Is Lindsay Clancy criminally responsible? Doctor convicted of trying to kill wife wants new trial

Hello and welcome to the sidebar, Hello and welcome to the sidebar, presented by True Crime News, taking you presented by True Crime News, taking you presented by True Crime News, taking you inside the courtrooms of high-profile inside the courtrooms of high-profile inside the courtrooms of high-profile and notorious cases from across the and notorious cases from across the and notorious cases from across the country. I'm your host, Joshua Ritter. country. I'm your host, Joshua Ritter. country. I'm your host, Joshua Ritter. I'm a criminal defense lawyer based in I'm a criminal defense lawyer based in I'm a criminal defense lawyer based in Los Angeles and previously an LA County Los Angeles and previously an LA County Los Angeles and previously an LA County prosecutor for over a decade. In this prosecutor for over a decade. In this prosecutor for over a decade. In this week's episode, a doctor convicted of an week's episode, a doctor convicted of an week's episode, a doctor convicted of an attempt on his wife's life is seeking a attempt on his wife's life is seeking a attempt on his wife's life is seeking a new trial. Plus, Lindseay Clancy's new trial. Plus, Lindseay Clancy's new trial. Plus, Lindseay Clancy's defense presents their case as the defense presents their case as the defense presents their case as the mother accused of strangling her three mother accused of strangling her three mother accused of strangling her three children mounts an argument refuting her children mounts an argument refuting her children mounts an argument refuting her criminal liability. But first, the trial criminal liability. But first, the trial criminal liability. But first, the trial for Tupac's unsolved murder plays out in for Tupac's unsolved murder plays out in for Tupac's unsolved murder plays out in a courtroom 30 years after the rap a courtroom 30 years after the rap a courtroom 30 years after the rap icon's death. I'm flying solo today, so icon's death. I'm flying solo today, so icon's death. I'm flying solo today, so let's go ahead and just jump right in. let's go ahead and just jump right in. let's go ahead and just jump right in. Out of Las Vegas, Nevada. The trial for Out of Las Vegas, Nevada. The trial for Out of Las Vegas, Nevada. The trial for the murder of a hip hop legend is the murder of a hip hop legend is the murder of a hip hop legend is underway as prosecutors bring charges underway as prosecutors bring charges underway as prosecutors bring charges against the man they say orchestrated against the man they say orchestrated against the man they say orchestrated the death of Tupac Shakur. Dwayne Kei D. the death of Tupac Shakur. Dwayne Kei D. the death of Tupac Shakur. Dwayne Kei D. Davis faced a packed courtroom as the Davis faced a packed courtroom as the Davis faced a packed courtroom as the 30-year-old driveby slaying finally 30-year-old driveby slaying finally 30-year-old driveby slaying finally reached trial. Prosecutors claimed that reached trial. Prosecutors claimed that reached trial. Prosecutors claimed that Shakur's killing was an act of revenge Shakur's killing was an act of revenge Shakur's killing was an act of revenge organized by Davis after an attack on organized by Davis after an attack on organized by Davis after an attack on his nephew. However, they do not claim his nephew. However, they do not claim his nephew. However, they do not claim that Davis pulled the trigger. Much of that Davis pulled the trigger. Much of that Davis pulled the trigger. Much of the state's case will hang on Davis's the state's case will hang on Davis's the state's case will hang on Davis's own admissions, which initially came own admissions, which initially came own admissions, which initially came from a profer conversation that didn't from a profer conversation that didn't from a profer conversation that didn't ultimately result in a plea deal for ultimately result in a plea deal for ultimately result in a plea deal for Davis. While generally these Davis. While generally these Davis. While generally these negotiations would be protected, Davis's negotiations would be protected, Davis's negotiations would be protected, Davis's defense was unsuccessful in barring the defense was unsuccessful in barring the defense was unsuccessful in barring the evidence, as Davis later reiterated much

evidence, as Davis later reiterated much evidence, as Davis later reiterated much of the same information in his book and of the same information in his book and of the same information in his book and subsequent media tour. Though it is subsequent media tour. Though it is subsequent media tour. Though it is uncommon for those in gangs to come uncommon for those in gangs to come uncommon for those in gangs to come forward with information, we will see if forward with information, we will see if forward with information, we will see if his Davis statements could be the lynch his Davis statements could be the lynch his Davis statements could be the lynch pin in the long unsolved murder case. pin in the long unsolved murder case. pin in the long unsolved murder case. Well, let's talk about this profer Well, let's talk about this profer Well, let's talk about this profer statement first of all, because much of statement first of all, because much of statement first of all, because much of this case hinges on the words that came this case hinges on the words that came this case hinges on the words that came out of Davis's own mouth. In fact, I out of Davis's own mouth. In fact, I out of Davis's own mouth. In fact, I don't think there's a filing on this don't think there's a filing on this don't think there's a filing on this case if it wasn't for the words that case if it wasn't for the words that case if it wasn't for the words that came out of Davis's own mouth. The came out of Davis's own mouth. The came out of Davis's own mouth. The reason why this case was unsolved for 30 reason why this case was unsolved for 30 reason why this case was unsolved for 30 years is not because it was a who done years is not because it was a who done years is not because it was a who done it. Investigators had a very good idea it. Investigators had a very good idea it. Investigators had a very good idea of who was involved in this. It was of who was involved in this. It was of who was involved in this. It was could they prove it? Could they witness could they prove it? Could they witness could they prove it? Could they witness get the witnesses to come into court and get the witnesses to come into court and get the witnesses to come into court and actually talk about these things, these actually talk about these things, these actually talk about these things, these types of gang cases? And that's what types of gang cases? And that's what types of gang cases? And that's what this is. Ironically enough, after 30 this is. Ironically enough, after 30 this is. Ironically enough, after 30 years with all of the lore that years with all of the lore that years with all of the lore that surrounds this, this comes down to a surrounds this, this comes down to a surrounds this, this comes down to a simple gang beef and this those types of simple gang beef and this those types of simple gang beef and this those types of cases are very difficult for prosecutors cases are very difficult for prosecutors cases are very difficult for prosecutors because nobody wants to say anything because nobody wants to say anything because nobody wants to say anything about it. And that's exactly what they about it. And that's exactly what they about it. And that's exactly what they ran into in this case until Davis, one ran into in this case until Davis, one ran into in this case until Davis, one of the defendants, one of the people of the defendants, one of the people of the defendants, one of the people involved, decides he can't keep his involved, decides he can't keep his involved, decides he can't keep his mouth shut about the whole thing. Now, mouth shut about the whole thing. Now, mouth shut about the whole thing. Now, part of those statements come through a part of those statements come through a part of those statements come through a book that he wrote. Part of this is book that he wrote. Part of this is book that he wrote. Part of this is coming through interviews that he gave.

coming through interviews that he gave. coming through interviews that he gave. He was talking to many people about his He was talking to many people about his He was talking to many people about his involvement. He wasn't shy about it, but involvement. He wasn't shy about it, but involvement. He wasn't shy about it, but part of it comes from this profer part of it comes from this profer part of it comes from this profer agreement. And if you've heard us talk agreement. And if you've heard us talk agreement. And if you've heard us talk about profer agreements in the past, you about profer agreements in the past, you about profer agreements in the past, you know that those are usually protected. know that those are usually protected. know that those are usually protected. The whole idea is that you can go to a The whole idea is that you can go to a The whole idea is that you can go to a law enforcement agency and under a law enforcement agency and under a law enforcement agency and under a profer agreement, anything that you say profer agreement, anything that you say profer agreement, anything that you say to them cannot be used against you. It's to them cannot be used against you. It's to them cannot be used against you. It's a kind of immunity is a way to look at a kind of immunity is a way to look at a kind of immunity is a way to look at it. They want to hear what you have to it. They want to hear what you have to it. They want to hear what you have to say. And if what you have to say is say. And if what you have to say is say. And if what you have to say is valuable enough, then maybe they'll use valuable enough, then maybe they'll use valuable enough, then maybe they'll use you as a witness rather than a defend you as a witness rather than a defend you as a witness rather than a defend defendant in a trial. And he did that in defendant in a trial. And he did that in defendant in a trial. And he did that in this case. Problem was, it's not the this case. Problem was, it's not the this case. Problem was, it's not the same as an immunity agreement. It is not same as an immunity agreement. It is not same as an immunity agreement. It is not it doesn't bind the prosecution to never it doesn't bind the prosecution to never it doesn't bind the prosecution to never use your words against you. It's just an use your words against you. It's just an use your words against you. It's just an exploratory operation on the part of the exploratory operation on the part of the exploratory operation on the part of the prosecution to see what you have. And if prosecution to see what you have. And if prosecution to see what you have. And if you have valuable information, then you have valuable information, then you have valuable information, then maybe they make you a witness. If you maybe they make you a witness. If you maybe they make you a witness. If you don't have valuable information, then don't have valuable information, then don't have valuable information, then they give you no promises. But they are they give you no promises. But they are they give you no promises. But they are supposed to not use those statements supposed to not use those statements supposed to not use those statements unless you somehow violate your own side unless you somehow violate your own side unless you somehow violate your own side of the proper agreement. Well, how can of the proper agreement. Well, how can of the proper agreement. Well, how can you do that? Well, one way is to not be you do that? Well, one way is to not be you do that? Well, one way is to not be truthful, to not give them all the truthful, to not give them all the truthful, to not give them all the information that they're asking for or information that they're asking for or information that they're asking for or give them only half-truths or flatout give them only half-truths or flatout give them only half-truths or flatout lie about the questions you're being lie about the questions you're being lie about the questions you're being asked. The other way is to start talking asked. The other way is to start talking asked. The other way is to start talking about it. It's essentially seen as about it. It's essentially seen as about it. It's essentially seen as waving the agreement altogether when you waving the agreement altogether when you waving the agreement altogether when you start talking about it. And that's the start talking about it. And that's the start talking about it. And that's the way that the judge viewed it in this way that the judge viewed it in this way that the judge viewed it in this case. There is other evidence. There is case. There is other evidence. There is case. There is other evidence. There is other corroborating evidence. There are

other corroborating evidence. There are other corroborating evidence. There are other witnesses. But watch as this trial other witnesses. But watch as this trial other witnesses. But watch as this trial plays out. Those other witnesses are plays out. Those other witnesses are plays out. Those other witnesses are going to be reluctant to testify. Some going to be reluctant to testify. Some going to be reluctant to testify. Some of that evidence is going to be uh of that evidence is going to be uh of that evidence is going to be uh useful, but not nearly as powerful as useful, but not nearly as powerful as useful, but not nearly as powerful as the evidence that comes out of Davis's the evidence that comes out of Davis's the evidence that comes out of Davis's own mouth. This whole case is going to own mouth. This whole case is going to own mouth. This whole case is going to come down to do jurors believe Dwayne come down to do jurors believe Dwayne come down to do jurors believe Dwayne Davis when he tells other people that he Davis when he tells other people that he Davis when he tells other people that he was in fact involved in the killing. was in fact involved in the killing. was in fact involved in the killing. Another thing to keep in mind is that no Another thing to keep in mind is that no Another thing to keep in mind is that no one, including the prosecutors, are one, including the prosecutors, are one, including the prosecutors, are claiming that Dwayne Kei D. Davis is the claiming that Dwayne Kei D. Davis is the claiming that Dwayne Kei D. Davis is the trigger man. They are saying that he is trigger man. They are saying that he is trigger man. They are saying that he is the one who green lit the entire thing. the one who green lit the entire thing. the one who green lit the entire thing. He's the one that said, "Go ahead and He's the one that said, "Go ahead and He's the one that said, "Go ahead and let's do the shooting." and he's the one let's do the shooting." and he's the one let's do the shooting." and he's the one that provided the weapon, but he's not that provided the weapon, but he's not that provided the weapon, but he's not the one that actually pulled the the one that actually pulled the the one that actually pulled the trigger. That man, that person that they trigger. That man, that person that they trigger. That man, that person that they believed pulled the trigger has died. In believed pulled the trigger has died. In believed pulled the trigger has died. In fact, many of the other people involved fact, many of the other people involved fact, many of the other people involved have died. The only other true preipient have died. The only other true preipient have died. The only other true preipient witness to all of this was the man who witness to all of this was the man who witness to all of this was the man who was sitting next to Tupac. His name is was sitting next to Tupac. His name is was sitting next to Tupac. His name is Suge Knight. Suge Knight doesn't want to Suge Knight. Suge Knight doesn't want to Suge Knight. Suge Knight doesn't want to have anything to do with this case.

have anything to do with this case. have anything to do with this case. Again, when you're dealing with these Again, when you're dealing with these Again, when you're dealing with these gang type cases, they're very, very gang type cases, they're very, very gang type cases, they're very, very difficult to prosecute. So, we'll see if difficult to prosecute. So, we'll see if difficult to prosecute. So, we'll see if the if the prosecution can pull this the if the prosecution can pull this the if the prosecution can pull this thing off. One other thing to keep in thing off. One other thing to keep in thing off. One other thing to keep in mind is what's interesting about this mind is what's interesting about this mind is what's interesting about this case that you don't see in many cases. case that you don't see in many cases. case that you don't see in many cases. In many cases, when the defendant has In many cases, when the defendant has In many cases, when the defendant has something to say, the prosecution is something to say, the prosecution is something to say, the prosecution is taking the position, don't believe them. taking the position, don't believe them. taking the position, don't believe them. Don't believe these selfserving Don't believe these selfserving Don't believe these selfserving statements they were making. In this statements they were making. In this statements they were making. In this case, much of the prosecution case case, much of the prosecution case case, much of the prosecution case hinges on the idea of believe the hinges on the idea of believe the hinges on the idea of believe the defendant. Believe everything he said defendant. Believe everything he said defendant. Believe everything he said ahead of time. believe what he put in ahead of time. believe what he put in ahead of time. believe what he put in the book, believe what he gave, the the book, believe what he gave, the the book, believe what he gave, the statements he made during profer statements he made during profer statements he made during profer statements, other interviews that he statements, other interviews that he statements, other interviews that he gave. And the defense is in the position gave. And the defense is in the position gave. And the defense is in the position of saying, "Oh, that was just our client of saying, "Oh, that was just our client of saying, "Oh, that was just our client talking big. Don't believe a word that talking big. Don't believe a word that talking big. Don't believe a word that he says. He's just trying to sell books. he says. He's just trying to sell books. he says. He's just trying to sell books. He's just trying to get himself a good He's just trying to get himself a good He's just trying to get himself a good deal. None of it can really be deal. None of it can really be deal. None of it can really be believed." Quite a switch from what believed." Quite a switch from what believed." Quite a switch from what we're used to watching. We'll continue we're used to watching. We'll continue we're used to watching. We'll continue to watch that one because I think it'll to watch that one because I think it'll to watch that one because I think it'll be very, very interesting as it be very, very interesting as it be very, very interesting as it continues to play out 30 years after the continues to play out 30 years after the continues to play out 30 years after the murder of Tupac in Las Vegas. But let's murder of Tupac in Las Vegas. But let's murder of Tupac in Las Vegas. But let's turn to another case that is taking turn to another case that is taking turn to another case that is taking place more recently and has the entire place more recently and has the entire place more recently and has the entire nation watching out of Plymouth, nation watching out of Plymouth, nation watching out of Plymouth, Massachusetts. More than a month into Massachusetts. More than a month into Massachusetts. More than a month into the trial for a woman charged with the the trial for a woman charged with the the trial for a woman charged with the deaths of her three children, her deaths of her three children, her deaths of her three children, her defense is presenting their case defense is presenting their case defense is presenting their case depicting the mother's troubled mental depicting the mother's troubled mental depicting the mother's troubled mental state. Lindsay Clancy faces three counts state. Lindsay Clancy faces three counts state. Lindsay Clancy faces three counts of murder for the slayings of her of murder for the slayings of her of murder for the slayings of her children. Kora Dawson and Kalen who were children. Kora Dawson and Kalen who were children. Kora Dawson and Kalen who were strangled with exercise bands in the

strangled with exercise bands in the strangled with exercise bands in the family home. Clancy's defense doesn't family home. Clancy's defense doesn't family home. Clancy's defense doesn't dispute the alien mom's participation in dispute the alien mom's participation in dispute the alien mom's participation in the the deaths but maintains the the the deaths but maintains the the the deaths but maintains the killings occurred while the defendant killings occurred while the defendant killings occurred while the defendant was in the throws of psychosis. After was in the throws of psychosis. After was in the throws of psychosis. After prosecutors rested their case, witnesses prosecutors rested their case, witnesses prosecutors rested their case, witnesses spoke about Clancy's declining mental spoke about Clancy's declining mental spoke about Clancy's declining mental health with her mother recounting a health with her mother recounting a health with her mother recounting a conversation with Clancy and her then conversation with Clancy and her then conversation with Clancy and her then husband Patrick where she expressed husband Patrick where she expressed husband Patrick where she expressed thoughts of harming the children. thoughts of harming the children. thoughts of harming the children. Clancy repeatedly expressed that her Clancy repeatedly expressed that her Clancy repeatedly expressed that her medications were destroying her mind in medications were destroying her mind in medications were destroying her mind in conversations and notes apt entries as conversations and notes apt entries as conversations and notes apt entries as the mother sought care for her worsening the mother sought care for her worsening the mother sought care for her worsening condition. Jurors have already heard condition. Jurors have already heard condition. Jurors have already heard from some of Clancy's care team who from some of Clancy's care team who from some of Clancy's care team who claimed that they didn't know the woman claimed that they didn't know the woman claimed that they didn't know the woman was suffering from mania or psychosis, was suffering from mania or psychosis, was suffering from mania or psychosis, but she but that she had repeatedly but she but that she had repeatedly but she but that she had repeatedly expressed ideiations of self harm. While expressed ideiations of self harm. While expressed ideiations of self harm. While we don't know if Clancy will take the we don't know if Clancy will take the we don't know if Clancy will take the stand in her own defense, the battle of stand in her own defense, the battle of stand in her own defense, the battle of the experts is likely to continue for the experts is likely to continue for the experts is likely to continue for another couple of weeks as both another couple of weeks as both another couple of weeks as both prosecutors and the defense attempt to prosecutors and the defense attempt to prosecutors and the defense attempt to reckon the mother's mental state.

reckon the mother's mental state. reckon the mother's mental state. What happened this week when the defense What happened this week when the defense What happened this week when the defense took over in this case took over in this case took over in this case um really I think turn the tide for the um really I think turn the tide for the um really I think turn the tide for the defense. defense. defense. Before now, prosecutors had been Before now, prosecutors had been Before now, prosecutors had been struggling, but I think had also been struggling, but I think had also been struggling, but I think had also been convincing convincing convincing to make the case that yes, Lindseay to make the case that yes, Lindseay to make the case that yes, Lindseay Clancy may have been struggling with Clancy may have been struggling with Clancy may have been struggling with mental health health issues. That yes, mental health health issues. That yes, mental health health issues. That yes, she had been seeking help and not she had been seeking help and not she had been seeking help and not finding it. That maybe even some of that finding it. That maybe even some of that finding it. That maybe even some of that help she had been seeking had been help she had been seeking had been help she had been seeking had been inadequate or had been misdiagnosing inadequate or had been misdiagnosing inadequate or had been misdiagnosing her. It was a really sad tale that we her. It was a really sad tale that we her. It was a really sad tale that we were hearing. We were hearing about a were hearing. We were hearing about a were hearing. We were hearing about a woman who was being tortured, a woman woman who was being tortured, a woman woman who was being tortured, a woman who was struggling, a woman who was who was struggling, a woman who was who was struggling, a woman who was earnest about getting help and simply earnest about getting help and simply earnest about getting help and simply not receiving it in the way that she not receiving it in the way that she not receiving it in the way that she needed. needed. needed. But the prosecution, I think, also But the prosecution, I think, also But the prosecution, I think, also outlined how in the midst of all of outlined how in the midst of all of outlined how in the midst of all of that, this is still not a woman who is that, this is still not a woman who is that, this is still not a woman who is saying that she is so untied to reality saying that she is so untied to reality saying that she is so untied to reality that she doesn't know what she is doing that she doesn't know what she is doing that she doesn't know what she is doing in those moments. that yes, she was in those moments. that yes, she was in those moments. that yes, she was suffering from insomnia and yes, maybe suffering from insomnia and yes, maybe suffering from insomnia and yes, maybe that was turning towards some level of that was turning towards some level of that was turning towards some level of psychosis, but psychosis doesn't psychosis, but psychosis doesn't psychosis, but psychosis doesn't necessarily mean that a person is insane necessarily mean that a person is insane necessarily mean that a person is insane for the purposes of the criminal law. It for the purposes of the criminal law. It for the purposes of the criminal law. It means a person struggling. It means a means a person struggling. It means a means a person struggling. It means a person who's having difficulty with person who's having difficulty with person who's having difficulty with reality, but it doesn't mean a person reality, but it doesn't mean a person reality, but it doesn't mean a person who simply doesn't know that murdering who simply doesn't know that murdering who simply doesn't know that murdering her children is wrong. until today, her children is wrong. until today, her children is wrong. until today, until Wednesday when we're recording until Wednesday when we're recording until Wednesday when we're recording this program. Earlier today, the pro this program. Earlier today, the pro this program. Earlier today, the pro defense called Dr. Zezel. He is a expert

defense called Dr. Zezel. He is a expert defense called Dr. Zezel. He is a expert who consulted with the defense and saw who consulted with the defense and saw who consulted with the defense and saw Lindseay Clancy within days of the Lindseay Clancy within days of the Lindseay Clancy within days of the murders and interviewed her. A couple of murders and interviewed her. A couple of murders and interviewed her. A couple of big takeaways from his testimony. First, big takeaways from his testimony. First, big takeaways from his testimony. First, he talks about for the first time he talks about for the first time he talks about for the first time Lindseay Clancy saying that she was Lindseay Clancy saying that she was Lindseay Clancy saying that she was having auditory hallucinations. She said having auditory hallucinations. She said having auditory hallucinations. She said that she was having these voices, a male that she was having these voices, a male that she was having these voices, a male voice telling her before the murders voice telling her before the murders voice telling her before the murders that she needed to take her own life. that she needed to take her own life. that she needed to take her own life. She said that she was having intrusive She said that she was having intrusive She said that she was having intrusive thoughts about taking her own life. She thoughts about taking her own life. She thoughts about taking her own life. She said that she even believed that her said that she even believed that her said that she even believed that her thoughts may have been heard by other thoughts may have been heard by other thoughts may have been heard by other people and she was worried that other people and she was worried that other people and she was worried that other people were essentially listening to her people were essentially listening to her people were essentially listening to her mind and that they might cause them to mind and that they might cause them to mind and that they might cause them to take her children away. take her children away. take her children away. He also said that those thoughts He also said that those thoughts He also said that those thoughts included on the day of the murders the included on the day of the murders the included on the day of the murders the command to kill the children that she command to kill the children that she command to kill the children that she had to do it now that it had to be done had to do it now that it had to be done had to do it now that it had to be done the children had to be killed and she the children had to be killed and she the children had to be killed and she had to take her own life. had to take her own life. had to take her own life. The other thing that the defense, this The other thing that the defense, this The other thing that the defense, this defense witness added, and then I'll get defense witness added, and then I'll get defense witness added, and then I'll get to the prosecution side of all of this to the prosecution side of all of this to the prosecution side of all of this is the ultimate question in this entire is the ultimate question in this entire is the ultimate question in this entire case, and this was the first time that case, and this was the first time that case, and this was the first time that we had seen or heard testimony on the we had seen or heard testimony on the we had seen or heard testimony on the exact issue. At the very end of the exact issue. At the very end of the exact issue. At the very end of the direct examination of this witness by direct examination of this witness by direct examination of this witness by defense attorney Kevin Readington, he defense attorney Kevin Readington, he defense attorney Kevin Readington, he asked a question, and I'm going to asked a question, and I'm going to asked a question, and I'm going to summarize the question. It was summarize the question. It was summarize the question. It was to a degree of medical certainty. Do you to a degree of medical certainty. Do you to a degree of medical certainty. Do you believe that Lindsay Clancy was

believe that Lindsay Clancy was believe that Lindsay Clancy was unable to appreciate the wrongfulness of unable to appreciate the wrongfulness of unable to appreciate the wrongfulness of her actions or unable her actions or unable her actions or unable to control her actions when she murdered to control her actions when she murdered to control her actions when she murdered her three children? her three children? her three children? That question, and again, I'm That question, and again, I'm That question, and again, I'm summarizing, not verbatim, but that summarizing, not verbatim, but that summarizing, not verbatim, but that question that he asked was nearly taken question that he asked was nearly taken question that he asked was nearly taken line by line from the jury instruction line by line from the jury instruction line by line from the jury instruction that the jurors are going to hear in that the jurors are going to hear in that the jurors are going to hear in this case when it comes to criminal this case when it comes to criminal this case when it comes to criminal responsibility or what is the insanity responsibility or what is the insanity responsibility or what is the insanity defense here in Massachusetts. defense here in Massachusetts. defense here in Massachusetts. And the doctor responded to that very And the doctor responded to that very And the doctor responded to that very clearly and very deliberately by saying, clearly and very deliberately by saying, clearly and very deliberately by saying, "Yes, I do believe that she was unable "Yes, I do believe that she was unable "Yes, I do believe that she was unable to." And then he turned to the jurors. to." And then he turned to the jurors. to." And then he turned to the jurors. There's 18 jurors, 12 women, six men, 12 There's 18 jurors, 12 women, six men, 12 There's 18 jurors, 12 women, six men, 12 of whom will be deliberating. We don't of whom will be deliberating. We don't of whom will be deliberating. We don't know which 12 just yet. And he said, know which 12 just yet. And he said, know which 12 just yet. And he said, "Here's the reasons why." And he talked "Here's the reasons why." And he talked "Here's the reasons why." And he talked about her psychosis. And he talked about about her psychosis. And he talked about about her psychosis. And he talked about her bipolar uh perhaps undiagnosed her bipolar uh perhaps undiagnosed her bipolar uh perhaps undiagnosed bipolar condition. He talked about her bipolar condition. He talked about her bipolar condition. He talked about her her uh mental and hormonal and emotional her uh mental and hormonal and emotional her uh mental and hormonal and emotional imbalances. He talked about the auditory imbalances. He talked about the auditory imbalances. He talked about the auditory hallucinations. And that all of that hallucinations. And that all of that hallucinations. And that all of that together, he believes that she was together, he believes that she was together, he believes that she was having a brief an episodic having a brief an episodic having a brief an episodic psychotic episode that caused her to be psychotic episode that caused her to be psychotic episode that caused her to be unable to appreciate unable to appreciate unable to appreciate to a degree of certainty for the to a degree of certainty for the to a degree of certainty for the criminal courts the consequences, the criminal courts the consequences, the criminal courts the consequences, the wrongfulness of her actions. I watched wrongfulness of her actions. I watched wrongfulness of her actions. I watched those jurors.

those jurors. those jurors. They were taking extensive notes. They They were taking extensive notes. They They were taking extensive notes. They were paying attention to every single were paying attention to every single were paying attention to every single word that left his mouth. word that left his mouth. word that left his mouth. This is the central question in this This is the central question in this This is the central question in this entire case. And if jurors believe that entire case. And if jurors believe that entire case. And if jurors believe that expert, expert, expert, then I think the only appropriate then I think the only appropriate then I think the only appropriate verdict is to find her not guilty by verdict is to find her not guilty by verdict is to find her not guilty by reason of insanity. If they question reason of insanity. If they question reason of insanity. If they question that expert though, that expert though, that expert though, then they're then they should be looking then they're then they should be looking then they're then they should be looking at a a a verdict of guilty because she's at a a a verdict of guilty because she's at a a a verdict of guilty because she's already admitted to the murders here. already admitted to the murders here. already admitted to the murders here. Now, to those points, the prosecution in Now, to those points, the prosecution in Now, to those points, the prosecution in their cross-examination pointed out how their cross-examination pointed out how their cross-examination pointed out how one, those hallucinations, those one, those hallucinations, those one, those hallucinations, those auditory hallucinations, auditory hallucinations, auditory hallucinations, the first time anyone had ever heard the first time anyone had ever heard the first time anyone had ever heard about them, was about them, was about them, was from this expert retained by the defense from this expert retained by the defense from this expert retained by the defense days after the murders. that Lindseay days after the murders. that Lindseay days after the murders. that Lindseay Clancy had spoken to med many medical Clancy had spoken to med many medical Clancy had spoken to med many medical adviserss and mental health physicians adviserss and mental health physicians adviserss and mental health physicians and her family and her mother and her and her family and her mother and her and her family and her mother and her mother-in-law and practically anyone who mother-in-law and practically anyone who mother-in-law and practically anyone who had listened about the difficulty she had listened about the difficulty she had listened about the difficulty she was experiencing and no mention of was experiencing and no mention of was experiencing and no mention of auditory hallucinations. The other thing auditory hallucinations. The other thing auditory hallucinations. The other thing that was important is that the only time that was important is that the only time that was important is that the only time she claims that the voice commanded her she claims that the voice commanded her she claims that the voice commanded her to take the lives of the children was on to take the lives of the children was on to take the lives of the children was on that day that the children were murdered that day that the children were murdered that day that the children were murdered and that she never resisted that

and that she never resisted that and that she never resisted that command. command. command. Now, it'll be up to jurors to decide if Now, it'll be up to jurors to decide if Now, it'll be up to jurors to decide if these voices were real. I mean, real in these voices were real. I mean, real in these voices were real. I mean, real in the sense that Lindseay Clancy was the sense that Lindseay Clancy was the sense that Lindseay Clancy was telling the truth that she heard them. telling the truth that she heard them. telling the truth that she heard them. um and whether or not those voices in um and whether or not those voices in um and whether or not those voices in commanding her to do so go to that commanding her to do so go to that commanding her to do so go to that ultimate question of did that mean that ultimate question of did that mean that ultimate question of did that mean that she didn't appreciate the wrongfulness she didn't appreciate the wrongfulness she didn't appreciate the wrongfulness of her actions. One thing I didn't hear of her actions. One thing I didn't hear of her actions. One thing I didn't hear the prosecution ask, which maybe they the prosecution ask, which maybe they the prosecution ask, which maybe they will make that point in argument, but will make that point in argument, but will make that point in argument, but okay, it's one thing to be having voices okay, it's one thing to be having voices okay, it's one thing to be having voices tell you to do something, but it's tell you to do something, but it's tell you to do something, but it's another thing entirely to then therefore another thing entirely to then therefore another thing entirely to then therefore not know that murder is wrong. If a not know that murder is wrong. If a not know that murder is wrong. If a voice tells you to do something and you voice tells you to do something and you voice tells you to do something and you still if a voice tells you to kill, but still if a voice tells you to kill, but still if a voice tells you to kill, but you still know that killing is wrong, you still know that killing is wrong, you still know that killing is wrong, according to the law, in the eyes of the according to the law, in the eyes of the according to the law, in the eyes of the law, you are still guilty of that crime. law, you are still guilty of that crime. law, you are still guilty of that crime. We'll see what jurors do on this. This We'll see what jurors do on this. This We'll see what jurors do on this. This case, I think, will wrap up by next case, I think, will wrap up by next case, I think, will wrap up by next week. I think that we will be hearing week. I think that we will be hearing week. I think that we will be hearing closing arguments by next week. It's a closing arguments by next week. It's a closing arguments by next week. It's a case that really has captured the case that really has captured the case that really has captured the attention of the entire nation in a way attention of the entire nation in a way attention of the entire nation in a way that we haven't seen in recent memory.

that we haven't seen in recent memory. that we haven't seen in recent memory. We'll continue to keep an eye on it for We'll continue to keep an eye on it for We'll continue to keep an eye on it for you. Finally, let's move to Honolulu, you. Finally, let's move to Honolulu, you. Finally, let's move to Honolulu, Hawaii, where a doctor convicted of Hawaii, where a doctor convicted of Hawaii, where a doctor convicted of attempting to kill his wife on a scenic attempting to kill his wife on a scenic attempting to kill his wife on a scenic trail is seeking a new trial after trail is seeking a new trial after trail is seeking a new trial after alleged juror errors. Jurors found Ghart alleged juror errors. Jurors found Ghart alleged juror errors. Jurors found Ghart Koig guilty of attempted manslaughter Koig guilty of attempted manslaughter Koig guilty of attempted manslaughter after a violent incident with his wife, after a violent incident with his wife, after a violent incident with his wife, nuclear engineer Ariel Koig. Ariel nuclear engineer Ariel Koig. Ariel nuclear engineer Ariel Koig. Ariel described the ordeal on the stand in described the ordeal on the stand in described the ordeal on the stand in harrowing detail, claiming that Koenig harrowing detail, claiming that Koenig harrowing detail, claiming that Koenig assaulted her with a rock after assaulted her with a rock after assaulted her with a rock after attempting to throw her off a cliff. attempting to throw her off a cliff. attempting to throw her off a cliff. However, Koenig's defense is seeking a However, Koenig's defense is seeking a However, Koenig's defense is seeking a new trial after two jurors told media new trial after two jurors told media new trial after two jurors told media outlets that the group may ha not have outlets that the group may ha not have outlets that the group may ha not have unanimously agreed on Koik's intent to unanimously agreed on Koik's intent to unanimously agreed on Koik's intent to kill his wife. Additionally, one of the kill his wife. Additionally, one of the kill his wife. Additionally, one of the jurors allegedly discussed deliberations jurors allegedly discussed deliberations jurors allegedly discussed deliberations with an outside source in violation of with an outside source in violation of with an outside source in violation of court rules. Whether this results in a court rules. Whether this results in a court rules. Whether this results in a new trial for Koenig remains to be seen, new trial for Koenig remains to be seen, new trial for Koenig remains to be seen, but Judge Paul Wong said he would bring but Judge Paul Wong said he would bring but Judge Paul Wong said he would bring jurors back to investigate if their jurors back to investigate if their jurors back to investigate if their verdict was in any way tainted by an verdict was in any way tainted by an verdict was in any way tainted by an outside source. Here we go again with outside source. Here we go again with outside source. Here we go again with these jurors and it seems like this these jurors and it seems like this these jurors and it seems like this recent recent recent trend that we see with jurors having trend that we see with jurors having trend that we see with jurors having contact with people in the media after contact with people in the media after contact with people in the media after their deliberations.

their deliberations. their deliberations. We saw We saw We saw first of all a real problem in the Alec first of all a real problem in the Alec first of all a real problem in the Alec Murdoch case where the court clerk was Murdoch case where the court clerk was Murdoch case where the court clerk was speaking with jurors. Now, we're hearing speaking with jurors. Now, we're hearing speaking with jurors. Now, we're hearing that someone may have been communicating that someone may have been communicating that someone may have been communicating with jurors in this case. And even if with jurors in this case. And even if with jurors in this case. And even if not true, now we're hearing that the not true, now we're hearing that the not true, now we're hearing that the jurors in speaking to media outlets may jurors in speaking to media outlets may jurors in speaking to media outlets may have been um considering inappropriate um avenues and theories in their um avenues and theories in their deliberations. So, let's break that deliberations. So, let's break that deliberations. So, let's break that down. down. down. In Hawaii, in order to commit in order to commit manslaughter, you have to have the manslaughter, you have to have the manslaughter, you have to have the intent to kill. He was accused or he was intent to kill. He was accused or he was intent to kill. He was accused or he was convicted by the jurors of attempted convicted by the jurors of attempted convicted by the jurors of attempted manslaughter. The jurors apparently according to the The jurors apparently according to the defense now defense now defense now there's there's there's some who are saying that all of them some who are saying that all of them some who are saying that all of them agreed that he didn't intend to kill agreed that he didn't intend to kill agreed that he didn't intend to kill her. So, it sounds like jurors just her. So, it sounds like jurors just her. So, it sounds like jurors just found a verdict that they were found a verdict that they were found a verdict that they were comfortable with and said, "Well, we comfortable with and said, "Well, we comfortable with and said, "Well, we don't believe this was murder or an don't believe this was murder or an don't believe this was murder or an attempted murder because we don't attempted murder because we don't attempted murder because we don't believe he attempted to kill her, but we believe he attempted to kill her, but we believe he attempted to kill her, but we do believe that he attacked her, so do believe that he attacked her, so do believe that he attacked her, so we're going to call it an attempted we're going to call it an attempted we're going to call it an attempted voluntary manslaughter."

voluntary manslaughter." voluntary manslaughter." problem is even a voluntary manslaughter, attempted even a voluntary manslaughter, attempted voluntary manslaughter in the state of voluntary manslaughter in the state of voluntary manslaughter in the state of Hawaii should have required some intent Hawaii should have required some intent Hawaii should have required some intent to kill, which apparently these jurors to kill, which apparently these jurors to kill, which apparently these jurors did not. Now, did not. Now, did not. Now, I think Ghart got off really easy. I I think Ghart got off really easy. I I think Ghart got off really easy. I think this case, in my view, was a clear think this case, in my view, was a clear think this case, in my view, was a clear case of attempted murder. One of the case of attempted murder. One of the case of attempted murder. One of the things that we can take away from this things that we can take away from this things that we can take away from this is it sounds like the jurors did not is it sounds like the jurors did not is it sounds like the jurors did not find the wife, the ex-wife Ariel Koig's find the wife, the ex-wife Ariel Koig's find the wife, the ex-wife Ariel Koig's testimony entirely convincing, which is testimony entirely convincing, which is testimony entirely convincing, which is remarkable to me. I thought she was a remarkable to me. I thought she was a remarkable to me. I thought she was a very convincing witness. very convincing witness. very convincing witness. She says that he one tried to throw her She says that he one tried to throw her She says that he one tried to throw her off of a cliff. Two, when that didn't off of a cliff. Two, when that didn't off of a cliff. Two, when that didn't work, tried to stab her with a syringe work, tried to stab her with a syringe work, tried to stab her with a syringe with some unknown substance inside of with some unknown substance inside of with some unknown substance inside of it. And when that didn't work, that he it. And when that didn't work, that he it. And when that didn't work, that he picked up a rock and beat her on the picked up a rock and beat her on the picked up a rock and beat her on the head with it several times, causing head with it several times, causing head with it several times, causing severe injuries.

severe injuries. severe injuries. How How How any of those three are not attempts on any of those three are not attempts on any of those three are not attempts on someone's life is beyond me. someone's life is beyond me. someone's life is beyond me. But But But so I I I guess what where where we start so I I I guess what where where we start so I I I guess what where where we start from is the jurors didn't find her to be from is the jurors didn't find her to be from is the jurors didn't find her to be all that credible. He did testify Ghart all that credible. He did testify Ghart all that credible. He did testify Ghart as well. Maybe they found some of his as well. Maybe they found some of his as well. Maybe they found some of his explanation to be somewhat credible. But explanation to be somewhat credible. But explanation to be somewhat credible. But when this came back as an attempted when this came back as an attempted when this came back as an attempted manslaughter, I thought it was a manslaughter, I thought it was a manslaughter, I thought it was a complete victory for the defense cuz I complete victory for the defense cuz I complete victory for the defense cuz I thought he was going to go to prison for thought he was going to go to prison for thought he was going to go to prison for the rest of his life on attempted the rest of his life on attempted the rest of his life on attempted murder. murder. murder. But that's not good enough. They're now But that's not good enough. They're now But that's not good enough. They're now saying he should get an entire trial saying he should get an entire trial saying he should get an entire trial altogether. I'm almost wondering if altogether. I'm almost wondering if altogether. I'm almost wondering if he'll get exactly what he wished for. he'll get exactly what he wished for. he'll get exactly what he wished for. Um, and that might not be what he Um, and that might not be what he Um, and that might not be what he exactly wants. But let's put that aside exactly wants. But let's put that aside exactly wants. But let's put that aside for a second. What will happen now is it for a second. What will happen now is it for a second. What will happen now is it looks like the judge will have to bring looks like the judge will have to bring looks like the judge will have to bring all these jurors in, or at least the all these jurors in, or at least the all these jurors in, or at least the ones who spoke, and examine them under ones who spoke, and examine them under ones who spoke, and examine them under oath to find out, did they in fact oath to find out, did they in fact oath to find out, did they in fact consider things inappropriately? If they consider things inappropriately? If they consider things inappropriately? If they had come to the conclusion that there had come to the conclusion that there had come to the conclusion that there was no was no was no intent to kill here, then it is true intent to kill here, then it is true intent to kill here, then it is true that they should not have come back with that they should not have come back with that they should not have come back with a verdict of attempted manslaughter, a verdict of attempted manslaughter, a verdict of attempted manslaughter, that they should have come back with that they should have come back with that they should have come back with some sort of um some sort of um some sort of um assault charge. Now, I don't think the assault charge. Now, I don't think the assault charge. Now, I don't think the judge will just substitute that verdict.

judge will just substitute that verdict. judge will just substitute that verdict. I think if he finds that to be true, I think if he finds that to be true, I think if he finds that to be true, he'll order a new trial. That's option he'll order a new trial. That's option he'll order a new trial. That's option one. Option two is the judge could hear one. Option two is the judge could hear one. Option two is the judge could hear all this, feel that their all this, feel that their all this, feel that their misunderstanding didn't really affect misunderstanding didn't really affect misunderstanding didn't really affect the nature of their deliberations or the nature of their deliberations or the nature of their deliberations or find that their misunderstanding find that their misunderstanding find that their misunderstanding uh is not in fact true, that it was uh is not in fact true, that it was uh is not in fact true, that it was misconstrued or misrepresented by the misconstrued or misrepresented by the misconstrued or misrepresented by the defense and that they did in fact defense and that they did in fact defense and that they did in fact understand the law. Um and that we don't understand the law. Um and that we don't understand the law. Um and that we don't do anything with it. he that he rejects do anything with it. he that he rejects do anything with it. he that he rejects their request and that he goes on to be their request and that he goes on to be their request and that he goes on to be sentenced, then he probably appeals on sentenced, then he probably appeals on sentenced, then he probably appeals on the same issue down the line. But if the the same issue down the line. But if the the same issue down the line. But if the judge does find that there's reason to judge does find that there's reason to judge does find that there's reason to for a new trial, he'll get a new trial. for a new trial, he'll get a new trial. for a new trial, he'll get a new trial. I don't think that's what he wants. I I don't think that's what he wants. I I don't think that's what he wants. I think he is really uh discounting the think he is really uh discounting the think he is really uh discounting the real gift he was handed by that jury in real gift he was handed by that jury in real gift he was handed by that jury in the previous trial. the previous trial. the previous trial. I could easily see this going back to I could easily see this going back to I could easily see this going back to trial, the prosecution trial, the prosecution trial, the prosecution dusting off, recalibrating how they dusting off, recalibrating how they dusting off, recalibrating how they intend to prove this and proving this intend to prove this and proving this intend to prove this and proving this case and him being convicted of an case and him being convicted of an case and him being convicted of an attempted murder. Cuz in my view, that's attempted murder. Cuz in my view, that's attempted murder. Cuz in my view, that's clearly what it is. We shall see if we clearly what it is. We shall see if we clearly what it is. We shall see if we have to go through all of that again. We have to go through all of that again. We have to go through all of that again. We will of course keep you all updated, but will of course keep you all updated, but will of course keep you all updated, but that's where we're going to have to that's where we're going to have to that's where we're going to have to leave it for this week. We would love to leave it for this week. We would love to leave it for this week. We would love to give a special thanks to our listeners give a special thanks to our listeners give a special thanks to our listeners and viewers for tuning in. As always, and viewers for tuning in. As always, and viewers for tuning in. As always, I'm your host Josh Ritter. You can find I'm your host Josh Ritter. You can find I'm your host Josh Ritter. You can find me on Instagram and Twitter at Joshua

me on Instagram and Twitter at Joshua me on Instagram and Twitter at Joshua Ritter ESQ. And I would love for you to Ritter ESQ. And I would love for you to Ritter ESQ. And I would love for you to join me over at Courtroom Confidential join me over at Courtroom Confidential join me over at Courtroom Confidential if you want to hear my thoughts and if you want to hear my thoughts and if you want to hear my thoughts and coverage on even more true crime cases. coverage on even more true crime cases. coverage on even more true crime cases. That's here on YouTube at Courtroom That's here on YouTube at Courtroom That's here on YouTube at Courtroom Confidential. And you can, of course, Confidential. And you can, of course, Confidential. And you can, of course, find all of our sidebar episodes find all of our sidebar episodes find all of our sidebar episodes wherever you get your podcast. And we wherever you get your podcast. And we wherever you get your podcast. And we would love to hear from you. If you've would love to hear from you. If you've would love to hear from you. If you've got questions or comments you'd like us got questions or comments you'd like us got questions or comments you'd like us to address, please tweet us your to address, please tweet us your to address, please tweet us your questions with the ashtn questions with the ashtn questions with the ashtn sidebar. And thank you for joining us at sidebar. And thank you for joining us at sidebar. And thank you for joining us at the true crime news site.