Gilgo Beach serial killer sentenced; Millionaire at the center of fatal boat crash

Hello and welcome to the sidebar Hello and welcome to the sidebar presented by True Crime News, taking you presented by True Crime News, taking you presented by True Crime News, taking you inside the courtrooms of high inside the courtrooms of high inside the courtrooms of high high-profile and notorious cases from high-profile and notorious cases from high-profile and notorious cases from across the country. I'm your host Joshua across the country. I'm your host Joshua across the country. I'm your host Joshua Ritter. I'm a criminal defense lawyer Ritter. I'm a criminal defense lawyer Ritter. I'm a criminal defense lawyer based in Los Angeles and previously an based in Los Angeles and previously an based in Los Angeles and previously an LA County prosecutor for nearly a LA County prosecutor for nearly a LA County prosecutor for nearly a decade. We are recording this on decade. We are recording this on decade. We are recording this on Wednesday, June 17th, 2026. In this Wednesday, June 17th, 2026. In this Wednesday, June 17th, 2026. In this week's episode, the millionaire at the week's episode, the millionaire at the week's episode, the millionaire at the center of a fatal boat crash tells his center of a fatal boat crash tells his center of a fatal boat crash tells his side of the story as his defense takes side of the story as his defense takes side of the story as his defense takes center stage. Plus, prosecutors reveal center stage. Plus, prosecutors reveal center stage. Plus, prosecutors reveal the alleged motive of the man accused of the alleged motive of the man accused of the alleged motive of the man accused of starting the devastating Palisades fire. starting the devastating Palisades fire. starting the devastating Palisades fire. But first, the sentencing of Gilgo Beach But first, the sentencing of Gilgo Beach But first, the sentencing of Gilgo Beach serial killer Rex Huerman as the family serial killer Rex Huerman as the family serial killer Rex Huerman as the family members of the of his victims had their members of the of his victims had their members of the of his victims had their chance to speak in court. Today we are chance to speak in court. Today we are chance to speak in court. Today we are joined by Nicole Kazakov, a digital joined by Nicole Kazakov, a digital joined by Nicole Kazakov, a digital creator and law student at Sunfolk creator and law student at Sunfolk creator and law student at Sunfolk University. Nicole, welcome. How are University. Nicole, welcome. How are University. Nicole, welcome. How are you? you? you? >> I'm great. How are you? Thanks for >> I'm great. How are you? Thanks for >> I'm great. How are you? Thanks for having me. having me. having me. >> I'm doing fantastic. And I'm very much >> I'm doing fantastic. And I'm very much >> I'm doing fantastic. And I'm very much looking forward to this because you're looking forward to this because you're looking forward to this because you're the first law student that we've had on.

the first law student that we've had on. the first law student that we've had on. >> And I will tell you, you're probably >> And I will tell you, you're probably >> And I will tell you, you're probably going to be better at this than most going to be better at this than most going to be better at this than most lawyers because you're so in the weeds lawyers because you're so in the weeds lawyers because you're so in the weeds and fresh with all the all of the law. and fresh with all the all of the law. and fresh with all the all of the law. whereas I feel like it's you get out of whereas I feel like it's you get out of whereas I feel like it's you get out of law school and it becomes much more law school and it becomes much more law school and it becomes much more about, you know, business cards and and about, you know, business cards and and about, you know, business cards and and expensive lunches than actually expensive lunches than actually expensive lunches than actually understanding the law. So, no pressure, understanding the law. So, no pressure, understanding the law. So, no pressure, but I'm looking forward to this but I'm looking forward to this but I'm looking forward to this conversation. conversation. conversation. >> Um, let's jump in then. First, out of >> Um, let's jump in then. First, out of >> Um, let's jump in then. First, out of Long Island, New York, over three Long Island, New York, over three Long Island, New York, over three decades after the start of a killing decades after the start of a killing decades after the start of a killing spree, the that haunted the area, Rex spree, the that haunted the area, Rex spree, the that haunted the area, Rex Herman has been sentenced to more than Herman has been sentenced to more than Herman has been sentenced to more than three life terms in the Gilgo Beach three life terms in the Gilgo Beach three life terms in the Gilgo Beach Slangs. The serial killer pled guilty Slangs. The serial killer pled guilty Slangs. The serial killer pled guilty this spring to the murders of eight this spring to the murders of eight this spring to the murders of eight women, leaving no doubt he would spend women, leaving no doubt he would spend women, leaving no doubt he would spend the rest of his life behind bars. the rest of his life behind bars. the rest of his life behind bars. However, Huerman, who admitted to However, Huerman, who admitted to However, Huerman, who admitted to strangling and dismembering each of his strangling and dismembering each of his strangling and dismembering each of his victims, had the opportunity to address victims, had the opportunity to address victims, had the opportunity to address the court, saying only that he was quote the court, saying only that he was quote the court, saying only that he was quote responsible for all that was said in responsible for all that was said in responsible for all that was said in this room, adding the words I say have this room, adding the words I say have this room, adding the words I say have no meaning. The the sentiment didn't no meaning. The the sentiment didn't no meaning. The the sentiment didn't register as genuine contrition or an register as genuine contrition or an register as genuine contrition or an apology, leading the judge who apology, leading the judge who apology, leading the judge who admonished Hurman as a disgusting and admonished Hurman as a disgusting and admonished Hurman as a disgusting and small man, calling him a coward. More small man, calling him a coward. More small man, calling him a coward. More importantly, victim impact statements importantly, victim impact statements importantly, victim impact statements were given, allowing those forever were given, allowing those forever were given, allowing those forever affected by Herman's actions to have affected by Herman's actions to have affected by Herman's actions to have their voices heard. Many spoke to the their voices heard. Many spoke to the their voices heard. Many spoke to the devastating losses they suffered after devastating losses they suffered after devastating losses they suffered after losing their loved ones. Some victims losing their loved ones. Some victims losing their loved ones. Some victims even directed their eyeire at Herman's even directed their eyeire at Herman's even directed their eyeire at Herman's family for profiting off of the deaths

family for profiting off of the deaths family for profiting off of the deaths in their deal with the network streamer in their deal with the network streamer in their deal with the network streamer Peacock. While there's never a sense of Peacock. While there's never a sense of Peacock. While there's never a sense of justice in cases as tragic as this, it justice in cases as tragic as this, it justice in cases as tragic as this, it does for the time being close the book does for the time being close the book does for the time being close the book on one of the darkest chapters in Long on one of the darkest chapters in Long on one of the darkest chapters in Long Island's history. You know, um Nicole, Island's history. You know, um Nicole, Island's history. You know, um Nicole, these sentencing hearings are kind of a these sentencing hearings are kind of a these sentencing hearings are kind of a curious thing if you think about it. And curious thing if you think about it. And curious thing if you think about it. And this is not a really a legal question. this is not a really a legal question. this is not a really a legal question. This is just kind of as a as a person This is just kind of as a as a person This is just kind of as a as a person watching this, as a person who's, you watching this, as a person who's, you watching this, as a person who's, you know, invested time in understanding the know, invested time in understanding the know, invested time in understanding the pain that this man has caused. pain that this man has caused. pain that this man has caused. What do we really expect to get out of What do we really expect to get out of What do we really expect to get out of these? I mean, is this just kind of a these? I mean, is this just kind of a these? I mean, is this just kind of a moment for catharsis for the victims? Do moment for catharsis for the victims? Do moment for catharsis for the victims? Do we really expect to hear human say we really expect to hear human say we really expect to hear human say anything of of value? What are your anything of of value? What are your anything of of value? What are your thoughts? thoughts? thoughts? >> Yeah, I did watch his incredibly brief >> Yeah, I did watch his incredibly brief >> Yeah, I did watch his incredibly brief uh statement today. Um, and I kind of as uh statement today. Um, and I kind of as uh statement today. Um, and I kind of as you alluded to, I definitely think it's you alluded to, I definitely think it's you alluded to, I definitely think it's for the victim's families, um, the for the victim's families, um, the for the victim's families, um, the victims themselves. Um, yeah, kind of a victims themselves. Um, yeah, kind of a victims themselves. Um, yeah, kind of a cathartic thing. Um, but yeah, I not cathartic thing. Um, but yeah, I not cathartic thing. Um, but yeah, I not that I'm a seasoned attorney or that I'm a seasoned attorney or that I'm a seasoned attorney or anything, but I have never seen a judge anything, but I have never seen a judge anything, but I have never seen a judge react that way after someone's react that way after someone's react that way after someone's statement. Um, statement. Um, statement. Um, >> I kind of thought it was warranted, >> I kind of thought it was warranted, >> I kind of thought it was warranted, though, I have to say.

though, I have to say. though, I have to say. >> Yeah. You know what, and I'm glad he did >> Yeah. You know what, and I'm glad he did >> Yeah. You know what, and I'm glad he did it. I I think he kind of was speaking it. I I think he kind of was speaking it. I I think he kind of was speaking for all of us. I mean, we heard from the for all of us. I mean, we heard from the for all of us. I mean, we heard from the family members and it was, you know, as family members and it was, you know, as family members and it was, you know, as expected, just filled with continued expected, just filled with continued expected, just filled with continued rage and and and wounds that we'll never rage and and and wounds that we'll never rage and and and wounds that we'll never hear but heal, but you can tell tell hear but heal, but you can tell tell hear but heal, but you can tell tell that they're still fresh uh in their that they're still fresh uh in their that they're still fresh uh in their psyche. But the judge kind of said the psyche. But the judge kind of said the psyche. But the judge kind of said the stuff that I would have liked to have stuff that I would have liked to have stuff that I would have liked to have said as somebody who wasn't really said as somebody who wasn't really said as somebody who wasn't really directly affected by this. I would have directly affected by this. I would have directly affected by this. I would have liked to have called him a small man and liked to have called him a small man and liked to have called him a small man and say how he doesn't, you know, nothing say how he doesn't, you know, nothing say how he doesn't, you know, nothing that he says is of any value. to that that he says is of any value. to that that he says is of any value. to that point. You know, one of the things that point. You know, one of the things that point. You know, one of the things that that's a part of his deal, as it were, that's a part of his deal, as it were, that's a part of his deal, as it were, that a lot of people have pointed to was that a lot of people have pointed to was that a lot of people have pointed to was the idea that he plans on uh or at least the idea that he plans on uh or at least the idea that he plans on uh or at least has promised to cooperate with the FBI has promised to cooperate with the FBI has promised to cooperate with the FBI behavioral unit and and tell them about behavioral unit and and tell them about behavioral unit and and tell them about his thinking. Again, his thinking. Again, his thinking. Again, do you think this is valuable or is this do you think this is valuable or is this do you think this is valuable or is this just another opportunity for this man to just another opportunity for this man to just another opportunity for this man to brag about himself? brag about himself? brag about himself? >> Yeah. So, I wasn't really sure what to >> Yeah. So, I wasn't really sure what to >> Yeah. So, I wasn't really sure what to think of that. Um because as I think of that. Um because as I think of that. Um because as I understand it, the part of the plea was understand it, the part of the plea was understand it, the part of the plea was one that they would not prosecute for one that they would not prosecute for one that they would not prosecute for that eighth woman. Um which I don't that eighth woman. Um which I don't that eighth woman. Um which I don't really know how I feel about that.

really know how I feel about that. really know how I feel about that. Although I understand court resources, Although I understand court resources, Although I understand court resources, all of that. all of that. all of that. >> Um but I guess, you know, I'm just going >> Um but I guess, you know, I'm just going >> Um but I guess, you know, I'm just going to give a lawyer answer. It depends. Um to give a lawyer answer. It depends. Um to give a lawyer answer. It depends. Um >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> it depends if he tells the truth. It >> it depends if he tells the truth. It >> it depends if he tells the truth. It depends if he just wants to talk about depends if he just wants to talk about depends if he just wants to talk about himself, which I would not be surprised himself, which I would not be surprised himself, which I would not be surprised about. Um I I forget which psychologist, about. Um I I forget which psychologist, about. Um I I forget which psychologist, but I heard um a psychologist talk about but I heard um a psychologist talk about but I heard um a psychologist talk about this saying we're probably going to get this saying we're probably going to get this saying we're probably going to get a lot from him because he's the kind of a lot from him because he's the kind of a lot from him because he's the kind of person who probably loves to brag. I got person who probably loves to brag. I got person who probably loves to brag. I got away with this for so many years. All of away with this for so many years. All of away with this for so many years. All of that. that. that. >> Yeah. And I I have a feeling that this >> Yeah. And I I have a feeling that this >> Yeah. And I I have a feeling that this will not be the first time that these will not be the first time that these will not be the first time that these agents in that behavioral science unit agents in that behavioral science unit agents in that behavioral science unit at the FBI will have talked to someone at the FBI will have talked to someone at the FBI will have talked to someone like him who's a complete narcissist. like him who's a complete narcissist. like him who's a complete narcissist. and just wants to hear about themselves. and just wants to hear about themselves. and just wants to hear about themselves. But I imagine they can still glean some But I imagine they can still glean some But I imagine they can still glean some pretty um helpful information. I mean, pretty um helpful information. I mean, pretty um helpful information. I mean, this guy, the amount of planning that he this guy, the amount of planning that he this guy, the amount of planning that he put into these murders is pretty put into these murders is pretty put into these murders is pretty staggering. Uh wouldn't you say? I mean, staggering. Uh wouldn't you say? I mean, staggering. Uh wouldn't you say? I mean, the the you remember that they call it the the you remember that they call it the the you remember that they call it the blueprint or that planning document the blueprint or that planning document the blueprint or that planning document that he had.

that he had. that he had. Really elaborate. Not something, again, Really elaborate. Not something, again, Really elaborate. Not something, again, I'm not a FBI agent, neither are you, I'm not a FBI agent, neither are you, I'm not a FBI agent, neither are you, but not something that I've even heard but not something that I've even heard but not something that I've even heard about in in following these types of about in in following these types of about in in following these types of cases. cases. cases. >> Yeah, I was looking at the possible um >> Yeah, I was looking at the possible um >> Yeah, I was looking at the possible um evidentiary issues, and that I I looked evidentiary issues, and that I I looked evidentiary issues, and that I I looked at that and couldn't believe it. Um and at that and couldn't believe it. Um and at that and couldn't believe it. Um and I mean, I didn't follow the case I mean, I didn't follow the case I mean, I didn't follow the case extremely closely until semireently. Um extremely closely until semireently. Um extremely closely until semireently. Um but yeah, I have never seen anything but yeah, I have never seen anything but yeah, I have never seen anything like that. And um as we also know, I like that. And um as we also know, I like that. And um as we also know, I think it was his wife and daughter knew think it was his wife and daughter knew think it was his wife and daughter knew nothing of this either. nothing of this either. nothing of this either. get back to that point that you were get back to that point that you were get back to that point that you were making about because just to be clear, making about because just to be clear, making about because just to be clear, he pled to seven different murders. So, he pled to seven different murders. So, he pled to seven different murders. So, three of those were charged as first three of those were charged as first three of those were charged as first degree, four of those were charged as degree, four of those were charged as degree, four of those were charged as second degree. Unclear as to how they second degree. Unclear as to how they second degree. Unclear as to how they made that distinction, but it doesn't made that distinction, but it doesn't made that distinction, but it doesn't really matter because the math works out really matter because the math works out really matter because the math works out anyways. They wanted to make sure he anyways. They wanted to make sure he anyways. They wanted to make sure he would spend the rest of his life in would spend the rest of his life in would spend the rest of his life in prison and not really have a chance of prison and not really have a chance of prison and not really have a chance of any kind of release. They've done that. any kind of release. They've done that. any kind of release. They've done that. There isn't the death penalty in New There isn't the death penalty in New There isn't the death penalty in New York. So, this wasn't like a Coberger York. So, this wasn't like a Coberger York. So, this wasn't like a Coberger situation where they really had to give situation where they really had to give situation where they really had to give up something. They gave up nothing. But up something. They gave up nothing. But up something. They gave up nothing. But there was an eighth person there was an eighth person there was an eighth person uh victim who was he admitted to, but uh victim who was he admitted to, but uh victim who was he admitted to, but they was never charged with so never they was never charged with so never they was never charged with so never pled to this eighth uh woman.

pled to this eighth uh woman. pled to this eighth uh woman. Do you think they should have taken the Do you think they should have taken the Do you think they should have taken the time to actually go through the the time to actually go through the the time to actually go through the the logistics of charging him or is it logistics of charging him or is it logistics of charging him or is it enough that he admitted it? And again, enough that he admitted it? And again, enough that he admitted it? And again, this isn't really a legal question, just this isn't really a legal question, just this isn't really a legal question, just kind of your your take on it. kind of your your take on it. kind of your your take on it. >> Yeah, I know. I was thinking about that >> Yeah, I know. I was thinking about that >> Yeah, I know. I was thinking about that earlier today. I I mean, of course, you earlier today. I I mean, of course, you earlier today. I I mean, of course, you first have to think of the victim's first have to think of the victim's first have to think of the victim's family. I I don't know if we've heard family. I I don't know if we've heard family. I I don't know if we've heard anything from them or about them or anything from them or about them or anything from them or about them or anything, but I imagine that I mean, anything, but I imagine that I mean, anything, but I imagine that I mean, it's kind of like, well, what about me? it's kind of like, well, what about me? it's kind of like, well, what about me? What about my family? What about my family? What about my family? >> Um, at the same time, it may be that >> Um, at the same time, it may be that >> Um, at the same time, it may be that they're thinking, you know what, he's they're thinking, you know what, he's they're thinking, you know what, he's behind bars. he's going to stay there. behind bars. he's going to stay there. behind bars. he's going to stay there. That's good enough for me. Um, but yeah, That's good enough for me. Um, but yeah, That's good enough for me. Um, but yeah, with the minimal resources that, you with the minimal resources that, you with the minimal resources that, you know, courts, prosecutors, defense know, courts, prosecutors, defense know, courts, prosecutors, defense attorneys have, maybe that's the best attorneys have, maybe that's the best attorneys have, maybe that's the best thing, but I do understand, you know, thing, but I do understand, you know, thing, but I do understand, you know, the possible uh grief that the family the possible uh grief that the family the possible uh grief that the family feels for not getting to go through feels for not getting to go through feels for not getting to go through that. that. that. >> Last question on this. They found more >> Last question on this. They found more >> Last question on this. They found more bodies in that area in in GoGo Beach and bodies in that area in in GoGo Beach and bodies in that area in in GoGo Beach and they found uh there are other they found uh there are other they found uh there are other jurisdictions where he was known to uh jurisdictions where he was known to uh jurisdictions where he was known to uh travel or frequent where they have travel or frequent where they have travel or frequent where they have unsolved cases. Now they have access to unsolved cases. Now they have access to unsolved cases. Now they have access to his DNA. There's a weird law in New York his DNA. There's a weird law in New York his DNA. There's a weird law in New York where they could not enter his DNA where they could not enter his DNA where they could not enter his DNA profile into the the the nationwide profile into the the the nationwide profile into the the the nationwide COTUS system until after he's been pled COTUS system until after he's been pled COTUS system until after he's been pled and sentenced. So that took place today.

and sentenced. So that took place today. and sentenced. So that took place today. So now you've got all these different So now you've got all these different So now you've got all these different jurisdictions that are trying to clear jurisdictions that are trying to clear jurisdictions that are trying to clear some cold cases that he may they feel some cold cases that he may they feel some cold cases that he may they feel that he may be a part of. You think this that he may be a part of. You think this that he may be a part of. You think this is the end of it or you think that we is the end of it or you think that we is the end of it or you think that we might feel that he's responsible for might feel that he's responsible for might feel that he's responsible for other murders? other murders? other murders? >> I mean >> I mean >> I mean I wouldn't be surprised of course. Um I wouldn't be surprised of course. Um I wouldn't be surprised of course. Um and they did only specify that this and they did only specify that this and they did only specify that this particular eighth woman they wouldn't particular eighth woman they wouldn't particular eighth woman they wouldn't prosecute for. So, prosecute for. So, prosecute for. So, I I don't I don't think we've seen the I I don't I don't think we've seen the I I don't I don't think we've seen the last of him, unfortunately. last of him, unfortunately. last of him, unfortunately. >> I I think I agree with you. Um somebody >> I I think I agree with you. Um somebody >> I I think I agree with you. Um somebody who was this who was this who was this um how do I put this? somebody who um how do I put this? somebody who um how do I put this? somebody who seemed to receive this much seemed to receive this much seemed to receive this much excitement, excitement, excitement, uh, pleasure, I hate to use that word, uh, pleasure, I hate to use that word, uh, pleasure, I hate to use that word, but the enjoyment out of doing this but the enjoyment out of doing this but the enjoyment out of doing this really evil person who enjoyed the the really evil person who enjoyed the the really evil person who enjoyed the the the act of the killing and and the the act of the killing and and the the act of the killing and and the mutilation, but also the planning of it. mutilation, but also the planning of it. mutilation, but also the planning of it. You could tell I just can't see that he You could tell I just can't see that he You could tell I just can't see that he was this was it. Um, I was speaking with was this was it. Um, I was speaking with was this was it. Um, I was speaking with some other folks too who said that no, I some other folks too who said that no, I some other folks too who said that no, I think, you know, they they said no, we think, you know, they they said no, we think, you know, they they said no, we think it's in the double digits. I mean, think it's in the double digits. I mean, think it's in the double digits. I mean, we I would not be shocked if they're we I would not be shocked if they're we I would not be shocked if they're able to now that his DNA is out there able to now that his DNA is out there able to now that his DNA is out there and they have a profile if we might hear and they have a profile if we might hear and they have a profile if we might hear about other cases being solved. So, we about other cases being solved. So, we about other cases being solved. So, we will continue to keep our eyes on this will continue to keep our eyes on this will continue to keep our eyes on this one. Um, it's the end of a of a chapter, one. Um, it's the end of a of a chapter, one. Um, it's the end of a of a chapter, but I don't know if it's the end of the but I don't know if it's the end of the but I don't know if it's the end of the story completely. Let's move to Miami story completely. Let's move to Miami story completely. Let's move to Miami Dade County, Florida, where the Dade County, Florida, where the Dade County, Florida, where the millionaire developer at the center of a

millionaire developer at the center of a millionaire developer at the center of a fatal boating crash had his side of the fatal boating crash had his side of the fatal boating crash had his side of the story told after prosecutors accused the story told after prosecutors accused the story told after prosecutors accused the man of gross negligence. George Pino man of gross negligence. George Pino man of gross negligence. George Pino faces charges of manslaughter and vessel faces charges of manslaughter and vessel faces charges of manslaughter and vessel homicide after the nautical accident homicide after the nautical accident homicide after the nautical accident that took the life of teenager Lucy that took the life of teenager Lucy that took the life of teenager Lucy Fernandez. Pino struck a marker, a Fernandez. Pino struck a marker, a Fernandez. Pino struck a marker, a channel marker, while driving on the channel marker, while driving on the channel marker, while driving on the wrong side of the channel, capsizing the wrong side of the channel, capsizing the wrong side of the channel, capsizing the boat and sending many of the passengers boat and sending many of the passengers boat and sending many of the passengers flying. Witnesses in Pino's defense took flying. Witnesses in Pino's defense took flying. Witnesses in Pino's defense took the stand this week to describe the the stand this week to describe the the stand this week to describe the idealic day that turned into a idealic day that turned into a idealic day that turned into a nightmare. Pino's wife, Cecilia, took nightmare. Pino's wife, Cecilia, took nightmare. Pino's wife, Cecilia, took the stand in an emotional testimony the stand in an emotional testimony the stand in an emotional testimony reminiscent of the defendant's outburst reminiscent of the defendant's outburst reminiscent of the defendant's outburst to begin the trial. Cecilia described to begin the trial. Cecilia described to begin the trial. Cecilia described how the p how the Penos had known the how the p how the Penos had known the how the p how the Penos had known the passengers from the time they were passengers from the time they were passengers from the time they were children, insisting her husband would children, insisting her husband would children, insisting her husband would never do anything to harm the children, never do anything to harm the children, never do anything to harm the children, especially driving if they were especially driving if they were especially driving if they were impaired. However, both adult penos did impaired. However, both adult penos did impaired. However, both adult penos did allow the underage minors on the boat to allow the underage minors on the boat to allow the underage minors on the boat to indulge in alcohol, which they allegedly indulge in alcohol, which they allegedly indulge in alcohol, which they allegedly provided. While Puno was never provided. While Puno was never provided. While Puno was never breathalyzed or given a blood test after breathalyzed or given a blood test after breathalyzed or given a blood test after the incident, additional witnesses on the incident, additional witnesses on the incident, additional witnesses on his behalf testified that the man didn't his behalf testified that the man didn't his behalf testified that the man didn't appear impaired in the resulting chaos appear impaired in the resulting chaos appear impaired in the resulting chaos of the crash. Ultimately, the decision of the crash. Ultimately, the decision of the crash. Ultimately, the decision will be left in the hands of the jurors will be left in the hands of the jurors will be left in the hands of the jurors who could have a verdict by the time who could have a verdict by the time who could have a verdict by the time you're listening to this.

you're listening to this. you're listening to this. Okay, Okay, Okay, this one. I'm sure you've learned this this one. I'm sure you've learned this this one. I'm sure you've learned this at least so far in law school about at least so far in law school about at least so far in law school about preserving evidence and how important it preserving evidence and how important it preserving evidence and how important it is for investigators to do the right is for investigators to do the right is for investigators to do the right work early on because then prosecutors work early on because then prosecutors work early on because then prosecutors are going to be left with nothing at the are going to be left with nothing at the are going to be left with nothing at the trial stage. And that's really what we trial stage. And that's really what we trial stage. And that's really what we have here. I am beside myself with the have here. I am beside myself with the have here. I am beside myself with the idea that they never tested him, idea that they never tested him, idea that they never tested him, breathalyzed him, field sobriety tests. breathalyzed him, field sobriety tests. breathalyzed him, field sobriety tests. if they had to go out and get a warrant if they had to go out and get a warrant if they had to go out and get a warrant for his blood to be drawn. But the idea for his blood to be drawn. But the idea for his blood to be drawn. But the idea that you had over 60 bottles of alcohol that you had over 60 bottles of alcohol that you had over 60 bottles of alcohol on that boat and the boat hits a channel on that boat and the boat hits a channel on that boat and the boat hits a channel marker and they don't breathalyze this marker and they don't breathalyze this marker and they don't breathalyze this guy, I do you think there's any excuse guy, I do you think there's any excuse guy, I do you think there's any excuse for that? And is that going to be a for that? And is that going to be a for that? And is that going to be a major problem for the prosecution in major problem for the prosecution in major problem for the prosecution in this case? this case? this case? >> Um, when I when I saw that, I really >> Um, when I when I saw that, I really >> Um, when I when I saw that, I really wasn't sure what to think. I think wasn't sure what to think. I think wasn't sure what to think. I think that's going to be a problem. that's going to be a problem. that's going to be a problem. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> if I mean not much in any trial is black >> if I mean not much in any trial is black >> if I mean not much in any trial is black or white. There's a lot of ambiguity, a or white. There's a lot of ambiguity, a or white. There's a lot of ambiguity, a lot of factf finding for the jury. And lot of factf finding for the jury. And lot of factf finding for the jury. And without something as uh definitive as a without something as uh definitive as a without something as uh definitive as a breathalyzer or something of that breathalyzer or something of that breathalyzer or something of that nature, it's just going to be I guess up nature, it's just going to be I guess up nature, it's just going to be I guess up to witnesses to say, "Well, he was not to witnesses to say, "Well, he was not to witnesses to say, "Well, he was not slurring his words. He seemed fine." And slurring his words. He seemed fine." And slurring his words. He seemed fine." And all of that. So, I just know there's no all of that. So, I just know there's no all of that. So, I just know there's no excuse for it in the short. Um, also, I excuse for it in the short. Um, also, I excuse for it in the short. Um, also, I think you said 60s something bottles of

think you said 60s something bottles of think you said 60s something bottles of alcohol was on the Why would you not? I alcohol was on the Why would you not? I alcohol was on the Why would you not? I I really do not understand that. It's I really do not understand that. It's I really do not understand that. It's going to be a problem, I think. going to be a problem, I think. going to be a problem, I think. >> Listen, they can still try to make the >> Listen, they can still try to make the >> Listen, they can still try to make the argument that he was perhaps impaired. argument that he was perhaps impaired. argument that he was perhaps impaired. They didn't charge him with being They didn't charge him with being They didn't charge him with being impaired, but I I think they are impaired, but I I think they are impaired, but I I think they are certainly trying to make that argument. certainly trying to make that argument. certainly trying to make that argument. But it just But it just But it just >> to me there's no >> to me there's no >> to me there's no explanation as to why they wouldn't get explanation as to why they wouldn't get explanation as to why they wouldn't get a test on this guy. Even if they felt a test on this guy. Even if they felt a test on this guy. Even if they felt that he showed no objective signs of that he showed no objective signs of that he showed no objective signs of impairment, you've got a dead body in impairment, you've got a dead body in impairment, you've got a dead body in the water. Do the test. Who know? I the water. Do the test. Who know? I the water. Do the test. Who know? I mean, if it comes back zero, fine. But mean, if it comes back zero, fine. But mean, if it comes back zero, fine. But if it comes back with with he's under if it comes back with with he's under if it comes back with with he's under the influence, that seems like something the influence, that seems like something the influence, that seems like something that you would want to know. And it's that you would want to know. And it's that you would want to know. And it's that type of evidence that goes away if that type of evidence that goes away if that type of evidence that goes away if you don't take advantage of it you don't take advantage of it you don't take advantage of it initially. So it just inexcusable on the initially. So it just inexcusable on the initially. So it just inexcusable on the part of law enforcement to me in this part of law enforcement to me in this part of law enforcement to me in this case and I've never heard a really good case and I've never heard a really good case and I've never heard a really good reason as to why they didn't do it. But reason as to why they didn't do it. But reason as to why they didn't do it. But let's get to what they are trying what let's get to what they are trying what let's get to what they are trying what they do have proof of. And one of those they do have proof of. And one of those they do have proof of. And one of those things is that he was going over 50 mph things is that he was going over 50 mph things is that he was going over 50 mph at the time that he hit this channel at the time that he hit this channel at the time that he hit this channel marker. And I've seen the photographs marker. And I've seen the photographs marker. And I've seen the photographs and I've seen some of the presentation and I've seen some of the presentation and I've seen some of the presentation of the evidence in court. It's pretty of the evidence in court. It's pretty of the evidence in court. It's pretty clearly marked this channel marker.

clearly marked this channel marker. clearly marked this channel marker. They're trying to make the argument that They're trying to make the argument that They're trying to make the argument that going as fast as he was on the wrong going as fast as he was on the wrong going as fast as he was on the wrong side of the channel in waters that he's side of the channel in waters that he's side of the channel in waters that he's familiar with and not seeing something familiar with and not seeing something familiar with and not seeing something as clear as day as this channel marker as clear as day as this channel marker as clear as day as this channel marker that those all add up to recklessness that those all add up to recklessness that those all add up to recklessness enough for the crime that he's charged enough for the crime that he's charged enough for the crime that he's charged with. What are your thoughts? with. What are your thoughts? with. What are your thoughts? >> Yeah, I mean I'm sorry. Why? Why the >> Yeah, I mean I'm sorry. Why? Why the >> Yeah, I mean I'm sorry. Why? Why the hell are you going 47 miles an hour when hell are you going 47 miles an hour when hell are you going 47 miles an hour when you have what 13 other people on your you have what 13 other people on your you have what 13 other people on your boat? boat? boat? >> Um, also >> Um, also >> Um, also >> children that you apparently care a lot >> children that you apparently care a lot >> children that you apparently care a lot about and have known since they were about and have known since they were about and have known since they were kids, but go ahead. Sorry to interrupt. kids, but go ahead. Sorry to interrupt. kids, but go ahead. Sorry to interrupt. >> Claim that you raised them. All this all >> Claim that you raised them. All this all >> Claim that you raised them. All this all this stuff. Um, so I I really I mean this stuff. Um, so I I really I mean this stuff. Um, so I I really I mean then they were talking about I looked at then they were talking about I looked at then they were talking about I looked at some of the testimony talking about like some of the testimony talking about like some of the testimony talking about like whether the tide and then the direction whether the tide and then the direction whether the tide and then the direction of the sun was his vision being blocked. of the sun was his vision being blocked. of the sun was his vision being blocked. Again, none of that would have mattered Again, none of that would have mattered Again, none of that would have mattered or it would have had a lot less weight, or it would have had a lot less weight, or it would have had a lot less weight, I think, for the jury if they had done a I think, for the jury if they had done a I think, for the jury if they had done a breathalyzer. Um, but I guess we're not breathalyzer. Um, but I guess we're not breathalyzer. Um, but I guess we're not at that point right now. Um, and I'm not at that point right now. Um, and I'm not at that point right now. Um, and I'm not like, was he in a no wake zone? Was he like, was he in a no wake zone? Was he like, was he in a no wake zone? Was he in open water? I tried to find it out, in open water? I tried to find it out, in open water? I tried to find it out, but the testimony was pretty long. Um, but the testimony was pretty long. Um, but the testimony was pretty long. Um, but I just I could not get over that but I just I could not get over that but I just I could not get over that they didn't do the breathalyzer and then they didn't do the breathalyzer and then they didn't do the breathalyzer and then all these other factors come in.

all these other factors come in. all these other factors come in. >> Yeah. Yeah. Again, it just is making >> Yeah. Yeah. Again, it just is making >> Yeah. Yeah. Again, it just is making their their arguments that much more their their arguments that much more their their arguments that much more difficult because now I think the trial difficult because now I think the trial difficult because now I think the trial is kind of becoming about was he is kind of becoming about was he is kind of becoming about was he intoxicated when that really shouldn't intoxicated when that really shouldn't intoxicated when that really shouldn't be the question. be the question. be the question. >> The question should be was he reckless >> The question should be was he reckless >> The question should be was he reckless intoxication or not? intoxication or not? intoxication or not? >> And I feel like jurors might be confused >> And I feel like jurors might be confused >> And I feel like jurors might be confused to the point that they get, well, I to the point that they get, well, I to the point that they get, well, I don't think he was drunk, so what am I don't think he was drunk, so what am I don't think he was drunk, so what am I supposed to do here? Accidents happen. supposed to do here? Accidents happen. supposed to do here? Accidents happen. And that's kind of the point the And that's kind of the point the And that's kind of the point the prosecutors are making is like, no, prosecutors are making is like, no, prosecutors are making is like, no, accidents don't really happen if you're accidents don't really happen if you're accidents don't really happen if you're following the rules. to me. What do you following the rules. to me. What do you following the rules. to me. What do you think about this? What if they made an think about this? What if they made an think about this? What if they made an argument of argument of argument of would we be having a discussion about would we be having a discussion about would we be having a discussion about impairment if you had a person going 60 impairment if you had a person going 60 impairment if you had a person going 60 in a school zone who blows through a in a school zone who blows through a in a school zone who blows through a stop sign? Cuz that's essentially what's stop sign? Cuz that's essentially what's stop sign? Cuz that's essentially what's happening here on on the water that hap happening here on on the water that hap happening here on on the water that hap that would have happened on land. Right. that would have happened on land. Right. that would have happened on land. Right. You kind of wrap your head around the You kind of wrap your head around the You kind of wrap your head around the recklessness of it at that point. recklessness of it at that point. recklessness of it at that point. >> Right. Right. Um, I actually tried to I >> Right. Right. Um, I actually tried to I >> Right. Right. Um, I actually tried to I didn't get to do a super deep dive, but didn't get to do a super deep dive, but didn't get to do a super deep dive, but I tried to look at like is there is I tried to look at like is there is I tried to look at like is there is there a speed limit in that area? I there a speed limit in that area? I there a speed limit in that area? I imagine imagine imagine >> there are in some places at least.

>> there are in some places at least. >> there are in some places at least. >> No, they do have rules on where what >> No, they do have rules on where what >> No, they do have rules on where what speeds you should be at in certain parts speeds you should be at in certain parts speeds you should be at in certain parts of those waters. Yeah. of those waters. Yeah. of those waters. Yeah. >> And did was it was there an indication >> And did was it was there an indication >> And did was it was there an indication in this area of that? in this area of that? in this area of that? >> No, I think he was I think he was in >> No, I think he was I think he was in >> No, I think he was I think he was in this channel where they were supposed to this channel where they were supposed to this channel where they were supposed to have a limited speed and he was above have a limited speed and he was above have a limited speed and he was above that speed. that speed. that speed. >> Okay. So, I feel like between that um >> Okay. So, I feel like between that um >> Okay. So, I feel like between that um and going on the wrong side of the and going on the wrong side of the and going on the wrong side of the channel. channel. channel. >> Yeah, I didn't add that part. He's also >> Yeah, I didn't add that part. He's also >> Yeah, I didn't add that part. He's also on the wrong side of the road when he on the wrong side of the road when he on the wrong side of the road when he blows through the stop sign, right? blows through the stop sign, right? blows through the stop sign, right? >> So, like you said, impairment or not, I >> So, like you said, impairment or not, I >> So, like you said, impairment or not, I don't I mean, maybe that doesn't matter. don't I mean, maybe that doesn't matter. don't I mean, maybe that doesn't matter. Although, there's this inevitable back Although, there's this inevitable back Although, there's this inevitable back and forth about that now. and forth about that now. and forth about that now. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They the defense is >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They the defense is >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They the defense is going to done a good job of making that going to done a good job of making that going to done a good job of making that more of the question than what the more of the question than what the more of the question than what the question should be. Last question on question should be. Last question on question should be. Last question on this. He's had some moments in court. this. He's had some moments in court. this. He's had some moments in court. Now, there was one where he kind of got Now, there was one where he kind of got Now, there was one where he kind of got into it with the prosecutor. I don't into it with the prosecutor. I don't into it with the prosecutor. I don't know if that was witnessed by the the know if that was witnessed by the the know if that was witnessed by the the jury at the time. I don't think it was. jury at the time. I don't think it was. jury at the time. I don't think it was. >> I believe it was not. >> I believe it was not. >> I believe it was not. >> But then there was his emotional kind of >> But then there was his emotional kind of >> But then there was his emotional kind of breakdown during opening statements breakdown during opening statements breakdown during opening statements where we saw, you know, we've seen it where we saw, you know, we've seen it where we saw, you know, we've seen it all over the internet now where he was all over the internet now where he was all over the internet now where he was he was beside himself in in tears that I he was beside himself in in tears that I he was beside himself in in tears that I didn't see. I don't know this man. I'm didn't see. I don't know this man. I'm didn't see. I don't know this man. I'm not trying to say he's faking it. I'm not trying to say he's faking it. I'm not trying to say he's faking it. I'm just asking you if you're a potential just asking you if you're a potential just asking you if you're a potential juror, how are you viewing that? Is that juror, how are you viewing that? Is that juror, how are you viewing that? Is that getting to you or do you look at that getting to you or do you look at that getting to you or do you look at that and go, I don't know. Doesn't seem and go, I don't know. Doesn't seem and go, I don't know. Doesn't seem genuine.

genuine. genuine. >> Um, if you're not trying to say he's >> Um, if you're not trying to say he's >> Um, if you're not trying to say he's faking it. I am. faking it. I am. faking it. I am. >> I think that is BS. I don't even know if >> I think that is BS. I don't even know if >> I think that is BS. I don't even know if I'm allowed to say that on here. I I'm allowed to say that on here. I I'm allowed to say that on here. I looked at the video so many times and I looked at the video so many times and I looked at the video so many times and I was like, was like, was like, >> interesting. No tears. And you're >> interesting. No tears. And you're >> interesting. No tears. And you're hyperventilating. And then the hyperventilating. And then the hyperventilating. And then the paramedics get called in. It's this paramedics get called in. It's this paramedics get called in. It's this whole show. Um, ridiculous to me. No, whole show. Um, ridiculous to me. No, whole show. Um, ridiculous to me. No, absolutely not. As a juror, I'd be like, absolutely not. As a juror, I'd be like, absolutely not. As a juror, I'd be like, "Seriously, you need to take some acting "Seriously, you need to take some acting "Seriously, you need to take some acting lessons because this is not I I find it lessons because this is not I I find it lessons because this is not I I find it hard, especially when you know, hard, especially when you know, hard, especially when you know, >> your defense attorney presumably has >> your defense attorney presumably has >> your defense attorney presumably has told you, you got to keep it together." told you, you got to keep it together." told you, you got to keep it together." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> No matter what emotion you have, you got >> No matter what emotion you have, you got >> No matter what emotion you have, you got to just keep it together. and knowing to just keep it together. and knowing to just keep it together. and knowing that going in it's it was like 5 minutes that going in it's it was like 5 minutes that going in it's it was like 5 minutes or 7 minutes into opening statements and or 7 minutes into opening statements and or 7 minutes into opening statements and he's already having a little meltdown he's already having a little meltdown he's already having a little meltdown >> and it's like you know you have to >> and it's like you know you have to >> and it's like you know you have to control yourself and you're doing this control yourself and you're doing this control yourself and you're doing this coincidentally enough in front of the coincidentally enough in front of the coincidentally enough in front of the jury. So I just find that a little bit jury. So I just find that a little bit jury. So I just find that a little bit hard to believe personally. hard to believe personally. hard to believe personally. >> Let's say jurors feel like you do and >> Let's say jurors feel like you do and >> Let's say jurors feel like you do and they think it's total nonsense and he they think it's total nonsense and he they think it's total nonsense and he was faking it. Do they hold that against was faking it. Do they hold that against was faking it. Do they hold that against him enough to maybe turn the tide him enough to maybe turn the tide him enough to maybe turn the tide against him in a verdict here?

against him in a verdict here? against him in a verdict here? >> I don't know if that would change the >> I don't know if that would change the >> I don't know if that would change the verdict, but I think it's going to make verdict, but I think it's going to make verdict, but I think it's going to make him not very likable. him not very likable. him not very likable. >> Yeah. Yeah. Which is not a good place to >> Yeah. Yeah. Which is not a good place to >> Yeah. Yeah. Which is not a good place to be, be, be, >> which is not a good thing. >> which is not a good thing. >> which is not a good thing. >> Right. All right. Let's uh let's we'll >> Right. All right. Let's uh let's we'll >> Right. All right. Let's uh let's we'll keep an eye on that one. Like I said, by keep an eye on that one. Like I said, by keep an eye on that one. Like I said, by the time you're listening to this, there the time you're listening to this, there the time you're listening to this, there may be a verdict, but we'll continue to may be a verdict, but we'll continue to may be a verdict, but we'll continue to watch it. In the meantime, let's move to watch it. In the meantime, let's move to watch it. In the meantime, let's move to our final case here out of Los Angeles our final case here out of Los Angeles our final case here out of Los Angeles where prosecutors have detailed the where prosecutors have detailed the where prosecutors have detailed the motives that drove the man accused of motives that drove the man accused of motives that drove the man accused of starting the Palisites fire. Jonathan starting the Palisites fire. Jonathan starting the Palisites fire. Jonathan Renderneck is facing a federal arson Renderneck is facing a federal arson Renderneck is facing a federal arson trial after the blaze that destroyed trial after the blaze that destroyed trial after the blaze that destroyed more than 20,000 acres, devastating the more than 20,000 acres, devastating the more than 20,000 acres, devastating the area. According to prosecutors, area. According to prosecutors, area. According to prosecutors, Renderneck spent New Year's Eve Renderneck spent New Year's Eve Renderneck spent New Year's Eve distressed over a failed relationship distressed over a failed relationship distressed over a failed relationship and driving Uber riders to their evening and driving Uber riders to their evening and driving Uber riders to their evening plans. Eventually, Renderneck had a drop plans. Eventually, Renderneck had a drop plans. Eventually, Renderneck had a drop off near his ex-boyfriend's house where off near his ex-boyfriend's house where off near his ex-boyfriend's house where he allegedly hiked a familiar trail and he allegedly hiked a familiar trail and he allegedly hiked a familiar trail and started a fire that would eventually started a fire that would eventually started a fire that would eventually become the Lochman fire. Prosecutors become the Lochman fire. Prosecutors become the Lochman fire. Prosecutors characterize Renderneck as lonely and characterize Renderneck as lonely and characterize Renderneck as lonely and mad at the world. However, his defense mad at the world. However, his defense mad at the world. However, his defense claims that Renderneck is being claims that Renderneck is being claims that Renderneck is being scapegoed by scapegoated, pardon me, for scapegoed by scapegoated, pardon me, for scapegoed by scapegoated, pardon me, for the LA Fire Department's failure to the LA Fire Department's failure to the LA Fire Department's failure to properly extinguish the Lockman fire.

properly extinguish the Lockman fire. properly extinguish the Lockman fire. Eventually, due to weather conditions, Eventually, due to weather conditions, Eventually, due to weather conditions, the simmering blaze grew into the the simmering blaze grew into the the simmering blaze grew into the Palisades fire that caused incalculable Palisades fire that caused incalculable Palisades fire that caused incalculable destruction. Whether jurors will be able destruction. Whether jurors will be able destruction. Whether jurors will be able to connect Renderneck to the two blazes to connect Renderneck to the two blazes to connect Renderneck to the two blazes remains to be seen, but we will continue remains to be seen, but we will continue remains to be seen, but we will continue to keep you updated on this case as it to keep you updated on this case as it to keep you updated on this case as it continues. continues. continues. This is a very interesting question. This is a very interesting question. This is a very interesting question. This is a law school question. Actually, This is a law school question. Actually, This is a law school question. Actually, this is a this I could absolutely see this is a this I could absolutely see this is a this I could absolutely see coming up on a law school exam because coming up on a law school exam because coming up on a law school exam because it talks about, it talks about, it talks about, you know, causation you know, causation you know, causation >> and and uh foreseeability, >> and and uh foreseeability, >> and and uh foreseeability, all of this stuff, right? This is this all of this stuff, right? This is this all of this stuff, right? This is this is fantastic. is fantastic. is fantastic. >> So, I've always thought this was a major >> So, I've always thought this was a major >> So, I've always thought this was a major problem for the prosecution in this problem for the prosecution in this problem for the prosecution in this case. case. case. that just so everybody listening that just so everybody listening that just so everybody listening understands, he starts, according to understands, he starts, according to understands, he starts, according to prosecutors, but I think they've got prosecutors, but I think they've got prosecutors, but I think they've got fairly solid evidence that he starts a fairly solid evidence that he starts a fairly solid evidence that he starts a fire called the Lockman fire. That fire fire called the Lockman fire. That fire fire called the Lockman fire. That fire is responded to by LA Fire Department is responded to by LA Fire Department is responded to by LA Fire Department personnel, and they quote unquote put it personnel, and they quote unquote put it personnel, and they quote unquote put it out, but it is apparently smoldering in out, but it is apparently smoldering in out, but it is apparently smoldering in the root systems, the root systems, the root systems, not like visible, but underground not like visible, but underground not like visible, but underground nearly. and it is reignited by the winds nearly. and it is reignited by the winds nearly. and it is reignited by the winds in Los Angeles that then cause the in Los Angeles that then cause the in Los Angeles that then cause the incredibly devastating Palisades fire.

incredibly devastating Palisades fire. incredibly devastating Palisades fire. So he's saying, listen, I started even So he's saying, listen, I started even So he's saying, listen, I started even if you find I started fire A, you can't if you find I started fire A, you can't if you find I started fire A, you can't hold me responsible for fire B because hold me responsible for fire B because hold me responsible for fire B because one, I think he's making the argument one, I think he's making the argument one, I think he's making the argument that they're separate fires to begin that they're separate fires to begin that they're separate fires to begin with. And then two, even if they with. And then two, even if they with. And then two, even if they weren't, it really is the problem of weren't, it really is the problem of weren't, it really is the problem of them not putting it out, not the problem them not putting it out, not the problem them not putting it out, not the problem of me starting it, which is a little of me starting it, which is a little of me starting it, which is a little less of a convincing argument. Where less of a convincing argument. Where less of a convincing argument. Where talk us through some of these issues and talk us through some of these issues and talk us through some of these issues and where you think the uh the jurors might where you think the uh the jurors might where you think the uh the jurors might land on this. land on this. land on this. >> Yeah. Um yeah, this is definitely an >> Yeah. Um yeah, this is definitely an >> Yeah. Um yeah, this is definitely an interesting one. Um I think it's Oh, interesting one. Um I think it's Oh, interesting one. Um I think it's Oh, another thing as well, which I found another thing as well, which I found another thing as well, which I found maybe would affect the jury in some way. maybe would affect the jury in some way. maybe would affect the jury in some way. Um I believe he called 911. Um I believe he called 911. Um I believe he called 911. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Over a dozen times. >> Over a dozen times. >> Over a dozen times. >> Yeah. Yeah. He called He's the one that >> Yeah. Yeah. He called He's the one that >> Yeah. Yeah. He called He's the one that would like let them know about the fire, would like let them know about the fire, would like let them know about the fire, >> right? That he supposedly set, >> right? That he supposedly set, >> right? That he supposedly set, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> So I guess I'm wondering I tried to find >> So I guess I'm wondering I tried to find >> So I guess I'm wondering I tried to find like what was the point of the first like what was the point of the first like what was the point of the first fire. Um fire. Um fire. Um >> well, he was he's admittedly mad at the >> well, he was he's admittedly mad at the >> well, he was he's admittedly mad at the world and thinks that rich people are world and thinks that rich people are world and thinks that rich people are are the cause of all his problems. So, are the cause of all his problems. So, are the cause of all his problems. So, it sounds like a part of him wanted to it sounds like a part of him wanted to it sounds like a part of him wanted to cause some destruction. And that's the cause some destruction. And that's the cause some destruction. And that's the point the prosecution's making is look, point the prosecution's making is look, point the prosecution's making is look, he got what he asked for. It just he got he got what he asked for. It just he got he got what he asked for. It just he got it a few weeks later or a few days, I it a few weeks later or a few days, I it a few weeks later or a few days, I should say.

should say. should say. >> Yeah. I mean, I also think it's a >> Yeah. I mean, I also think it's a >> Yeah. I mean, I also think it's a powerful thing. It didn't seem like powerful thing. It didn't seem like powerful thing. It didn't seem like there was I mean, I think there was like there was I mean, I think there was like there was I mean, I think there was like cell phone data um and that sort of cell phone data um and that sort of cell phone data um and that sort of thing linking him to starting the first thing linking him to starting the first thing linking him to starting the first fire. Um, but I also think it's powerful fire. Um, but I also think it's powerful fire. Um, but I also think it's powerful when when when um, one of the parties says, "Look, we um, one of the parties says, "Look, we um, one of the parties says, "Look, we can't definitively we don't have like can't definitively we don't have like can't definitively we don't have like the classic, you know, DNA, that sort of the classic, you know, DNA, that sort of the classic, you know, DNA, that sort of thing. Obviously, it's not a victim thing. Obviously, it's not a victim thing. Obviously, it's not a victim crime or a single victim crime. Um, but crime or a single victim crime. Um, but crime or a single victim crime. Um, but we don't have, you know, DNA and that we don't have, you know, DNA and that we don't have, you know, DNA and that sort of thing that's definitive. This sort of thing that's definitive. This sort of thing that's definitive. This guy did it." But we have all these other guy did it." But we have all these other guy did it." But we have all these other things that say this started from a things that say this started from a things that say this started from a man-made fire and we think that he made man-made fire and we think that he made man-made fire and we think that he made the first fire. So, put that together, the first fire. So, put that together, the first fire. So, put that together, jury. Um, but yeah, I do think there's jury. Um, but yeah, I do think there's jury. Um, but yeah, I do think there's definitely room for reasonable doubt at definitely room for reasonable doubt at definitely room for reasonable doubt at this point. this point. this point. >> We haven't I mean, I I I I think so. Um, >> We haven't I mean, I I I I think so. Um, >> We haven't I mean, I I I I think so. Um, it's going to take a lot for I think it's going to take a lot for I think it's going to take a lot for I think experts to explain going from generic to experts to explain going from generic to experts to explain going from generic to specific, what the science even is specific, what the science even is specific, what the science even is behind arson and all of that. Um, and I behind arson and all of that. Um, and I behind arson and all of that. Um, and I didn't even know, maybe this is common didn't even know, maybe this is common didn't even know, maybe this is common knowledge, I don't know. Um, that a fire knowledge, I don't know. Um, that a fire knowledge, I don't know. Um, that a fire could kind of linger below ground and could kind of linger below ground and could kind of linger below ground and then all of a su I mean, okay.

then all of a su I mean, okay. then all of a su I mean, okay. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> good. That makes me feel better about >> good. That makes me feel better about >> good. That makes me feel better about myself. myself. myself. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um, but yeah, I just I think >> Yeah. Um, but yeah, I just I think >> Yeah. Um, but yeah, I just I think that's it's a tough case. It's an that's it's a tough case. It's an that's it's a tough case. It's an interesting case. interesting case. interesting case. >> Yeah. I I it is a tough case. I think >> Yeah. I I it is a tough case. I think >> Yeah. I I it is a tough case. I think for the prosecution, >> it sounds like they have experts at >> it sounds like they have experts at least who can testify to this, right? least who can testify to this, right? least who can testify to this, right? That that let's for the moment in our That that let's for the moment in our That that let's for the moment in our discussion just say he started the discussion just say he started the discussion just say he started the Lochman fire and that the jurors aren't Lochman fire and that the jurors aren't Lochman fire and that the jurors aren't going to really have a problem with that going to really have a problem with that going to really have a problem with that because because because >> they've got his cell phone location. >> they've got his cell phone location. >> they've got his cell phone location. They've got him kind of being a a a They've got him kind of being a a a They've got him kind of being a a a pyromaniac type individual anyways. Um pyromaniac type individual anyways. Um pyromaniac type individual anyways. Um they've got him uh you know being the they've got him uh you know being the they've got him uh you know being the only person in that location. the only person in that location. the only person in that location. the fireworks that they're trying to blame fireworks that they're trying to blame fireworks that they're trying to blame it on or nowhere near. Okay, let's say it on or nowhere near. Okay, let's say it on or nowhere near. Okay, let's say they believe he started it. Now it they believe he started it. Now it they believe he started it. Now it becomes should he be re held responsible becomes should he be re held responsible becomes should he be re held responsible for the later fire. Prosecution is going for the later fire. Prosecution is going for the later fire. Prosecution is going to cause an call in expert to say this to cause an call in expert to say this to cause an call in expert to say this is how fire sometimes exists is in the is how fire sometimes exists is in the is how fire sometimes exists is in the root systems and they can flare up later root systems and they can flare up later root systems and they can flare up later on. If that is true and jurors buy that, on. If that is true and jurors buy that, on. If that is true and jurors buy that, in my view, it becomes less about in my view, it becomes less about in my view, it becomes less about um did he expect um did he expect um did he expect this other fire to take place and more this other fire to take place and more this other fire to take place and more about do we give him the benefit of the about do we give him the benefit of the about do we give him the benefit of the idea that they kind of put out the one idea that they kind of put out the one idea that they kind of put out the one like you know what I'm saying? like like you know what I'm saying? like like you know what I'm saying? like >> he started a fire, folks. And fires >> he started a fire, folks. And fires >> he started a fire, folks. And fires sometimes get out of hand and you don't sometimes get out of hand and you don't sometimes get out of hand and you don't get the benefit of the idea that they

get the benefit of the idea that they get the benefit of the idea that they may have stopped it a almost all the way may have stopped it a almost all the way may have stopped it a almost all the way the first time. You are responsible for the first time. You are responsible for the first time. You are responsible for this first domino at all. If you hadn't this first domino at all. If you hadn't this first domino at all. If you hadn't started that first fire, we'd never be started that first fire, we'd never be started that first fire, we'd never be talking about any other fires. Do you talking about any other fires. Do you talking about any other fires. Do you think that is enough for jurors? think that is enough for jurors? think that is enough for jurors? >> I I do get the argument. Um although if >> I I do get the argument. Um although if >> I I do get the argument. Um although if I was if I was um his defense attorney, I was if I was um his defense attorney, I was if I was um his defense attorney, I would say, "Yeah, this could happen." I would say, "Yeah, this could happen." I would say, "Yeah, this could happen." You know, this someone could start a You know, this someone could start a You know, this someone could start a fire. It could linger underground and fire. It could linger underground and fire. It could linger underground and erupt somewhere else. It could. erupt somewhere else. It could. erupt somewhere else. It could. >> But what evidence is there? What >> But what evidence is there? What >> But what evidence is there? What definitive evidence, what convincing definitive evidence, what convincing definitive evidence, what convincing evidence is there that it happened in evidence is there that it happened in evidence is there that it happened in this situation? this situation? this situation? >> Um I I do understand, you know, you >> Um I I do understand, you know, you >> Um I I do understand, you know, you started a fire period. We know that. Um started a fire period. We know that. Um started a fire period. We know that. Um but I do think the the you know law but I do think the the you know law but I do think the the you know law school question the causation is going school question the causation is going school question the causation is going to be an issue I think. to be an issue I think. to be an issue I think. >> Yeah. Yeah. Do you think you mentioned >> Yeah. Yeah. Do you think you mentioned >> Yeah. Yeah. Do you think you mentioned this do you think part of the problem is this do you think part of the problem is this do you think part of the problem is that fires in our kind of um that fires in our kind of um that fires in our kind of um uh layman's perspective uh layman's perspective uh layman's perspective don't seem to have as clear a beginning don't seem to have as clear a beginning don't seem to have as clear a beginning as we all might appreciate. What I mean as we all might appreciate. What I mean as we all might appreciate. What I mean by that is that, you know, I see a fire by that is that, you know, I see a fire by that is that, you know, I see a fire and I go, "How in the world are they and I go, "How in the world are they and I go, "How in the world are they going to know what started that the going to know what started that the going to know what started that the thing took place over acres?" Like, are thing took place over acres?" Like, are thing took place over acres?" Like, are you telling me they can trace it back to you telling me they can trace it back to you telling me they can trace it back to one one guy lighting a match? I'm one one guy lighting a match? I'm one one guy lighting a match? I'm wondering if that might be the same

wondering if that might be the same wondering if that might be the same thing here because there were other thing here because there were other thing here because there were other fires that started during the Palisades fires that started during the Palisades fires that started during the Palisades fire. And why are they going to say that fire. And why are they going to say that fire. And why are they going to say that they know the Palisades fire started they know the Palisades fire started they know the Palisades fire started because of the Lochman fire and not some because of the Lochman fire and not some because of the Lochman fire and not some other reason? Is that kind of where other reason? Is that kind of where other reason? Is that kind of where you're going in your you're thinking for you're going in your you're thinking for you're going in your you're thinking for the defense? the defense? the defense? >> Yes. Yes, definitely. Um and that's, you >> Yes. Yes, definitely. Um and that's, you >> Yes. Yes, definitely. Um and that's, you know, I mean, the burden, that's all it know, I mean, the burden, that's all it know, I mean, the burden, that's all it takes, right? Is that little part of takes, right? Is that little part of takes, right? Is that little part of >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> the jurors that are like, "But do we >> the jurors that are like, "But do we >> the jurors that are like, "But do we really know this for sure?" Like, why really know this for sure?" Like, why really know this for sure?" Like, why would I, would I, would I, >> you know, why would I vote to convict if >> you know, why would I vote to convict if >> you know, why would I vote to convict if we really, you know, it could be, but we really, you know, it could be, but we really, you know, it could be, but you really just can't say for sure? you really just can't say for sure? you really just can't say for sure? >> Yeah. Yeah. Really interesting case. Uh, >> Yeah. Yeah. Really interesting case. Uh, >> Yeah. Yeah. Really interesting case. Uh, and it's sad, too, because it caused so and it's sad, too, because it caused so and it's sad, too, because it caused so much destruction. I know that we want to much destruction. I know that we want to much destruction. I know that we want to we want to be able to say that we found we want to be able to say that we found we want to be able to say that we found the person responsible for all of this, the person responsible for all of this, the person responsible for all of this, but we will continue to keep our eyes on but we will continue to keep our eyes on but we will continue to keep our eyes on that one as well. But Nicole, that is that one as well. But Nicole, that is that one as well. But Nicole, that is our show for this week. Thank you so our show for this week. Thank you so our show for this week. Thank you so much for coming on. much for coming on. much for coming on. >> Tell us where can people find more about >> Tell us where can people find more about >> Tell us where can people find more about you? Do you got a social media or you? Do you got a social media or you? Do you got a social media or website you want to direct anybody website you want to direct anybody website you want to direct anybody towards?

towards? towards? >> Yeah. Um, I've got Facebook and LinkedIn >> Yeah. Um, I've got Facebook and LinkedIn >> Yeah. Um, I've got Facebook and LinkedIn because I'm I feel like I'm a boomer because I'm I feel like I'm a boomer because I'm I feel like I'm a boomer saying that. Um, just first and last saying that. Um, just first and last saying that. Um, just first and last name, Nicole Kazakov. Uh, my Instagram name, Nicole Kazakov. Uh, my Instagram name, Nicole Kazakov. Uh, my Instagram is Nicole Kazakov. is Nicole Kazakov. is Nicole Kazakov. >> Fantastic. I'm your host, Josh Ritter, >> Fantastic. I'm your host, Josh Ritter, >> Fantastic. I'm your host, Josh Ritter, who is a boomer. You can find me on who is a boomer. You can find me on who is a boomer. You can find me on Instagram and Twitter at Joshua Ritter Instagram and Twitter at Joshua Ritter Instagram and Twitter at Joshua Ritter ESQ. And if you want to hear my thoughts ESQ. And if you want to hear my thoughts ESQ. And if you want to hear my thoughts and coverage on even more true crime and coverage on even more true crime and coverage on even more true crime cases, you can check out my new YouTube cases, you can check out my new YouTube cases, you can check out my new YouTube channel, Courtroom Confidential. And if channel, Courtroom Confidential. And if channel, Courtroom Confidential. And if you uh and of course, you can find all you uh and of course, you can find all you uh and of course, you can find all of our sidebar episodes wherever you get of our sidebar episodes wherever you get of our sidebar episodes wherever you get your podcast. And we would love to hear your podcast. And we would love to hear your podcast. And we would love to hear from you. If you've got questions or from you. If you've got questions or from you. If you've got questions or comments you'd like us to address, comments you'd like us to address, comments you'd like us to address, please tweet us your questions with the please tweet us your questions with the please tweet us your questions with the hashtag TCN sidebar. And thank you for hashtag TCN sidebar. And thank you for hashtag TCN sidebar. And thank you for joining us at the True Crime News joining us at the True Crime News joining us at the True Crime News Sidebar.