three crime scenes within this house. The house at 11:22 King Road, Moscow, The house at 11:22 King Road, Moscow, The house at 11:22 King Road, Moscow, Idaho, uh around 4:15 timeline Idaho, uh around 4:15 timeline Idaho, uh around 4:15 timeline established by by the prosecution in the established by by the prosecution in the established by by the prosecution in the house. Number one, everybody that I know house. Number one, everybody that I know house. Number one, everybody that I know of from the prosecution, law of from the prosecution, law of from the prosecution, law enforcement, and everybody else have enforcement, and everybody else have enforcement, and everybody else have stated fairly certainly the first two stated fairly certainly the first two stated fairly certainly the first two crimes occurred on the third floor crimes occurred on the third floor crimes occurred on the third floor bedroom. Mattie Morgan's bedroom on the bedroom. Mattie Morgan's bedroom on the bedroom. Mattie Morgan's bedroom on the third floor of the house. That's where third floor of the house. That's where third floor of the house. That's where Kaye Gonovves and Mattie Morgan were Kaye Gonovves and Mattie Morgan were Kaye Gonovves and Mattie Morgan were murdered. The killer moved from that murdered. The killer moved from that murdered. The killer moved from that bedroom back down a staircase to the bedroom back down a staircase to the bedroom back down a staircase to the second floor where they probably second floor where they probably second floor where they probably encountered Zana Kernodal in around the encountered Zana Kernodal in around the encountered Zana Kernodal in around the kitchen, chased her across the living kitchen, chased her across the living kitchen, chased her across the living room, left down a hallway into her room, left down a hallway into her room, left down a hallway into her bedroom where she was murdered on the bedroom where she was murdered on the bedroom where she was murdered on the floor uh adjacent to Ethan Chapen, her floor uh adjacent to Ethan Chapen, her floor uh adjacent to Ethan Chapen, her boyfriend, who was in the bed. So you boyfriend, who was in the bed. So you boyfriend, who was in the bed. So you have two crime scenes in that regard.

have two crime scenes in that regard. have two crime scenes in that regard. You have the bedroom on the third floor. You have the bedroom on the third floor. You have the bedroom on the third floor. You have the bedroom on the second You have the bedroom on the second You have the bedroom on the second floor. But investigators found blood floor. But investigators found blood floor. But investigators found blood trails, transfers, found blood trails, transfers, found blood trails, transfers, found blood transfers, which could be smears or transfers, which could be smears or transfers, which could be smears or drops or things of that nature from the drops or things of that nature from the drops or things of that nature from the third floor bedroom down the stairs on third floor bedroom down the stairs on third floor bedroom down the stairs on the walls and the handrail across what the walls and the handrail across what the walls and the handrail across what is now known to be the the beer pong is now known to be the the beer pong is now known to be the the beer pong table. um on those walls, left down the table. um on those walls, left down the table. um on those walls, left down the hallway into the bedroom and then Kale hallway into the bedroom and then Kale hallway into the bedroom and then Kale of Xanna's bedroom where she and Ethan of Xanna's bedroom where she and Ethan of Xanna's bedroom where she and Ethan were killed. Looking at the photos, were killed. Looking at the photos, were killed. Looking at the photos, looking at a woman named Pvette Sutton's looking at a woman named Pvette Sutton's looking at a woman named Pvette Sutton's forensic analysis for the prosecution, forensic analysis for the prosecution, forensic analysis for the prosecution, it appears to me very, very clear that it appears to me very, very clear that it appears to me very, very clear that the bedroom on the third floor looks the bedroom on the third floor looks the bedroom on the third floor looks like a typical crime scene. Horrific. like a typical crime scene. Horrific. like a typical crime scene. Horrific. I'm not trying to downplay it. Blood I'm not trying to downplay it. Blood I'm not trying to downplay it. Blood spatter, uh gruesome violence, things of spatter, uh gruesome violence, things of spatter, uh gruesome violence, things of that nature. The bedroom on the second that nature. The bedroom on the second that nature. The bedroom on the second floor shows the exact same things. what floor shows the exact same things. what floor shows the exact same things. what one would expect of a gruesome murder one would expect of a gruesome murder one would expect of a gruesome murder scene. The the space between the third scene. The the space between the third scene. The the space between the third floor bedroom, down the stairs, across floor bedroom, down the stairs, across floor bedroom, down the stairs, across the living room, and down the hallway the living room, and down the hallway the living room, and down the hallway looks dramatically different. And it looks dramatically different. And it looks dramatically different. And it looks so different that when the looks so different that when the looks so different that when the prosecution uh produced their report prosecution uh produced their report prosecution uh produced their report done by this woman named uh Pvette done by this woman named uh Pvette done by this woman named uh Pvette Sutton, she concluded that all of the Sutton, she concluded that all of the Sutton, she concluded that all of the stains in the common areas of the house stains in the common areas of the house stains in the common areas of the house on the second floor were quote unquote on the second floor were quote unquote on the second floor were quote unquote diluted with an unknown substance. never diluted with an unknown substance. never diluted with an unknown substance. never said what the substance was, never said what the substance was, never said what the substance was, never explained how they were diluted. She had explained how they were diluted. She had explained how they were diluted. She had a theory, um, which we can talk about if a theory, um, which we can talk about if a theory, um, which we can talk about if you want, but anybody looking at the you want, but anybody looking at the you want, but anybody looking at the crime scene photos, many of which are crime scene photos, many of which are crime scene photos, many of which are coming out now, there is a dramatic, and coming out now, there is a dramatic, and coming out now, there is a dramatic, and you don't have to be a criminologist, you don't have to be a criminologist, you don't have to be a criminologist, you don't have to have a former FBI you don't have to have a former FBI you don't have to have a former FBI agent or or whatever else, you're many

agent or or whatever else, you're many agent or or whatever else, you're many of your viewers are very knowledgeable, of your viewers are very knowledgeable, of your viewers are very knowledgeable, very very very backgrounds. How did two crime scenes or backgrounds. How did two crime scenes or backgrounds. How did two crime scenes or the the the third floor bedroom and the the the the third floor bedroom and the the the the third floor bedroom and the second floor bedroom which are almost second floor bedroom which are almost second floor bedroom which are almost identical in terms of the mechanism, how identical in terms of the mechanism, how identical in terms of the mechanism, how do those look so different from the do those look so different from the do those look so different from the blood spatter and transfer between those blood spatter and transfer between those blood spatter and transfer between those two spaces? And the prosecution's report two spaces? And the prosecution's report two spaces? And the prosecution's report says they were diluted with an unknown says they were diluted with an unknown says they were diluted with an unknown substance substance substance brings up a question. How did they get brings up a question. How did they get brings up a question. How did they get diluted? By whom did they get diluted? diluted? By whom did they get diluted? diluted? By whom did they get diluted? And why were they diluted? And then it And why were they diluted? And then it And why were they diluted? And then it comes back to your original question comes back to your original question comes back to your original question about timeline. The prosecution timeline about timeline. The prosecution timeline about timeline. The prosecution timeline is somewhere between three and five is somewhere between three and five is somewhere between three and five minutes. That Brian Coberger got in the minutes. That Brian Coberger got in the minutes. That Brian Coberger got in the house, through the kitchen door, went house, through the kitchen door, went house, through the kitchen door, went upstairs, killed two people, grotesque upstairs, killed two people, grotesque upstairs, killed two people, grotesque injuries, went back downstairs, injuries, went back downstairs, injuries, went back downstairs, encountered Zana, ran down the hallway encountered Zana, ran down the hallway encountered Zana, ran down the hallway to her bedroom, killed her on the floor, to her bedroom, killed her on the floor, to her bedroom, killed her on the floor, killed Ethan in the bed. Okay. 6'4, 230B killed Ethan in the bed. Okay. 6'4, 230B killed Ethan in the bed. Okay. 6'4, 230B uh former high school football player uh former high school football player uh former high school football player died in bed 3 feet from his girlfriend died in bed 3 feet from his girlfriend died in bed 3 feet from his girlfriend who was apparently screaming so loudly who was apparently screaming so loudly who was apparently screaming so loudly you could hear her on video uh footage you could hear her on video uh footage you could hear her on video uh footage down the street. And um so is that down the street. And um so is that down the street. And um so is that plausible? Maybe. Maybe it's plausible plausible? Maybe. Maybe it's plausible plausible? Maybe. Maybe it's plausible that he did that and got out of the that he did that and got out of the that he did that and got out of the house, got in his car and drove away house, got in his car and drove away house, got in his car and drove away because the the timeline is established because the the timeline is established because the the timeline is established by the white car leaving the residence by the white car leaving the residence by the white car leaving the residence essentially, right? So is that essentially, right? So is that essentially, right? So is that plausible? So if you eliminate the white plausible? So if you eliminate the white plausible? So if you eliminate the white car, car, car, are do you believe that actually the are do you believe that actually the are do you believe that actually the murder took place over a longer the murder took place over a longer the murder took place over a longer the murderers took place over a longer

murderers took place over a longer murderers took place over a longer period of time and that that is more period of time and that that is more period of time and that that is more likely? likely? likely? >> I believe my my belief based on all the >> I believe my my belief based on all the >> I believe my my belief based on all the evidence the defense of turn the defense evidence the defense of turn the defense evidence the defense of turn the defense evidence the prosecution I don't think evidence the prosecution I don't think evidence the prosecution I don't think anybody disputes the or many listen many anybody disputes the or many listen many anybody disputes the or many listen many of your viewers do dispute it. I've of your viewers do dispute it. I've of your viewers do dispute it. I've heard endless theories about they were heard endless theories about they were heard endless theories about they were killed early or whatever else. I think killed early or whatever else. I think killed early or whatever else. I think the evidence shows what everybody on the evidence shows what everybody on the evidence shows what everybody on both sides of the prosecution and the both sides of the prosecution and the both sides of the prosecution and the defense have said that it probably did. defense have said that it probably did. defense have said that it probably did. They probably the killer went to the They probably the killer went to the They probably the killer went to the third Coberger went to the third floor, third Coberger went to the third floor, third Coberger went to the third floor, killed the two, came downstairs, ran killed the two, came downstairs, ran killed the two, came downstairs, ran into Zana, chased him down the hall. into Zana, chased him down the hall. into Zana, chased him down the hall. Bill Bill Thompson said this in in that Bill Bill Thompson said this in in that Bill Bill Thompson said this in in that hearing in a change of plea hearing. hearing in a change of plea hearing. hearing in a change of plea hearing. That's the that's That's the that's That's the that's that's the the narrative. Okay. What I that's the the narrative. Okay. What I that's the the narrative. Okay. What I dispute, what I question, and what I dispute, what I question, and what I dispute, what I question, and what I cannot figure out is who cleaned up the cannot figure out is who cleaned up the cannot figure out is who cleaned up the spaces in between and how did they do spaces in between and how did they do spaces in between and how did they do that in that period of time? And that that in that period of time? And that that in that period of time? And that makes no sense. And if that's the case, makes no sense. And if that's the case, makes no sense. And if that's the case, who did and why? So there's a question who did and why? So there's a question who did and why? So there's a question of whether or not one person even Brian of whether or not one person even Brian of whether or not one person even Brian Coberger's size could have killed and we Coberger's size could have killed and we Coberger's size could have killed and we can't talk about the details. We don't can't talk about the details. We don't can't talk about the details. We don't have time killed those two women on the have time killed those two women on the have time killed those two women on the third floor went downstairs and then third floor went downstairs and then third floor went downstairs and then killed Zana on the floor next to her killed Zana on the floor next to her killed Zana on the floor next to her very large and very physically capable very large and very physically capable very large and very physically capable boyfriend in the bed next to him. How boyfriend in the bed next to him. How boyfriend in the bed next to him. How did one person do that? So the first did one person do that? So the first did one person do that? So the first question is did Brian Coberger do it question is did Brian Coberger do it question is did Brian Coberger do it alone? And who was his initial target, alone? And who was his initial target, alone? And who was his initial target, which I say in the book was most likely which I say in the book was most likely which I say in the book was most likely Kaylee Galves because the nature of his Kaylee Galves because the nature of his Kaylee Galves because the nature of his of her injuries. And then how did he get of her injuries. And then how did he get of her injuries. And then how did he get down, kill those in the in Zana and down, kill those in the in Zana and down, kill those in the in Zana and Ethan and get out of the house and drive Ethan and get out of the house and drive Ethan and get out of the house and drive away in that period of time? Police say

away in that period of time? Police say away in that period of time? Police say that's plausible. Maybe it's plausible. that's plausible. Maybe it's plausible. that's plausible. Maybe it's plausible. How did the crime scene get changed so How did the crime scene get changed so How did the crime scene get changed so significantly visually and in terms of significantly visually and in terms of significantly visually and in terms of the prosecution's own report? How did the prosecution's own report? How did the prosecution's own report? How did that happen in 5 minutes? and why did it that happen in 5 minutes? and why did it that happen in 5 minutes? and why did it take eight hours before police take eight hours before police take eight hours before police responded? Those are big questions and responded? Those are big questions and responded? Those are big questions and that's a big part of the book. that's a big part of the book. that's a big part of the book. >> And honestly, I don't think we're ever >> And honestly, I don't think we're ever >> And honestly, I don't think we're ever going to get those answers unless Brian going to get those answers unless Brian going to get those answers unless Brian Cobberger himself sheds some light on Cobberger himself sheds some light on Cobberger himself sheds some light on this. I I think that this will continue this. I I think that this will continue this. I I think that this will continue to be a huge mystery. And then the other to be a huge mystery. And then the other to be a huge mystery. And then the other thing, right, is the delay and the thing, right, is the delay and the thing, right, is the delay and the confusion in the house with the confusion in the house with the confusion in the house with the survivors, survivors, survivors, you know, not realizing that you know, not realizing that you know, not realizing that four roommates had just been murdered. four roommates had just been murdered. four roommates had just been murdered. >> No, I and and I've got to say this >> No, I and and I've got to say this >> No, I and and I've got to say this because I I I think we both find this because I I I think we both find this because I I I think we both find this kind of frustrating. I think your kind of frustrating. I think your kind of frustrating. I think your viewers will find it frustrating. I'm viewers will find it frustrating. I'm viewers will find it frustrating. I'm not answering all these questions, but not answering all these questions, but not answering all these questions, but it's such a big conversation and we have it's such a big conversation and we have it's such a big conversation and we have a limited amount of time. I go through a limited amount of time. I go through a limited amount of time. I go through these in the book in a very detailed, these in the book in a very detailed, these in the book in a very detailed, methodical, evidence-based manner and methodical, evidence-based manner and methodical, evidence-based manner and point out many of these questions. I point out many of these questions. I point out many of these questions. I don't have the answers because I don't don't have the answers because I don't don't have the answers because I don't posit any theories, but I say based on posit any theories, but I say based on posit any theories, but I say based on my experience and you know, a regular my experience and you know, a regular my experience and you know, a regular person looking at these things, how do person looking at these things, how do person looking at these things, how do we not address these questions? If Brian we not address these questions? If Brian we not address these questions? If Brian Cobberg, let's just say Brian Cobberger Cobberg, let's just say Brian Cobberger Cobberg, let's just say Brian Cobberger plead guilty, he committed these crimes, plead guilty, he committed these crimes, plead guilty, he committed these crimes, do we say it's enough to say, oh, we got do we say it's enough to say, oh, we got do we say it's enough to say, oh, we got half the people involved? Do we not look half the people involved? Do we not look half the people involved? Do we not look into who helped him do these things? Do into who helped him do these things? Do into who helped him do these things? Do we not ask how is it possible that these

we not ask how is it possible that these we not ask how is it possible that these anomalies to this day have not been anomalies to this day have not been anomalies to this day have not been addressed or answered in lie of a trial? addressed or answered in lie of a trial? addressed or answered in lie of a trial? That's why I wrote the book. That's why I wrote the book. That's why I wrote the book. >> But Chris, if there were other people >> But Chris, if there were other people >> But Chris, if there were other people involved, right? And Cobberger knows involved, right? And Cobberger knows involved, right? And Cobberger knows this, why wouldn't he tell us? this, why wouldn't he tell us? this, why wouldn't he tell us? >> Well, Brian Coberger didn't never said >> Well, Brian Coberger didn't never said >> Well, Brian Coberger didn't never said anything about anything. He didn't tell anything about anything. He didn't tell anything about anything. He didn't tell us us us >> anything. So why didn't he tell us this? >> anything. So why didn't he tell us this? >> anything. So why didn't he tell us this? Because he never said a word about Because he never said a word about Because he never said a word about anything. He didn't even plead when he anything. He didn't even plead when he anything. He didn't even plead when he was first arrested and presented at was first arrested and presented at was first arrested and presented at court. He didn't even plead not guilty. court. He didn't even plead not guilty. court. He didn't even plead not guilty. His attorney did it for him. He's never His attorney did it for him. He's never His attorney did it for him. He's never said much of anything until he pled said said much of anything until he pled said said much of anything until he pled said yes to pleading guilty. So those yes to pleading guilty. So those yes to pleading guilty. So those questions will go to the grave with him. questions will go to the grave with him. questions will go to the grave with him. I wrote this book asking people to look I wrote this book asking people to look I wrote this book asking people to look at this case and say, are there big at this case and say, are there big at this case and say, are there big issues that perhaps someday will be issues that perhaps someday will be issues that perhaps someday will be addressed? addressed? addressed? I want to hope so. I mean, I'm as a I want to hope so. I mean, I'm as a I want to hope so. I mean, I'm as a former investigator, law enforcement, former investigator, law enforcement, former investigator, law enforcement, uh, you know, off an FBI agent in the uh, you know, off an FBI agent in the uh, you know, off an FBI agent in the course of my life. Um, do I believe in course of my life. Um, do I believe in course of my life. Um, do I believe in justice? Yes. Do I believe that the justice? Yes. Do I believe that the justice? Yes. Do I believe that the American justice system is the best in American justice system is the best in American justice system is the best in the world? Yes. Do I believe it's the world? Yes. Do I believe it's the world? Yes. Do I believe it's perfect? No. We see it every day. The perfect? No. We see it every day. The perfect? No. We see it every day. The Innocence Foundation and things like Innocence Foundation and things like Innocence Foundation and things like that. Again, you know what? Conviction.

that. Again, you know what? Conviction. that. Again, you know what? Conviction. I said, "Is it a complete conviction?" I said, "Is it a complete conviction?" I said, "Is it a complete conviction?" And my answer uh is it doesn't appear And my answer uh is it doesn't appear And my answer uh is it doesn't appear that way to me. that way to me. that way to me. I think the part that is so I think the part that is so I think the part that is so unsatisfactory, unsatisfactory, unsatisfactory, right, that we all just do not feel right, that we all just do not feel right, that we all just do not feel comfortable with is even when we have a comfortable with is even when we have a comfortable with is even when we have a full trial that can go on for weeks, full trial that can go on for weeks, full trial that can go on for weeks, at the end of it, even with a jury at the end of it, even with a jury at the end of it, even with a jury verdict, verdict, verdict, we don't always we don't always we don't always know and know what happened in those know and know what happened in those know and know what happened in those what I call the fuzzy gray areas that we what I call the fuzzy gray areas that we what I call the fuzzy gray areas that we just don't know the answers to. just don't know the answers to. just don't know the answers to. So, it's never satisfying that we have a So, it's never satisfying that we have a So, it's never satisfying that we have a full answer. And I understand and agree full answer. And I understand and agree full answer. And I understand and agree with why you are raising all the with why you are raising all the with why you are raising all the questions you are. questions you are. questions you are. We didn't have a trial. I don't even I We didn't have a trial. I don't even I We didn't have a trial. I don't even I don't even know that this would have don't even know that this would have don't even know that this would have been answered at trial. It just would been answered at trial. It just would been answered at trial. It just would have been one of those like, well, we have been one of those like, well, we have been one of those like, well, we don't know how that happened, but we don't know how that happened, but we don't know how that happened, but we know for sure this happened, so who else know for sure this happened, so who else know for sure this happened, so who else could it have been? And you, you know, could it have been? And you, you know, could it have been? And you, you know, sadly that's it. like we may never know sadly that's it. like we may never know sadly that's it. like we may never know these answers.

these answers. these answers. >> I agree. But I also argue that in the >> I agree. But I also argue that in the >> I agree. But I also argue that in the case of this important and and the case of this important and and the case of this important and and the passion surrounding this case, it's very passion surrounding this case, it's very passion surrounding this case, it's very passionate. People have been talking passionate. People have been talking passionate. People have been talking about this for years and they all about this for years and they all about this for years and they all there's a thousand opinions. There's a there's a thousand opinions. There's a there's a thousand opinions. There's a thousand theories. There's a million thousand theories. There's a million thousand theories. There's a million different aspects. If none of this had different aspects. If none of this had different aspects. If none of this had come out, if I chosen not to do this and come out, if I chosen not to do this and come out, if I chosen not to do this and if these people had not given me the if these people had not given me the if these people had not given me the information because they felt badly that information because they felt badly that information because they felt badly that I used in the book, we wouldn't know I used in the book, we wouldn't know I used in the book, we wouldn't know anything. We wouldn't know any of these anything. We wouldn't know any of these anything. We wouldn't know any of these issues or any of these concerns. So I issues or any of these concerns. So I issues or any of these concerns. So I agree with you 100%. If it had gone to agree with you 100%. If it had gone to agree with you 100%. If it had gone to trial, we still not may not know trial, we still not may not know trial, we still not may not know everything, but if it had gone to trial, everything, but if it had gone to trial, everything, but if it had gone to trial, we would have known a great deal and at we would have known a great deal and at we would have known a great deal and at least we could talk about it least we could talk about it least we could talk about it intelligently. And that at least in in intelligently. And that at least in in intelligently. And that at least in in my uh in my life, that's why I I felt it my uh in my life, that's why I I felt it my uh in my life, that's why I I felt it was important. was important. was important. >> Mhm. So >> Mhm. So >> Mhm. So >> in all cases, >> in all cases, >> in all cases, >> do you do you think >> do you do you think >> do you do you think that of the evidence that you have gone that of the evidence that you have gone that of the evidence that you have gone through that there was enough to say through that there was enough to say through that there was enough to say Brian Cobberger was the likely killer? Brian Cobberger was the likely killer? Brian Cobberger was the likely killer? >> Uh it's a fascinating question and I >> Uh it's a fascinating question and I >> Uh it's a fascinating question and I have thought about it have thought about it have thought about it ever since I started this thing. I ever since I started this thing. I ever since I started this thing. I really have because remember I have really have because remember I have really have because remember I have tremendous amounts of information about tremendous amounts of information about tremendous amounts of information about that never made it to the book. For that never made it to the book. For that never made it to the book. For example, I never talked about all the example, I never talked about all the example, I never talked about all the other suspects that police identified other suspects that police identified other suspects that police identified and there were many people all of the and there were many people all of the and there were many people all of the different people that have appeared in different people that have appeared in different people that have appeared in the in the public conversation. I don't the in the public conversation. I don't the in the public conversation. I don't talk about those things in this podcast talk about those things in this podcast talk about those things in this podcast or in the book because they were taken or in the book because they were taken or in the book because they were taken out uh for liel reasons, right? I don't out uh for liel reasons, right? I don't out uh for liel reasons, right? I don't talk about those things. But this book talk about those things. But this book talk about those things. But this book looks very specifically at certain

looks very specifically at certain looks very specifically at certain issues. The true span of what police had issues. The true span of what police had issues. The true span of what police had in this investigation is vast and and in this investigation is vast and and in this investigation is vast and and many people will never ever know that many people will never ever know that many people will never ever know that information or be able to look at that information or be able to look at that information or be able to look at that information because it's it's not it's information because it's it's not it's information because it's it's not it's not out there. It's not going to be not out there. It's not going to be not out there. It's not going to be disclosed. It's it's not going to be disclosed. It's it's not going to be disclosed. It's it's not going to be conversation. conversation. conversation. >> I I just need to go back to DNA for a >> I I just need to go back to DNA for a >> I I just need to go back to DNA for a minute. Not that DNA, but the scene. minute. Not that DNA, but the scene. minute. Not that DNA, but the scene. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Is it is it possible >> Is it is it possible >> Is it is it possible because this is the part that I have because this is the part that I have because this is the part that I have wrestled with. How is it possible that wrestled with. How is it possible that wrestled with. How is it possible that you could have four incredibly physical you could have four incredibly physical you could have four incredibly physical violent murders even though there was violent murders even though there was violent murders even though there was you know there some of them may have you know there some of them may have you know there some of them may have been sleepy or caught off guard. So, you been sleepy or caught off guard. So, you been sleepy or caught off guard. So, you know, you get an advantage there. But know, you get an advantage there. But know, you get an advantage there. But how can blood everywhere how can blood everywhere how can blood everywhere >> everywhere? How how is it possible that >> everywhere? How how is it possible that >> everywhere? How how is it possible that the killer's DNA was found nowhere else the killer's DNA was found nowhere else the killer's DNA was found nowhere else and that there wasn't a massive trail of and that there wasn't a massive trail of and that there wasn't a massive trail of blood leading outside the house?

blood leading outside the house? blood leading outside the house? >> Yes, a huge part of that book asked that >> Yes, a huge part of that book asked that >> Yes, a huge part of that book asked that question, including this. If these question, including this. If these question, including this. If these crimes occurred, four horrible murders crimes occurred, four horrible murders crimes occurred, four horrible murders and the the common areas of the second and the the common areas of the second and the the common areas of the second floor, the blood got there because there floor, the blood got there because there floor, the blood got there because there were trajectories where somebody was were trajectories where somebody was were trajectories where somebody was swinging a knife or a blunt object, swinging a knife or a blunt object, swinging a knife or a blunt object, somebody was swinging something with somebody was swinging something with somebody was swinging something with blood from the third floor. Kaye and blood from the third floor. Kaye and blood from the third floor. Kaye and Mattiey's blood came to the second floor Mattiey's blood came to the second floor Mattiey's blood came to the second floor and is all over the walls. How did it and is all over the walls. How did it and is all over the walls. How did it get there? It got there because the get there? It got there because the get there? It got there because the killer was swinging an arm and spreading killer was swinging an arm and spreading killer was swinging an arm and spreading the blood on the walls which was later the blood on the walls which was later the blood on the walls which was later diluted with an unknown substance. So, diluted with an unknown substance. So, diluted with an unknown substance. So, it is violent. There's blood everywhere it is violent. There's blood everywhere it is violent. There's blood everywhere and the question is if this killer is and the question is if this killer is and the question is if this killer is soaked in blood, which is obvious to soaked in blood, which is obvious to soaked in blood, which is obvious to anyone, and committed these crimes in 3 anyone, and committed these crimes in 3 anyone, and committed these crimes in 3 to 5 minutes and then ran out, there is to 5 minutes and then ran out, there is to 5 minutes and then ran out, there is no blood on the floor anywhere on the no blood on the floor anywhere on the no blood on the floor anywhere on the second floor of that house. It's on the second floor of that house. It's on the second floor of that house. It's on the walls. It's on the beer pong table. It's walls. It's on the beer pong table. It's walls. It's on the beer pong table. It's not on the floors. It's not in the not on the floors. It's not in the not on the floors. It's not in the kitchen. It's not in the concrete slab kitchen. It's not in the concrete slab kitchen. It's not in the concrete slab outside. And very, very significantly, outside. And very, very significantly, outside. And very, very significantly, it's not in his car. Not a single human it's not in his car. Not a single human it's not in his car. Not a single human cell of DNA that ties him to those crime cell of DNA that ties him to those crime cell of DNA that ties him to those crime scenes was ever found in that car. And scenes was ever found in that car. And scenes was ever found in that car. And it was dissembled to nuts and bolts. So, it was dissembled to nuts and bolts. So, it was dissembled to nuts and bolts. So, are these important questions? Are they are these important questions? Are they are these important questions? Are they definitive answers? No. Do they present, definitive answers? No. Do they present, definitive answers? No. Do they present, as you just did, questions that a as you just did, questions that a as you just did, questions that a reasonable person might say, "How did reasonable person might say, "How did reasonable person might say, "How did these things happen?" In my opinion, these things happen?" In my opinion, these things happen?" In my opinion, those are important questions. [snorts] those are important questions. [snorts] those are important questions. [snorts] >> So, do you think that they weren't found >> So, do you think that they weren't found >> So, do you think that they weren't found because the killer was that proficient?

because the killer was that proficient? because the killer was that proficient? Or Or Or >> how do you get that proficient? How do >> how do you get that proficient? How do >> how do you get that proficient? How do you commit those crimes and get from you commit those crimes and get from you commit those crimes and get from Zana's bedroom to where he saw Dylan Zana's bedroom to where he saw Dylan Zana's bedroom to where he saw Dylan Mortonson at her bedroom which is on his Mortonson at her bedroom which is on his Mortonson at her bedroom which is on his way out of the place clad in in the same way out of the place clad in in the same way out of the place clad in in the same clothes? She said he was wearing black clothes? She said he was wearing black clothes? She said he was wearing black clothing and a black balaclava um maybe clothing and a black balaclava um maybe clothing and a black balaclava um maybe holding something in his hands which he holding something in his hands which he holding something in his hands which he described maybe as a vacuum. How do you described maybe as a vacuum. How do you described maybe as a vacuum. How do you get from the bedroom to that eyewitness get from the bedroom to that eyewitness get from the bedroom to that eyewitness sighting to the to the door in the sighting to the to the door in the sighting to the to the door in the kitchen and get away in that period of kitchen and get away in that period of kitchen and get away in that period of time soaked in the same clothing that uh time soaked in the same clothing that uh time soaked in the same clothing that uh you used to spread blood from the third you used to spread blood from the third you used to spread blood from the third floor over the second floor? How do you floor over the second floor? How do you floor over the second floor? How do you get to that threshold of that sliding get to that threshold of that sliding get to that threshold of that sliding glass door and never track a human a glass door and never track a human a glass door and never track a human a cell of anybody's DNA, any of the four cell of anybody's DNA, any of the four cell of anybody's DNA, any of the four victims or Brian Coberger himself? How victims or Brian Coberger himself? How victims or Brian Coberger himself? How does that happen? These questions, I'm does that happen? These questions, I'm does that happen? These questions, I'm not answering these questions. I'm not answering these questions. I'm not answering these questions. I'm saying how as we how do we as potential saying how as we how do we as potential saying how as we how do we as potential jurors, how do we as concerned people, jurors, how do we as concerned people, jurors, how do we as concerned people, how do we as podcast viewers and true how do we as podcast viewers and true how do we as podcast viewers and true crime advocates, law enforcement, crime advocates, law enforcement, crime advocates, law enforcement, defense attorneys, how do we look at defense attorneys, how do we look at defense attorneys, how do we look at this and say, "Oh, I don't care. I mean, this and say, "Oh, I don't care. I mean, this and say, "Oh, I don't care. I mean, you know, I don't I don't care." In my you know, I don't I don't care." In my you know, I don't I don't care." In my opinion, there's salient features of a opinion, there's salient features of a opinion, there's salient features of a case that begs many, many, many uh more case that begs many, many, many uh more case that begs many, many, many uh more questions.

questions. questions. It's also possible that that white car It's also possible that that white car It's also possible that that white car wasn't his and he was using something wasn't his and he was using something wasn't his and he was using something else and the DNA ended up somewhere else and the DNA ended up somewhere else and the DNA ended up somewhere else. else. else. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> I don't know. >> I don't know. >> I don't know. >> That's not what the prosecution say, but >> That's not what the prosecution say, but >> That's not what the prosecution say, but those are questions we ask. those are questions we ask. those are questions we ask. >> Right. Is that a possibility? For me, >> Right. Is that a possibility? For me, >> Right. Is that a possibility? For me, it's more about how is this not found in it's more about how is this not found in it's more about how is this not found in huge amounts huge amounts huge amounts outside the house? I hear what you're outside the house? I hear what you're outside the house? I hear what you're saying. It wasn't in his car. Okay. saying. It wasn't in his car. Okay. saying. It wasn't in his car. Okay. Possibility he didn't go to his car. Possibility he didn't go to his car. Possibility he didn't go to his car. That's why I wasn't found there. But That's why I wasn't found there. But That's why I wasn't found there. But >> huh, >> huh, >> huh, >> he had to have left the house. So, >> he had to have left the house. So, >> he had to have left the house. So, >> he had to leave the house, >> he had to leave the house, >> he had to leave the house, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> How do How does There's blood on the >> How do How does There's blood on the >> How do How does There's blood on the third floor. There's blood on the second third floor. There's blood on the second third floor. There's blood on the second floor bedroom. There's blood on the floor bedroom. There's blood on the floor bedroom. There's blood on the common areas of the second There's blood common areas of the second There's blood common areas of the second There's blood everywhere. But, uh, it it the common everywhere. But, uh, it it the common everywhere. But, uh, it it the common area is it looks very differently. It's area is it looks very differently. It's area is it looks very differently. It's been diluted with an unknown substance. been diluted with an unknown substance. been diluted with an unknown substance. But how does that killer, soaked in But how does that killer, soaked in But how does that killer, soaked in blood from four horrific crimes, reach blood from four horrific crimes, reach blood from four horrific crimes, reach the threshold of the door in the the threshold of the door in the the threshold of the door in the kitchen, the sliding glass door, and kitchen, the sliding glass door, and kitchen, the sliding glass door, and step onto the concrete and from that step onto the concrete and from that step onto the concrete and from that point on never transfers a blood drop or point on never transfers a blood drop or point on never transfers a blood drop or a human cell of DNA anywhere to his a human cell of DNA anywhere to his a human cell of DNA anywhere to his apartment, to his house, to the concrete apartment, to his house, to the concrete apartment, to his house, to the concrete slab, to the leaves, to the nowhere, slab, to the leaves, to the nowhere, slab, to the leaves, to the nowhere, nowhere is it a is it a reasonable nowhere is it a is it a reasonable nowhere is it a is it a reasonable question to ask question to ask question to ask >> in the death penalty case where four >> in the death penalty case where four >> in the death penalty case where four human beings have horrifically been human beings have horrifically been human beings have horrifically been killed in a tragic tragic tragic crime.

killed in a tragic tragic tragic crime. killed in a tragic tragic tragic crime. In my opinion, that's what a society In my opinion, that's what a society In my opinion, that's what a society does. That's what we as uh Yes, those does. That's what we as uh Yes, those does. That's what we as uh Yes, those are important questions if you ask me. are important questions if you ask me. are important questions if you ask me. >> Yeah. So, do you think Brian Cobberger >> Yeah. So, do you think Brian Cobberger >> Yeah. So, do you think Brian Cobberger will ever sit down and talk with anyone? will ever sit down and talk with anyone? will ever sit down and talk with anyone? >> I believe he will not. But what do I >> I believe he will not. But what do I >> I believe he will not. But what do I know? I you know, in this book I I talk know? I you know, in this book I I talk know? I you know, in this book I I talk about things that I can look at as fact. about things that I can look at as fact. about things that I can look at as fact. I have no basis to make an opinion. I I I have no basis to make an opinion. I I I have no basis to make an opinion. I I don't don't don't >> Of course not. None of us do. That's a >> Of course not. None of us do. That's a >> Of course not. None of us do. That's a total, you know, shot in the dark. Um total, you know, shot in the dark. Um total, you know, shot in the dark. Um >> but he's never opened his mouth about >> but he's never opened his mouth about >> but he's never opened his mouth about anything ever. That's why the initial anything ever. That's why the initial anything ever. That's why the initial the initial plea he didn't even enter a the initial plea he didn't even enter a the initial plea he didn't even enter a not-uilty plea in his own words. So I not-uilty plea in his own words. So I not-uilty plea in his own words. So I would say it's unlikely. would say it's unlikely. would say it's unlikely. >> Yeah, I think so too. I think so too. >> Yeah, I think so too. I think so too. >> Yeah, I think so too. I think so too. But I mean do you I'm trying to figure But I mean do you I'm trying to figure But I mean do you I'm trying to figure out and look people will take plea deals out and look people will take plea deals out and look people will take plea deals even though they could be innocent. even though they could be innocent. even though they could be innocent. Highly [snorts] unlikely possible. Highly [snorts] unlikely possible. Highly [snorts] unlikely possible. >> This is not a book about wrongful >> This is not a book about wrongful >> This is not a book about wrongful conviction. This is a book that says conviction. This is a book that says conviction. This is a book that says this is the way the criminal justice this is the way the criminal justice this is the way the criminal justice system works. This is what you don't system works. This is what you don't system works. This is what you don't know and this is uh why we should ask know and this is uh why we should ask know and this is uh why we should ask these questions.

these questions. these questions. >> Why do you title the book broken plea? >> Why do you title the book broken plea? >> Why do you title the book broken plea? >> Because I think it is broken. I think >> Because I think it is broken. I think >> Because I think it is broken. I think it's broken from a different from it's broken from a different from it's broken from a different from different angles. Um for the questions different angles. Um for the questions different angles. Um for the questions the the things that we just discussed, the the things that we just discussed, the the things that we just discussed, right? And because right? And because right? And because it just it seems frail to me why he made it just it seems frail to me why he made it just it seems frail to me why he made that decision. I don't know. Did he make that decision. I don't know. Did he make that decision. I don't know. Did he make it because he committed the crimes? it because he committed the crimes? it because he committed the crimes? We have to assume that's the case. He We have to assume that's the case. He We have to assume that's the case. He stood up and he said he committed those stood up and he said he committed those stood up and he said he committed those crimes. He's a grown man, 27 years old, crimes. He's a grown man, 27 years old, crimes. He's a grown man, 27 years old, well educated, knew the case, and he well educated, knew the case, and he well educated, knew the case, and he said, "I did it." I'm not disputing that said, "I did it." I'm not disputing that said, "I did it." I'm not disputing that at all. But the plea is broken in a lot at all. But the plea is broken in a lot at all. But the plea is broken in a lot of ways because nothing adds up. So much of ways because nothing adds up. So much of ways because nothing adds up. So much of this case does not add up. And that's of this case does not add up. And that's of this case does not add up. And that's why I that's why I chose that title. why I that's why I chose that title. why I that's why I chose that title. If there's anything you could get your If there's anything you could get your If there's anything you could get your hands on hands on hands on uh as far as either evidence or a uh as far as either evidence or a uh as far as either evidence or a record, what would it be? record, what would it be? record, what would it be? >> I don't know that that exists. Um but I >> I don't know that that exists. Um but I >> I don't know that that exists. Um but I would want I there was I I mentioned in would want I there was I I mentioned in would want I there was I I mentioned in the book that Dylan Mortonson somebody the book that Dylan Mortonson somebody the book that Dylan Mortonson somebody said in an interview that Dylan said in an interview that Dylan said in an interview that Dylan Mortonson had an Alexis device in her Mortonson had an Alexis device in her Mortonson had an Alexis device in her room which was never found or entered room which was never found or entered room which was never found or entered into evidence. If there was something into evidence. If there was something into evidence. If there was something accidentally the a ring cam, um any kind accidentally the a ring cam, um any kind accidentally the a ring cam, um any kind of accidental overhearer surveillance, a of accidental overhearer surveillance, a of accidental overhearer surveillance, a ring cam, an Alexis, uh somebody left ring cam, an Alexis, uh somebody left ring cam, an Alexis, uh somebody left their phone on record, anything that their phone on record, anything that their phone on record, anything that would have documented some aspect of would have documented some aspect of would have documented some aspect of what happened in that house that what happened in that house that what happened in that house that morning, that would be priceless, of morning, that would be priceless, of morning, that would be priceless, of course, but we wouldn't be having this course, but we wouldn't be having this course, but we wouldn't be having this conversation if that happened.

conversation if that happened. conversation if that happened. >> I don't think that exists. >> I don't think that exists. >> I don't think that exists. >> Well, uh nobody's found Yeah. to the >> Well, uh nobody's found Yeah. to the >> Well, uh nobody's found Yeah. to the best of my knowledge, it does not exist. best of my knowledge, it does not exist. best of my knowledge, it does not exist. Yeah. Wow. Fascinating. Really Yeah. Wow. Fascinating. Really Yeah. Wow. Fascinating. Really fascinating conversation. Um that you've fascinating conversation. Um that you've fascinating conversation. Um that you've done an awful lot of work and I you know done an awful lot of work and I you know done an awful lot of work and I you know when you go through massive amounts of when you go through massive amounts of when you go through massive amounts of files and you live with a case for such files and you live with a case for such files and you live with a case for such a long time as an investigator, not you a long time as an investigator, not you a long time as an investigator, not you know your head goes in a hundred know your head goes in a hundred know your head goes in a hundred different directions sometimes and you different directions sometimes and you different directions sometimes and you um have so much of the information and um have so much of the information and um have so much of the information and and stuff that never makes it even into and stuff that never makes it even into and stuff that never makes it even into the book. It's like, you know, it's a the book. It's like, you know, it's a the book. It's like, you know, it's a runaway train inside your head. I mean, runaway train inside your head. I mean, runaway train inside your head. I mean, that's how I would look at it. that's how I would look at it. that's how I would look at it. >> Well, it's a runaway, but I'm very >> Well, it's a runaway, but I'm very >> Well, it's a runaway, but I'm very methodical. I'm that guy where I know methodical. I'm that guy where I know methodical. I'm that guy where I know everything within a quarter inch on my everything within a quarter inch on my everything within a quarter inch on my desk and everything else. But look, I I desk and everything else. But look, I I desk and everything else. But look, I I started out as a newspaper reporter and started out as a newspaper reporter and started out as a newspaper reporter and I covered a police beat on the daily I covered a police beat on the daily I covered a police beat on the daily newspaper. I've written for the New York newspaper. I've written for the New York newspaper. I've written for the New York Times. I was an I was a uh television Times. I was an I was a uh television Times. I was an I was a uh television shows on on NBC and I was an FBI agent. shows on on NBC and I was an FBI agent. shows on on NBC and I was an FBI agent. So, I've spent most of my life working So, I've spent most of my life working So, I've spent most of my life working at very detailed analysis of complex at very detailed analysis of complex at very detailed analysis of complex situations. I was a speech writer on situations. I was a speech writer on situations. I was a speech writer on Capitol Hill and my boss would turn a Capitol Hill and my boss would turn a Capitol Hill and my boss would turn a 5,000page appropriations bill into a 5,000page appropriations bill into a 5,000page appropriations bill into a news release for, you know, for a news release for, you know, for a news release for, you know, for a newspaper. Uh, my whole life I've worked newspaper. Uh, my whole life I've worked newspaper. Uh, my whole life I've worked at jobs where I analyze lots of at jobs where I analyze lots of at jobs where I analyze lots of information and turned it into something information and turned it into something information and turned it into something manageable. So, that part of this case manageable. So, that part of this case manageable. So, that part of this case was easy for me or not easy, not easy.

was easy for me or not easy, not easy. was easy for me or not easy, not easy. That part of it was manageable for me That part of it was manageable for me That part of it was manageable for me because that's the way my brain works. because that's the way my brain works. because that's the way my brain works. >> Wow. Well, congratulations on getting >> Wow. Well, congratulations on getting >> Wow. Well, congratulations on getting the book published because, you know, the book published because, you know, the book published because, you know, this is it's it's not easy. It's a lot this is it's it's not easy. It's a lot this is it's it's not easy. It's a lot of work. It is a tremendous amount of of work. It is a tremendous amount of of work. It is a tremendous amount of work. The book again is Broken Plea: The work. The book again is Broken Plea: The work. The book again is Broken Plea: The Explosive Search for Truth Behind the Explosive Search for Truth Behind the Explosive Search for Truth Behind the Idaho Murders. Chris, it's been a real Idaho Murders. Chris, it's been a real Idaho Murders. Chris, it's been a real pleasure talking to you. I We needed a pleasure talking to you. I We needed a pleasure talking to you. I We needed a few more hours for this conversation few more hours for this conversation few more hours for this conversation >> and I'm a big fan uh outside of this and >> and I'm a big fan uh outside of this and >> and I'm a big fan uh outside of this and I was very excited to talk to you. We I was very excited to talk to you. We I was very excited to talk to you. We had limited time. We hit a lot of big had limited time. We hit a lot of big had limited time. We hit a lot of big topics, enough to get people yelling topics, enough to get people yelling topics, enough to get people yelling about what about this and what about about what about this and what about about what about this and what about that. So, um thank you for what you do. that. So, um thank you for what you do. that. So, um thank you for what you do. >> Oh, we have great yellers. We have but >> Oh, we have great yellers. We have but >> Oh, we have great yellers. We have but we have a wonderful discussion on we have a wonderful discussion on we have a wonderful discussion on YouTube. It's a very vibrant community YouTube. It's a very vibrant community YouTube. It's a very vibrant community and you're right and I thank you for and you're right and I thank you for and you're right and I thank you for recognizing how so many of our loyal um recognizing how so many of our loyal um recognizing how so many of our loyal um listeners and viewers really are very listeners and viewers really are very listeners and viewers really are very well educated on the cases that we well educated on the cases that we well educated on the cases that we discuss. There's always multiple people discuss. There's always multiple people discuss. There's always multiple people who point out things either that I who point out things either that I who point out things either that I didn't see, didn't ask, and I am so didn't see, didn't ask, and I am so didn't see, didn't ask, and I am so appreciative of that and we do it in a appreciative of that and we do it in a appreciative of that and we do it in a really respectful manner. And so I really respectful manner. And so I really respectful manner. And so I really can't wait to hear what everyone really can't wait to hear what everyone really can't wait to hear what everyone thinks about this. Um it's a great thinks about this. Um it's a great thinks about this. Um it's a great conversation. I just conversation. I just conversation. I just >> and I love the modern nature of true >> and I love the modern nature of true >> and I love the modern nature of true crime community. I mean we're doing crime community. I mean we're doing crime community. I mean we're doing things that just haven't occurred in the things that just haven't occurred in the things that just haven't occurred in the past. So I I'm a huge advocate of what past. So I I'm a huge advocate of what past. So I I'm a huge advocate of what you do.

you do. you do. >> Yeah. Well, thank you. I I it's really >> Yeah. Well, thank you. I I it's really >> Yeah. Well, thank you. I I it's really about all the people in this massive about all the people in this massive about all the people in this massive community of ours. And you know, I also community of ours. And you know, I also community of ours. And you know, I also think even though we can see everything think even though we can see everything think even though we can see everything perhaps and maybe have the data in front perhaps and maybe have the data in front perhaps and maybe have the data in front of us, sometimes it's just a different of us, sometimes it's just a different of us, sometimes it's just a different set of eyes. And that's what I think set of eyes. And that's what I think set of eyes. And that's what I think this community is about, a different set this community is about, a different set this community is about, a different set of eyes looking at it and you're like, of eyes looking at it and you're like, of eyes looking at it and you're like, hm, well, that's an interesting hm, well, that's an interesting hm, well, that's an interesting question. question. question. >> Well, I'll say you can look at this >> Well, I'll say you can look at this >> Well, I'll say you can look at this podcast and say, well, I say this, you podcast and say, well, I say this, you podcast and say, well, I say this, you know, I wasn't clear, whatever. I would know, I wasn't clear, whatever. I would know, I wasn't clear, whatever. I would say, look, I'm trying to talk about the say, look, I'm trying to talk about the say, look, I'm trying to talk about the details that I convey specifically, details that I convey specifically, details that I convey specifically, methodically, and in fact, fact-based methodically, and in fact, fact-based methodically, and in fact, fact-based manner within this book. So you can talk manner within this book. So you can talk manner within this book. So you can talk and say I didn't get something right in and say I didn't get something right in and say I didn't get something right in the book but we're just talking about the book but we're just talking about the book but we're just talking about the book and people and information in the book and people and information in the book and people and information in this book is not available any place this book is not available any place this book is not available any place else. I use specific documents and else. I use specific documents and else. I use specific documents and testimony and transcripts and things. So testimony and transcripts and things. So testimony and transcripts and things. So I would say before you make a judgment I would say before you make a judgment I would say before you make a judgment look at read it and then and then look at read it and then and then look at read it and then and then generate the discussion. generate the discussion. generate the discussion. >> Well thank you. Um I hope you all do >> Well thank you. Um I hope you all do >> Well thank you. Um I hope you all do that. Uh you can do that on our YouTube that. Uh you can do that on our YouTube that. Uh you can do that on our YouTube page also. You can find everything that page also. You can find everything that page also. You can find everything that we do on social media at my true crime we do on social media at my true crime we do on social media at my true crime news. Oh, hold on, Chris. Before we say news. Oh, hold on, Chris. Before we say news. Oh, hold on, Chris. Before we say goodbye, do you have any social media goodbye, do you have any social media goodbye, do you have any social media where people can follow you?

where people can follow you? where people can follow you? >> No, I don't. So, people say I'm just >> No, I don't. So, people say I'm just >> No, I don't. So, people say I'm just doing this whatever. I I have zero. doing this whatever. I I have zero. doing this whatever. I I have zero. Well, actually, I think I do have a site Well, actually, I think I do have a site Well, actually, I think I do have a site where you could like a placeholder. where you could like a placeholder. where you could like a placeholder. >> I think I can't get into it, [laughter] >> I think I can't get into it, [laughter] >> I think I can't get into it, [laughter] >> but I can't get into it. So, I know I'm >> but I can't get into it. So, I know I'm >> but I can't get into it. So, I know I'm I'm like the last hold out of that era, I'm like the last hold out of that era, I'm like the last hold out of that era, but I lived in Asia during the social but I lived in Asia during the social but I lived in Asia during the social media thing. When I got back, I never media thing. When I got back, I never media thing. When I got back, I never had social media. I don't rely on it. I had social media. I don't rely on it. I had social media. I don't rely on it. I don't I'm not looking for anything. Um, don't I'm not looking for anything. Um, don't I'm not looking for anything. Um, so I don't unfortunately I don't have so I don't unfortunately I don't have so I don't unfortunately I don't have any social media. No, any social media. No, any social media. No, >> that's interesting because you know >> that's interesting because you know >> that's interesting because you know these days as part of an investigation these days as part of an investigation these days as part of an investigation some it's it's you sometimes find these some it's it's you sometimes find these some it's it's you sometimes find these little bits and pieces on social media. little bits and pieces on social media. little bits and pieces on social media. >> It's Yeah. And and that could some >> It's Yeah. And and that could some >> It's Yeah. And and that could some person can write that book. That's not person can write that book. That's not person can write that book. That's not your book. your book. your book. >> I got the case file and I looked at the >> I got the case file and I looked at the >> I got the case file and I looked at the data based on my life in the FBI. I data based on my life in the FBI. I data based on my life in the FBI. I didn't look at anything. the podcast, didn't look at anything. the podcast, didn't look at anything. the podcast, the the videos, the documentaries, the the the videos, the documentaries, the the the videos, the documentaries, the social media. That's you and your social media. That's you and your social media. That's you and your viewers to write the next book about it. viewers to write the next book about it. viewers to write the next book about it. I just wanted to give you the facts as I I just wanted to give you the facts as I I just wanted to give you the facts as I found them found them found them >> and we appreciate that. We appreciate >> and we appreciate that. We appreciate >> and we appreciate that. We appreciate that. Uh you can find me at Anna Gene, that. Uh you can find me at Anna Gene, that. Uh you can find me at Anna Gene, Anna with 1N. Uh remember to subscribe Anna with 1N. Uh remember to subscribe Anna with 1N. Uh remember to subscribe to our newsletter as well at true to our newsletter as well at true to our newsletter as well at true crimenews.com. So until next week, this crimenews.com. So until next week, this crimenews.com. So until next week, this has been a special edition of True Crime has been a special edition of True Crime has been a special edition of True Crime News, the podcast. I'm your host, Anna News, the podcast. I'm your host, Anna News, the podcast. I'm your host, Anna Garcia. Crime never stops, neither do Garcia. Crime never stops, neither do Garcia. Crime never stops, neither do we.