Should D4vd get the death penalty if convicted? | Mom allegedly shoots man hiding under kid’s bed

Hello and welcome to the sidebar Hello and welcome to the sidebar presented by True Crime News taking you presented by True Crime News taking you presented by True Crime News taking you inside the courtrooms of high profile inside the courtrooms of high profile inside the courtrooms of high profile and notorious cases from across the and notorious cases from across the and notorious cases from across the country. I'm your host Joshua Ritter. country. I'm your host Joshua Ritter. country. I'm your host Joshua Ritter. I'm a criminal defense lawyer based in I'm a criminal defense lawyer based in I'm a criminal defense lawyer based in Los Angeles and previously an LA County Los Angeles and previously an LA County Los Angeles and previously an LA County prosecutor for over a decade. We are prosecutor for over a decade. We are prosecutor for over a decade. We are recording this on Wednesday, July 22nd, recording this on Wednesday, July 22nd, recording this on Wednesday, July 22nd, 2026. In this week's episode, a 2026. In this week's episode, a 2026. In this week's episode, a Tennessee mother charged with murder Tennessee mother charged with murder Tennessee mother charged with murder after allegedly shooting a man she found after allegedly shooting a man she found after allegedly shooting a man she found hiding under her 13-year-old daughter's hiding under her 13-year-old daughter's hiding under her 13-year-old daughter's bed. Plus, the woman at the center of a bed. Plus, the woman at the center of a bed. Plus, the woman at the center of a salacious murder plot involving her salacious murder plot involving her salacious murder plot involving her husband and her 15-year-old lover seeks husband and her 15-year-old lover seeks husband and her 15-year-old lover seeks a new trial more than 30 years after her a new trial more than 30 years after her a new trial more than 30 years after her conviction. But first, the preliminary conviction. But first, the preliminary conviction. But first, the preliminary hearing for singer David, who has been hearing for singer David, who has been hearing for singer David, who has been charged with murdering an underage charged with murdering an underage charged with murdering an underage runaway that he allegedly had a sexual runaway that he allegedly had a sexual runaway that he allegedly had a sexual relationship with. Today, we are joined relationship with. Today, we are joined relationship with. Today, we are joined by Jason Goldman, a high-profile by Jason Goldman, a high-profile by Jason Goldman, a high-profile criminal defense attorney and legal criminal defense attorney and legal criminal defense attorney and legal analyst you can catch on multiple analyst you can catch on multiple analyst you can catch on multiple outlets. Jason, welcome my friend. How outlets. Jason, welcome my friend. How outlets. Jason, welcome my friend. How are you? are you? are you? >> Thank you for having me, Josh. I'm >> Thank you for having me, Josh. I'm >> Thank you for having me, Josh. I'm great. How are you? great. How are you? great. How are you? >> I'm doing very well and I'm glad that we >> I'm doing very well and I'm glad that we >> I'm doing very well and I'm glad that we have a criminal defense attorney on to have a criminal defense attorney on to have a criminal defense attorney on to talk to us today because some of these talk to us today because some of these talk to us today because some of these issues are a little nuanced issues are a little nuanced issues are a little nuanced and they're very serious cases, and they're very serious cases, and they're very serious cases, especially the first one. So, let's jump especially the first one. So, let's jump especially the first one. So, let's jump right in out of Los Angeles, California, right in out of Los Angeles, California, right in out of Los Angeles, California, my neck of the woods. Singer David was my neck of the woods. Singer David was my neck of the woods. Singer David was back in court for a preliminary hearing back in court for a preliminary hearing back in court for a preliminary hearing as gruesome details in the slaying of as gruesome details in the slaying of as gruesome details in the slaying of Celeste Revis Hernandez revealed to her Celeste Revis Hernandez revealed to her Celeste Revis Hernandez revealed to her family on a and a small pool of family on a and a small pool of family on a and a small pool of onlookers. David, whose legal name is onlookers. David, whose legal name is onlookers. David, whose legal name is David Burke, is charged with murder and David Burke, is charged with murder and David Burke, is charged with murder and the continuous sexual abuse of a child

the continuous sexual abuse of a child the continuous sexual abuse of a child under the age of 14, along with unlawful under the age of 14, along with unlawful under the age of 14, along with unlawful mutilation of human remains in the death mutilation of human remains in the death mutilation of human remains in the death of Revis. The victim's mutilated remains of Revis. The victim's mutilated remains of Revis. The victim's mutilated remains were discovered in a Tesla registered to were discovered in a Tesla registered to were discovered in a Tesla registered to Burke back in September of last year, Burke back in September of last year, Burke back in September of last year, one day after what would have been her one day after what would have been her one day after what would have been her 15th birthday. Prosecutors claim that 15th birthday. Prosecutors claim that 15th birthday. Prosecutors claim that Burke fatally stabbed Reavis the day Burke fatally stabbed Reavis the day Burke fatally stabbed Reavis the day after the couple had an argument with after the couple had an argument with after the couple had an argument with Reavis allegedly threatening to oust the Reavis allegedly threatening to oust the Reavis allegedly threatening to oust the pair's illicit relationship and Burke pair's illicit relationship and Burke pair's illicit relationship and Burke fearful of the implications on his fearful of the implications on his fearful of the implications on his burgeoning music career. Prosecutors burgeoning music career. Prosecutors burgeoning music career. Prosecutors began to lay out their case this week as began to lay out their case this week as began to lay out their case this week as a judge determines if there's enough a judge determines if there's enough a judge determines if there's enough probable cause to move forward to trial. probable cause to move forward to trial. probable cause to move forward to trial. Evidence included graphic photos of Evidence included graphic photos of Evidence included graphic photos of Reavis's body, which drew strong Reavis's body, which drew strong Reavis's body, which drew strong reactions from her family in the reactions from her family in the reactions from her family in the courtroom. Additional exhibits included courtroom. Additional exhibits included courtroom. Additional exhibits included allegations that Burke purchased items allegations that Burke purchased items allegations that Burke purchased items to dismember and dispose of her body to dismember and dispose of her body to dismember and dispose of her body online, including a shovel, chainsaws, online, including a shovel, chainsaws, online, including a shovel, chainsaws, and a body bag, along with an and a body bag, along with an and a body bag, along with an inflatable pool to contain her blood. inflatable pool to contain her blood. inflatable pool to contain her blood. While no cameras or recording devices While no cameras or recording devices While no cameras or recording devices are allowed inside the courtroom, 10 are allowed inside the courtroom, 10 are allowed inside the courtroom, 10 members of the public will be allowed to members of the public will be allowed to members of the public will be allowed to view the proceedings each day to view the proceedings each day to view the proceedings each day to determined determined determined via lottery at the courthouse. The via lottery at the courthouse. The via lottery at the courthouse. The preliminary hearing is expected to last preliminary hearing is expected to last preliminary hearing is expected to last through the week and we will continue to through the week and we will continue to through the week and we will continue to keep you updated as this case moves keep you updated as this case moves keep you updated as this case moves forward. Jason, just about one of the forward. Jason, just about one of the forward. Jason, just about one of the most horrific and heartbreaking cases most horrific and heartbreaking cases most horrific and heartbreaking cases you can imagine, but explain to us a you can imagine, but explain to us a you can imagine, but explain to us a little bit exactly what a preliminary little bit exactly what a preliminary little bit exactly what a preliminary hearing is for our listeners so they hearing is for our listeners so they hearing is for our listeners so they understand and then why would it be

understand and then why would it be understand and then why would it be necessary, in your opinion, to include necessary, in your opinion, to include necessary, in your opinion, to include so much graphic evidence at this stage? so much graphic evidence at this stage? so much graphic evidence at this stage? >> Yeah, well, I I think first and foremost >> Yeah, well, I I think first and foremost >> Yeah, well, I I think first and foremost just to to educate the listeners, a just to to educate the listeners, a just to to educate the listeners, a preliminary hearing obviously takes preliminary hearing obviously takes preliminary hearing obviously takes place in California. Some other states, place in California. Some other states, place in California. Some other states, unfortunately, in my state of New York unfortunately, in my state of New York unfortunately, in my state of New York we don't have one, but it's a way to we don't have one, but it's a way to we don't have one, but it's a way to just establish that there's enough to go just establish that there's enough to go just establish that there's enough to go forward. It's not about guilt or forward. It's not about guilt or forward. It's not about guilt or innocence or someone being guilty or not innocence or someone being guilty or not innocence or someone being guilty or not guilty. It's to show, quite frankly, the guilty. It's to show, quite frankly, the guilty. It's to show, quite frankly, the court that's presiding over the case court that's presiding over the case court that's presiding over the case that there's enough evidence to move that there's enough evidence to move that there's enough evidence to move forward to the next stages and forward to the next stages and forward to the next stages and ultimately head towards a trial. So, it ultimately head towards a trial. So, it ultimately head towards a trial. So, it establishes evidence, it establishes a establishes evidence, it establishes a establishes evidence, it establishes a record, Um, it establishes that again record, Um, it establishes that again record, Um, it establishes that again that there's enough to at least maintain that there's enough to at least maintain that there's enough to at least maintain the charges right now. the charges right now. the charges right now. >> What do they do in New York? Is it all >> What do they do in New York? Is it all >> What do they do in New York? Is it all by indictment, grand jury? by indictment, grand jury? by indictment, grand jury? >> It's It's It's all by indictment. Uh, >> It's It's It's all by indictment. Uh, >> It's It's It's all by indictment. Uh, there technically is a statute that does there technically is a statute that does there technically is a statute that does allow for a preliminary hearing. Uh, allow for a preliminary hearing. Uh, allow for a preliminary hearing. Uh, there are some interesting stuff there are some interesting stuff there are some interesting stuff happening during COVID with some issues happening during COVID with some issues happening during COVID with some issues with getting grand juries impaneled, but with getting grand juries impaneled, but with getting grand juries impaneled, but 99.999% 99.999% 99.999% of the time it's an indictment and we of the time it's an indictment and we of the time it's an indictment and we don't have a preliminary hearing. So, we don't have a preliminary hearing. So, we don't have a preliminary hearing. So, we don't have a shot at uh having live don't have a shot at uh having live don't have a shot at uh having live testimony. Obviously, there are testimony. Obviously, there are testimony. Obviously, there are suppression hearings at some point in suppression hearings at some point in suppression hearings at some point in time close to trial where we can examine time close to trial where we can examine time close to trial where we can examine constitutional issues, but nothing like constitutional issues, but nothing like constitutional issues, but nothing like this. Nothing like a preview of the this. Nothing like a preview of the this. Nothing like a preview of the evidence in the trial as a whole. It's evidence in the trial as a whole. It's evidence in the trial as a whole. It's really uh my understanding specific of really uh my understanding specific of really uh my understanding specific of course to California and I I I believe course to California and I I I believe course to California and I I I believe some other states have it as well.

some other states have it as well. some other states have it as well. >> I'm curious about this and I don't want >> I'm curious about this and I don't want >> I'm curious about this and I don't want to get too much into the weeds because to get too much into the weeds because to get too much into the weeds because it is different. I'm used to a prelim um it is different. I'm used to a prelim um it is different. I'm used to a prelim um process. A lot of states have it. I just process. A lot of states have it. I just process. A lot of states have it. I just came from Utah where they had the prelim came from Utah where they had the prelim came from Utah where they had the prelim of uh Tyler Robinson. So, it you know, of uh Tyler Robinson. So, it you know, of uh Tyler Robinson. So, it you know, they it's it's kind of pick your poison, they it's it's kind of pick your poison, they it's it's kind of pick your poison, I guess, uh depending on the state how I guess, uh depending on the state how I guess, uh depending on the state how they want to do it, but even on the they want to do it, but even on the they want to do it, but even on the low-level kind of straightforward low-level kind of straightforward low-level kind of straightforward felonies, do those all still go in front felonies, do those all still go in front felonies, do those all still go in front of a grand jury? of a grand jury? of a grand jury? >> All in front of a grand jury. Um, >> All in front of a grand jury. Um, >> All in front of a grand jury. Um, straightforward indictment. So, you straightforward indictment. So, you straightforward indictment. So, you know, for better or for worse and know, for better or for worse and know, for better or for worse and usually for worse, there's not too much usually for worse, there's not too much usually for worse, there's not too much of a record heading into it. Obviously, of a record heading into it. Obviously, of a record heading into it. Obviously, we're entitled to uh the grand jury we're entitled to uh the grand jury we're entitled to uh the grand jury minutes in New York state court. So, we minutes in New York state court. So, we minutes in New York state court. So, we do get the transcript and that, you do get the transcript and that, you do get the transcript and that, you know, adds a layer of impeachment know, adds a layer of impeachment know, adds a layer of impeachment sometimes, but uh no cross-examination, sometimes, but uh no cross-examination, sometimes, but uh no cross-examination, no no second bite at the apple no no second bite at the apple no no second bite at the apple unfortunately, no deposition, uh no unfortunately, no deposition, uh no unfortunately, no deposition, uh no nothing until live trial essentially. nothing until live trial essentially. nothing until live trial essentially. >> One uh referencing the Robinson case >> One uh referencing the Robinson case >> One uh referencing the Robinson case again, one of the big contentions that again, one of the big contentions that again, one of the big contentions that the defense had in that case is that the defense had in that case is that the defense had in that case is that during the prelim they objected to a lot during the prelim they objected to a lot during the prelim they objected to a lot of the evidence as as feeling like it of the evidence as as feeling like it of the evidence as as feeling like it would poison the jury pool. And I'm would poison the jury pool. And I'm would poison the jury pool. And I'm curious, curious, curious, do you think that's a concern here in do you think that's a concern here in do you think that's a concern here in this case or in any case really? I mean, this case or in any case really? I mean, this case or in any case really? I mean, they're putting on fairly graphic they're putting on fairly graphic they're putting on fairly graphic evidence. Is that something to be evidence. Is that something to be evidence. Is that something to be worried about?

worried about? worried about? >> You know, I I gave it some thought and I >> You know, I I gave it some thought and I >> You know, I I gave it some thought and I certainly thought about it as it certainly thought about it as it certainly thought about it as it pertains to pertains to pertains to the case of David that we're speaking of the case of David that we're speaking of the case of David that we're speaking of right now. And initially, you would right now. And initially, you would right now. And initially, you would think that it's very prejudicial and think that it's very prejudicial and think that it's very prejudicial and very very very concerning for the concerning for the concerning for the the defense. the defense. the defense. That being said, That being said, That being said, there's something that takes place when there's something that takes place when there's something that takes place when a government over tries or over promises a government over tries or over promises a government over tries or over promises their case. And I I was kind of their case. And I I was kind of their case. And I I was kind of re-examining a little bit of the the P. re-examining a little bit of the the P. re-examining a little bit of the the P. Diddy case recently. And there was so Diddy case recently. And there was so Diddy case recently. And there was so much salacious much salacious much salacious evidence and things that got leaked out evidence and things that got leaked out evidence and things that got leaked out to the media and things pre-trial that I to the media and things pre-trial that I to the media and things pre-trial that I think the jury went in expecting a whole think the jury went in expecting a whole think the jury went in expecting a whole lot of stuff that ultimately did not lot of stuff that ultimately did not lot of stuff that ultimately did not come out. And the case was almost over come out. And the case was almost over come out. And the case was almost over tried before it even made its way to a tried before it even made its way to a tried before it even made its way to a jury. So, jury. So, jury. So, in one regard, you know, the gruesome in one regard, you know, the gruesome in one regard, you know, the gruesome pictures which maybe could be limited pictures which maybe could be limited pictures which maybe could be limited later on at actual trial. later on at actual trial. later on at actual trial. Um, Um, Um, or I read something about, you know, or I read something about, you know, or I read something about, you know, prosecutors putting in a brief that prosecutors putting in a brief that prosecutors putting in a brief that David had watched David had watched David had watched the victim bleed out on the street. the victim bleed out on the street. the victim bleed out on the street. Things that might not make it into a Things that might not make it into a Things that might not make it into a trial. It's almost like over promising trial. It's almost like over promising trial. It's almost like over promising in your opening statement. The jury in your opening statement. The jury in your opening statement. The jury might get there and say, "I heard all might get there and say, "I heard all might get there and say, "I heard all these things or I saw all these things these things or I saw all these things these things or I saw all these things in the paper. This case isn't about in the paper. This case isn't about in the paper. This case isn't about that." And it could be a backdoor way, that." And it could be a backdoor way, that." And it could be a backdoor way, quite frankly, for the defense to, quite frankly, for the defense to, quite frankly, for the defense to, you know, be the ones that might be more you know, be the ones that might be more you know, be the ones that might be more credible heading into the case. I know credible heading into the case. I know credible heading into the case. I know that that took place. Again, we're that that took place. Again, we're that that took place. Again, we're talking about federal court with the talking about federal court with the talking about federal court with the the P. Diddy case, but that was really the P. Diddy case, but that was really the P. Diddy case, but that was really on display there where so much was on display there where so much was on display there where so much was leaked out and the jurors expected so leaked out and the jurors expected so leaked out and the jurors expected so much and then it got to trial and it much and then it got to trial and it much and then it got to trial and it wasn't about that. It was about, you wasn't about that. It was about, you wasn't about that. It was about, you know, things that were much different.

know, things that were much different. know, things that were much different. The limine rulings went in favor of the The limine rulings went in favor of the The limine rulings went in favor of the defense and it was a much more tailored defense and it was a much more tailored defense and it was a much more tailored down version of things. So, that's one down version of things. So, that's one down version of things. So, that's one way to look at it from a defense way to look at it from a defense way to look at it from a defense attorney's lens, but obviously, we're attorney's lens, but obviously, we're attorney's lens, but obviously, we're all very cautious about poisoning a jury all very cautious about poisoning a jury all very cautious about poisoning a jury pool with, pool with, pool with, you know, on the opposite side, things you know, on the opposite side, things you know, on the opposite side, things coming in that the jury should never see coming in that the jury should never see coming in that the jury should never see or hear, the potential jury should never or hear, the potential jury should never or hear, the potential jury should never see or hear. That's the reason why we see or hear. That's the reason why we see or hear. That's the reason why we have, you know, have, you know, have, you know, rulings ahead of trial about what's rulings ahead of trial about what's rulings ahead of trial about what's going to come in or not. So, going to come in or not. So, going to come in or not. So, >> Speaking of the defense, the defense in >> Speaking of the defense, the defense in >> Speaking of the defense, the defense in this case was very aggressive early on this case was very aggressive early on this case was very aggressive early on about saying they are not afraid. They about saying they are not afraid. They about saying they are not afraid. They want their trial. They in fact initially want their trial. They in fact initially want their trial. They in fact initially did not waive time on the prelim. For did not waive time on the prelim. For did not waive time on the prelim. For our listeners to understand, in our listeners to understand, in our listeners to understand, in California, if the defense doesn't waive California, if the defense doesn't waive California, if the defense doesn't waive time, they have to prelim on a prelim no time, they have to prelim on a prelim no time, they have to prelim on a prelim no matter how complex the case within 10 matter how complex the case within 10 matter how complex the case within 10 days of that person's arraignment. So, days of that person's arraignment. So, days of that person's arraignment. So, that's lightning quick when it comes to that's lightning quick when it comes to that's lightning quick when it comes to the law. Something that the defense has the law. Something that the defense has the law. Something that the defense has an advantage in that they kind of an advantage in that they kind of an advantage in that they kind of control the clock. control the clock. control the clock. Here, even though they did waive some Here, even though they did waive some Here, even though they did waive some time, we're still at prelim within weeks time, we're still at prelim within weeks time, we're still at prelim within weeks of him being of him being of him being arraigned on a potential death penalty arraigned on a potential death penalty arraigned on a potential death penalty case. One, do you think that is a little case. One, do you think that is a little case. One, do you think that is a little fast? And two, do you think this fast? And two, do you think this fast? And two, do you think this strategy of the defense and kind of strategy of the defense and kind of strategy of the defense and kind of saying, "Let's get this in front of a a saying, "Let's get this in front of a a saying, "Let's get this in front of a a judge" might have backfired on them a judge" might have backfired on them a judge" might have backfired on them a little bit?

little bit? little bit? >> I I don't know if it backfired because I >> I I don't know if it backfired because I >> I I don't know if it backfired because I don't know if things were going to don't know if things were going to don't know if things were going to necessarily get better for them if the necessarily get better for them if the necessarily get better for them if the case was extended out. I I think in case was extended out. I I think in case was extended out. I I think in their mind and I I you know, it's a bit their mind and I I you know, it's a bit their mind and I I you know, it's a bit of speculation, but of speculation, but of speculation, but I think that they thought that there I think that they thought that there I think that they thought that there were some issues with how the police were some issues with how the police were some issues with how the police investigated the case. There were some investigated the case. There were some investigated the case. There were some interesting delays between the discovery interesting delays between the discovery interesting delays between the discovery of the body and the autopsy report and of the body and the autopsy report and of the body and the autopsy report and the autopsy findings and the arrest. And the autopsy findings and the arrest. And the autopsy findings and the arrest. And I think that they thought that this I think that they thought that this I think that they thought that this might get butchered if it was handled might get butchered if it was handled might get butchered if it was handled quickly or in the wrong way or rushed to quickly or in the wrong way or rushed to quickly or in the wrong way or rushed to a certain extent, right? They took their a certain extent, right? They took their a certain extent, right? They took their time more so than usual. And time more so than usual. And time more so than usual. And you know, the conversation may have you know, the conversation may have you know, the conversation may have been, "Look, let's let's put our foot on been, "Look, let's let's put our foot on been, "Look, let's let's put our foot on the gas. Let's make them do this in 10 the gas. Let's make them do this in 10 the gas. Let's make them do this in 10 days or in or in a month or two as days or in or in a month or two as days or in or in a month or two as opposed to really stretching it out. opposed to really stretching it out. opposed to really stretching it out. And and see if we can catch them either And and see if we can catch them either And and see if we can catch them either lacking in further investigation cuz lacking in further investigation cuz lacking in further investigation cuz I've had cases before I've had cases before I've had cases before certainly in federal court where at the certainly in federal court where at the certainly in federal court where at the very beginning the client is saying, "I very beginning the client is saying, "I very beginning the client is saying, "I don't want to waive speedy trial. Let's don't want to waive speedy trial. Let's don't want to waive speedy trial. Let's not And you know what? They were right not And you know what? They were right not And you know what? They were right because sometimes when you waive it, because sometimes when you waive it, because sometimes when you waive it, what happens? There's additional phone what happens? There's additional phone what happens? There's additional phone search warrants, there's additional The search warrants, there's additional The search warrants, there's additional The investigation's always ongoing, right?

investigation's always ongoing, right? investigation's always ongoing, right? And 2 years later And 2 years later And 2 years later a lot of these cases do get a lot of these cases do get a lot of these cases do get strengthened. Um you know, sometimes strengthened. Um you know, sometimes strengthened. Um you know, sometimes justice delayed is justice denied, but justice delayed is justice denied, but justice delayed is justice denied, but in a high-profile case with a lot of in a high-profile case with a lot of in a high-profile case with a lot of resources, the prosecutors and the resources, the prosecutors and the resources, the prosecutors and the police are going to figure it out. So I police are going to figure it out. So I police are going to figure it out. So I understand and appreciate the defense's understand and appreciate the defense's understand and appreciate the defense's mindset here of saying, "Let's try to mindset here of saying, "Let's try to mindset here of saying, "Let's try to catch them before they dot all their catch them before they dot all their catch them before they dot all their eyes and cross all their T's and the eyes and cross all their T's and the eyes and cross all their T's and the prelim might not be as clean and they prelim might not be as clean and they prelim might not be as clean and they might not have all these pieces of might not have all these pieces of might not have all these pieces of evidence if we, you know, stretch it for evidence if we, you know, stretch it for evidence if we, you know, stretch it for months or even a year, quite frankly." months or even a year, quite frankly." months or even a year, quite frankly." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. All right, I'm going to put you on the All right, I'm going to put you on the All right, I'm going to put you on the spot for a second. Not to wax too spot for a second. Not to wax too spot for a second. Not to wax too philosophical about all of this, but I philosophical about all of this, but I philosophical about all of this, but I don't know your your don't know your your don't know your your feelings on uh the death penalty, feelings on uh the death penalty, feelings on uh the death penalty, whether you're for or against it, you whether you're for or against it, you whether you're for or against it, you know, politically, morally, religiously, know, politically, morally, religiously, know, politically, morally, religiously, put all of that aside. It's on the put all of that aside. It's on the put all of that aside. It's on the books. books. books. Uh is this in your view a death penalty Uh is this in your view a death penalty Uh is this in your view a death penalty case? So we've got a young woman who is case? So we've got a young woman who is case? So we've got a young woman who is sexually exploited. When she decided she sexually exploited. When she decided she sexually exploited. When she decided she was going to come forward about that, was going to come forward about that, was going to come forward about that, I'm saying if everything that is being I'm saying if everything that is being I'm saying if everything that is being alleged alleged alleged >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> turns out to be true, uh she uh when she >> turns out to be true, uh she uh when she >> turns out to be true, uh she uh when she says she's going to come out with it, he says she's going to come out with it, he says she's going to come out with it, he decides to kill her. Um but he's got no decides to kill her. Um but he's got no decides to kill her. Um but he's got no criminal record and he's a rather young criminal record and he's a rather young criminal record and he's a rather young man. So there's kind of the the uh in a man. So there's kind of the the uh in a man. So there's kind of the the uh in a nutshell version of what they're going nutshell version of what they're going nutshell version of what they're going to be looking at deciding on to pursue to be looking at deciding on to pursue to be looking at deciding on to pursue the death penalty in this case.

the death penalty in this case. the death penalty in this case. >> Yeah, I I I think the only >> Yeah, I I I think the only >> Yeah, I I I think the only part of that that's really kind of part of that that's really kind of part of that that's really kind of weighs on his side in the opposition to weighs on his side in the opposition to weighs on his side in the opposition to death penalty here, you know, you death penalty here, you know, you death penalty here, you know, you mentioned the age and obviously there's mentioned the age and obviously there's mentioned the age and obviously there's a lot of studies, a lot of science, a a lot of studies, a lot of science, a a lot of studies, a lot of science, a lot of mitigation experts, you know, lot of mitigation experts, you know, lot of mitigation experts, you know, which will come into play in terms of which will come into play in terms of which will come into play in terms of how he was developing still. But outside how he was developing still. But outside how he was developing still. But outside of that, when you You look at, you know, of that, when you You look at, you know, of that, when you You look at, you know, the things that you had laid out if the things that you had laid out if the things that you had laid out if taken as true, if proved, if the taken as true, if proved, if the taken as true, if proved, if the evidence supports it at trial and and evidence supports it at trial and and evidence supports it at trial and and pre-trial, I mean, this is in my mind up pre-trial, I mean, this is in my mind up pre-trial, I mean, this is in my mind up there with as gruesome Yeah. as it gets there with as gruesome Yeah. as it gets there with as gruesome Yeah. as it gets in terms of facts, in terms of the way in terms of facts, in terms of the way in terms of facts, in terms of the way something was committed, in terms of the something was committed, in terms of the something was committed, in terms of the cover-up efforts. I mean, this is up cover-up efforts. I mean, this is up cover-up efforts. I mean, this is up there, right? I wasn't in the courtroom, there, right? I wasn't in the courtroom, there, right? I wasn't in the courtroom, obviously, I don't think you were obviously, I don't think you were obviously, I don't think you were either, but I I read about it and I'm either, but I I read about it and I'm either, but I I read about it and I'm taking it as true, the photos that were taking it as true, the photos that were taking it as true, the photos that were displayed out there and kind of what displayed out there and kind of what displayed out there and kind of what scene this was. I mean, this is This is scene this was. I mean, this is This is scene this was. I mean, this is This is not your everyday homicide. And I've not your everyday homicide. And I've not your everyday homicide. And I've looked at a lot of autopsies, and you looked at a lot of autopsies, and you looked at a lot of autopsies, and you have too, and you look at it with a dry have too, and you look at it with a dry have too, and you look at it with a dry eye. This is one of those where you look eye. This is one of those where you look eye. This is one of those where you look at it and you need a few days to, you at it and you need a few days to, you at it and you need a few days to, you know, kind of get your Get get your know, kind of get your Get get your know, kind of get your Get get your appetite back. So, appetite back. So, appetite back. So, this one, you know, politics aside or this one, you know, politics aside or this one, you know, politics aside or feelings aside, I I think he's a feelings aside, I I think he's a feelings aside, I I think he's a candidate, you know, in that that candidate, you know, in that that candidate, you know, in that that district attorney's office right now to district attorney's office right now to district attorney's office right now to say, "If not him, how are we going to, say, "If not him, how are we going to, say, "If not him, how are we going to, you know, prosecute the next guy for a you know, prosecute the next guy for a you know, prosecute the next guy for a death penalty?" I mean, look at the death penalty?" I mean, look at the death penalty?" I mean, look at the facts here if they if they're true. So.

facts here if they if they're true. So. facts here if they if they're true. So. >> Yeah. No, I agree. I I think they're >> Yeah. No, I agree. I I think they're >> Yeah. No, I agree. I I think they're having very serious conversations about having very serious conversations about having very serious conversations about pursuing it because it is about the pursuing it because it is about the pursuing it because it is about the worst of the worst. You know, not only worst of the worst. You know, not only worst of the worst. You know, not only what he did to her afterwards, but just what he did to her afterwards, but just what he did to her afterwards, but just the callousness, if again, all of it is the callousness, if again, all of it is the callousness, if again, all of it is true, the callousness of killing a young true, the callousness of killing a young true, the callousness of killing a young woman just simply because you had been woman just simply because you had been woman just simply because you had been you know, exploiting her and grooming you know, exploiting her and grooming you know, exploiting her and grooming her, and then when she decides to out her, and then when she decides to out her, and then when she decides to out you and that might affect your career, you and that might affect your career, you and that might affect your career, you kill her. It's like I can't think of you kill her. It's like I can't think of you kill her. It's like I can't think of something more heartless and deserving something more heartless and deserving something more heartless and deserving of a of capital punishment. But, of a of capital punishment. But, of a of capital punishment. But, we will continue to watch this one and we will continue to watch this one and we will continue to watch this one and leave it up to them to decide all of leave it up to them to decide all of leave it up to them to decide all of that and keep you all updated as this that and keep you all updated as this that and keep you all updated as this case progresses forward. In the case progresses forward. In the case progresses forward. In the meantime, let's move to Memphis, meantime, let's move to Memphis, meantime, let's move to Memphis, Tennessee, where a mother facing Tennessee, where a mother facing Tennessee, where a mother facing first-degree murder charges allegedly first-degree murder charges allegedly first-degree murder charges allegedly told police, "I did what I had to do" told police, "I did what I had to do" told police, "I did what I had to do" after shooting a 20-year-old man she after shooting a 20-year-old man she after shooting a 20-year-old man she reportedly found hiding beneath her reportedly found hiding beneath her reportedly found hiding beneath her 13-year-old daughter's bed. Police 13-year-old daughter's bed. Police 13-year-old daughter's bed. Police responded to the scene to find Rodarius responded to the scene to find Rodarius responded to the scene to find Rodarius Morton fatally wounded in Kendra Scott's Morton fatally wounded in Kendra Scott's Morton fatally wounded in Kendra Scott's yard with a gunshot wound to the back of yard with a gunshot wound to the back of yard with a gunshot wound to the back of Morton's head. A juvenile said they saw Morton's head. A juvenile said they saw Morton's head. A juvenile said they saw Scott yelling, "Who's in my house?"

Scott yelling, "Who's in my house?" Scott yelling, "Who's in my house?" before entering the residence and before entering the residence and before entering the residence and discovering Morton. According to another discovering Morton. According to another discovering Morton. According to another witness, Morton was invited in through a witness, Morton was invited in through a witness, Morton was invited in through a back door of the home before the back door of the home before the back door of the home before the eventual confrontation that spilled over eventual confrontation that spilled over eventual confrontation that spilled over on the front porch before Morton's on the front porch before Morton's on the front porch before Morton's death. Morton's means of entry and the death. Morton's means of entry and the death. Morton's means of entry and the potential threat he posed to the mother potential threat he posed to the mother potential threat he posed to the mother and her household will likely be pivotal and her household will likely be pivotal and her household will likely be pivotal to Scott's defense as we continue to to Scott's defense as we continue to to Scott's defense as we continue to monitor it moving forward. monitor it moving forward. monitor it moving forward. All right, this one's a tough one All right, this one's a tough one All right, this one's a tough one because I think it's going to be because I think it's going to be because I think it's going to be incredibly fact specific and I don't incredibly fact specific and I don't incredibly fact specific and I don't know if we have all the facts just yet. know if we have all the facts just yet. know if we have all the facts just yet. But, you know, when you first hear the But, you know, when you first hear the But, you know, when you first hear the kind of headline version, "Mother shoots kind of headline version, "Mother shoots kind of headline version, "Mother shoots man hiding under daughter's bed." you man hiding under daughter's bed." you man hiding under daughter's bed." you think to yourself, "Why aren't we think to yourself, "Why aren't we think to yourself, "Why aren't we handing her an award rather than handing her an award rather than handing her an award rather than charging her with a crime?" But, there charging her with a crime?" But, there charging her with a crime?" But, there could be more at play here as to whether could be more at play here as to whether could be more at play here as to whether or not he or not he or not he how he gained entry to that home, if he how he gained entry to that home, if he how he gained entry to that home, if he was invited or not, or what happened. was invited or not, or what happened. was invited or not, or what happened. But, for right now, just kind of tell us But, for right now, just kind of tell us But, for right now, just kind of tell us what issues you think they will be what issues you think they will be what issues you think they will be looking at. Self-defense? Does the home looking at. Self-defense? Does the home looking at. Self-defense? Does the home matter? Does it matter where he's in the matter? Does it matter where he's in the matter? Does it matter where he's in the home? All of that.

home? All of that. home? All of that. >> Yeah, it all matters. And and just to >> Yeah, it all matters. And and just to >> Yeah, it all matters. And and just to open up, I wrote down essentially what open up, I wrote down essentially what open up, I wrote down essentially what you had had started with. I wrote down, you had had started with. I wrote down, you had had started with. I wrote down, you know, street justice or regular you know, street justice or regular you know, street justice or regular justice. And and there's a moral aspect justice. And and there's a moral aspect justice. And and there's a moral aspect to this and, you know, I don't to this and, you know, I don't to this and, you know, I don't necessarily believe in jury necessarily believe in jury necessarily believe in jury nullification, but there's a lot of nullification, but there's a lot of nullification, but there's a lot of individuals that hear the headline and individuals that hear the headline and individuals that hear the headline and maybe even they see what come out of a maybe even they see what come out of a maybe even they see what come out of a trial and they say, "Well, she did the trial and they say, "Well, she did the trial and they say, "Well, she did the right thing even if it's not, you know, right thing even if it's not, you know, right thing even if it's not, you know, textbook self-defense." Putting that textbook self-defense." Putting that textbook self-defense." Putting that aside, um you know, obviously we do need aside, um you know, obviously we do need aside, um you know, obviously we do need more facts. I more facts. I more facts. I you know, I've done a handful of you know, I've done a handful of you know, I've done a handful of self-defense cases. I've sort of built self-defense cases. I've sort of built self-defense cases. I've sort of built out a specialty there and a lot of out a specialty there and a lot of out a specialty there and a lot of minute details can matter. I mean, it minute details can matter. I mean, it minute details can matter. I mean, it doesn't look great in the sense of he doesn't look great in the sense of he doesn't look great in the sense of he shot in the back, right? That's never a shot in the back, right? That's never a shot in the back, right? That's never a great sign for self-defense. He's in the great sign for self-defense. He's in the great sign for self-defense. He's in the yard, he's not in the house anymore. Um yard, he's not in the house anymore. Um yard, he's not in the house anymore. Um for all intents and purposes, he's for all intents and purposes, he's for all intents and purposes, he's attempting or trying to flee and there's attempting or trying to flee and there's attempting or trying to flee and there's no imminent danger to the mother or to no imminent danger to the mother or to no imminent danger to the mother or to the daughter at this point in time. Just the daughter at this point in time. Just the daughter at this point in time. Just from a very clear self-defense aspect. from a very clear self-defense aspect. from a very clear self-defense aspect. Um now but again, now we don't know, Um now but again, now we don't know, Um now but again, now we don't know, right? Was he running out and making right? Was he running out and making right? Was he running out and making threats? Was he potentially reaching threats? Was he potentially reaching threats? Was he potentially reaching into his pocket? And there's a plausible into his pocket? And there's a plausible into his pocket? And there's a plausible argument that he was armed. I've had argument that he was armed. I've had argument that he was armed. I've had trials like that and there's nothing in trials like that and there's nothing in trials like that and there's nothing in the person's pocket, but there's enough the person's pocket, but there's enough the person's pocket, but there's enough reasonable belief that there might be, reasonable belief that there might be, reasonable belief that there might be, you know, self-defense can really turn you know, self-defense can really turn you know, self-defense can really turn um on those types of details. It can um on those types of details. It can um on those types of details. It can turn almost always on the testimony of turn almost always on the testimony of turn almost always on the testimony of the defendant in a self-defense case.

the defendant in a self-defense case. the defendant in a self-defense case. So, a lot more needs to come out. Um So, a lot more needs to come out. Um So, a lot more needs to come out. Um there was one factor one allegation, there was one factor one allegation, there was one factor one allegation, which is not so great, which is which is not so great, which is which is not so great, which is apparently apparently apparently uh apparently the daughter had told law uh apparently the daughter had told law uh apparently the daughter had told law enforcement or told somebody else that enforcement or told somebody else that enforcement or told somebody else that the mom had pre-warned her and said, "If the mom had pre-warned her and said, "If the mom had pre-warned her and said, "If I find him in this house again or if he I find him in this house again or if he I find him in this house again or if he comes over here." Some sort of comes over here." Some sort of comes over here." Some sort of premeditated statement, which is never premeditated statement, which is never premeditated statement, which is never great. Um you know, for self-defense you great. Um you know, for self-defense you great. Um you know, for self-defense you want it to be first-time encounter, want it to be first-time encounter, want it to be first-time encounter, bang-bang situation. We don't know each bang-bang situation. We don't know each bang-bang situation. We don't know each other. We never thought about this. We other. We never thought about this. We other. We never thought about this. We didn't wake up today and say, "If I run didn't wake up today and say, "If I run didn't wake up today and say, "If I run into this person, I'm going to do XYZ." into this person, I'm going to do XYZ." into this person, I'm going to do XYZ." So, for all intents and purposes, So, for all intents and purposes, So, for all intents and purposes, you know, very difficult from what we you know, very difficult from what we you know, very difficult from what we know right now from a classic know right now from a classic know right now from a classic self-defense case. But again, you know, self-defense case. But again, you know, self-defense case. But again, you know, they're interesting defenses and I think they're interesting defenses and I think they're interesting defenses and I think based on where he is in the yard, you based on where he is in the yard, you based on where he is in the yard, you know, what kind of history maybe that know, what kind of history maybe that know, what kind of history maybe that she knew about of his. However, at the she knew about of his. However, at the she knew about of his. However, at the same time, there was a report that he same time, there was a report that he same time, there was a report that he might have uh some mental issues um or might have uh some mental issues um or might have uh some mental issues um or special needs. So, again, that's going special needs. So, again, that's going special needs. So, again, that's going to weigh against the defense here as to weigh against the defense here as to weigh against the defense here as well.

well. well. >> Yeah, like yeah, it it's it >> Yeah, like yeah, it it's it >> Yeah, like yeah, it it's it as as is most self-defense cases, the as as is most self-defense cases, the as as is most self-defense cases, the the facts are so important in helping the facts are so important in helping the facts are so important in helping them assess the reasonableness of the them assess the reasonableness of the them assess the reasonableness of the defendant's actions. So, we're going to defendant's actions. So, we're going to defendant's actions. So, we're going to have to really get a a much better have to really get a a much better have to really get a a much better understanding of what took place here. understanding of what took place here. understanding of what took place here. But you brought up something about how But you brought up something about how But you brought up something about how jurors may react to this not entirely jurors may react to this not entirely jurors may react to this not entirely following the letter of the law. I think following the letter of the law. I think following the letter of the law. I think that's a very real concern for that's a very real concern for that's a very real concern for prosecutors in this case, even if the prosecutors in this case, even if the prosecutors in this case, even if the prosecution is able to say, "Listen, prosecution is able to say, "Listen, prosecution is able to say, "Listen, the guy was fleeing and the the guy was fleeing and the the guy was fleeing and the reasonableness of her actions and her reasonableness of her actions and her reasonableness of her actions and her response in that moment moment and kind response in that moment moment and kind response in that moment moment and kind of splitting hairs, I could see some of splitting hairs, I could see some of splitting hairs, I could see some jurors just saying, "Hey, man, he had it jurors just saying, "Hey, man, he had it jurors just saying, "Hey, man, he had it coming." How do they combat that as a coming." How do they combat that as a coming." How do they combat that as a prosecution team? prosecution team? prosecution team? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I I I think first just >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I I I think first just >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I I I think first just to point out, this is one of these to point out, this is one of these to point out, this is one of these cases, um cases, um cases, um where I I I kind of tell clients, I'm where I I I kind of tell clients, I'm where I I I kind of tell clients, I'm like, "If we get to the gray area, we like, "If we get to the gray area, we like, "If we get to the gray area, we can win from the optics and from the can win from the optics and from the can win from the optics and from the moral standpoint. If we give the jury moral standpoint. If we give the jury moral standpoint. If we give the jury something to hang their hat on in terms something to hang their hat on in terms something to hang their hat on in terms of reasonable doubt, everything else is of reasonable doubt, everything else is of reasonable doubt, everything else is in our favor. Everything else is in our in our favor. Everything else is in our in our favor. Everything else is in our favor in terms of the moral defense or favor in terms of the moral defense or favor in terms of the moral defense or the street justice defense or or, you the street justice defense or or, you the street justice defense or or, you know, what a civilian really wants here.

know, what a civilian really wants here. know, what a civilian really wants here. If we can get there, then as you said, If we can get there, then as you said, If we can get there, then as you said, let's get them to that reasonable doubt. let's get them to that reasonable doubt. let's get them to that reasonable doubt. Okay, it might not be the perfect Okay, it might not be the perfect Okay, it might not be the perfect self-defense case, but they have enough self-defense case, but they have enough self-defense case, but they have enough to go back there and say, 'We're to go back there and say, 'We're to go back there and say, 'We're definitely going to side with her on definitely going to side with her on definitely going to side with her on this situation because we believe in all this situation because we believe in all this situation because we believe in all this other kind of stuff that's clouding this other kind of stuff that's clouding this other kind of stuff that's clouding the case a little bit.' Just to point the case a little bit.' Just to point the case a little bit.' Just to point that out. Um, you know, how do that out. Um, you know, how do that out. Um, you know, how do prosecutors combat it? I I mean, you prosecutors combat it? I I mean, you prosecutors combat it? I I mean, you know, know, know, it is a difficult job. I think a lot it is a difficult job. I think a lot it is a difficult job. I think a lot here, quite frankly, might turn on what here, quite frankly, might turn on what here, quite frankly, might turn on what the relationship was between the the relationship was between the the relationship was between the daughter and the individual. daughter and the individual. daughter and the individual. The reports are making it seem like this The reports are making it seem like this The reports are making it seem like this is is is consensual to a certain extent. Again, consensual to a certain extent. Again, consensual to a certain extent. Again, there might be some statutory issues there might be some statutory issues there might be some statutory issues there, but obviously, look, if this was there, but obviously, look, if this was there, but obviously, look, if this was airing more towards a sexual assault or airing more towards a sexual assault or airing more towards a sexual assault or rape type of situation, rape type of situation, rape type of situation, it's going to be a not guilty. It might it's going to be a not guilty. It might it's going to be a not guilty. It might not even go to trial, quite frankly. No not even go to trial, quite frankly. No not even go to trial, quite frankly. No prosecutor wants to touch that. If this prosecutor wants to touch that. If this prosecutor wants to touch that. If this is is is quote-unquote consent, even though there quote-unquote consent, even though there quote-unquote consent, even though there are some are some are some age issues, you know, prosecutors can age issues, you know, prosecutors can age issues, you know, prosecutors can still kind of play around with this guy still kind of play around with this guy still kind of play around with this guy not being the worst individual of all not being the worst individual of all not being the worst individual of all time and kind of dealing with a victim, time and kind of dealing with a victim, time and kind of dealing with a victim, you know, as they find him, but they you know, as they find him, but they you know, as they find him, but they don't need to get up there and defend a don't need to get up there and defend a don't need to get up there and defend a quote-unquote rapist or someone that's quote-unquote rapist or someone that's quote-unquote rapist or someone that's sexually assaulting a girl and then he's sexually assaulting a girl and then he's sexually assaulting a girl and then he's shot in the back of the head. They can shot in the back of the head. They can shot in the back of the head. They can they can speak for a 20-year-old man they can speak for a 20-year-old man they can speak for a 20-year-old man that has special needs that thought he that has special needs that thought he that has special needs that thought he was in a proper type of relationship was in a proper type of relationship was in a proper type of relationship that told he was told it was okay to go that told he was told it was okay to go that told he was told it was okay to go over the house. I mean, that's a much over the house. I mean, that's a much over the house. I mean, that's a much easier person for them to easier person for them to easier person for them to to stand up with and and look, it is to stand up with and and look, it is to stand up with and and look, it is hard. It's hard to deal with a jury, you hard. It's hard to deal with a jury, you hard. It's hard to deal with a jury, you know, jury selection when you think you know, jury selection when you think you know, jury selection when you think you might have some rogue individuals or might have some rogue individuals or might have some rogue individuals or individuals that are just going to

individuals that are just going to individuals that are just going to you know, kind of not really care about you know, kind of not really care about you know, kind of not really care about the law and that the optics might be the law and that the optics might be the law and that the optics might be against you. So, they they need to be against you. So, they they need to be against you. So, they they need to be extra careful extra careful extra careful and vet that out and really get the law and vet that out and really get the law and vet that out and really get the law and order type of people that are going and order type of people that are going and order type of people that are going to, you know, listen to the judge, to, you know, listen to the judge, to, you know, listen to the judge, listen to self-defense, don't let your listen to self-defense, don't let your listen to self-defense, don't let your emotions get the better of you here and emotions get the better of you here and emotions get the better of you here and and and and but, you know, this could be a close but, you know, this could be a close but, you know, this could be a close call, this case, just kind of based on call, this case, just kind of based on call, this case, just kind of based on all those other factors that we don't all those other factors that we don't all those other factors that we don't always see. It's a really interesting always see. It's a really interesting always see. It's a really interesting fact pattern. fact pattern. fact pattern. >> Yeah, it is. And we will continue to >> Yeah, it is. And we will continue to >> Yeah, it is. And we will continue to keep an eye on it because I I I do these keep an eye on it because I I I do these keep an eye on it because I I I do these types of things really fascinate me when types of things really fascinate me when types of things really fascinate me when it really comes down to taking a a part it really comes down to taking a a part it really comes down to taking a a part of the law that we seem to have our head of the law that we seem to have our head of the law that we seem to have our head wrapped around and then just continuing wrapped around and then just continuing wrapped around and then just continuing to twist interesting facts into it and to twist interesting facts into it and to twist interesting facts into it and see how it see how it all plays out. We see how it see how it all plays out. We see how it see how it all plays out. We will keep it there for now and move on will keep it there for now and move on will keep it there for now and move on to our final case out of Concord, New to our final case out of Concord, New to our final case out of Concord, New Hampshire. The woman at the center of a Hampshire. The woman at the center of a Hampshire. The woman at the center of a salacious murder plot is seeking a new salacious murder plot is seeking a new salacious murder plot is seeking a new trial more than 30 years after her trial more than 30 years after her trial more than 30 years after her conviction. Pamela Smart was sentenced conviction. Pamela Smart was sentenced conviction. Pamela Smart was sentenced to life without parole for the 1990 to life without parole for the 1990 to life without parole for the 1990 killing of her husband, Gregory Smart. killing of her husband, Gregory Smart. killing of her husband, Gregory Smart. While Smart didn't pull the trigger, she While Smart didn't pull the trigger, she While Smart didn't pull the trigger, she was found guilty of manipulating a was found guilty of manipulating a was found guilty of manipulating a 15-year-old student she was sleeping 15-year-old student she was sleeping 15-year-old student she was sleeping with to carry out the slaying. The with to carry out the slaying. The with to carry out the slaying. The minor, William Flynn, admitted to his minor, William Flynn, admitted to his minor, William Flynn, admitted to his part in the killing and has since been part in the killing and has since been part in the killing and has since been released on lifetime parole. Smart now released on lifetime parole. Smart now released on lifetime parole. Smart now wants another bite at the apple, wants another bite at the apple, wants another bite at the apple, claiming that evidence was claiming that evidence was claiming that evidence was misrepresented at trial when jurors were misrepresented at trial when jurors were misrepresented at trial when jurors were given a transcript to a recording where given a transcript to a recording where given a transcript to a recording where Smart allegedly confessed to Smart allegedly confessed to Smart allegedly confessed to masterminding her husband's death.

masterminding her husband's death. masterminding her husband's death. According to Smart's legal team, the According to Smart's legal team, the According to Smart's legal team, the transcripts deceptively directed the transcripts deceptively directed the transcripts deceptively directed the jury to hear Ms. Smart making jury to hear Ms. Smart making jury to hear Ms. Smart making inculpatory statements no act not inculpatory statements no act not inculpatory statements no act not actually rep actually rep actually rep not actually present in the audio. not actually present in the audio. not actually present in the audio. Smart's attorneys claim they can Smart's attorneys claim they can Smart's attorneys claim they can demonstrate the strength transcripts demonstrate the strength transcripts demonstrate the strength transcripts effects on jurors through so-called effects on jurors through so-called effects on jurors through so-called bathtub recordings that one juror bathtub recordings that one juror bathtub recordings that one juror recorded in their bathroom detailing recorded in their bathroom detailing recorded in their bathroom detailing their thought process on the case. In their thought process on the case. In their thought process on the case. In one recording the juror reportedly one recording the juror reportedly one recording the juror reportedly claimed that Smart couldn't be convicted claimed that Smart couldn't be convicted claimed that Smart couldn't be convicted without the tapes and specifying that without the tapes and specifying that without the tapes and specifying that jurors couldn't understand what was on jurors couldn't understand what was on jurors couldn't understand what was on the recordings without the supplied the recordings without the supplied the recordings without the supplied transcripts. Judge James Kennedy took transcripts. Judge James Kennedy took transcripts. Judge James Kennedy took Smart's arguments under advisement and Smart's arguments under advisement and Smart's arguments under advisement and is expected to deliver a ruling sometime is expected to deliver a ruling sometime is expected to deliver a ruling sometime in the next 2 months. Okay, let's put it in the next 2 months. Okay, let's put it in the next 2 months. Okay, let's put it aside these bathtub recordings for just aside these bathtub recordings for just aside these bathtub recordings for just one moment. Let's say one moment. Let's say one moment. Let's say it is in fact true that the transcripts it is in fact true that the transcripts it is in fact true that the transcripts were a pivotal part of all of this. The were a pivotal part of all of this. The were a pivotal part of all of this. The the the most clearest indication the the most clearest indication the the most clearest indication of her connection to this crime.

of her connection to this crime. of her connection to this crime. And they are bad audio. And it is And they are bad audio. And it is And they are bad audio. And it is something where you're kind of listening something where you're kind of listening something where you're kind of listening to the tra or watching the transcript as to the tra or watching the transcript as to the tra or watching the transcript as you're listening and might be you're listening and might be you're listening and might be uh uh uh allowing your ears to hear things that allowing your ears to hear things that allowing your ears to hear things that you're pre-programmed to believe are you're pre-programmed to believe are you're pre-programmed to believe are being said because you're reading the being said because you're reading the being said because you're reading the transcript if if you follow what I'm transcript if if you follow what I'm transcript if if you follow what I'm saying. How big of a deal could this be? saying. How big of a deal could this be? saying. How big of a deal could this be? And tell us how are transcripts supposed And tell us how are transcripts supposed And tell us how are transcripts supposed to be considered by jurors? to be considered by jurors? to be considered by jurors? >> Look, it's it's it's a big deal, but >> Look, it's it's it's a big deal, but >> Look, it's it's it's a big deal, but there's some issues. I think first and there's some issues. I think first and there's some issues. I think first and foremost a lot of states I know New York foremost a lot of states I know New York foremost a lot of states I know New York and I think many others when you get a and I think many others when you get a and I think many others when you get a situation like this you often get a an situation like this you often get a an situation like this you often get a an audio recording and sometimes the audio recording and sometimes the audio recording and sometimes the defense or the prosecution depending on defense or the prosecution depending on defense or the prosecution depending on who's admitting the audio will say to who's admitting the audio will say to who's admitting the audio will say to the judge look judge, we created a the judge look judge, we created a the judge look judge, we created a transcript. We've showed it to the other transcript. We've showed it to the other transcript. We've showed it to the other side already. That's step number one, side already. That's step number one, side already. That's step number one, right? At the actual trial did they show right? At the actual trial did they show right? At the actual trial did they show to the other side? Did the other side to the other side? Did the other side to the other side? Did the other side object? Did the other side make any object? Did the other side make any object? Did the other side make any edits or not? The second phase is the edits or not? The second phase is the edits or not? The second phase is the judge says, "Okay, I'm going to accept judge says, "Okay, I'm going to accept judge says, "Okay, I'm going to accept this and I'm going to give it to the this and I'm going to give it to the this and I'm going to give it to the jury." And phase two is I'm going to jury." And phase two is I'm going to jury." And phase two is I'm going to tell the jury, as I give it to them, tell the jury, as I give it to them, tell the jury, as I give it to them, that they're only to use this as a guide that they're only to use this as a guide that they're only to use this as a guide if they need help in hearing something.

if they need help in hearing something. if they need help in hearing something. And it is a fine line, right? Because And it is a fine line, right? Because And it is a fine line, right? Because our eyes are then glued on wanting to our eyes are then glued on wanting to our eyes are then glued on wanting to read it and thinking that it's accurate. read it and thinking that it's accurate. read it and thinking that it's accurate. And the limiting instruction is not that And the limiting instruction is not that And the limiting instruction is not that powerful, right? If you're given a powerful, right? If you're given a powerful, right? If you're given a transcript and you're listening to transcript and you're listening to transcript and you're listening to something, your eyes are probably going something, your eyes are probably going something, your eyes are probably going to go to what's on paper and just take to go to what's on paper and just take to go to what's on paper and just take that as true and accurate. It would be a that as true and accurate. It would be a that as true and accurate. It would be a better process if you listen to the better process if you listen to the better process if you listen to the audio and the judge afterwards said, "Do audio and the judge afterwards said, "Do audio and the judge afterwards said, "Do any jurors need to raise their hand any jurors need to raise their hand any jurors need to raise their hand because they couldn't hear any of the because they couldn't hear any of the because they couldn't hear any of the segments? If so, we're going to play it segments? If so, we're going to play it segments? If so, we're going to play it again and we're going to give you a again and we're going to give you a again and we're going to give you a transcript this time to follow along transcript this time to follow along transcript this time to follow along with." That would be sort of a perfect with." That would be sort of a perfect with." That would be sort of a perfect world. It doesn't seem to happen that world. It doesn't seem to happen that world. It doesn't seem to happen that way, but I think we need to dig a little way, but I think we need to dig a little way, but I think we need to dig a little bit deeper about a trial where her bit deeper about a trial where her bit deeper about a trial where her lawyer showed the transcript before. Did lawyer showed the transcript before. Did lawyer showed the transcript before. Did they make any edits? Did they stipulate? they make any edits? Did they stipulate? they make any edits? Did they stipulate? Did they agree? And then it feels like a Did they agree? And then it feels like a Did they agree? And then it feels like a direct appeal issue afterwards to say if direct appeal issue afterwards to say if direct appeal issue afterwards to say if they did object to an appellate court, they did object to an appellate court, they did object to an appellate court, which I'm sure happened, and say, "Look, which I'm sure happened, and say, "Look, which I'm sure happened, and say, "Look, this was a mistake to allow this in." this was a mistake to allow this in." this was a mistake to allow this in." The appellate court obviously denied it The appellate court obviously denied it The appellate court obviously denied it here. I'm sure that it was an appeal here. I'm sure that it was an appeal here. I'm sure that it was an appeal issue. So, I don't know if this is issue. So, I don't know if this is issue. So, I don't know if this is really new evidence. I don't know if really new evidence. I don't know if really new evidence. I don't know if it's material. it's material. it's material. I don't know how powerful it is. I don't I don't know how powerful it is. I don't I don't know how powerful it is. I don't know if any other jurors, other than know if any other jurors, other than know if any other jurors, other than this one bathroom juror, felt impacted this one bathroom juror, felt impacted this one bathroom juror, felt impacted by it. Um, by it. Um, by it. Um, you know, and it feels like a a you know, and it feels like a a you know, and it feels like a a you know, a pretty big stretch to say you know, a pretty big stretch to say you know, a pretty big stretch to say this is the piece of new evidence that this is the piece of new evidence that this is the piece of new evidence that we're going to kind of get her a new we're going to kind of get her a new we're going to kind of get her a new trial on, especially if the prior trial on, especially if the prior trial on, especially if the prior appellate records went into this issue.

appellate records went into this issue. appellate records went into this issue. Um, Um, Um, you know, there could be an you know, there could be an you know, there could be an ineffectiveness argument, although it's ineffectiveness argument, although it's ineffectiveness argument, although it's a high standard, but maybe her lawyers a high standard, but maybe her lawyers a high standard, but maybe her lawyers at trial just glossed over it. They at trial just glossed over it. They at trial just glossed over it. They said, "Oh, we don't feel like reading said, "Oh, we don't feel like reading said, "Oh, we don't feel like reading the transcript. You're right, you know, the transcript. You're right, you know, the transcript. You're right, you know, it's 30 pages. Just put it in. We trust it's 30 pages. Just put it in. We trust it's 30 pages. Just put it in. We trust you." Those are big issues cuz I I've you." Those are big issues cuz I I've you." Those are big issues cuz I I've had issues back and forth with defense had issues back and forth with defense had issues back and forth with defense and prosecution where we're both trying and prosecution where we're both trying and prosecution where we're both trying to interpret it the best way possible. to interpret it the best way possible. to interpret it the best way possible. And this case goes back to, you know, And this case goes back to, you know, And this case goes back to, you know, the '80s or the '90s. So, the audio was the '80s or the '90s. So, the audio was the '80s or the '90s. So, the audio was not that great. So, hopefully her not that great. So, hopefully her not that great. So, hopefully her lawyers did find tooth and say, "No, no. lawyers did find tooth and say, "No, no. lawyers did find tooth and say, "No, no. There's issues with this. You're You're There's issues with this. You're You're There's issues with this. You're You're You're having her, you know, admit to You're having her, you know, admit to You're having her, you know, admit to XYZ. We can't hear that. We're not XYZ. We can't hear that. We're not XYZ. We can't hear that. We're not allowing that in." So, allowing that in." So, allowing that in." So, it feels like it needs to be examined a it feels like it needs to be examined a it feels like it needs to be examined a little bit closer as to what happened at little bit closer as to what happened at little bit closer as to what happened at the trial level. I don't know if I the trial level. I don't know if I the trial level. I don't know if I constitute this as new evidence per se. constitute this as new evidence per se. constitute this as new evidence per se. Um you know, unless some other jurors, Um you know, unless some other jurors, Um you know, unless some other jurors, including this one, come in with an including this one, come in with an including this one, come in with an affidavit and give a little bit more affidavit and give a little bit more affidavit and give a little bit more context to how it affected their context to how it affected their context to how it affected their deliberation. deliberation. deliberation. Um you know, maybe some some some kind Um you know, maybe some some some kind Um you know, maybe some some some kind of further issues there with it. of further issues there with it. of further issues there with it. >> Yeah, I I've had uh more than one trial >> Yeah, I I've had uh more than one trial >> Yeah, I I've had uh more than one trial which has dealt with transcripts where which has dealt with transcripts where which has dealt with transcripts where there's been a dispute about what's there's been a dispute about what's there's been a dispute about what's being said.

being said. being said. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And it is funny. I mean, it can become >> And it is funny. I mean, it can become >> And it is funny. I mean, it can become hugely important down to a word. And hugely important down to a word. And hugely important down to a word. And I've had I've had I'm trying to think of I've had I've had I'm trying to think of I've had I've had I'm trying to think of how we resolved it in other cases. I had how we resolved it in other cases. I had how we resolved it in other cases. I had one trial where the judge just had each one trial where the judge just had each one trial where the judge just had each side submit their own transcript and side submit their own transcript and side submit their own transcript and say, "Here's Here's what the defense say, "Here's Here's what the defense say, "Here's Here's what the defense believes it says. Here's what the believes it says. Here's what the believes it says. Here's what the prosecution believes it says." I think I prosecution believes it says." I think I prosecution believes it says." I think I kind of had a kind of had a kind of had a a problem with that because I as the a problem with that because I as the a problem with that because I as the prosecutor, I was saying, "Well, they're prosecutor, I was saying, "Well, they're prosecutor, I was saying, "Well, they're just subject-sting their arguments in just subject-sting their arguments in just subject-sting their arguments in this." Like, I don't Like, there has to this." Like, I don't Like, there has to this." Like, I don't Like, there has to be some sort of reasonable be some sort of reasonable be some sort of reasonable uh ear, you know, a reasonable uh ear, you know, a reasonable uh ear, you know, a reasonable interpretation of what's being said. interpretation of what's being said. interpretation of what's being said. But, that's how the judge decided to But, that's how the judge decided to But, that's how the judge decided to handle it. In recent memory, too, for handle it. In recent memory, too, for handle it. In recent memory, too, for people following, people following, people following, this was a kind of became an issue in this was a kind of became an issue in this was a kind of became an issue in the Alec Murdoch case, if you remember, the Alec Murdoch case, if you remember, the Alec Murdoch case, if you remember, that he was giving he was giving that he was giving he was giving that he was giving he was giving discussions in a recorded interview discussions in a recorded interview discussions in a recorded interview inside of a vehicle. And there was one inside of a vehicle. And there was one inside of a vehicle. And there was one point where he said, uh they did him so point where he said, uh they did him so point where he said, uh they did him so bad. And some believed he was saying, "I bad. And some believed he was saying, "I bad. And some believed he was saying, "I did him so bad." in a in a kind of did him so bad." in a in a kind of did him so bad." in a in a kind of momentary slip. Anyhow, it can come down momentary slip. Anyhow, it can come down momentary slip. Anyhow, it can come down to one word, is what I'm saying. So, to one word, is what I'm saying. So, to one word, is what I'm saying. So, these transcripts could be important. In these transcripts could be important. In these transcripts could be important. In the last few minutes that we have left, the last few minutes that we have left, the last few minutes that we have left, though, tell us about these bathtub though, tell us about these bathtub though, tell us about these bathtub recordings and why they're important recordings and why they're important recordings and why they're important because they're because they're because they're uh you know, demonstrating that a juror uh you know, demonstrating that a juror uh you know, demonstrating that a juror did in fact rely on this. Is that did in fact rely on this. Is that did in fact rely on this. Is that something they need to establish for the something they need to establish for the something they need to establish for the appellate court?

appellate court? appellate court? >> I don't know if it's it's needs to be >> I don't know if it's it's needs to be >> I don't know if it's it's needs to be established in and of itself or that's established in and of itself or that's established in and of itself or that's dispositive, but it goes to the totality dispositive, but it goes to the totality dispositive, but it goes to the totality of circumstances, right? We talked about of circumstances, right? We talked about of circumstances, right? We talked about materiality and what affected a juror materiality and what affected a juror materiality and what affected a juror and and I do a fair amount of appellate and and I do a fair amount of appellate and and I do a fair amount of appellate work and I always look at the work and I always look at the work and I always look at the deliberation process and see if any deliberation process and see if any deliberation process and see if any notes were sent out and there's some notes were sent out and there's some notes were sent out and there's some case law in New York and elsewhere which case law in New York and elsewhere which case law in New York and elsewhere which says, "Look, this supports that the jury says, "Look, this supports that the jury says, "Look, this supports that the jury was was you know, this was a material was was you know, this was a material was was you know, this was a material part of their deliberation and their part of their deliberation and their part of their deliberation and their verdict because they zoned in on this verdict because they zoned in on this verdict because they zoned in on this exhibit or they zoned in on this exhibit or they zoned in on this exhibit or they zoned in on this transcript or they zoned in on transcript or they zoned in on transcript or they zoned in on on the transcription of it." So, the on the transcription of it." So, the on the transcription of it." So, the recording of the juror actually recording of the juror actually recording of the juror actually talking about what his or her mindset is talking about what his or her mindset is talking about what his or her mindset is and how it was an important piece of and how it was an important piece of and how it was an important piece of evidence. I mean, that that's a strong evidence. I mean, that that's a strong evidence. I mean, that that's a strong part I think for them in this and I part I think for them in this and I part I think for them in this and I think that that's why the judge took it think that that's why the judge took it think that that's why the judge took it under advisement. I think if it didn't under advisement. I think if it didn't under advisement. I think if it didn't have that piece of it and they were just have that piece of it and they were just have that piece of it and they were just speculating, it's very easy for an speculating, it's very easy for an speculating, it's very easy for an appellate judge or judge later on to appellate judge or judge later on to appellate judge or judge later on to say, "You know, there's no way to say say, "You know, there's no way to say say, "You know, there's no way to say that this had impact because you see that this had impact because you see that this had impact because you see that a lot with appeal work with work that a lot with appeal work with work that a lot with appeal work with work for looking for for looking for for looking for a new trial." You have to see if it you a new trial." You have to see if it you a new trial." You have to see if it you know, affected you know, if it was know, affected you know, if it was know, affected you know, if it was material. Did it affect their verdict?

material. Did it affect their verdict? material. Did it affect their verdict? Did it affect the jury deliberation? And Did it affect the jury deliberation? And Did it affect the jury deliberation? And what better support do you have than a what better support do you have than a what better support do you have than a recording of at least one juror saying recording of at least one juror saying recording of at least one juror saying that this is you know, a big deal to us that this is you know, a big deal to us that this is you know, a big deal to us right now. So, right now. So, right now. So, you know, I I think it is. I think if you know, I I think it is. I think if you know, I I think it is. I think if they can get other jurors, that would be they can get other jurors, that would be they can get other jurors, that would be a big a big a big way to bolster the situation here. If way to bolster the situation here. If way to bolster the situation here. If this juror says, "Oh, yeah, I spoke with this juror says, "Oh, yeah, I spoke with this juror says, "Oh, yeah, I spoke with so-and-so. You should speak with them." so-and-so. You should speak with them." so-and-so. You should speak with them." And affidavits and other pieces came in. And affidavits and other pieces came in. And affidavits and other pieces came in. I mean, again, I do a good amount of I mean, again, I do a good amount of I mean, again, I do a good amount of appellate work and we always kind of appellate work and we always kind of appellate work and we always kind of target who was on the jury. Let's speak target who was on the jury. Let's speak target who was on the jury. Let's speak with them. Let's see what was going with them. Let's see what was going with them. Let's see what was going through their mind. Let's see what through their mind. Let's see what through their mind. Let's see what things outside the trial came into play things outside the trial came into play things outside the trial came into play here. And you know, this seems like one here. And you know, this seems like one here. And you know, this seems like one of them. So. of them. So. of them. So. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, they expect to give a decision or Well, they expect to give a decision or Well, they expect to give a decision or at least this first phase of the appeal at least this first phase of the appeal at least this first phase of the appeal through the instant judge that's hearing through the instant judge that's hearing through the instant judge that's hearing it within the next few weeks. We'll it within the next few weeks. We'll it within the next few weeks. We'll continue to keep an eye on it, but we're continue to keep an eye on it, but we're continue to keep an eye on it, but we're going to have to leave it there for now. going to have to leave it there for now. going to have to leave it there for now. Jason, thank you so much for coming on Jason, thank you so much for coming on Jason, thank you so much for coming on this week. this week. this week. Tell us where can people find more about Tell us where can people find more about Tell us where can people find more about you? Do you have a website, social you? Do you have a website, social you? Do you have a website, social media? What can they look up? media? What can they look up? media? What can they look up? >> Yeah, basically all my information is at >> Yeah, basically all my information is at >> Yeah, basically all my information is at jasongoldmanlaw, and that's my website jasongoldmanlaw, and that's my website jasongoldmanlaw, and that's my website as well, jasongoldmanlaw.com.

as well, jasongoldmanlaw.com. as well, jasongoldmanlaw.com. I handle all sorts of criminal defense, I handle all sorts of criminal defense, I handle all sorts of criminal defense, federal and state, as well as federal and state, as well as federal and state, as well as some civil litigation, you know, usually some civil litigation, you know, usually some civil litigation, you know, usually a criminal crossover in those, but a criminal crossover in those, but a criminal crossover in those, but based out of Manhattan, handle cases based out of Manhattan, handle cases based out of Manhattan, handle cases around the country, and I really around the country, and I really around the country, and I really appreciate you having me on, Josh. appreciate you having me on, Josh. appreciate you having me on, Josh. >> Absolutely. We loved having our chat. >> Absolutely. We loved having our chat. >> Absolutely. We loved having our chat. I'm your host, Josh Ritter. You can find I'm your host, Josh Ritter. You can find I'm your host, Josh Ritter. You can find me on Instagram and Twitter at Joshua me on Instagram and Twitter at Joshua me on Instagram and Twitter at Joshua Ritter Esq. And if you want to hear my Ritter Esq. And if you want to hear my Ritter Esq. And if you want to hear my thoughts and coverage on even more true thoughts and coverage on even more true thoughts and coverage on even more true crime cases, you can check out my crime cases, you can check out my crime cases, you can check out my YouTube channel, Courtroom Confidential. YouTube channel, Courtroom Confidential. YouTube channel, Courtroom Confidential. And you can, of course, find all of our And you can, of course, find all of our And you can, of course, find all of our sidebar episodes wherever you get your sidebar episodes wherever you get your sidebar episodes wherever you get your podcast. And we would love to hear from podcast. And we would love to hear from podcast. And we would love to hear from you. If you've got questions or you. If you've got questions or you. If you've got questions or comments, please tweet us your questions comments, please tweet us your questions comments, please tweet us your questions with the hashtag TCN Sidebar. And thank with the hashtag TCN Sidebar. And thank with the hashtag TCN Sidebar. And thank you so much for joining us at the True you so much for joining us at the True you so much for joining us at the True Crime News Sidebar.