D4vd to face jury for teen’s murder, dismemberment; Could Bryan Kohberger get a new trial?

A word of warning, this podcast explores A word of warning, this podcast explores graphic and disturbing stories and graphic and disturbing stories and graphic and disturbing stories and includes some strong language. It includes some strong language. It includes some strong language. It therefore may not be suitable for our therefore may not be suitable for our therefore may not be suitable for our young listeners or other folks who may young listeners or other folks who may young listeners or other folks who may find it disturbing. [music] find it disturbing. [music] find it disturbing. [music] >> Hello and welcome to The Sidebar >> Hello and welcome to The Sidebar >> Hello and welcome to The Sidebar presented by True Crime News taking you presented by True Crime News taking you presented by True Crime News taking you inside the courtrooms of high-profile inside the courtrooms of high-profile inside the courtrooms of high-profile and notorious cases from across the and notorious cases from across the and notorious cases from across the country. I'm your host Joshua Ritter. country. I'm your host Joshua Ritter. country. I'm your host Joshua Ritter. I'm a criminal defense lawyer based in I'm a criminal defense lawyer based in I'm a criminal defense lawyer based in Los Angeles and previously an LA County Los Angeles and previously an LA County Los Angeles and previously an LA County prosecutor for a decade. We're recording prosecutor for a decade. We're recording prosecutor for a decade. We're recording this on Tuesday, July 28th, 2026. In this on Tuesday, July 28th, 2026. In this on Tuesday, July 28th, 2026. In this week's episode, Lindsay Clancy's this week's episode, Lindsay Clancy's this week's episode, Lindsay Clancy's ongoing trial as the mother accused of ongoing trial as the mother accused of ongoing trial as the mother accused of strangling her three children faces strangling her three children faces strangling her three children faces testimony from her ex-husband. Plus testimony from her ex-husband. Plus testimony from her ex-husband. Plus Brian Kohberger's attempt to withdraw Brian Kohberger's attempt to withdraw Brian Kohberger's attempt to withdraw his guilty plea in the Idaho murders. his guilty plea in the Idaho murders. his guilty plea in the Idaho murders. But first, singer David is headed to But first, singer David is headed to But first, singer David is headed to trial for the alleged murder and trial for the alleged murder and trial for the alleged murder and dismemberment of a teen. Today we're dismemberment of a teen. Today we're dismemberment of a teen. Today we're joined by Randolph Rice, an attorney and joined by Randolph Rice, an attorney and joined by Randolph Rice, an attorney and legal analyst analyst you can catch on legal analyst analyst you can catch on legal analyst analyst you can catch on CBS, Fox News Nation, and many other CBS, Fox News Nation, and many other CBS, Fox News Nation, and many other media outlets. Randolph, welcome my media outlets. Randolph, welcome my media outlets. Randolph, welcome my friend. How are you?

friend. How are you? friend. How are you? >> I'm great. Thanks for having me on today >> I'm great. Thanks for having me on today >> I'm great. Thanks for having me on today on these uh really high-profile on these uh really high-profile on these uh really high-profile uh popular among the true crime uh popular among the true crime uh popular among the true crime community cases that everybody's talking community cases that everybody's talking community cases that everybody's talking about right now. And boy, are they some about right now. And boy, are they some about right now. And boy, are they some gruesome ones that we're looking at gruesome ones that we're looking at gruesome ones that we're looking at here. These are not the run-of-the-mill here. These are not the run-of-the-mill here. These are not the run-of-the-mill crimes. crimes. crimes. >> No, they're not. As if there is a >> No, they're not. As if there is a >> No, they're not. As if there is a run-of-the-mill crime, but these are run-of-the-mill crime, but these are run-of-the-mill crime, but these are certainly stand out amongst the stuff certainly stand out amongst the stuff certainly stand out amongst the stuff that we usually talk about in how that we usually talk about in how that we usually talk about in how graphic they are and how especially in graphic they are and how especially in graphic they are and how especially in the case of Lindsay Clancy that we're the case of Lindsay Clancy that we're the case of Lindsay Clancy that we're going to get to in a moment, how it going to get to in a moment, how it going to get to in a moment, how it seems to really have struck a chord with seems to really have struck a chord with seems to really have struck a chord with a lot of people. People feel very a lot of people. People feel very a lot of people. People feel very strongly about that case. strongly about that case. strongly about that case. Um we'll get into all of it, but first Um we'll get into all of it, but first Um we'll get into all of it, but first let's jump to Los Angeles, California let's jump to Los Angeles, California let's jump to Los Angeles, California where after 5 days of detailed and where after 5 days of detailed and where after 5 days of detailed and sometimes gruesome testimony, a judge sometimes gruesome testimony, a judge sometimes gruesome testimony, a judge found probable cause to put singer David found probable cause to put singer David found probable cause to put singer David on trial. The musician, legal name David on trial. The musician, legal name David on trial. The musician, legal name David Burke, is accused of killing teen Burke, is accused of killing teen Burke, is accused of killing teen Celeste Riveras Hernandez after she Celeste Riveras Hernandez after she Celeste Riveras Hernandez after she threatened to expose their illicit threatened to expose their illicit threatened to expose their illicit relationship. Burke showed no emotion relationship. Burke showed no emotion relationship. Burke showed no emotion when the ruling was handed down and when the ruling was handed down and when the ruling was handed down and largely remained stoic as prosecutors largely remained stoic as prosecutors largely remained stoic as prosecutors outlined some of their evidence in the outlined some of their evidence in the outlined some of their evidence in the case. This included graphic photos of case. This included graphic photos of case. This included graphic photos of Reavis' body, details of the pair's Reavis' body, details of the pair's Reavis' body, details of the pair's sexual relationship including an alleged sexual relationship including an alleged sexual relationship including an alleged abortion when the girl was just 13, plus abortion when the girl was just 13, plus abortion when the girl was just 13, plus thousands of texts. One night before she thousands of texts. One night before she thousands of texts. One night before she was killed, Reavis allegedly texted was killed, Reavis allegedly texted was killed, Reavis allegedly texted Burke, "I will end your career and your Burke, "I will end your career and your Burke, "I will end your career and your life." referencing Burke's surging life." referencing Burke's surging life." referencing Burke's surging popularity and the potential financial popularity and the potential financial popularity and the potential financial motive alleged by prosecutors. While no motive alleged by prosecutors. While no motive alleged by prosecutors. While no trial date is yet scheduled, Burke will trial date is yet scheduled, Burke will trial date is yet scheduled, Burke will appear in court on August 31st for an

appear in court on August 31st for an appear in court on August 31st for an arraignment and we will continue to keep arraignment and we will continue to keep arraignment and we will continue to keep you all updated. Um, I'm curious, where you all updated. Um, I'm curious, where you all updated. Um, I'm curious, where you practice, uh, Randolph, do they have you practice, uh, Randolph, do they have you practice, uh, Randolph, do they have prelims? Cuz we we've been talking with prelims? Cuz we we've been talking with prelims? Cuz we we've been talking with other attorneys and it's not across the other attorneys and it's not across the other attorneys and it's not across the United States that the prelim is used, United States that the prelim is used, United States that the prelim is used, but if you do, tell us about how it is but if you do, tell us about how it is but if you do, tell us about how it is usually used and the standard just for usually used and the standard just for usually used and the standard just for the listeners' understanding. the listeners' understanding. the listeners' understanding. >> Yeah, [snorts] in Maryland we do have >> Yeah, [snorts] in Maryland we do have >> Yeah, [snorts] in Maryland we do have the preliminary hearing. I don't find it the preliminary hearing. I don't find it the preliminary hearing. I don't find it to be used as often in big high-profile to be used as often in big high-profile to be used as often in big high-profile cases, but also it may be a little cases, but also it may be a little cases, but also it may be a little different because of the fact that we different because of the fact that we different because of the fact that we don't get as much TV coverage in don't get as much TV coverage in don't get as much TV coverage in Maryland because we are one of the few Maryland because we are one of the few Maryland because we are one of the few states that do not allow TV cameras states that do not allow TV cameras states that do not allow TV cameras inside of the courtroom. inside of the courtroom. inside of the courtroom. Most cases are taken before a grand jury Most cases are taken before a grand jury Most cases are taken before a grand jury in Maryland if they are serious and a in Maryland if they are serious and a in Maryland if they are serious and a grand jury is uh a secret hearing where grand jury is uh a secret hearing where grand jury is uh a secret hearing where the prosecutor presents evidence to this the prosecutor presents evidence to this the prosecutor presents evidence to this group of, you know, could be 12, 24, group of, you know, could be 12, 24, group of, you know, could be 12, 24, however many people are seated, and however many people are seated, and however many people are seated, and those people decide if there's probable those people decide if there's probable those people decide if there's probable cause. But in this situation, as you cause. But in this situation, as you cause. But in this situation, as you mentioned, the preliminary hearing, mentioned, the preliminary hearing, mentioned, the preliminary hearing, which we do have here, which we do have here, which we do have here, you have to convince a judge of that you have to convince a judge of that you have to convince a judge of that very low standard of probable cause, very low standard of probable cause, very low standard of probable cause, which is just more likely than not, you which is just more likely than not, you which is just more likely than not, you know, and and it's very relaxed and you know, and and it's very relaxed and you know, and and it's very relaxed and you know, you I'm sure you've done hundreds know, you I'm sure you've done hundreds know, you I'm sure you've done hundreds of them yourself where it the prosecutor of them yourself where it the prosecutor of them yourself where it the prosecutor comes in, and most of them, by the way, comes in, and most of them, by the way, comes in, and most of them, by the way, they take maybe an hour or two. They they take maybe an hour or two. They they take maybe an hour or two. They don't take 5 days, right? But we've been don't take 5 days, right? But we've been don't take 5 days, right? But we've been seeing this more often in these high seeing this more often in these high seeing this more often in these high profile cases where the prosecution has profile cases where the prosecution has profile cases where the prosecution has been putting on 5 days of testimony. Um been putting on 5 days of testimony. Um been putting on 5 days of testimony. Um the police usually call a couple the police usually call a couple the police usually call a couple witnesses, the lead detective. Hearsay

witnesses, the lead detective. Hearsay witnesses, the lead detective. Hearsay is admissible in most situations, so the is admissible in most situations, so the is admissible in most situations, so the detective can tell uh what somebody else detective can tell uh what somebody else detective can tell uh what somebody else said. And then the judge determines, you said. And then the judge determines, you said. And then the judge determines, you know, I think there's enough here to know, I think there's enough here to know, I think there's enough here to move forward. 99.9% move forward. 99.9% move forward. 99.9% of the time you succeed that the of the time you succeed that the of the time you succeed that the prosecution succeeds at the preliminary prosecution succeeds at the preliminary prosecution succeeds at the preliminary hearing and the case moves on to the hearing and the case moves on to the hearing and the case moves on to the next phase. So, and again, that's what next phase. So, and again, that's what next phase. So, and again, that's what happened here. happened here. happened here. >> Yeah. A and it is funny that they chose >> Yeah. A and it is funny that they chose >> Yeah. A and it is funny that they chose a prelim here because I agree with you. a prelim here because I agree with you. a prelim here because I agree with you. I think it works the same in California I think it works the same in California I think it works the same in California where if it's kind of a more complex or where if it's kind of a more complex or where if it's kind of a more complex or high profile case, they might sometimes high profile case, they might sometimes high profile case, they might sometimes opt for the grand jury just because the opt for the grand jury just because the opt for the grand jury just because the proceedings are secret and they have a proceedings are secret and they have a proceedings are secret and they have a little bit more control over little bit more control over little bit more control over uh the witnesses that they bring in. uh the witnesses that they bring in. uh the witnesses that they bring in. Interestingly in this case, they used Interestingly in this case, they used Interestingly in this case, they used the grand jury but only for the grand jury but only for the grand jury but only for investigative purposes. They didn't ask investigative purposes. They didn't ask investigative purposes. They didn't ask that jury to return an indictment. that jury to return an indictment. that jury to return an indictment. Instead, after the grand jury conducted Instead, after the grand jury conducted Instead, after the grand jury conducted their investigation, they used that to their investigation, they used that to their investigation, they used that to make the arrest and then they went to make the arrest and then they went to make the arrest and then they went to prelim. prelim. prelim. But at prelim, like you said, 99% of the But at prelim, like you said, 99% of the But at prelim, like you said, 99% of the time it goes through. So, what is the time it goes through. So, what is the time it goes through. So, what is the defense trying to accomplish? Are they defense trying to accomplish? Are they defense trying to accomplish? Are they just sitting back and listening to what just sitting back and listening to what just sitting back and listening to what the the prosecution is putting on?

the the prosecution is putting on? the the prosecution is putting on? >> Well, [snorts] that and that's a lot of >> Well, [snorts] that and that's a lot of >> Well, [snorts] that and that's a lot of it. And and what defense attorneys will it. And and what defense attorneys will it. And and what defense attorneys will do, they use these for a couple do, they use these for a couple do, they use these for a couple different purposes. One is this is a different purposes. One is this is a different purposes. One is this is a free chance to collect information, to free chance to collect information, to free chance to collect information, to to cross-examine witnesses. So, the to cross-examine witnesses. So, the to cross-examine witnesses. So, the first part is you want to get first part is you want to get first part is you want to get information from the detectives and sort information from the detectives and sort information from the detectives and sort of lock them into that story. And it's a of lock them into that story. And it's a of lock them into that story. And it's a free bite at the apple as to what really free bite at the apple as to what really free bite at the apple as to what really happened. Give me some more information. happened. Give me some more information. happened. Give me some more information. Let me dig a little deeper. And then the Let me dig a little deeper. And then the Let me dig a little deeper. And then the second one is, and I think that's what second one is, and I think that's what second one is, and I think that's what they did in this in this David Berkowitz they did in this in this David Berkowitz they did in this in this David Berkowitz preliminary hearing was let's lock preliminary hearing was let's lock preliminary hearing was let's lock witnesses into their stories because if witnesses into their stories because if witnesses into their stories because if they say something different 6 months they say something different 6 months they say something different 6 months from now at trial, we can impeach them from now at trial, we can impeach them from now at trial, we can impeach them and we can show a that they're lying. and we can show a that they're lying. and we can show a that they're lying. And if this person's lying, maybe And if this person's lying, maybe And if this person's lying, maybe somebody else is lying, and there's that somebody else is lying, and there's that somebody else is lying, and there's that sort of slippery slope defense attorneys sort of slippery slope defense attorneys sort of slippery slope defense attorneys are always hoping for. A line that we are always hoping for. A line that we are always hoping for. A line that we always use around here, and I know always use around here, and I know always use around here, and I know you'll like this one is I often use this you'll like this one is I often use this you'll like this one is I often use this is they might be playing for fumbles is they might be playing for fumbles is they might be playing for fumbles though in this case because it seems though in this case because it seems though in this case because it seems like a pretty good case for the like a pretty good case for the like a pretty good case for the prosecution at this point. prosecution at this point. prosecution at this point. >> I do like that, and I'm going to steal >> I do like that, and I'm going to steal >> I do like that, and I'm going to steal it from you, but I'll I'll try to credit it from you, but I'll I'll try to credit it from you, but I'll I'll try to credit you where I can. Um you where I can. Um you where I can. Um in this case in this case in this case one weakness I can see, and I'm curious one weakness I can see, and I'm curious one weakness I can see, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts or if you see to hear your thoughts or if you see to hear your thoughts or if you see others, but the prosecution's case by others, but the prosecution's case by others, but the prosecution's case by and large seems very strong.

and large seems very strong. and large seems very strong. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But they've charged him with >> But they've charged him with >> But they've charged him with first-degree premeditated murder along first-degree premeditated murder along first-degree premeditated murder along with three special circumstances: lying with three special circumstances: lying with three special circumstances: lying in wait, in wait, in wait, murder of a witness, and uh murder for murder of a witness, and uh murder for murder of a witness, and uh murder for financial gain. financial gain. financial gain. Now, in my view, if I'm in the defense Now, in my view, if I'm in the defense Now, in my view, if I'm in the defense here, I don't think you really have a here, I don't think you really have a here, I don't think you really have a shot of proving he wasn't the one that shot of proving he wasn't the one that shot of proving he wasn't the one that did it with the amount of testimony that did it with the amount of testimony that did it with the amount of testimony that we've heard. Maybe maybe not. Maybe I'm we've heard. Maybe maybe not. Maybe I'm we've heard. Maybe maybe not. Maybe I'm overestimating overestimating overestimating that. that. that. >> have a I I have a theory, but I'll give >> have a I I have a theory, but I'll give >> have a I I have a theory, but I'll give I'll give it to you my answer. I'll give it to you my answer. I'll give it to you my answer. >> Then I would love to hear it. [laughter] >> Then I would love to hear it. [laughter] >> Then I would love to hear it. [laughter] But my in my view, I think they have a But my in my view, I think they have a But my in my view, I think they have a they do have a case to make an argument they do have a case to make an argument they do have a case to make an argument that, "Hey, this wasn't pre-planned. She that, "Hey, this wasn't pre-planned. She that, "Hey, this wasn't pre-planned. She showed up, and one thing led to another, showed up, and one thing led to another, showed up, and one thing led to another, and it got way out of hand. And yes, I and it got way out of hand. And yes, I and it got way out of hand. And yes, I took her life, but this is much more took her life, but this is much more took her life, but this is much more along the lines of a manslaughter." Yes, along the lines of a manslaughter." Yes, along the lines of a manslaughter." Yes, that gives up prison time, but it that gives up prison time, but it that gives up prison time, but it doesn't give up the death penalty. It doesn't give up the death penalty. It doesn't give up the death penalty. It doesn't give up special circumstances. doesn't give up special circumstances. doesn't give up special circumstances. It seems like that might be a close or It seems like that might be a close or It seems like that might be a close or win, but you might even think there's win, but you might even think there's win, but you might even think there's more at work here. more at work here. more at work here. >> Well, I do. And let me address your >> Well, I do. And let me address your >> Well, I do. And let me address your question first is I think the financial question first is I think the financial question first is I think the financial crimes is going to be difficult. Um crimes is going to be difficult. Um crimes is going to be difficult. Um they're probably their best they're probably their best they're probably their best for the special circumstances is going for the special circumstances is going for the special circumstances is going to be the lying wait if they can to be the lying wait if they can to be the lying wait if they can establish that he brought her over with establish that he brought her over with establish that he brought her over with that Uber that ride-share ride, and then that Uber that ride-share ride, and then that Uber that ride-share ride, and then that was the purpose of what he was that was the purpose of what he was that was the purpose of what he was going to do here.

going to do here. going to do here. This didn't come out in the preliminary, This didn't come out in the preliminary, This didn't come out in the preliminary, and this is something I've been debating and this is something I've been debating and this is something I've been debating with other people on different networks with other people on different networks with other people on different networks about this and saying about this and saying about this and saying this preliminary did not connect the this preliminary did not connect the this preliminary did not connect the dots between the things that they were dots between the things that they were dots between the things that they were trying to show. For example, trying to show. For example, trying to show. For example, they say he ordered all these things off they say he ordered all these things off they say he ordered all these things off of Amazon. Well, it was done with an of Amazon. Well, it was done with an of Amazon. Well, it was done with an alias, and the problem that I have as a alias, and the problem that I have as a alias, and the problem that I have as a defense attorney, and again, maybe they defense attorney, and again, maybe they defense attorney, and again, maybe they can make this connection, is how can you can make this connection, is how can you can make this connection, is how can you prove that he was the one that was prove that he was the one that was prove that he was the one that was clicking the buttons ordering these clicking the buttons ordering these clicking the buttons ordering these items back to the house. items back to the house. items back to the house. Um, the uh passport that was found on Um, the uh passport that was found on Um, the uh passport that was found on the roadside, you know, this was handled the roadside, you know, this was handled the roadside, you know, this was handled by a Department of Works employee by a Department of Works employee by a Department of Works employee bare-handed. It was, you know, bare-handed. It was, you know, bare-handed. It was, you know, there's some issues about fingerprints there's some issues about fingerprints there's some issues about fingerprints never taken, you know, these are issues never taken, you know, these are issues never taken, you know, these are issues that that the state may have moving that that the state may have moving that that the state may have moving forward. Now, they may have this forward. Now, they may have this forward. Now, they may have this evidence, and they may be able to make evidence, and they may be able to make evidence, and they may be able to make this connection, but there's there's an this connection, but there's there's an this connection, but there's there's an other wrinkle to this whole thing is he other wrinkle to this whole thing is he other wrinkle to this whole thing is he had a lot of handlers. He had a lot of had a lot of handlers. He had a lot of had a lot of handlers. He had a lot of people around him doing things for him, people around him doing things for him, people around him doing things for him, taking care of his issues and problems, taking care of his issues and problems, taking care of his issues and problems, and that really came forward when they and that really came forward when they and that really came forward when they brought the financial uh individuals brought the financial uh individuals brought the financial uh individuals from Interscope, his record company, from Interscope, his record company, from Interscope, his record company, forward, and they really kind of I think forward, and they really kind of I think forward, and they really kind of I think sussed out the fact that he really sussed out the fact that he really sussed out the fact that he really didn't know what was going on with his didn't know what was going on with his didn't know what was going on with his finances. Well, how many other things in finances. Well, how many other things in finances. Well, how many other things in his life did he not know what was going his life did he not know what was going his life did he not know what was going on, and could there have been any on, and could there have been any on, and could there have been any hanger-on, any, you know, one of these hanger-on, any, you know, one of these hanger-on, any, you know, one of these groupies, or whatever they want to call groupies, or whatever they want to call groupies, or whatever they want to call them, that might have been involved in them, that might have been involved in them, that might have been involved in this more so than the prosecution this more so than the prosecution this more so than the prosecution thinks. So, again, that's a theory based thinks. So, again, that's a theory based thinks. So, again, that's a theory based on what I've heard so far in the on what I've heard so far in the on what I've heard so far in the preliminary hearing, but I'm sure the preliminary hearing, but I'm sure the preliminary hearing, but I'm sure the prosecution's going to probably uh prosecution's going to probably uh prosecution's going to probably uh refute that at the actual trial.

refute that at the actual trial. refute that at the actual trial. >> What you're describing is what they have >> What you're describing is what they have >> What you're describing is what they have is a circumstantial case right now. They is a circumstantial case right now. They is a circumstantial case right now. They have a case where it seems like a lot of have a case where it seems like a lot of have a case where it seems like a lot of uh evidence seems to point towards the uh evidence seems to point towards the uh evidence seems to point towards the idea that he's the one that likely did idea that he's the one that likely did idea that he's the one that likely did it, a lot of that being motivation it, a lot of that being motivation it, a lot of that being motivation evidence, but they don't have any direct evidence, but they don't have any direct evidence, but they don't have any direct evidence. There's certainly not any kind evidence. There's certainly not any kind evidence. There's certainly not any kind of confession that we've heard of, and of confession that we've heard of, and of confession that we've heard of, and there's certainly not any kind of there's certainly not any kind of there's certainly not any kind of videotape that we've heard about, which videotape that we've heard about, which videotape that we've heard about, which makes me think, kind of dovetailing off makes me think, kind of dovetailing off makes me think, kind of dovetailing off of the point that you just made, I of the point that you just made, I of the point that you just made, I wonder if there is another witness. If wonder if there is another witness. If wonder if there is another witness. If in that grand jury investigation, if in that grand jury investigation, if in that grand jury investigation, if there was someone who like one of his there was someone who like one of his there was someone who like one of his handlers that may have seen something, handlers that may have seen something, handlers that may have seen something, heard something, put together some heard something, put together some heard something, put together some pieces behind the scenes that more pieces behind the scenes that more pieces behind the scenes that more directly connects him to this murder. directly connects him to this murder. directly connects him to this murder. Now, if that's true, we don't know, but Now, if that's true, we don't know, but Now, if that's true, we don't know, but assuming it might be true, what would be assuming it might be true, what would be assuming it might be true, what would be the advantage to the prosecution not the advantage to the prosecution not the advantage to the prosecution not calling that important witness during calling that important witness during calling that important witness during the prelim and saving them instead for the prelim and saving them instead for the prelim and saving them instead for trial? trial? trial? >> Yeah, well, this goes back to the to the >> Yeah, well, this goes back to the to the >> Yeah, well, this goes back to the to the point previously is that the defense point previously is that the defense point previously is that the defense doesn't get to lock him into his story. doesn't get to lock him into his story. doesn't get to lock him into his story. They don't get a free crack at asking They don't get a free crack at asking They don't get a free crack at asking him questions and so he's fresh or she's him questions and so he's fresh or she's him questions and so he's fresh or she's fresh if they do actually have this fresh if they do actually have this fresh if they do actually have this witness at the trial itself. And the witness at the trial itself. And the witness at the trial itself. And the defense knows or at least is going to defense knows or at least is going to defense knows or at least is going to know about this person through the know about this person through the know about this person through the discovery process and there's going to discovery process and there's going to discovery process and there's going to be a police interview and probably a a be a police interview and probably a a be a police interview and probably a a video or taped interview with this video or taped interview with this video or taped interview with this witness. So, they've got at least the witness. So, they've got at least the witness. So, they've got at least the story that they're going to tell on the story that they're going to tell on the story that they're going to tell on the stand if there is a witness that really stand if there is a witness that really stand if there is a witness that really ties David Burke to this whole thing ties David Burke to this whole thing ties David Burke to this whole thing because right now, you're right. It is a because right now, you're right. It is a because right now, you're right. It is a circumstantial evidence from what we circumstantial evidence from what we circumstantial evidence from what we know today.

know today. know today. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's also fascinating case and also like It's also fascinating case and also like It's also fascinating case and also like you said at the onset of this, a very you said at the onset of this, a very you said at the onset of this, a very brutal case. So, we'll continue to keep brutal case. So, we'll continue to keep brutal case. So, we'll continue to keep our eyes on it. He'll be back in court our eyes on it. He'll be back in court our eyes on it. He'll be back in court on August 31st. Let's move to Plymouth, on August 31st. Let's move to Plymouth, on August 31st. Let's move to Plymouth, Massachusetts where the trial of a Massachusetts where the trial of a Massachusetts where the trial of a mother accused of strangling her three mother accused of strangling her three mother accused of strangling her three young children opened this week with young children opened this week with young children opened this week with testimony from the defendant's former testimony from the defendant's former testimony from the defendant's former husband. In the wake of his children's husband. In the wake of his children's husband. In the wake of his children's deaths, Patrick Clancy public publicly deaths, Patrick Clancy public publicly deaths, Patrick Clancy public publicly defended his then wife, Lindsay Clancy, defended his then wife, Lindsay Clancy, defended his then wife, Lindsay Clancy, even forgiving the woman and urging the even forgiving the woman and urging the even forgiving the woman and urging the public to do the same. That, however, public to do the same. That, however, public to do the same. That, however, didn't stop prosecutors from bringing didn't stop prosecutors from bringing didn't stop prosecutors from bringing Patrick to the stand to describe his Patrick to the stand to describe his Patrick to the stand to describe his former wife's mental state in the days former wife's mental state in the days former wife's mental state in the days leading up to the heinous killings. The leading up to the heinous killings. The leading up to the heinous killings. The defense maintains that Clancy was defense maintains that Clancy was defense maintains that Clancy was suffering from severe postpartum suffering from severe postpartum suffering from severe postpartum psychosis, an extreme mental illness at psychosis, an extreme mental illness at psychosis, an extreme mental illness at the time, making her unaware of her the time, making her unaware of her the time, making her unaware of her actions. Meanwhile, prosecutors claim actions. Meanwhile, prosecutors claim actions. Meanwhile, prosecutors claim that Clancy's intentions were crystal that Clancy's intentions were crystal that Clancy's intentions were crystal clear when she quote deliberately and clear when she quote deliberately and clear when she quote deliberately and meticulously took the lives of her three meticulously took the lives of her three meticulously took the lives of her three children. Patrick became emotional on children. Patrick became emotional on children. Patrick became emotional on the stand as he spoke of the young the stand as he spoke of the young the stand as he spoke of the young victims, Cora Dawson and Callan, victims, Cora Dawson and Callan, victims, Cora Dawson and Callan, detailing Clancy's final days with their detailing Clancy's final days with their detailing Clancy's final days with their kids. Patrick believed Clancy was having kids. Patrick believed Clancy was having kids. Patrick believed Clancy was having one of the best days, even building a one of the best days, even building a one of the best days, even building a snowman and playing with the couple's snowman and playing with the couple's snowman and playing with the couple's children. After multiple children. After multiple children. After multiple hospitalizations and psychiatric issues, hospitalizations and psychiatric issues, hospitalizations and psychiatric issues, Patrick thought his wife was turning a Patrick thought his wife was turning a Patrick thought his wife was turning a corner and had no reservations about corner and had no reservations about corner and had no reservations about leaving Clancy unsupervised with their leaving Clancy unsupervised with their leaving Clancy unsupervised with their children, which would be the last time children, which would be the last time children, which would be the last time he saw them alive. Clancy dabbed tears he saw them alive. Clancy dabbed tears he saw them alive. Clancy dabbed tears from her eyes during Patrick's testimony

from her eyes during Patrick's testimony from her eyes during Patrick's testimony as the emotional case continued. This as the emotional case continued. This as the emotional case continued. This one is really difficult to get to. I one is really difficult to get to. I one is really difficult to get to. I don't know how much of it you've been don't know how much of it you've been don't know how much of it you've been watching, but it is really tugging at watching, but it is really tugging at watching, but it is really tugging at the heartstrings of a lot of folks the heartstrings of a lot of folks the heartstrings of a lot of folks watching this. watching this. watching this. And to call Patrick as the very first And to call Patrick as the very first And to call Patrick as the very first witness is a interesting strategic witness is a interesting strategic witness is a interesting strategic decision by the prosecution. He's been decision by the prosecution. He's been decision by the prosecution. He's been very supportive of his wife. Do you very supportive of his wife. Do you very supportive of his wife. Do you think that is playing out well for the think that is playing out well for the think that is playing out well for the prosecution having someone so supportive prosecution having someone so supportive prosecution having someone so supportive and so emotionally and so emotionally and so emotionally empathetic to the defense as their first empathetic to the defense as their first empathetic to the defense as their first witness? witness? witness? >> Yeah, [snorts] risky move on the part of >> Yeah, [snorts] risky move on the part of >> Yeah, [snorts] risky move on the part of the prosecution, but I'm sure they have the prosecution, but I'm sure they have the prosecution, but I'm sure they have thought this through. And you're exactly thought this through. And you're exactly thought this through. And you're exactly right. I mean, he is he can be dangerous right. I mean, he is he can be dangerous right. I mean, he is he can be dangerous for both sides depending on what he says for both sides depending on what he says for both sides depending on what he says and how it gets interpreted by this and how it gets interpreted by this and how it gets interpreted by this jury, which we all know is got 12 women jury, which we all know is got 12 women jury, which we all know is got 12 women and six men, which I think plays well and six men, which I think plays well and six men, which I think plays well for the defense. I mean, this is a case, for the defense. I mean, this is a case, for the defense. I mean, this is a case, as you said, this touches many, many as you said, this touches many, many as you said, this touches many, many people in America because if you're a people in America because if you're a people in America because if you're a parent either a mother or a father, and parent either a mother or a father, and parent either a mother or a father, and if you're a mother and you've had little if you're a mother and you've had little if you're a mother and you've had little kids and you've gone through tough kids and you've gone through tough kids and you've gone through tough times, this may resonate with those times, this may resonate with those times, this may resonate with those people and maybe resonates with some of people and maybe resonates with some of people and maybe resonates with some of those people on that jury that are women those people on that jury that are women those people on that jury that are women or maybe even resonates with some that or maybe even resonates with some that or maybe even resonates with some that are men who have had wives who have gone are men who have had wives who have gone are men who have had wives who have gone through these situations after birth.

through these situations after birth. through these situations after birth. So, it is a tough situation. I I I'm So, it is a tough situation. I I I'm So, it is a tough situation. I I I'm going to watch it closely. I've been going to watch it closely. I've been going to watch it closely. I've been watching his first day. I know he's watching his first day. I know he's watching his first day. I know he's going to testify again later this week. going to testify again later this week. going to testify again later this week. What I'm really interested in seeing is What I'm really interested in seeing is What I'm really interested in seeing is the cross-examination of Patrick Clancy the cross-examination of Patrick Clancy the cross-examination of Patrick Clancy because that is really going to be because that is really going to be because that is really going to be important to establish what mindset she important to establish what mindset she important to establish what mindset she was in. And I don't think it's the was in. And I don't think it's the was in. And I don't think it's the mindset when he left the house that day mindset when he left the house that day mindset when he left the house that day to go get the food. I think it's the to go get the food. I think it's the to go get the food. I think it's the mindset in the days and weeks prior to mindset in the days and weeks prior to mindset in the days and weeks prior to this. And remember, she was just this. And remember, she was just this. And remember, she was just released from a mental health hospital a released from a mental health hospital a released from a mental health hospital a couple weeks before this. So, that is couple weeks before this. So, that is couple weeks before this. So, that is that timeline and what exactly he saw is that timeline and what exactly he saw is that timeline and what exactly he saw is very important. But at the end of the very important. But at the end of the very important. But at the end of the day, this is going to be a battle, I day, this is going to be a battle, I day, this is going to be a battle, I think, of the of the experts. think, of the of the experts. think, of the of the experts. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Speaking of interesting strategic Speaking of interesting strategic Speaking of interesting strategic decisions by the prosecution, they have decisions by the prosecution, they have decisions by the prosecution, they have decided to not just say that decided to not just say that decided to not just say that Lindsay Clancy's mental health issues Lindsay Clancy's mental health issues Lindsay Clancy's mental health issues were did not rise to the level to excuse were did not rise to the level to excuse were did not rise to the level to excuse her from criminal culpability here. her from criminal culpability here. her from criminal culpability here. They're saying it's all fake. They're They're saying it's all fake. They're They're saying it's all fake. They're saying none of it's real, that she saying none of it's real, that she saying none of it's real, that she wasn't really suffering from any kind of wasn't really suffering from any kind of wasn't really suffering from any kind of psychosis, that she was getting all of psychosis, that she was getting all of psychosis, that she was getting all of these pills and some sort of drug these pills and some sort of drug these pills and some sort of drug chasing effort. I'm not quite sure chasing effort. I'm not quite sure chasing effort. I'm not quite sure exactly what the theory is there. And exactly what the theory is there. And exactly what the theory is there. And they're even saying that her alleged they're even saying that her alleged they're even saying that her alleged attempt to take her own life was also attempt to take her own life was also attempt to take her own life was also fake.

fake. fake. I'm curious as to hear your thoughts on I'm curious as to hear your thoughts on I'm curious as to hear your thoughts on that cuz I feel like strategically they that cuz I feel like strategically they that cuz I feel like strategically they don't need to go that far to still prove don't need to go that far to still prove don't need to go that far to still prove their case. their case. their case. >> Uh and I think you're right. And so, >> Uh and I think you're right. And so, >> Uh and I think you're right. And so, just to juxtapose that, think about how just to juxtapose that, think about how just to juxtapose that, think about how the defense has walked into this. The the defense has walked into this. The the defense has walked into this. The defense has come in this and said in defense has come in this and said in defense has come in this and said in openings, she killed her children. We openings, she killed her children. We openings, she killed her children. We are not denying that. But what we are are not denying that. But what we are are not denying that. But what we are saying is she was dealing with a saying is she was dealing with a saying is she was dealing with a psychotic psychosis that prevented her psychotic psychosis that prevented her psychotic psychosis that prevented her from understanding the wrongfulness of from understanding the wrongfulness of from understanding the wrongfulness of this, and therefore we're asking you to this, and therefore we're asking you to this, and therefore we're asking you to find her not criminally responsible find her not criminally responsible find her not criminally responsible because of insanity. And what that means because of insanity. And what that means because of insanity. And what that means is, instead of going to prison for the is, instead of going to prison for the is, instead of going to prison for the rest of your life, you go to to a mental rest of your life, you go to to a mental rest of your life, you go to to a mental health facility and every year you come health facility and every year you come health facility and every year you come back before the court, and the court back before the court, and the court back before the court, and the court determines if you are able to return to determines if you are able to return to determines if you are able to return to society, which the prosecutor society, which the prosecutor society, which the prosecutor prosecution doesn't want. Now, to your prosecution doesn't want. Now, to your prosecution doesn't want. Now, to your point, what the prosecution may be doing point, what the prosecution may be doing point, what the prosecution may be doing is overreaching, and that may backfire is overreaching, and that may backfire is overreaching, and that may backfire on them because they look to the defense on them because they look to the defense on them because they look to the defense and say, "Wait a second. Defense is and say, "Wait a second. Defense is and say, "Wait a second. Defense is owning up to their wrongs. They're owning up to their wrongs. They're owning up to their wrongs. They're They're owning up to what they have done They're owning up to what they have done They're owning up to what they have done or what their client has done and or what their client has done and or what their client has done and they're they're calling a spade a spade they're they're calling a spade a spade they're they're calling a spade a spade here. But, you're going a little too far here. But, you're going a little too far here. But, you're going a little too far here and you're saying she's faking this here and you're saying she's faking this here and you're saying she's faking this and she's in hospitals and she's taking and she's in hospitals and she's taking and she's in hospitals and she's taking eight medications and she's not taking eight medications and she's not taking eight medications and she's not taking the right amounts."

the right amounts." the right amounts." It just seems like they might be going a It just seems like they might be going a It just seems like they might be going a bridge too far here with this with this bridge too far here with this with this bridge too far here with this with this argument. argument. argument. >> Yeah, there's something to be said by >> Yeah, there's something to be said by >> Yeah, there's something to be said by giving a little ground that you don't giving a little ground that you don't giving a little ground that you don't necessarily need. It creates a sense of necessarily need. It creates a sense of necessarily need. It creates a sense of credibility with the jurors that, "Hey, credibility with the jurors that, "Hey, credibility with the jurors that, "Hey, I'm not trying to win every argument I'm not trying to win every argument I'm not trying to win every argument here. I'm trying to win the most here. I'm trying to win the most here. I'm trying to win the most important ones." And there is evidence important ones." And there is evidence important ones." And there is evidence to support the idea that she was to support the idea that she was to support the idea that she was suffering from some some sort of mental suffering from some some sort of mental suffering from some some sort of mental illness, crisis, whatever you want to illness, crisis, whatever you want to illness, crisis, whatever you want to call it. We're just saying that wasn't call it. We're just saying that wasn't call it. We're just saying that wasn't enough. That's the part I'm hoping you enough. That's the part I'm hoping you enough. That's the part I'm hoping you can flesh out for us a little bit. can flesh out for us a little bit. can flesh out for us a little bit. Explain to viewers and listeners how Explain to viewers and listeners how Explain to viewers and listeners how the question isn't was Lindsay Clancy the question isn't was Lindsay Clancy the question isn't was Lindsay Clancy sick. The question isn't even was sick. The question isn't even was sick. The question isn't even was Lindsay Clancy Lindsay Clancy Lindsay Clancy mentally ill, but it's a different mentally ill, but it's a different mentally ill, but it's a different question. What is that? question. What is that? question. What is that? >> Well, it is at the time of this crime, >> Well, it is at the time of this crime, >> Well, it is at the time of this crime, did she understand the wrongfulness of did she understand the wrongfulness of did she understand the wrongfulness of her actions and the implications of the her actions and the implications of the her actions and the implications of the criminality of those actions? And that's criminality of those actions? And that's criminality of those actions? And that's where the rub and that's where, you where the rub and that's where, you where the rub and that's where, you know, the prosecution and obviously the know, the prosecution and obviously the know, the prosecution and obviously the defense and by the way, Joshua, I am defense and by the way, Joshua, I am defense and by the way, Joshua, I am shocked that this case did not resolve shocked that this case did not resolve shocked that this case did not resolve in a plea. I I'm I'm really am. I mean, in a plea. I I'm I'm really am. I mean, in a plea. I I'm I'm really am. I mean, I would think a prosecutor would come to I would think a prosecutor would come to I would think a prosecutor would come to the defense say, "Look, the defense say, "Look, the defense say, "Look, take a plea, 30 years, condition you take a plea, 30 years, condition you take a plea, 30 years, condition you spend it in a mental health facility and spend it in a mental health facility and spend it in a mental health facility and we know that we're we're one, we're we know that we're we're one, we're we know that we're we're one, we're protecting society and two, you're protecting society and two, you're protecting society and two, you're getting the mental health treatment that getting the mental health treatment that getting the mental health treatment that you need." Instead of we're going to you need." Instead of we're going to you need." Instead of we're going to roll the dice and and see where we land roll the dice and and see where we land roll the dice and and see where we land here. So, but yeah, that's really where here. So, but yeah, that's really where here. So, but yeah, that's really where it comes down to this. Was this it comes down to this. Was this it comes down to this. Was this premeditated on her part? Did she plan premeditated on her part? Did she plan premeditated on her part? Did she plan this and think about this and do this?

this and think about this and do this? this and think about this and do this? And remember, here's one of the fact And remember, here's one of the fact And remember, here's one of the fact that the that the prosecution I think that the that the prosecution I think that the that the prosecution I think helps them. There's three kids. They're helps them. There's three kids. They're helps them. There's three kids. They're all strangled in the basement with all strangled in the basement with all strangled in the basement with exercise cords. exercise cords. exercise cords. That means she had to strangle one while That means she had to strangle one while That means she had to strangle one while the other two were watching, playing, the other two were watching, playing, the other two were watching, playing, whatever it may be, strangle a second whatever it may be, strangle a second whatever it may be, strangle a second one, still not coming out of this one, still not coming out of this one, still not coming out of this psychosis, and then strangle a third. psychosis, and then strangle a third. psychosis, and then strangle a third. What you've got to the second one, look What you've got to the second one, look What you've got to the second one, look back at the first and said, "What did I back at the first and said, "What did I back at the first and said, "What did I just do?" That could go either way. So, just do?" That could go either way. So, just do?" That could go either way. So, >> Yeah. Yeah, this is the case I do not >> Yeah. Yeah, this is the case I do not >> Yeah. Yeah, this is the case I do not envy the jurors at all. Like just the envy the jurors at all. Like just the envy the jurors at all. Like just the way that you walked it through right way that you walked it through right way that you walked it through right there, there, there, paints such a vivid picture. It's going paints such a vivid picture. It's going paints such a vivid picture. It's going to be so hard for them. I mean, because to be so hard for them. I mean, because to be so hard for them. I mean, because they're going to be back there, and they they're going to be back there, and they they're going to be back there, and they they may be they may be they may be struggling both with the idea that they struggling both with the idea that they struggling both with the idea that they believe they have a very sick woman believe they have a very sick woman believe they have a very sick woman who in in in her healthier days would who in in in her healthier days would who in in in her healthier days would never have done something like this, and never have done something like this, and never have done something like this, and then you've got three dead kids. And then you've got three dead kids. And then you've got three dead kids. And what do you do in that situation? I do what do you do in that situation? I do what do you do in that situation? I do not envy them.

not envy them. not envy them. Um it's a case that is going to continue Um it's a case that is going to continue Um it's a case that is going to continue to go on for about 6 to 8 weeks, to go on for about 6 to 8 weeks, to go on for about 6 to 8 weeks, according to the judge. Uh the husband according to the judge. Uh the husband according to the judge. Uh the husband is still testifying. By the time we is still testifying. By the time we is still testifying. By the time we release this, he may have release this, he may have release this, he may have concluded his testimony, but he is concluded his testimony, but he is concluded his testimony, but he is probably the most important witness and probably the most important witness and probably the most important witness and the first one called by the prosecution. the first one called by the prosecution. the first one called by the prosecution. Uh we'll continue to watch that case. Uh we'll continue to watch that case. Uh we'll continue to watch that case. Let's move to our final case out of Let's move to our final case out of Let's move to our final case out of Moscow, Idaho. More than a year after Moscow, Idaho. More than a year after Moscow, Idaho. More than a year after the Bryan Kohberger sentencing, he's the Bryan Kohberger sentencing, he's the Bryan Kohberger sentencing, he's seeking to withdraw his plea and go to seeking to withdraw his plea and go to seeking to withdraw his plea and go to trial for the slayings of the Idaho 4. trial for the slayings of the Idaho 4. trial for the slayings of the Idaho 4. In a handwritten motion, Kohberger In a handwritten motion, Kohberger In a handwritten motion, Kohberger proclaimed his innocence in the killings proclaimed his innocence in the killings proclaimed his innocence in the killings of Kaylee Goncalves, Madison Mogen, Xana of Kaylee Goncalves, Madison Mogen, Xana of Kaylee Goncalves, Madison Mogen, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin. Kohberger Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin. Kohberger Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin. Kohberger also accused his legal team, which also accused his legal team, which also accused his legal team, which succeeded in sparing him the death succeeded in sparing him the death succeeded in sparing him the death penalty, of ineffective counsel, citing penalty, of ineffective counsel, citing penalty, of ineffective counsel, citing evidence that was never examined and evidence that was never examined and evidence that was never examined and plea negotiations which allegedly left plea negotiations which allegedly left plea negotiations which allegedly left him, quote, "convinced to falsely him, quote, "convinced to falsely him, quote, "convinced to falsely confess." The convicted killer also gave confess." The convicted killer also gave confess." The convicted killer also gave an interview to the New York Times an interview to the New York Times an interview to the New York Times reiterating his intention to challenge reiterating his intention to challenge reiterating his intention to challenge his plea and proclaiming his innocence, his plea and proclaiming his innocence, his plea and proclaiming his innocence, marking his first significant comment marking his first significant comment marking his first significant comment since his arrest. It remains to be seen since his arrest. It remains to be seen since his arrest. It remains to be seen if this will if this will if this will culminate in a new trial, but the culminate in a new trial, but the culminate in a new trial, but the Gonsalves family has already been vocal Gonsalves family has already been vocal Gonsalves family has already been vocal in their disgust at Kohberger's change in their disgust at Kohberger's change in their disgust at Kohberger's change of heart. Not only have they been vocal, of heart. Not only have they been vocal, of heart. Not only have they been vocal, they've almost encouraged him to be they've almost encouraged him to be they've almost encouraged him to be successful in it because they want to successful in it because they want to successful in it because they want to see a trial. They were They were one of see a trial. They were They were one of see a trial. They were They were one of the family members that were most the family members that were most the family members that were most against it. Um talk to us though exactly against it. Um talk to us though exactly against it. Um talk to us though exactly about what's happening here because many about what's happening here because many about what's happening here because many people concentrated on the idea that

people concentrated on the idea that people concentrated on the idea that when he played, he gave up his right. He when he played, he gave up his right. He when he played, he gave up his right. He waived his right to appeal. But this is waived his right to appeal. But this is waived his right to appeal. But this is not really an appeal, it's something not really an appeal, it's something not really an appeal, it's something different. What is it? different. What is it? different. What is it? >> Right. So [snorts] usually on an appeal >> Right. So [snorts] usually on an appeal >> Right. So [snorts] usually on an appeal when you take a plea, there are very when you take a plea, there are very when you take a plea, there are very limited grounds. Each state is limited grounds. Each state is limited grounds. Each state is different, but it's things like were you different, but it's things like were you different, but it's things like were you over the age of 18 when this crime over the age of 18 when this crime over the age of 18 when this crime occurred? occurred? occurred? Um you know, did your lawyer do a good Um you know, did your lawyer do a good Um you know, did your lawyer do a good job, which he probably would have said job, which he probably would have said job, which he probably would have said yes or no on those questions. Did the yes or no on those questions. Did the yes or no on those questions. Did the judge give you an illegal sentence? judge give you an illegal sentence? judge give you an illegal sentence? Those are grounds for an appeal. And And Those are grounds for an appeal. And And Those are grounds for an appeal. And And like you said, he waived those. This is like you said, he waived those. This is like you said, he waived those. This is different. This is what's called Every different. This is what's called Every different. This is what's called Every state is different, but it's a It's state is different, but it's a It's state is different, but it's a It's saying that he had incompetent counsel saying that he had incompetent counsel saying that he had incompetent counsel or his lawyers didn't do their job or his lawyers didn't do their job or his lawyers didn't do their job essentially. And those types of claims, essentially. And those types of claims, essentially. And those types of claims, there's usually no limitation on those. there's usually no limitation on those. there's usually no limitation on those. They can come back anytime and they They can come back anytime and they They can come back anytime and they don't really fall under the appellate don't really fall under the appellate don't really fall under the appellate world. They fall more under the original world. They fall more under the original world. They fall more under the original trial judge reviewing it and saying, trial judge reviewing it and saying, trial judge reviewing it and saying, "Okay, has the defendant established "Okay, has the defendant established "Okay, has the defendant established that his lawyers did something wrong that his lawyers did something wrong that his lawyers did something wrong here? They either told him wrong here? They either told him wrong here? They either told him wrong information, didn't tell him information, didn't tell him information, didn't tell him information, withheld information."

information, withheld information." information, withheld information." Um but remember the standard is is Um but remember the standard is is Um but remember the standard is is really what would a reasonable lawyer really what would a reasonable lawyer really what would a reasonable lawyer have done in the same situation. I don't have done in the same situation. I don't have done in the same situation. I don't think that's what he's claiming here. I think that's what he's claiming here. I think that's what he's claiming here. I think what he seems to be claiming is think what he seems to be claiming is think what he seems to be claiming is they didn't tell me information and they didn't tell me information and they didn't tell me information and therefore I did I relied on not having therefore I did I relied on not having therefore I did I relied on not having that information to make the decision to that information to make the decision to that information to make the decision to make to take a plea. make to take a plea. make to take a plea. So So So to that point, when he took his plea, if to that point, when he took his plea, if to that point, when he took his plea, if you remember, this was not You You and I you remember, this was not You You and I you remember, this was not You You and I have probably sat through hundreds of have probably sat through hundreds of have probably sat through hundreds of pleas. Most of them take a matter of pleas. Most of them take a matter of pleas. Most of them take a matter of minutes, at least in my experience. This minutes, at least in my experience. This minutes, at least in my experience. This plea was long. It was upwards of an hour plea was long. It was upwards of an hour plea was long. It was upwards of an hour that it took, and the judge was very that it took, and the judge was very that it took, and the judge was very thorough, and he was very detailed, and thorough, and he was very detailed, and thorough, and he was very detailed, and he asked him more than once, is he doing he asked him more than once, is he doing he asked him more than once, is he doing this willfully, knowingly, this willfully, knowingly, this willfully, knowingly, intelligently, asking him if he intelligently, asking him if he intelligently, asking him if he understood the consequences, asking him understood the consequences, asking him understood the consequences, asking him if he had discussed this with his if he had discussed this with his if he had discussed this with his attorneys, asking him if he understood attorneys, asking him if he understood attorneys, asking him if he understood all of his defenses, going through every all of his defenses, going through every all of his defenses, going through every possible iteration of why a person might possible iteration of why a person might possible iteration of why a person might argue later on what he's trying to argue argue later on what he's trying to argue argue later on what he's trying to argue now, hey, I want to undo my plea. now, hey, I want to undo my plea. now, hey, I want to undo my plea. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Um and part of what he's saying is he's >> Um and part of what he's saying is he's >> Um and part of what he's saying is he's laying it that at the feet of the feet laying it that at the feet of the feet laying it that at the feet of the feet of his attorneys by saying they misled of his attorneys by saying they misled of his attorneys by saying they misled me, essentially, or they didn't share me, essentially, or they didn't share me, essentially, or they didn't share everything with me, and they just everything with me, and they just everything with me, and they just basically told me I've got to confess to basically told me I've got to confess to basically told me I've got to confess to this, otherwise I'm going to get the this, otherwise I'm going to get the this, otherwise I'm going to get the death penalty.

death penalty. death penalty. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What does he actually have to prove, >> What does he actually have to prove, >> What does he actually have to prove, though? Because he you've got on the though? Because he you've got on the though? Because he you've got on the record his plea, which acknowledges all record his plea, which acknowledges all record his plea, which acknowledges all of that, and and it seems pretty rock of that, and and it seems pretty rock of that, and and it seems pretty rock solid, and now he's saying, no, that's solid, and now he's saying, no, that's solid, and now he's saying, no, that's not true. What physically or or actually not true. What physically or or actually not true. What physically or or actually does he have to show to a judge to get a does he have to show to a judge to get a does he have to show to a judge to get a chance at having this withdrawn? chance at having this withdrawn? chance at having this withdrawn? >> And [snorts] you're exactly right, and >> And [snorts] you're exactly right, and >> And [snorts] you're exactly right, and what he has to show to the judge is that what he has to show to the judge is that what he has to show to the judge is that there is some information that he was there is some information that he was there is some information that he was not provided. Now, here's here's how not provided. Now, here's here's how not provided. Now, here's here's how this typically works when you have this typically works when you have this typically works when you have clients, and I've had hundreds of clients, and I've had hundreds of clients, and I've had hundreds of clients in the past who have been clients in the past who have been clients in the past who have been incarcerated, and it's very tough when incarcerated, and it's very tough when incarcerated, and it's very tough when you have a client who is incarcerated. you have a client who is incarcerated. you have a client who is incarcerated. Luckily, technology's made it a lot Luckily, technology's made it a lot Luckily, technology's made it a lot easier. They're now providing computers easier. They're now providing computers easier. They're now providing computers and TV screens and video players at the and TV screens and video players at the and TV screens and video players at the detention center, so you can go and show detention center, so you can go and show detention center, so you can go and show the client videos, you can exchange the the client videos, you can exchange the the client videos, you can exchange the the information. Even in situations, the information. Even in situations, the information. Even in situations, they've given defendants laptops, like they've given defendants laptops, like they've given defendants laptops, like the Murdaugh case, obviously they're the Murdaugh case, obviously they're the Murdaugh case, obviously they're asking for the same thing as a as a asking for the same thing as a as a asking for the same thing as a as a laptop, so he can review it. But what he laptop, so he can review it. But what he laptop, so he can review it. But what he has to establish to the judge is, judge, has to establish to the judge is, judge, has to establish to the judge is, judge, there is a piece of evidence or multiple there is a piece of evidence or multiple there is a piece of evidence or multiple pieces of evidence that I did not get to pieces of evidence that I did not get to pieces of evidence that I did not get to review. I did not see, and that would review. I did not see, and that would review. I did not see, and that would have changed my decision to not take have changed my decision to not take have changed my decision to not take this plea. Now, how does the attorneys this plea. Now, how does the attorneys this plea. Now, how does the attorneys combat that? His attorneys will in turn combat that? His attorneys will in turn combat that? His attorneys will in turn say, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a second, say, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a second, say, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a second, Mr. Kohberger. Here's a letter that we Mr. Kohberger. Here's a letter that we Mr. Kohberger. Here's a letter that we sent you, and in that letter, there's an sent you, and in that letter, there's an sent you, and in that letter, there's an index of every single document that we index of every single document that we index of every single document that we forwarded to you, and there's probably forwarded to you, and there's probably forwarded to you, and there's probably multiple ones of these, and that multiple ones of these, and that multiple ones of these, and that document you're saying or that witness document you're saying or that witness document you're saying or that witness or that piece of evidence, it was or that piece of evidence, it was or that piece of evidence, it was contained on page six of that discovery contained on page six of that discovery contained on page six of that discovery disclosure to you. So, you had that

disclosure to you. So, you had that disclosure to you. So, you had that information, and that's just a information, and that's just a information, and that's just a bold-faced lie, and you you knew about bold-faced lie, and you you knew about bold-faced lie, and you you knew about this before." this before." this before." >> And remember, too, this took years to >> And remember, too, this took years to >> And remember, too, this took years to get to the point of him taking a plea. get to the point of him taking a plea. get to the point of him taking a plea. It wasn't like this was a rushed It wasn't like this was a rushed It wasn't like this was a rushed process, and he might be able to say, process, and he might be able to say, process, and he might be able to say, "Well, there was thousands of pages, and "Well, there was thousands of pages, and "Well, there was thousands of pages, and I couldn't review all of it. They just I couldn't review all of it. They just I couldn't review all of it. They just told me to hurry up and take it while I told me to hurry up and take it while I told me to hurry up and take it while I could." He had years to go through could." He had years to go through could." He had years to go through everything and talk to his attorneys, everything and talk to his attorneys, everything and talk to his attorneys, and they were incredibly thorough. I and they were incredibly thorough. I and they were incredibly thorough. I mean, of all the all the sets of mean, of all the all the sets of mean, of all the all the sets of attorneys to accuse of not doing their attorneys to accuse of not doing their attorneys to accuse of not doing their job, uh he's accusing the attorneys that job, uh he's accusing the attorneys that job, uh he's accusing the attorneys that we just found out made over $5 million we just found out made over $5 million we just found out made over $5 million from the state of Idaho in their defense from the state of Idaho in their defense from the state of Idaho in their defense of him by the by on the taxpayer dime. of him by the by on the taxpayer dime. of him by the by on the taxpayer dime. Uh so, he got plenty of defense, in my Uh so, he got plenty of defense, in my Uh so, he got plenty of defense, in my view. Um view. Um view. Um there's one criticism that keeps coming there's one criticism that keeps coming there's one criticism that keeps coming back about that plea, though, and his back about that plea, though, and his back about that plea, though, and his sentencing is that prosecutors and the sentencing is that prosecutors and the sentencing is that prosecutors and the judge never required him to give a judge never required him to give a judge never required him to give a proffer. Never required him to just proffer. Never required him to just proffer. Never required him to just allocute some his involvement in what he allocute some his involvement in what he allocute some his involvement in what he did and how it took place.

did and how it took place. did and how it took place. >> Had he done that, would that actually >> Had he done that, would that actually >> Had he done that, would that actually change any of the arguments that he's change any of the arguments that he's change any of the arguments that he's making now or his ability to ask for a making now or his ability to ask for a making now or his ability to ask for a withdraw of plea now? withdraw of plea now? withdraw of plea now? >> It [snorts] it would have it had it >> It [snorts] it would have it had it >> It [snorts] it would have it had it established the elements of the crime established the elements of the crime established the elements of the crime that he was obviously charged with. that he was obviously charged with. that he was obviously charged with. Um and that was one big thing that I was Um and that was one big thing that I was Um and that was one big thing that I was a little, you know, um not confused a little, you know, um not confused a little, you know, um not confused about, but I get that. And and here's about, but I get that. And and here's about, but I get that. And and here's why that probably happened. why that probably happened. why that probably happened. There are a lot of clients that, you There are a lot of clients that, you There are a lot of clients that, you know, we've had, and and I'm sure know, we've had, and and I'm sure know, we've had, and and I'm sure there's defense attorneys all over the there's defense attorneys all over the there's defense attorneys all over the country where country where country where to get them to the point to where you to get them to the point to where you to get them to the point to where you say, "Look, we think the best thing for say, "Look, we think the best thing for say, "Look, we think the best thing for you to do is resolve this with a plea you to do is resolve this with a plea you to do is resolve this with a plea that's going to save your life." that's going to save your life." that's going to save your life." Remember, he was facing, I believe, the Remember, he was facing, I believe, the Remember, he was facing, I believe, the firing squad had he been convicted in of firing squad had he been convicted in of firing squad had he been convicted in of of uh of uh of uh of the crimes and sentenced to death. of the crimes and sentenced to death. of the crimes and sentenced to death. So, So, So, to get a defendant often times to say, to get a defendant often times to say, to get a defendant often times to say, "Okay, we think the best interest of for "Okay, we think the best interest of for "Okay, we think the best interest of for you is to take a plea." Sometimes the you is to take a plea." Sometimes the you is to take a plea." Sometimes the defendant says, "Look, I I'll I'll take defendant says, "Look, I I'll I'll take defendant says, "Look, I I'll I'll take a plea, but I'm not going to get on that a plea, but I'm not going to get on that a plea, but I'm not going to get on that stand and tell what I did." Or I'm not stand and tell what I did." Or I'm not stand and tell what I did." Or I'm not going to talk about it cuz I just don't going to talk about it cuz I just don't going to talk about it cuz I just don't want to do that. I don't For whatever want to do that. I don't For whatever want to do that. I don't For whatever reason it may be. reason it may be. reason it may be. And sometimes you just have to do that, And sometimes you just have to do that, And sometimes you just have to do that, even though he's getting up there even though he's getting up there even though he's getting up there saying, "Yeah, I did it. I'm guilty. I I saying, "Yeah, I did it. I'm guilty. I I saying, "Yeah, I did it. I'm guilty. I I It was me. You know, throw away the It was me. You know, throw away the It was me. You know, throw away the key."

key." key." It's just sometimes the situation calls It's just sometimes the situation calls It's just sometimes the situation calls for that cuz some defendants they just for that cuz some defendants they just for that cuz some defendants they just they'll get right up to that line, but they'll get right up to that line, but they'll get right up to that line, but they won't maybe say and proffer exactly they won't maybe say and proffer exactly they won't maybe say and proffer exactly how they did it and why they did it. how they did it and why they did it. how they did it and why they did it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Also, too, Also, too, Also, too, uh the judge said this even at the time, uh the judge said this even at the time, uh the judge said this even at the time, I don't know if we want to hear from I don't know if we want to hear from I don't know if we want to hear from him. Do we really want to to like does him. Do we really want to to like does him. Do we really want to to like does it will it really uh provide the it will it really uh provide the it will it really uh provide the catharsis we all think it will to have catharsis we all think it will to have catharsis we all think it will to have him say why he did this or something? I him say why he did this or something? I him say why he did this or something? I don't I don't think so. I I kind of don't I don't think so. I I kind of don't I don't think so. I I kind of agree with the idea of why give him a agree with the idea of why give him a agree with the idea of why give him a further platform. Uh he seems like a further platform. Uh he seems like a further platform. Uh he seems like a person who thoroughly enjoys his his person who thoroughly enjoys his his person who thoroughly enjoys his his time and I think that's part of the time and I think that's part of the time and I think that's part of the reason he's making this uh uh reason he's making this uh uh reason he's making this uh uh petition right now is he's here's petition right now is he's here's petition right now is he's here's realizing we're all beginning to forget realizing we're all beginning to forget realizing we're all beginning to forget him as well we should. But, we'll keep him as well we should. But, we'll keep him as well we should. But, we'll keep an eye on it. It's certainly something an eye on it. It's certainly something an eye on it. It's certainly something that somehow a judge is going to have to that somehow a judge is going to have to that somehow a judge is going to have to address. I think he's at least entitled address. I think he's at least entitled address. I think he's at least entitled to some sort of day in court for the to some sort of day in court for the to some sort of day in court for the judge to to deny this, which I think it judge to to deny this, which I think it judge to to deny this, which I think it has a pretty good chance of being has a pretty good chance of being has a pretty good chance of being denied, but we'll see how that all plays denied, but we'll see how that all plays denied, but we'll see how that all plays out. In the meantime, Randolph, I have out. In the meantime, Randolph, I have out. In the meantime, Randolph, I have thoroughly enjoyed our conversation and thoroughly enjoyed our conversation and thoroughly enjoyed our conversation and I thank you so much for taking the time I thank you so much for taking the time I thank you so much for taking the time to come on this week and chat with us.

to come on this week and chat with us. to come on this week and chat with us. Where can people find out more about Where can people find out more about Where can people find out more about you? you? you? >> Oh, they can visit uh socials, >> Oh, they can visit uh socials, >> Oh, they can visit uh socials, reislawmd, website reislawmd.com, or reislawmd, website reislawmd.com, or reislawmd, website reislawmd.com, or just turn on the TV and watch Court TV just turn on the TV and watch Court TV just turn on the TV and watch Court TV or Nancy Grace or any of the other true or Nancy Grace or any of the other true or Nancy Grace or any of the other true crime shows and I'm usually on somewhere crime shows and I'm usually on somewhere crime shows and I'm usually on somewhere every week on one of those different every week on one of those different every week on one of those different shows. shows. shows. >> Fantastic. I'm your host Josh Rider. You >> Fantastic. I'm your host Josh Rider. You >> Fantastic. I'm your host Josh Rider. You can find me on Instagram and Twitter at can find me on Instagram and Twitter at can find me on Instagram and Twitter at Josh Rider ESQ. And if you want to hear Josh Rider ESQ. And if you want to hear Josh Rider ESQ. And if you want to hear my thoughts and coverage on even more my thoughts and coverage on even more my thoughts and coverage on even more true crime cases, please check out my true crime cases, please check out my true crime cases, please check out my YouTube channel Courtroom Confidential. YouTube channel Courtroom Confidential. YouTube channel Courtroom Confidential. And you can of course find all of our And you can of course find all of our And you can of course find all of our sidebar episodes wherever you get your sidebar episodes wherever you get your sidebar episodes wherever you get your podcast and we would love to hear from podcast and we would love to hear from podcast and we would love to hear from you. If you've got questions or comments you. If you've got questions or comments you. If you've got questions or comments you'd like us to address, please tweet you'd like us to address, please tweet you'd like us to address, please tweet us your questions with the hashtag TCN us your questions with the hashtag TCN us your questions with the hashtag TCN Sidebar and thank you for joining us at Sidebar and thank you for joining us at Sidebar and thank you for joining us at the True Crime News Sidebar.