‘American Idol’ contestant staged wife’s murder to avoid divorce

Warning: This Warning: This podcast explores podcast explores podcast explores graphic and disturbing graphic and disturbing graphic and disturbing stories and contains stories and contains stories and contains foul language. foul language. foul language. Therefore, it may not be Therefore, it may not be Therefore, it may not be suitable for our suitable for our suitable for our young listeners or young listeners or young listeners or others who others who others who may be upset by it. may be upset by it. may be upset by it. Welcome to True Crime News, a Welcome to True Crime News, a Welcome to True Crime News, a podcast that podcast that podcast that highlights high-profile and highlights high-profile and highlights high-profile and little-known cases from little-known cases from little-known cases from across the country every week. I'm your across the country every week. I'm your across the country every week. I'm your host, Anna Garcia. host, Anna Garcia. host, Anna Garcia. Our hero this week Our hero this week Our hero this week was a contestant on American Idol was a contestant on American Idol , and now he's a , and now he's a convicted murderer. convicted murderer. convicted murderer. Few people remember Few people remember Few people remember Caleb Flynn for his Caleb Flynn for his Caleb Flynn for his performances on that show performances on that show . Oh, but his trial for . Oh, but his trial for . Oh, but his trial for murder was pretty murder was pretty murder was pretty memorable. He memorable. He memorable. He revealed what a revealed what a revealed what a horrible, lying and horrible, lying and horrible, lying and unfaithful husband unfaithful husband unfaithful husband he was, deciding to he was, deciding to he was, deciding to kill his wife of kill his wife of kill his wife of 15 years to 15 years to 15 years to be with his be with his be with his much younger much younger much younger lover, a 20-year-old lover, a 20-year-old lover, a 20-year-old intern intern intern he met at the church he met at the church he met at the church where he pastored. where he pastored. where he pastored. Police allege Police allege Police allege he staged the he staged the he staged the murder scene as a murder scene as a home invasion. Listen to home invasion. Listen to what he told what he told what he told 911. Someone broke into 911. Someone broke into 911. Someone broke into my house. Someone my house. Someone my house. Someone broke into my broke into my broke into my house and took my life. house and took my life. house and took my life. She was shot twice in the She was shot twice in the She was shot twice in the head. Blood everywhere. Oh my head. Blood everywhere. Oh my head. Blood everywhere. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God.

God. Oh my God. Oh my God. God. Oh my God. Oh my God. Good. You suddenly Good. You suddenly Good. You suddenly find your find your find your wife in bed wife in bed wife in bed unconscious and unconscious and unconscious and covered in blood. covered in blood. covered in blood. How do you know How do you know How do you know she was shot twice in the she was shot twice in the she was shot twice in the back of the head unless you back of the head unless you back of the head unless you fired those fired those fired those bullets yourself? We record this bullets yourself? We record this bullets yourself? We record this on Friday, October 2, on Friday, October 2, on Friday, October 2, 2026. Our guest 2026. Our guest 2026. Our guest today is the one and today is the one and today is the one and only Lewis only Lewis only Lewis Bologanos, former Bologanos, former homicide detective, private homicide detective, private investigator, founder of investigator, founder of investigator, founder of Get Bit Investigations, Get Bit Investigations, Get Bit Investigations, victim advocate, and victim advocate, and victim advocate, and close friend of our close friend of our close friend of our show. Lewis, show. Lewis, show. Lewis, welcome back. I welcome back. I welcome back. I missed you. missed you. missed you. Hello, Anna. I missed Hello, Anna. I missed Hello, Anna. I missed you too. you too. you too. A lot of time has passed. It's always A lot of time has passed. It's always A lot of time has passed. It's always nice nice nice to chat, but to chat, but to chat, but lately it's lately it's lately it's mostly been mostly been mostly been discussing crime discussing crime . . . I know. I know. And this I know. I know. And this I know. I know. And this case, we've case, we've case, we've covered it on the covered it on the covered it on the podcast before, when Caleb podcast before, when Caleb podcast before, when Caleb Flynn was arrested, Flynn was arrested, Flynn was arrested, and there were so many and there were so many and there were so many red flags red flags red flags about his behavior, what about his behavior, what about his behavior, what he was saying, he was saying, he was saying, but now, after the trial, but now, after the trial, but now, after the trial, when all the when all the when all the dirty laundry has come out, oh dirty laundry has come out, oh dirty laundry has come out, oh my god, what's wrong with this my god, what's wrong with this my god, what's wrong with this man? man? man? Oh, he's just in Oh, he's just in Oh, he's just in love with love with love with himself. I think that was himself. I think that was himself. I think that was problem number one. problem number one. problem number one. And he craved And he craved And he craved attention so much that now he attention so much that now he attention so much that now he got it.

got it. got it. Oh yes, Oh yes, Oh yes, now he's got it. now he's got it. now he's got it. Him Him Him and all his sobbing in and all his sobbing in and all his sobbing in court. Listen, dude. court. Listen, dude. 100,000 text 100,000 text messages were presented during your trial. Your messages were presented during your trial. Your messages were presented during your trial. Your ex-lover ex-lover ex-lover reads them aloud, and reads them aloud, and reads them aloud, and you sit there sobbing. you sit there sobbing. You are accused of You are accused of murdering the mother of murdering the mother of murdering the mother of your two daughters, and your two daughters, and your two daughters, and you are crying. you are crying. These were tears because These were tears because he had been caught. he had been caught. he had been caught. He is only upset about being He is only upset about being He is only upset about being caught caught caught and nothing else. And his and nothing else. And his and nothing else. And his own—you know, he own—you know, he own—you know, he knows this better knows this better knows this better than anyone now—his than anyone now—his than anyone now—his own words own words own words destroyed him. Right. destroyed him. Right. destroyed him. Right. He literally wrote in He literally wrote in He literally wrote in text text text messages, “I messages, “I messages, “I want her gone. want her gone. want her gone. I want to kill her. "If I want to kill her. "If I want to kill her. "If I could kill her, you know I could kill her, you know , without the wrath of God and , without the wrath of God and , without the wrath of God and without having to without having to without having to go to prison, I would go to prison, I would go to prison, I would ." Who in their ." Who in their ." Who in their right mind right mind right mind says and writes such says and writes such says and writes such things, things, things, right? No one. Is right? No one. Is right? No one. Is the word "stormy" the word "stormy" the word "stormy" appropriate for appropriate for appropriate for this? That doesn't even this? That doesn't even this? That doesn't even give the full picture? give the full picture? Thousands, over 100 thousand Thousands, over 100 thousand text text text messages, an messages, an messages, an average of 300 a day, average of 300 a day, average of 300 a day, between Caleb, this between Caleb, this between Caleb, this clown, this clown, this clown, this worthless man, and worthless man, and worthless man, and his mistress.

his mistress. Oh my God. Oh my God. Incredible. The Incredible. The Incredible. The trial lasted only 9 trial lasted only 9 trial lasted only 9 days, but everyone, you know, is days, but everyone, you know, is days, but everyone, you know, is fascinated by fascinated by fascinated by crime crime crime stories. And, you know, stories. And, you know, stories. And, you know, I think the reason I think the reason I think the reason people are so fascinated by this is because it's people are so fascinated by this is because it's hard to believe in the hard to believe in the human behavior human behavior human behavior that's revealed in these kinds of that's revealed in these kinds of that's revealed in these kinds of cases. cases. cases. This is so outrageous. So, This is so outrageous. So, This is so outrageous. So, over 9 days, the details were over 9 days, the details were over 9 days, the details were simply simply simply stunning, stunning, stunning, especially when the especially when the especially when the ex-lover ex-lover ex-lover testified. I testified. I testified. I mean, it was mean, it was mean, it was exciting. She exciting. She exciting. She even, you know, even, you know, even, you know, told the jury told the jury told the jury that they had that they had that they had sex in his sex in his sex in his truck in the truck in the truck in the Chipotle parking lot. Woman, Chipotle parking lot. Woman, Chipotle parking lot. Woman, what did you find in this what did you find in this what did you find in this man? man? man? Yes, exactly. I have no idea what the Yes, exactly. I have no idea what the appeal was, but appeal was, but she had her she had her she had her problems, right? She problems, right? She problems, right? She herself does not have herself does not have herself does not have clean hands in this clean hands in this clean hands in this matter. Yes. Although she matter. Yes. Although she matter. Yes. Although she said, and we'll said, and we'll said, and we'll come back to this, come back to this, come back to this, she said that when she she said that when she she said that when she first met him, first met him, first met him, he told her that he told her that he told her that the relationship between him and his the relationship between him and his the relationship between him and his wife was like wife was like wife was like roommates, roommates, roommates, that their marriage was that their marriage was that their marriage was effectively over effectively over effectively over and they were living together and they were living together and they were living together for the sake of the girls. And in for the sake of the girls. And in for the sake of the girls. And in all these text all these text all these text messages, he messages, he messages, he kept talking about kept talking about kept talking about , you know, , you know, , you know, divorce, but divorce, but divorce, but the problem with divorce the problem with divorce the problem with divorce is—we'll talk about that later is—we'll talk about that later is—we'll talk about that later —that he didn't —that he didn't —that he didn't want to lose his want to lose his want to lose his status in the community if he got status in the community if he got status in the community if he got divorced.

divorced. divorced. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. Yes. And there were Yes. And there were Yes. And there were other motives for this. We other motives for this. We other motives for this. We will move on to will move on to will move on to much more weighty much more weighty much more weighty motives. Good. So, motives. Good. So, motives. Good. So, let's look let's look let's look into this matter. This into this matter. This into this matter. This case is from Tip City, case is from Tip City, case is from Tip City, Ohio. and Ohio. and Ohio. and Caleb Flynn, 40, best Caleb Flynn, 40, best Caleb Flynn, 40, best known as a contestant on known as a contestant on known as a contestant on American Idol in 2013, where American Idol in 2013, where American Idol in 2013, where he told the he told the he told the world how world how world how much he loved his much he loved his much he loved his wife. wife. wife. Yes. Poor American Yes. Poor American Yes. Poor American Idol, Anna, that's right. This has been Idol, Anna, that's right. This has been Idol, Anna, that's right. This has been going on for so long. going on for so long. going on for so long. First it was American First it was American First it was American Idol. Those were the first Idol. Those were the first Idol. Those were the first words that sound uh words that sound uh words that sound uh when they when they when they report on report on report on him uh, just because him uh, just because him uh, just because he he he appeared there very briefly. Yes. appeared there very briefly. Yes. appeared there very briefly. Yes. But poor American But poor American But poor American Idol. They were dragged into this Idol. They were dragged into this Idol. They were dragged into this swamp that he swamp that he swamp that he created. created. created. Incredible. Incredible. Incredible. Right. So, he Right. So, he Right. So, he confesses his love confesses his love confesses his love on that show, yes, about on that show, yes, about on that show, yes, about how much he how much he how much he loves his wife and loves his wife and loves his wife and how beautiful she is. And how beautiful she is. And how beautiful she is. And yes, Ashley was a yes, Ashley was a yes, Ashley was a beautiful woman. beautiful woman. beautiful woman. Now he has been found Now he has been found Now he has been found guilty of murdering guilty of murdering guilty of murdering his wife, 37- his wife, 37- year-old Ashley Flynn. She was year-old Ashley Flynn. She was year-old Ashley Flynn. She was shot shot shot in the back of the head, as if during an in the back of the head, as if during an in the back of the head, as if during an execution, while she was execution, while she was execution, while she was asleep in her bed. asleep in her bed. Their two daughters, Their two daughters, ages 9 and 11, were also sleeping at home. So from the outside ages 9 and 11, were also sleeping at home. So from the outside ages 9 and 11, were also sleeping at home. So from the outside everything looked everything looked everything looked perfect. Beautiful perfect. Beautiful perfect. Beautiful couple, beautiful family, couple, beautiful family, couple, beautiful family, beautiful children, beautiful children, beautiful children, beautiful house.

beautiful house. beautiful house. They made good money. They made good money. They made good money. They were like They were like They were like local local local celebrities, celebrities, celebrities, you know, right? Um, you know, right? Um, you know, right? Um, very active in their very active in their very active in their church. Ashley was a church. Ashley was a church. Ashley was a wonderful mother. She wonderful mother. She wonderful mother. She taught at school and taught at school and taught at school and was a was a was a women's volleyball coach. On women's volleyball coach. On women's volleyball coach. On the outside, they had everything. the outside, they had everything. the outside, they had everything. I mean, when I mean, when I mean, when you look at their you look at their you look at their pictures, right? pictures, right? pictures, right? You look at their You look at their You look at their photos, family photos, family photos, family photos, they are just a photos, they are just a photos, they are just a beautiful family. But the beautiful family. But the beautiful family. But the truth was that truth was that truth was that Caleb was having an affair with a 20- Caleb was having an affair with a 20- year-old church year-old church year-old church intern. And those 100,000 intern. And those 100,000 intern. And those 100,000 text text text messages that were messages that were messages that were presented in court presented in court presented in court revealed, revealed what revealed, revealed what Caleb really Caleb really Caleb really felt about Ashley. That felt about Ashley. That felt about Ashley. That Caleb didn't want Caleb didn't want Caleb didn't want to break up with Ashley to break up with Ashley to break up with Ashley because he would lose because he would lose because he would lose such high such high such high status. For example, the status. For example, the $200,000-a-year job $200,000-a-year job he had with his father-in-law he had with his father-in-law he had with his father-in-law in the family in the family in the family flooring flooring flooring and furniture business. He and furniture business. He and furniture business. He worried that he worried that he worried that he would lose custody of would lose custody of would lose custody of his girls his girls his girls if news of the affair if news of the affair if news of the affair became known. He, I became known. He, I became known. He, I mean, how can he mean, how can he mean, how can he not sit down and say, "Well not sit down and say, "Well , I lost that job.

, I lost that job. I lost my I lost my girls. I killed my girls. I killed my girls. I killed my wife, I was convicted wife, I was convicted wife, I was convicted . And now I'm . And now I'm . And now I'm probably going to spend the probably going to spend the probably going to spend the rest of my life in rest of my life in rest of my life in prison." How did that prison." How did that prison." How did that work for you, work for you, work for you, Caleb? Caleb? Caleb? Yes, he will have Yes, he will have Yes, he will have plenty of time to plenty of time to plenty of time to think about it. think about it. And, of course, the third And, of course, the third person in his life person in his life person in his life and this relationship, and this relationship, and this relationship, Alia Botner, who was Alia Botner, who was Alia Botner, who was 16 years younger than 16 years younger than 16 years younger than him at the time him at the time him at the time this affair occurred. And this affair occurred. And this affair occurred. And they were, you know, they were, you know, they were, you know, together for about a together for about a together for about a year and a half, according year and a half, according year and a half, according to everything that was to everything that was to everything that was announced in court. announced in court. Now here's something else Now here's something else he risked. Lewis he risked. Lewis , when Ashley's sister , when Ashley's sister , when Ashley's sister testified, testified, testified, she said that she said that she said that the father planned the father planned the father planned to pass the business on to his two to pass the business on to his two to pass the business on to his two daughters, and they were to daughters, and they were to daughters, and they were to split the family split the family split the family business 50/50. And this business 50/50. And this business 50/50. And this business brought in business brought in business brought in a lot of money, somewhere a lot of money, somewhere a lot of money, somewhere between three and between three and between three and four hundred thousand four hundred thousand four hundred thousand dollars a year, which would dollars a year, which would dollars a year, which would go to them. So he would, go to them. So he would, go to them. So he would, you know, lose it.

you know, lose it. you know, lose it. He would lose his He would lose his He would lose his lucrative lucrative lucrative sales job with a sales job with a sales job with a salary of salary of salary of $200,000 a year. All this $200,000 a year. All this . Therefore, the prosecution . Therefore, the prosecution . Therefore, the prosecution stated that the motive was stated that the motive was stated that the motive was obvious. He wanted to obvious. He wanted to obvious. He wanted to get rid of his wife, get rid of his wife, get rid of his wife, maintain his status, maintain his status, maintain his status, you know, be a you know, be a you know, be a compassionate widower- compassionate widower- victim, and be with victim, and be with victim, and be with his, you know, his, you know, his, you know, much younger much younger much younger mistress. mistress. True. True. All of these True. True. All of these reasons are selfish, reasons are selfish, reasons are selfish, horrible, but yes. horrible, but yes. horrible, but yes. Certainly. And this Certainly. And this Certainly. And this picture was picture was painted extremely clearly before the painted extremely clearly before the jury. They didn't jury. They didn't jury. They didn't believe a single believe a single believe a single sob he made. They sob he made. They sob he made. They saw through him. saw through him. saw through him. But I want to say that But I want to say that But I want to say that one of the reasons, and there are one of the reasons, and there are one of the reasons, and there are several, why several, why Ms. Ms. Botner was not charged, besides the Botner was not charged, besides the Botner was not charged, besides the lack of an lack of an lack of an overt overt overt criminal act... criminal act... I think there is an argument for I think there is an argument for I think there is an argument for that, but that, but that, but she had no she had no she had no financial interest financial interest financial interest in this case. I think in this case. I think in this case. I think this is nonsense, because this is nonsense, because this is nonsense, because if he got the money if he got the money if he got the money , she would have gotten it too , she would have gotten it too , she would have gotten it too . And it seemed like . And it seemed like . And it seemed like their plan was to become a their plan was to become a their plan was to become a permanent couple, permanent couple, permanent couple, and everything that and everything that and everything that went with that, probably went with that, probably went with that, probably marriage in the future, marriage in the future, marriage in the future, when Ashley disappeared from the when Ashley disappeared from the when Ashley disappeared from the horizon.

horizon. horizon. So, I don't know. It's So, I don't know. It's So, I don't know. It's actually 50/50 whether actually 50/50 whether charges should have been brought. charges should have been brought. Well, here's the thing. Well, here's the thing. Well, here's the thing. In defense of the other woman In defense of the other woman , if you read the , if you read the , if you read the text text text messages, messages, messages, Mhm. She gave Mhm. She gave Mhm. She gave Caleb a lot of Caleb a lot of Caleb a lot of ultimatums because ultimatums because , from what I , from what I , from what I read, read, read, she seemed to believe he was she seemed to believe he was she seemed to believe he was serious about serious about serious about being with being with being with her and leaving his her and leaving his her and leaving his wife. And they wife. And they wife. And they talked a lot about talked a lot about talked a lot about divorce. So divorce. So divorce. So every time she every time she every time she believed that he would believed that he would believed that he would finally leave finally leave finally leave his wife, then, you know, his wife, then, you know, his wife, then, you know, the other woman thought, " the other woman thought, " Okay, we finally have a Okay, we finally have a Okay, we finally have a relationship." And she relationship." And she backed down several times because, backed down several times because, you know, at that moment she you know, at that moment she you know, at that moment she felt like she was being felt like she was being felt like she was being led by the nose. Now, led by the nose. Now, led by the nose. Now, in her defense, in the in her defense, in the in her defense, in the last letter or last letter or last letter or message, message, message, sorry, in the last sorry, in the last sorry, in the last message, where he message, where he message, where he said he was said he was said he was going to going to going to do this. It will finally do this. It will finally do this. It will finally happen. He will be happen. He will be happen. He will be free. She free. She free. She replies that oh, you're replies that oh, you're replies that oh, you're finally going to finally going to finally going to divorce your divorce your divorce your wife. She never wife. She never wife. She never says, well, says, well, says, well, she says she she says she she says she doesn't like Ashley either, doesn't like Ashley either, doesn't like Ashley either, says a lot of says a lot of says a lot of nasty things and would be nasty things and would be nasty things and would be glad if she disappeared and was glad if she disappeared and was glad if she disappeared and was done with. So done with. So done with. So the question is, does the question is, does the question is, does "getting rid of "getting rid of "getting rid of her" mean her" mean her" mean something as something as something as serious as murder in her mind serious as murder in her mind , or did she expect , or did she expect , or did she expect that one day this guy that one day this guy that one day this guy would pluck up would pluck up would pluck up the courage to finally

the courage to finally the courage to finally file for file for file for divorce? divorce? divorce? Yes. I'm Yes. I'm Yes. I'm just putting this forward just putting this forward just putting this forward as a defense argument. as a defense argument. as a defense argument. No, I, I, I hear you. But there No, I, I, I hear you. But there No, I, I, I hear you. But there were over 100,000 were over 100,000 were over 100,000 messages there, the FBI messages there, the FBI messages there, the FBI recovered them, and many recovered them, and many recovered them, and many times during her times during her times during her correspondence with Caleb, correspondence with Caleb, correspondence with Caleb, our mistress, Ms. our mistress, Ms. our mistress, Ms. Botner, made statements Botner, made statements Botner, made statements like—and this is like—and this is like—and this is a quote—"I want to kill a quote—"I want to kill a quote—"I want to kill her, Caleb." her, Caleb." She says it was She says it was just emotional just emotional just emotional outbursts, and I understand outbursts, and I understand outbursts, and I understand that she's said that that she's said that that she's said that repeatedly, and I repeatedly, and I repeatedly, and I understand that it doesn't quite understand that it doesn't quite understand that it doesn't quite amount to a amount to a amount to a conspiracy to commit a conspiracy to commit a conspiracy to commit a real...Right. real...Right. real...Right. Murder. I, I understand Murder. I, I understand , but this really borders , but this really borders , but this really borders on that. I think they were on that. I think they were on that. I think they were missing one piece of the missing one piece of the missing one piece of the puzzle to hold puzzle to hold puzzle to hold her her her accountable. And accountable. And accountable. And look, if look, if look, if new evidence comes out new evidence comes out new evidence comes out ...look, ...look, ...look, she also she also she also denied having a denied having a denied having a relationship with Caleb relationship with Caleb relationship with Caleb when she was first when she was first when she was first questioned by the FBI, and questioned by the FBI, and questioned by the FBI, and then when they then when they then when they showed her the showed her the showed her the text text text messages, she messages, she messages, she confessed. Yes. So, I do confessed. Yes. So, I do confessed. Yes. So, I do n't know, but they're n't know, but they're n't know, but they're missing one piece of the missing one piece of the missing one piece of the puzzle, and if puzzle, and if puzzle, and if new evidence comes to light new evidence comes to light new evidence comes to light , she could still be , she could still be prosecuted.

prosecuted. She never She never She never received immunity, received immunity, received immunity, which is simply amazing. Uh, which is simply amazing. Uh, which is simply amazing. Uh, immunity offers immunity offers immunity offers from anyone. from anyone. from anyone. Yes. Well, I, I know there's Yes. Well, I, I know there's Yes. Well, I, I know there's been a lot of been a lot of been a lot of discussion online about her discussion online about her discussion online about her potential possible potential possible potential possible guilt in this case. guilt in this case. And I really think that And I really think that people are very foolish people are very foolish people are very foolish in using the expression in using the expression in using the expression "I'll kill him" or "I'll "I'll kill him" or "I'll "I'll kill him" or "I'll kill her." I kill her." I kill her." I mean, it's so mean, it's so mean, it's so ridiculous, people, ridiculous, people, ridiculous, people, especially when someone especially when someone especially when someone later turns out to be later turns out to be later turns out to be dead. Uh, I also dead. Uh, I also dead. Uh, I also believe, I also believe, I also believe, I also believe that she believe that she believe that she played an important role played an important role played an important role in this in this conviction. Even if she didn't Even if she didn't sit there to sit there to sit there to write and read those write and read those write and read those very shameful very shameful very shameful messages, because messages, because messages, because someone else could have someone else could have someone else could have read them if she had read them if she had read them if she had refused. refused. refused. I agree, it's I agree, it's I agree, it's suspicious that she suspicious that she suspicious that she lied to the FBI. Oh no. Oh lied to the FBI. Oh no. Oh lied to the FBI. Oh no. Oh no. "We didn't have an no. "We didn't have an no. "We didn't have an affair." Ashley affair." Ashley affair." Ashley is found dead, and is found dead, and is found dead, and suddenly, you know, suddenly, you know, suddenly, you know, the police are like, "What the the police are like, "What the the police are like, "What the hell hell hell is going on here?" And she is going on here?" And she is going on here?" And she denies it until denies it until denies it until they show her they show her they show her proof, because what did she proof, because what did she proof, because what did she do? She do? She do? She deleted all her deleted all her deleted all her messages. And about messages. And about messages. And about a month or two before a month or two before a month or two before that, her laptop and that, her laptop and that, her laptop and another device, her another device, her another device, her phone, seemed to disappear phone, seemed to disappear phone, seemed to disappear while she was on vacation.

while she was on vacation. while she was on vacation. What a convenient coincidence, What a convenient coincidence, What a convenient coincidence, right? right? right? Mhm. Very convenient. Yes Mhm. Very convenient. Yes . No, no, I agree. . No, no, I agree. . No, no, I agree. She would have passed out. She She would have passed out. She She would have passed out. She came here came here came here with dirty hands anyway, and with dirty hands anyway, and with dirty hands anyway, and even despite everything even despite everything even despite everything the prosecutor put the prosecutor put the prosecutor put her through, she her through, she her through, she cooperated. She cooperated. She cooperated. She testified, and as you testified, and as you testified, and as you pointed out, her pointed out, her pointed out, her testimony was testimony was testimony was crucial to crucial to Caleb's sentencing. So the jury Caleb's sentencing. So the jury still found her still found her still found her testimony testimony testimony credible, despite her credible, despite her credible, despite her story. So it was the story. So it was the story. So it was the right move. Yes, right move. Yes, right move. Yes, of course. of course. of course. Let me ask Let me ask Let me ask you and our audience, you and our audience, you and our audience, I want to hear your I want to hear your I want to hear your comments. So she's 20. comments. So she's 20. comments. So she's 20. Yes. When this all Yes. When this all Yes. When this all starts, he's not the starts, he's not the starts, he's not the last person in last person in last person in town, right? A leader in the town, right? A leader in the town, right? A leader in the church. Of course. church. Of course. church. Of course. Yes. As a pastor, I Yes. As a pastor, I Yes. As a pastor, I mean, mean, mean, and he always sang, and and he always sang, and and he always sang, and she loved to sing. she loved to sing. There's a video where she's There's a video where she's singing and he's behind singing and he's behind singing and he's behind her. So, her. So, you know, was she... I don't want to use I don't want to use I don't want to use the word "blinded" the word "blinded" the word "blinded" here, because that's too much. here, because that's too much. he was much he was much older and if he older and if he older and if he really told her that was really told her that was really told her that was exactly what their exactly what their exactly what their relationship status was and relationship status was and relationship status was and she really thought it would she really thought it would lead to something. I'm just lead to something. I'm just saying she's the saying she's the saying she's the younger side here.

younger side here. Believe me, I am not defending Believe me, I am not defending this woman. this woman. this woman. I'm just trying to put I'm just trying to put I'm just trying to put all the pieces of the puzzle all the pieces of the puzzle all the pieces of the puzzle together. together. together. I hear you. That is, he I hear you. That is, he I hear you. That is, he had more chances had more chances had more chances to manipulate her to manipulate her to manipulate her because of his position. because of his position. because of his position. Yes. And maybe she Yes. And maybe she Yes. And maybe she was blinded by him. was blinded by him. was blinded by him. And look, this And look, this And look, this happens all the time happens all the time . There is nothing wrong with this . There is nothing wrong with this . There is nothing wrong with this . Let me . Let me . Let me clarify, okay? There are clarify, okay? There are clarify, okay? There are many relationships that many relationships that many relationships that work out very work out very work out very well, even if there is a well, even if there is a well, even if there is a difference of 15-20 difference of 15-20 difference of 15-20 years or more between them. years or more between them. years or more between them. So, you know, it's not So, you know, it's not So, you know, it's not just...Yes, it just...Yes, it just...Yes, it happens. It happens. It happens. It just happens. And just happens. And just happens. And I...all these discussions, I do I...all these discussions, I do I...all these discussions, I do n't want to have them because I n't want to have them because I n't want to have them because I want to bury this want to bury this want to bury this clown. The jury has clown. The jury has clown. The jury has already done that. It's already done that. It's already done that. It's Caleb's fault. This Caleb's fault. This Caleb's fault. This monster, and what he monster, and what he monster, and what he decided to do, and how decided to do, and how decided to do, and how he made his he made his he made his children suffer their whole children suffer their whole children suffer their whole lives, how they will now lives, how they will now lives, how they will now live, and live, and live, and using them, as using them, as using them, as we find out, for we find out, for we find out, for his alibi. his alibi. Alibi. Disgusting. Alibi. Disgusting. I know. No, believe me, I am I know. No, believe me, I am I know. No, believe me, I am disgusted by this disgusted by this disgusted by this person. I am angry person. I am angry person. I am angry about this situation.

about this situation. about this situation. There is no, never any There is no, never any There is no, never any reason to kill reason to kill reason to kill anyone, okay? anyone, okay? anyone, okay? Apart from self-defense, Apart from self-defense, Apart from self-defense, of course? Besides that. of course? Besides that. But to do it to Ashley like this But to do it to Ashley like this , and , and , and then this ridiculous then this ridiculous then this ridiculous plan—this man is plan—this man is plan—this man is just a fool. I'm just I'm just a fool. I'm just I'm just a fool. I'm just I'm so so so angry about what he angry about what he angry about what he did to those did to those did to those girls. They girls. They girls. They will always know that will always know that will always know that in the house where they in the house where they in the house where they grew up, their father grew up, their father grew up, their father killed their mother. killed their mother. Yes. Yes. OK. And now they have OK. And now they have OK. And now they have no mother, and no no mother, and no no mother, and no father, because he father, because he father, because he will spend the rest of his life in will spend the rest of his life in will spend the rest of his life in prison. Enough already. prison. Enough already. prison. Enough already. I'm just like, yeah, all the I'm just like, yeah, all the I'm just like, yeah, all the anger should be anger should be anger should be directed at that. directed at that. I hope, and I hope, and judging by everything you judging by everything you judging by everything you just said, just said, just said, maybe someday, if maybe someday, if maybe someday, if he is still a believer or he is still a believer or he is still a believer or was one, if it is at least was one, if it is at least was one, if it is at least some some some incentive for him, he incentive for him, he incentive for him, he will confess to his daughters what he did will confess to his daughters what he did will confess to his daughters what he did , and it could , and it could , and it could be a great healing for them be a great healing for them be a great healing for them . That would be the . That would be the . That would be the only future only future only future connection I would connection I would connection I would want between them.

want between them. want between them. And you know what? They And you know what? They And you know what? They will decide for themselves what is best will decide for themselves what is best will decide for themselves what is best for these girls, it for these girls, it for these girls, it will be their choice. And we've will be their choice. And we've will be their choice. And we've seen, you know, every seen, you know, every seen, you know, every family deals with family deals with family deals with it differently. We've it differently. We've it differently. We've seen incredible seen incredible seen incredible situations, you know, situations, you know, situations, you know, where one parent where one parent where one parent kills the other, and how the kills the other, and how the kills the other, and how the remaining children either remaining children either remaining children either support or don't support or don't support or don't support the relationship support the relationship support the relationship with the murderous parent. This is a with the murderous parent. This is a with the murderous parent. This is a very difficult path. The very difficult path. The very difficult path. The only thing that only thing that only thing that matters is their matters is their matters is their well-being and health. well-being and health. well-being and health. That's the only thing that That's the only thing that That's the only thing that matters here. You know, matters here. You know, matters here. You know, Caleb will get Caleb will get Caleb will get food, medical care food, medical care , and he can play , and he can play , and he can play guitar in church, or in guitar in church, or in guitar in church, or in church, or in prison church, or in prison , it doesn't matter. I , it doesn't matter. I , it doesn't matter. I just can't, I can't just can't, I can't just can't, I can't , I can't. , I can't. , I can't. OK. Another question is OK. Another question is OK. Another question is whether Ashley knew or not. whether Ashley knew or not. So, while we So, while we were going to were going to were going to go into detail, it go into detail, it go into detail, it came out in court came out in court came out in court that there were at least two that there were at least two that there were at least two or three instances where or three instances where or three instances where Ashley Ashley Ashley suspected something. suspected something.

For example, Ashley For example, Ashley discovered a text discovered a text discovered a text message between message between message between lovers that lovers that lovers that contained a photo. What was contained a photo. What was contained a photo. What was in that photo? Oh my God in that photo? Oh my God . It was Alia's hand with a wedding . It was Alia's hand with a wedding ring painted on it. Oh my God. ring painted on it. Oh my God. Oh, what they did to Oh, what they did to Oh, what they did to that woman. Poor that woman. Poor that woman. Poor Ashley. I know it's not the Ashley. I know it's not the Ashley. I know it's not the worst, but it worst, but it worst, but it bothered me. bothered me. bothered me. Right. Yes. Right. Yes. Right. Yes. This was also evident This was also evident This was also evident in Port Lewis. So, in Port Lewis. So, in Port Lewis. So, Caleb and Ashley are on a Caleb and Ashley are on a Caleb and Ashley are on a cruise for cruise for cruise for their 15th their 15th their 15th wedding anniversary. Oh, God, wedding anniversary. Oh, God, wedding anniversary. Oh, God, help us. Oh my God help us. Oh my God help us. Oh my God . So what does poor . So what does poor . So what does poor Ashley discover on this Ashley discover on this Ashley discover on this cruise? That he still cruise? That he still cruise? That he still writes to his lover. writes to his lover. writes to his lover. So, Ashley So, Ashley So, Ashley contacts her contacts her contacts her lover and says, "I lover and says, "I lover and says, "I want to want to want to meet you." And then meet you." And then meet you." And then the mistress, you know, it the mistress, you know, it the mistress, you know, it came out in court that came out in court that came out in court that she said, "No, I didn't she said, "No, I didn't she said, "No, I didn't want to date want to date want to date Ashley." I was Ashley." I was Ashley." I was too scared. Well, too scared. Well, too scared. Well, of course. of course. of course. Yes. Probably true. Yes. Probably true. Yes. Probably true. The truth. The truth. The truth. Yes. Yes. Yes. I don't blame you. I I don't blame you. I I don't blame you. I don't think she would have don't think she would have don't think she would have done anything, but done anything, but done anything, but she would have been a very she would have been a very she would have been a very angry woman, and deservedly so angry woman, and deservedly so angry woman, and deservedly so .

. . Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Oh my God. Okay, Oh my God. Okay, Oh my God. Okay, back to Aaliyah back to Aaliyah back to Aaliyah and Caleb, because we're and Caleb, because we're and Caleb, because we're coming to the coming to the coming to the climax. She climax. She climax. She gave him several gave him several gave him several deadlines. You know, deadlines. You know, deadlines. You know, if you don't leave if you don't leave if you don't leave your wife, I your wife, I your wife, I can't wait for you anymore can't wait for you anymore can't wait for you anymore . Of course. . Of course. . Of course. Yes. And then Caleb at Yes. And then Caleb at Yes. And then Caleb at one point, this is one of the one point, this is one of the one point, this is one of the messages, quote: " messages, quote: " If I could literally If I could literally If I could literally kill her and not kill her and not kill her and not go to hell, I would go to hell, I would go to hell, I would do it in a heartbeat." " do it in a heartbeat." " That's how That's how That's how dark and dark and dark and hateful I hateful I hateful I feel." Dude, you're feel." Dude, you're feel." Dude, you're going to hell, not going to hell, not going to hell, not getting the golden getting the golden getting the golden ticket. You are going to ticket. You are going to ticket. You are going to hell. hell. hell. Yes. But you know, in Yes. But you know, in Yes. But you know, in all this, Annette, I all this, Annette, I all this, Annette, I never heard never heard never heard her do anything? her do anything? her do anything? Yes. Yes. Yes. What would justify What would justify What would justify such feelings on his such feelings on his such feelings on his part towards her. Where did part towards her. Where did part towards her. Where did this this this hatred come from? What exactly hatred come from? What exactly hatred come from? What exactly did she do? I don't did she do? I don't did she do? I don't see the connection here. see the connection here. Oh, because he had to Oh, because he had to make a devil out of her make a devil out of her to allow himself to to allow himself to to allow himself to live that life, because live that life, because live that life, because it was it was it was unfair to unfair to unfair to him. He called him. He called him. He called his wife a his wife a his wife a satanic satanic satanic offspring. Do you know who offspring. Do you know who offspring. Do you know who is of Satanic descent in this case is of Satanic descent in this case ?

? Yes, I am, yes. Yes, I am, yes. Yes, I am, yes. His name is Caleb. His name is Caleb. His name is Caleb. Yes. Is he Yes. Is he Yes. Is he Satanic, yes. Satanic, yes. Satanic, yes. breed. He then breed. He then breed. He then writes in another writes in another writes in another text text text message: "I would message: "I would message: "I would kill my wife kill my wife kill my wife if God would if God would if God would forgive me." No, God will forgive me." No, God will forgive me." No, God will not forgive you. No, not forgive you. No, not forgive you. No, absolutely not. This will absolutely not. This will absolutely not. This will not happen. In not happen. In not happen. In another message, another message, another message, he writes: "I stayed up until he writes: "I stayed up until he writes: "I stayed up until 4 am, crying." Oh 4 am, crying." Oh 4 am, crying." Oh my god, these tears from this my god, these tears from this my god, these tears from this man. "And I'm a crybaby man. "And I'm a crybaby , Lewis, as you know." , Lewis, as you know." , Lewis, as you know." I'm a crybaby, but he's not I'm a crybaby, but he's not I'm a crybaby, but he's not allowed to cry. allowed to cry. allowed to cry. Absolutely not. I want Absolutely not. I want Absolutely not. I want his tears. I want his tears. I want his tears. I want him to stop crying him to stop crying him to stop crying because he annoys me. because he annoys me. because he annoys me. Yes, it's annoying. Yes, it's annoying. Yes, it's annoying. He is very annoying. He is He is very annoying. He is He is very annoying. He is very annoying. He writes: very annoying. He writes: very annoying. He writes: "I stayed up until 4 a.m., "I stayed up until 4 a.m., "I stayed up until 4 a.m., crying, literally crying, literally crying, literally thinking about how to kill her and thinking about how to kill her and thinking about how to kill her and not go to not go to not go to jail." "Well, you jail." "Well, you jail." "Well, you lost, buddy. lost, buddy. Okay. So, January Okay. So, January 2026, Alia 2026, Alia 2026, Alia got tired of waiting for got tired of waiting for got tired of waiting for Caleb, right? Because Caleb, right? Because Caleb, right? Because he didn't have the he didn't have the he didn't have the courage courage courage to break up with his to break up with his to break up with his wife. Caleb wife. Caleb wife. Caleb was getting more and more was getting more and more was getting more and more desperate. And desperate. And desperate. And every time she every time she every time she pulled away, he pulled away, he pulled away, he tried to... You know tried to... You know tried to... You know how it is in how it is in how it is in relationships. You think relationships. You think relationships. You think she's leaving, and you start she's leaving, and you start she's leaving, and you start paying more paying more paying more attention. Oh my god. He attention. Oh my god. He attention. Oh my god. He writes songs for her writes songs for her writes songs for her using AI to using AI to using AI to get her back. You know get her back. You know get her back. You know what? You'll hear these what? You'll hear these what? You'll hear these songs and you'll immediately songs and you'll immediately songs and you'll immediately run the other way.

run the other way. run the other way. They're terrible songs. They're terrible songs. They're terrible songs. They're useless. And they They're useless. And they They're useless. And they were played in were played in were played in court, by the way. For those of you who court, by the way. For those of you who court, by the way. For those of you who were watching, or if you were were watching, or if you were were watching, or if you were n't watching—not only is n't watching—not only is n't watching—not only is the song the song the song terrible, and we're going to terrible, and we're going to terrible, and we're going to play it for you, but the play it for you, but the play it for you, but the faces of the people faces of the people faces of the people sitting in the audience, the sitting in the audience, the sitting in the audience, the relatives, the friends... relatives, the friends... right? Oh my god, they Oh my god, they were trying so hard not to were trying so hard not to were trying so hard not to laugh at laugh at laugh at how stupid and how stupid and how stupid and awful these songs that awful these songs that awful these songs that it was just it was just it was just solid Spanish solid Spanish solid Spanish shy, just shy, just shy, just awful. And, um, a special awful. And, um, a special awful. And, um, a special shoutout to one of shoutout to one of shoutout to one of Lorenzo's friends. Lorenzo's friends. Lorenzo is my son, and Lorenzo is my son, and his friend Joey is a fan of his friend Joey is a fan of his friend Joey is a fan of this podcast, and he this podcast, and he texted me, "Your texted me, "Your mom should put this mom should put this mom should put this song on the podcast and song on the podcast and song on the podcast and talk about it." talk about it." So, Joey, this is for So, Joey, this is for you. Let's you. Let's you. Let's listen. listen. listen. We were just We were just We were just friends, but this is what friends, but this is what friends, but this is what we are in our heads.

we are in our heads. When I first saw When I first saw you, the room disappeared. you, the room disappeared. The man is a brilliant The man is a brilliant poet. poet. Yeah. I... I wonder Yeah. I... I wonder what AI would write a new what AI would write a new what AI would write a new song, the next song song, the next song . I would like to hear it. Oh . I would like to hear it. Oh . I would like to hear it. Oh my God. What's wrong with this my God. What's wrong with this my God. What's wrong with this man? man? Honestly, I Honestly, I just... I can't with just... I can't with just... I can't with him. I can't. Okay. him. I can't. Okay. him. I can't. Okay. The night before The night before The night before Ashley is murdered, Caleb texts Ashley is murdered, Caleb texts Ashley is murdered, Caleb texts Aaliyah. Aaliyah. Quote: "I choose you. I am free. The action will be I am free. The action will be tomorrow. February 16th, a day tomorrow. February 16th, a day I will never I will never I will never forget. Alia said she forget. Alia said she forget. Alia said she believed it was believed it was believed it was only about only about only about divorce. divorce. divorce. Aha. Aha. Aha. That this was the day That this was the day That this was the day he was going to tell he was going to tell he was going to tell her, not the day he her, not the day he her, not the day he was going to kill her. was going to kill her. was going to kill her. Police were called to the Police were called to the Police were called to the Flynn residence Flynn residence Flynn residence shortly after 2:30 shortly after 2:30 shortly after 2:30 a.m. on February 16, 2026. It's a.m. on February 16, 2026. It's a.m. on February 16, 2026. It's amazing how quickly this amazing how quickly this amazing how quickly this thing went from...

thing went from... thing went from... It's really...it's It's really...it's It's really...it's really true. Everything really true. Everything really true. Everything flew by. This whole...I've flew by. This whole...I've flew by. This whole...I've never seen it never seen it never seen it go so go so go so fast, honestly. Never. fast, honestly. Never. fast, honestly. Never. You've been waiting for years for a trial, You've been waiting for years for a trial, You've been waiting for years for a trial, right? right? right? Incredible. So, Incredible. So, Incredible. So, you know, Caleb you know, Caleb you know, Caleb reports a burglary, reports a burglary, reports a burglary, claiming that his claiming that his claiming that his wife was shot in the wife was shot in the wife was shot in the back of the head, as we back of the head, as we back of the head, as we noted earlier. How noted earlier. How noted earlier. How did he know there did he know there did he know there were two were two were two shots to the head, Lewis? shots to the head, Lewis? shots to the head, Lewis? Oh, he knew because he Oh, he knew because he Oh, he knew because he fired twice. fired twice. fired twice. Simply. It's very easy. Simply. It's very easy. But who wouldn't have that But who wouldn't have that reaction if you reaction if you reaction if you suddenly find, suddenly find, suddenly find, even if you even if you even if you hate your hate your hate your partner, you live with partner, you live with partner, you live with them, and you find them, and you find them, and you find them dead in bed covered them dead in bed covered them dead in bed covered in blood. How can you in blood. How can you in blood. How can you know what happened to them know what happened to them know what happened to them ? Is ? Is ? Is n't that right? You can't n't that right? You can't n't that right? You can't . And this is one of the . And this is one of the . And this is one of the things that things that the investigators paid attention to when we were the investigators paid attention to when we were dealing with this, dealing with this, dealing with this, because later they because later they because later they mentioned it in mentioned it in mentioned it in one of the interviews. one of the interviews. one of the interviews. Yes. Yes. And now a little bit more from the And now a little bit more from the 911 call. This is 911 call. This is 911 call. This is all very strange, because all very strange, because all very strange, because he says in this he says in this he says in this call that he's afraid call that he's afraid call that he's afraid that the intruder might that the intruder might that the intruder might still be in the still be in the still be in the house. However, he house. However, he house. However, he admits to the admits to the admits to the 911 dispatcher that 911 dispatcher that 911 dispatcher that his two daughters are alone in his two daughters are alone in his two daughters are alone in another room, in another room, in another room, in their bedroom.

their bedroom. True. True. This is true. God, This is true. God, This is true. God, help me. True. help me. True. help me. True. That's what they say. That's what they say. That's what they say. I'm too scared to I'm too scared to I'm too scared to go there. True. go there. True. go there. True. The thief could be there The thief could be there The thief could be there with my children. with my children. with my children. True. True. True. What kind of father? What kind of What kind of father? What kind of What kind of father? What kind of father? If he father? If he father? If he believed there was an believed there was an believed there was an intruder with intruder with intruder with a gun who a gun who a gun who appeared to have just killed appeared to have just killed appeared to have just killed your wife, would your wife, would your wife, would you leave your you leave your you leave your children alone? Never. children alone? Never. children alone? Never. You would take them away immediately You would take them away immediately You would take them away immediately . . Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. True. You know there is True. You know there is True. You know there is no threat. no threat. no threat. There is no threat. Yes. There is no threat. Yes. There is no threat. Yes. So, during this 8- So, during this 8- minute minute minute 911 call, he tells 911 call, he tells 911 call, he tells the dispatcher that the dispatcher that the dispatcher that he's in the he's in the he's in the girls' bedroom, claims girls' bedroom, claims girls' bedroom, claims that someone came in that someone came in that someone came in through the garage, broke into through the garage, broke into through the garage, broke into his truck, his truck, his truck, took a gun from the took a gun from the took a gun from the center console. center console. Then Then the video from the the video from the the video from the police officer's body camera comes out police officer's body camera comes out , and oh my god, that's , and oh my god, that's , and oh my god, that's incredible too, because you're incredible too, because you're incredible too, because you're watching this video. watching this video. Caleb is in the house in Caleb is in the house in hysterics. He is hysterics. He is hysterics. He is trembling. He is crying. trembling. He is crying. trembling. He is crying. He falls. He's He falls. He's He falls. He's sick of being on the front sick of being on the front sick of being on the front lawn. I believe lawn. I believe lawn. I believe he was truly sick.

he was truly sick. he was truly sick. He was sick because He was sick because He was sick because now you know because now you know because now you know because he probably... he probably... he probably... because of what he because of what he because of what he did. I mean did. I mean , of course, someone would be , of course, someone would be , of course, someone would be hysterical if hysterical if hysterical if their partner, their partner, their partner, their spouse, had their spouse, had their spouse, had just been murdered. I just been murdered. I just been murdered. I understand that. But other understand that. But other understand that. But other things you things you things you notice when you call notice when you call notice when you call 911: there were two 911: there were two 911: there were two big cute dogs there big cute dogs there big cute dogs there when the officer when the officer when the officer tries to enter. tries to enter. tries to enter. These dogs never These dogs never These dogs never barked. barked. No, never. Never. And No, never. Never. And it was Ashley's father, it was Ashley's father, it was Ashley's father, or father-in-law, who or father-in-law, who or father-in-law, who said, knowing the dogs, said, knowing the dogs, said, knowing the dogs, knowing the house, "I can't knowing the house, "I can't knowing the house, "I can't believe the dogs have believe the dogs have believe the dogs have n't gone crazy," that n't gone crazy," that n't gone crazy," that was his quote. Is was his quote. Is was his quote. Is n't that right? n't that right? n't that right? Well, there's a reason for that. Well, there's a reason for that. Well, there's a reason for that. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. OK. OK. OK. He missed it. Yes. He missed it. Yes. He missed it. Yes. Yes. He missed that Yes. He missed that Yes. He missed that part. He part. He part. He missed that part. missed that part. missed that part. Now, in this bodycam video, Now, in this bodycam video, he's calling his he's calling his mother. So, please mother. So, please mother. So, please listen to this listen to this listen to this dialogue. The girls are dialogue. The girls are dialogue. The girls are sleeping. sleeping. Can I go to the Can I go to the police station? police station? police station? I don't know what to do. I do I don't know what to do. I do I don't know what to do. I do n't know what to do. I do n't know what to do. I do n't know what to do. I do n't know what to do either n't know what to do either .

. . I don't know what to I don't know what to I don't know what to do either. do either. I'm just in I'm just in complete...I'm in shock complete...I'm in shock . . . He's just He's just He's just trying to trying to trying to stand out to stand out to stand out to look good look good look good in the eyes of others, in the eyes of others, in the eyes of others, right? right? right? Things he should have Things he should have Things he should have done. Even done. Even done. Even a call to my mom is a a call to my mom is a a call to my mom is a downfall. He downfall. He downfall. He tries to fulfill tries to fulfill tries to fulfill all the points to all the points to all the points to show that, in his show that, in his show that, in his opinion, he had nothing to do with opinion, he had nothing to do with opinion, he had nothing to do with this. this. this. And you know what? I think the And you know what? I think the police were police were led to do this to some extent. And that's the led to do this to some extent. And that's the led to do this to some extent. And that's the part that part that part that also outrages me. I'll also outrages me. I'll also outrages me. I'll let you let you let you continue, Lewis. continue, Lewis. continue, Lewis. You know what makes me You know what makes me You know what makes me angry. Because they didn't angry. Because they didn't angry. Because they didn't check their hands for check their hands for check their hands for any of his... any of his... start. Please. start. Please. Yes. Well, there are other things there too Yes. Well, there are other things there too Yes. Well, there are other things there too . I have so . I have so . I have so many questions about many questions about many questions about this. Of course, we are this. Of course, we are this. Of course, we are now "wise in now "wise in now "wise in hindsight." Very hindsight." Very hindsight." Very convenient. But this is something I convenient. But this is something I convenient. But this is something I can't just can't just can't just leave because I didn't leave because I didn't ...they ...they ...they made excuses for made excuses for made excuses for not testing for not testing for not testing for gunpowder residue. Um, gunpowder residue. Um, gunpowder residue. Um, because they didn't suspect him at the time because they didn't suspect him at the time . And I . And I think, oh my god, you don't have to think, oh my god, you don't have to suspect someone of a suspect someone of a crime. He was in the crime. He was in the crime. He was in the house. And many house. And many house. And many may not may not may not like it, but you like it, but you like it, but you should have should have should have checked his hands, checked his hands, checked his hands, whether whether whether you consider him a you consider him a you consider him a suspect or not.

suspect or not. suspect or not. It doesn't matter, It doesn't matter, It doesn't matter, but if the kids are but if the kids are but if the kids are old enough, you old enough, you old enough, you should have should have should have checked their checked their checked their hands too. They were in the hands too. They were in the hands too. They were in the house. Everyone who was house. Everyone who was house. Everyone who was in that house—this is what in that house—this is what in that house—this is what you must do you must do . Of course, children . Of course, children . Of course, children must be handled must be handled must be handled very carefully and very carefully and very carefully and as as as gently as possible. gently as possible. gently as possible. But not checking But not checking But not checking it...you're absolutely it...you're absolutely it...you're absolutely right. You hit the right. You hit the right. You hit the mark, mark, mark, Ale. They believed them up to a Ale. They believed them up to a Ale. They believed them up to a point, point, point, right? Maybe right? Maybe right? Maybe even before the first even before the first even before the first interview, maybe interview, maybe interview, maybe too much. too much. too much. We will discuss We will discuss We will discuss this in more detail during the this in more detail during the this in more detail during the conversation. conversation. conversation. Yes. I just...it was Yes. I just...it was Yes. I just...it was shocking, you know, I had to shocking, you know, I had to shocking, you know, I had to when I when I when I was preparing for this, was preparing for this, was preparing for this, because I had because I had because I had covered this covered this covered this case before, but there case before, but there case before, but there was a lot was a lot was a lot that we didn't know at the that we didn't know at the that we didn't know at the time of his arrest and time of his arrest and indictment, and I indictment, and I thought, "No." I thought, "No." I thought, "No." I had to check had to check had to check several sources, several sources, several sources, thinking that, you know, thinking that, you know, thinking that, you know, one reporter might have made one reporter might have made one reporter might have made a mistake. I'm like: " a mistake. I'm like: " No, no, no." Of course, No, no, no." Of course, No, no, no." Of course, they checked his they checked his they checked his hands and clothes for hands and clothes for hands and clothes for gunpowder gunpowder gunpowder fumes. I mean, it's fumes. I mean, it's fumes. I mean, it's absolutely absolutely absolutely impossible that they would impossible that they would impossible that they would n't do it, because n't do it, because n't do it, because the person is dead, yes, in the the person is dead, yes, in the the person is dead, yes, in the house. And the only house. And the only house. And the only person who person who person who tells you what tells you what tells you what happened is...

happened is... happened is... And then I And then I And then I listened to the testimony listened to the testimony listened to the testimony of the detective himself, who of the detective himself, who of the detective himself, who said, " said, " Well, besides, you know, Well, besides, you know, Well, besides, you know, we didn't think it was we didn't think it was we didn't think it was necessary," and that was the new necessary," and that was the new necessary," and that was the new answer for the court answer for the court answer for the court . Well, he . Well, he . Well, he already admitted that he went already admitted that he went already admitted that he went into the bedroom and touched into the bedroom and touched into the bedroom and touched his wife when he called his wife when he called his wife when he called 911. So there would still be 911. So there would still be 911. So there would still be gunpowder residue on him gunpowder residue on him gunpowder residue on him . . . So, that wouldn't So, that wouldn't So, that wouldn't prove anything. These were prove anything. These were prove anything. These were testimonies. testimonies. testimonies. Yes. Big mistake. Yes. Big mistake. Yes. Big mistake. Big mistake. And I...And Big mistake. And I...And Big mistake. And I...And he'll never he'll never he'll never do that again. The do that again. The do that again. The investigator who would investigator who would investigator who would not have participated in this. But, not have participated in this. But, not have participated in this. But, you know, there's a you know, there's a you know, there's a chain of custody there chain of custody there chain of custody there that should have detected that should have detected that should have detected this at many levels this at many levels this at many levels at the scene. at the scene. at the scene. Certainly. Damn, Anna, Certainly. Damn, Anna, Certainly. Damn, Anna, you read that they you read that they you read that they didn't do it, and I didn't do it, and I ...I think you ...I think you ...I think you texted me a texted me a texted me a few minutes later, and I few minutes later, and I few minutes later, and I felt that felt that felt that intensity: "Oh my intensity: "Oh my intensity: "Oh my god, they didn't god, they didn't god, they didn't check for check for check for gunpowder gases." They gunpowder gases." They ...they didn't...I can't ...they didn't...I can't ...they didn't...I can't believe they didn't believe they didn't believe they didn't do that in this do that in this do that in this case. Yes, I couldn't either case. Yes, I couldn't either case. Yes, I couldn't either . It's just...It does . It's just...It does . It's just...It does n't make n't make n't make any sense at all. This any sense at all. This any sense at all. This was a mistake. It was an was a mistake. It was an was a mistake. It was an absolute mistake, and absolute mistake, and absolute mistake, and they were lucky it didn't backfire they were lucky it didn't backfire they were lucky it didn't backfire .

. . Well, think about it, Well, think about it, Well, think about it, because that's what his defense because that's what his defense because that's what his defense was all along was all along was all along . You know, he . You know, he . You know, he says he didn't kill his says he didn't kill his says he didn't kill his wife. The wife. The wife. The defense strategy was as follows. defense strategy was as follows. defense strategy was as follows. Yes. A terrible man Yes. A terrible man , a liar, a traitor, all , a liar, a traitor, all , a liar, a traitor, all that. Horrible, that. Horrible, that. Horrible, horrible, terrible, horrible, terrible, horrible, terrible, but not a killer. They but not a killer. They but not a killer. They never found the never found the never found the murder weapon. And murder weapon. And murder weapon. And the defense can say, the defense can say, the defense can say, "Guys, there was nothing on this man's hands that had anything to do "Guys, there was nothing on this man's hands that had anything to do with a gun." So if with a gun." So if we didn't have those 100,000 we didn't have those 100,000 we didn't have those 100,000 messages and the messages and the messages and the ex-mistress, would there have been a ex-mistress, would there have been a conviction? Because no, no, probably not. They would. Yes probably not. They would. Yes . No, I...I don't believe . No, I...I don't believe . No, I...I don't believe he would be. But he would be. But he would be. But let's let's let's talk about the talk about the talk about the murder weapon for a second. murder weapon for a second. murder weapon for a second. Really. So, in the first Really. So, in the first Really. So, in the first two days, or two days, or two days, or at least while at least while at least while the police the police the police were working the were working the were working the crime scene, crime scene, crime scene, how far do you think the how far do you think the murder weapon could have been from the murder weapon could have been from the time it was time it was time it was used until used until used until the police the police the police found it in the found it in the found it in the house or anywhere house or anywhere house or anywhere near the scene? near the scene? near the scene? It couldn't be It couldn't be It couldn't be far. far. far. At that moment. Well, At that moment. Well, At that moment. Well, they can't they can't they can't find him because it's find him because it's been three days since they left the house or left him alone because they haven't arrested him yet. And during been three days since they left the house or left him alone because they haven't arrested him yet. And during those three days, I those three days, I those three days, I hope—I did hope—I did hope—I did n't hear anything about it in the n't hear anything about it in the n't hear anything about it in the testimony during the testimony during the testimony during the trial—that he trial—that he trial—that he was being watched was being watched . I don't know, but if . I don't know, but if . I don't know, but if not, he could have thrown it away not, he could have thrown it away not, he could have thrown it away . I believe . I believe . I believe this weapon was within this weapon was within this weapon was within reach on the reach on the reach on the property property property when the police were on when the police were on when the police were on scene. He hadn't had

scene. He hadn't had scene. He hadn't had time to leave yet, except to time to leave yet, except to time to leave yet, except to tie her to a tie her to a tie her to a balloon and balloon and balloon and send her flying, send her flying, send her flying, right? We've seen right? We've seen right? We've seen people try to people try to people try to do this before, right? do this before, right? do this before, right? But at least he would have But at least he would have But at least he would have done something if he done something if he done something if he had done something had done something had done something so so so extraordinary. However, those extraordinary. However, those extraordinary. However, those weapons were probably weapons were probably weapons were probably there at that time. there at that time. there at that time. Now, if he wasn't being followed Now, if he wasn't being followed Now, if he wasn't being followed or or or watched, he watched, he watched, he had three days to had three days to had three days to take her and take her and take her and get rid of her. get rid of her. get rid of her. Yes. Yes. Yes. But not before But not before But not before 911 officers arrived on 911 officers arrived on 911 officers arrived on the call. the call. the call. Incredible. It's just Incredible. It's just Incredible. It's just something truly something truly something truly incredible. I just, incredible. I just, incredible. I just, I just can't I just can't I just can't deal with it. I'm not deal with it. I'm not deal with it. I'm not trying to get off trying to get off trying to get off topic, but I want to topic, but I want to topic, but I want to point out something else point out something else point out something else because many of because many of because many of you have been obsessed with the you have been obsessed with the you have been obsessed with the Lindsey Lindsey Lindsey Clancy case from Clancy case from Clancy case from Massachusetts. A mother Massachusetts. A mother Massachusetts. A mother accused of accused of accused of murdering her three murdering her three murdering her three children. And you know, there children. And you know, there children. And you know, there were a lot of were a lot of were a lot of conspiracy theories about her conspiracy theories about her conspiracy theories about her husband back then. I'm not husband back then. I'm not husband back then. I'm not going to go into going to go into going to go into it, but I will say this, and it, but I will say this, and it, but I will say this, and I've I've I've said this many times on the podcast said this many times on the podcast said this many times on the podcast regarding that case. It regarding that case. It regarding that case. It was a triple was a triple was a triple murder. And when murder. And when murder. And when the police arrived on the the police arrived on the the police arrived on the scene, there was a woman scene, there was a woman scene, there was a woman who, you know, was lying on who, you know, was lying on who, you know, was lying on the ground, jumped out of the ground, jumped out of the ground, jumped out of the window, and three dead the window, and three dead the window, and three dead babies, they babies, they babies, they took the word took the word took the word of the man, the only of the man, the only of the man, the only survivor of this survivor of this survivor of this triple murder.

triple murder. And there were a lot of And there were a lot of forensic forensic forensic tests that were tests that were tests that were never conducted in the bedroom, never conducted in the bedroom, never conducted in the bedroom, at the crime scene. All of this at the crime scene. All of this at the crime scene. All of this , absolutely all of it, , absolutely all of it, , absolutely all of it, was never collected. was never collected. was never collected. Why? Because the police Why? Because the police Why? Because the police took the word of took the word of took the word of the survivor, the survivor, the survivor, the man, Patrick the man, Patrick the man, Patrick Clancy. I'm not saying Clancy. I'm not saying Clancy. I'm not saying he's lying. I'm not he's lying. I'm not he's lying. I'm not saying that. But I say: where the saying that. But I say: where the saying that. But I say: where the hell is the hell is the hell is the forensic forensic forensic evidence in this case? evidence in this case? evidence in this case? This is a triple This is a triple This is a triple murder. murder. murder. Yes. Yes. Yes. I...I can't Yes. Yes. Yes. I...I can't Yes. Yes. Yes. I...I can't believe it. Yes. And I don't believe it. Yes. And I don't believe it. Yes. And I don't know how this can know how this can know how this can happen in this day and age, happen in this day and age, happen in this day and age, right? I still do right? I still do right? I still do n't understand this, but I can't n't understand this, but I can't n't understand this, but I can't , I can't. That's the , I can't. That's the , I can't. That's the thing. The murder thing. The murder thing. The murder weapon was not found, weapon was not found, weapon was not found, Lewis, but three Lewis, but three Lewis, but three shell casings. No, sorry, shell casings. No, sorry, shell casings. No, sorry, two shell casings were found in the two shell casings were found in the two shell casings were found in the master bedroom master bedroom master bedroom near Ashley's body. near Ashley's body. Yes. These are two Yes. These are two 9mm caliber cartridges. 9mm caliber cartridges. 9mm caliber cartridges. Yes. I, I, I don't know. I haven't Yes. I, I, I don't know. I haven't Yes. I, I, I don't know. I haven't heard if they were able to heard if they were able to heard if they were able to get, maybe you get, maybe you get, maybe you know the answer, know the answer, know the answer, any any any forensic forensic forensic evidence from them, DNA or evidence from them, DNA or evidence from them, DNA or prints of any prints of any prints of any kind. I kind. I kind. I don't remember. I don't don't remember. I don't don't remember. I don't remember.

remember. remember. I didn't see that. But I didn't see that. But I didn't see that. But you know, there's a good you know, there's a good you know, there's a good chance that a good chance that a good chance that a good bloodhound, you bloodhound, you bloodhound, you know how we love know how we love know how we love bloodhounds here at bit. I could bloodhounds here at bit. I could take a trace from take a trace from those shell casings and get to the those shell casings and get to the those shell casings and get to the firearm. firearm. firearm. Well, here's something else. Dogs Well, here's something else. Dogs . That's the thing. . That's the thing. They brought in dogs They brought in dogs to search because at that to search because at that to search because at that point in time, the community point in time, the community point in time, the community thought for a while that a thought for a while that a madman was running around the area who had madman was running around the area who had just killed a mother of two just killed a mother of two just killed a mother of two . . Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. So they brought the So they brought the So they brought the dogs because they thought they dogs because they thought they dogs because they thought they were chasing someone. were chasing someone. were chasing someone. But here's the thing. But here's the thing. But here's the thing. But shell casing dogs But shell casing dogs But shell casing dogs and shell casing tracking dogs and shell casing tracking dogs are different are different types of dogs. types of dogs. types of dogs. Different. Yes. But I'm saying that the Different. Yes. But I'm saying that the Different. Yes. But I'm saying that the dogs dogs dogs didn't take anything, and there didn't take anything, and there didn't take anything, and there were no traces were no traces . . . No, but it's still No, but it's still No, but it's still incredibly useful incredibly useful incredibly useful information. They information. They information. They didn't take anything. didn't take anything. didn't take anything. Yes, that's exactly what I mean Yes, that's exactly what I mean Yes, that's exactly what I mean . . . Yes, I understand. Yes. Yes, I understand. Yes. Yes, I understand. Yes. Good. Got it. Good. Got it. Good. Got it. Got it. Got it. Got it. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. We think Yes. We think Yes. We think alike.

alike. alike. So everything already looks So everything already looks So everything already looks extremely extremely extremely suspicious. suspicious. suspicious. Meeting of like-minded people. Meeting of like-minded people. Meeting of like-minded people. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Which means, Yes. Which means, Yes. Which means, for example, for example, for example, your dogs don't pick up the your dogs don't pick up the your dogs don't pick up the trail. You don't see trail. You don't see trail. You don't see any traces. And any traces. And any traces. And then they say they then they say they then they say they searched the house, searched the house, searched the house, searched here, pulled out searched here, pulled out searched here, pulled out the insulation, but like you the insulation, but like you the insulation, but like you said, there was said, there was said, there was enough time to enough time to enough time to get rid of the weapons. So get rid of the weapons. So , he was finally , he was finally , he was finally arrested and arrested and charged in charged in Miami County Court with Miami County Court with Miami County Court with five counts, five counts, five counts, including murder, including murder, including murder, two counts of aggravated two counts of aggravated two counts of aggravated assault, two counts of assault, two counts of tampering with tampering with evidence, and evidence, and evidence, and Caleb's bail was set at Caleb's bail was set at Caleb's bail was set at $2 million. $2 million. Good. So, you know , in March he , in March he , in March he declares his declares his declares his innocence. innocence. The trial begins in September. Shocking. And then it took the jury, like, took the jury, like, about 2 hours to about 2 hours to about 2 hours to deliberate and reach a deliberate and reach a deliberate and reach a conclusion. conclusion. conclusion. Yes. It's just a Yes. It's just a Yes. It's just a race. race. race. Oh my God. Again Oh my God. Again Oh my God. Again , going back to , going back to , going back to the defense, you know, he the defense, you know, he the defense, you know, he claims not claims not claims not guilty. Um, terrible guilty. Um, terrible guilty. Um, terrible person, terrible person, terrible person, terrible husband, all that. No husband, all that. No husband, all that. No murder weapon, murder weapon, murder weapon, nothing to nothing to nothing to link him to link him to link him to this. Um, and you know, this. Um, and you know, this. Um, and you know, poor-quality examination, poor-quality examination, poor-quality examination, meaning it's impossible meaning it's impossible meaning it's impossible to prove that he to prove that he to prove that he shot, because they shot, because they shot, because they never took the blood never took the blood never took the blood from his hands. So, that from his hands. So, that from his hands. So, that definitely plays into the definitely plays into the definitely plays into the defense's hands, defense's hands, defense's hands, right? Also, right? Also, right? Also, they would have to remove the they would have to remove the they would have to remove the clothes he was wearing clothes he was wearing clothes he was wearing that day and all the clothes that day and all the clothes that day and all the clothes in his bedroom in the in his bedroom in the in his bedroom in the house, anything he house, anything he house, anything he could change into, could change into, could change into, change clothes, change clothes, change clothes, right? Check to see if right? Check to see if right? Check to see if he took a shower, he took a shower, he took a shower, right? There was no blood on it right? There was no blood on it right? There was no blood on it , right?

, right? , right? Oh, exactly. There Oh, exactly. There Oh, exactly. There wasn't a single drop of wasn't a single drop of wasn't a single drop of blood on it. blood on it. blood on it. Yes. Yes. Yes. How are you? How are you? How are you? Yes. As you Yes. As you Yes. As you and I see, we have already and I see, we have already and I see, we have already discussed this discussed this discussed this before in other before in other before in other matters. I always matters. I always matters. I always say this on this say this on this say this on this program, but when you program, but when you program, but when you see, usually, I see, usually, I see, usually, I think, the normal think, the normal think, the normal reaction, when you reaction, when you reaction, when you see a loved one see a loved one see a loved one who is bloody, who is bloody, who is bloody, injured, you grab injured, you grab injured, you grab that person, hug them. that person, hug them. that person, hug them. You will try You will try You will try to see how to see how to see how to help. to help. to help. You wouldn't look You wouldn't look You wouldn't look at the person you love and at the person you love and at the person you love and care about and care about and care about and just walk out of the just walk out of the just walk out of the room. you will do it. You room. you will do it. You room. you will do it. You will make sure you will make sure you will make sure you touch her and touch her and touch her and try to see if there is try to see if there is try to see if there is anything you can do to anything you can do to anything you can do to help save help save help save her life. her life. her life. He said he He said he He said he touched her leg or touched her leg or touched her leg or something. something. something. He shook her leg He shook her leg He shook her leg and said, “Ashley, Ashley, and said, “Ashley, Ashley, and said, “Ashley, Ashley, you, are you okay?” “ you, are you okay?” “ Right. Yes. Although I Right. Yes. Although I Right. Yes. Although I see two, I see two see two, I see two see two, I see two gunshot gunshot gunshot wounds to the head, wounds to the head, wounds to the head, but are you okay?" but are you okay?" but are you okay?" Right. That is, Right. That is, Right. That is, incredible. incredible. Incredible. Incredible. Incredible. Good. What Incredible. Good. What Incredible. Good. What else worries you about this else worries you about this else worries you about this matter? matter? matter? Well, I...Let's Well, I...Let's Well, I...Let's talk about talk about talk about interrogations. interrogations. interrogations. Good. a little. So, um, Good. a little. So, um, Good. a little. So, um, I mentioned to you that I...

I mentioned to you that I... I have a lot of problems I have a lot of problems , as I understand it, and we , as I understand it, and we , as I understand it, and we both have, with the evidence that both have, with the evidence that both have, with the evidence that they haven't processed, the they haven't processed, the they haven't processed, the potential potential potential evidence, the evidence, the evidence, the expertise. expertise. Um, but the interrogation, the first one, Um, but the interrogation, the first one, they're conducting it they're conducting it they're conducting it using Beeler's approach. And using Beeler's approach. And using Beeler's approach. And Beeler's approach is Beeler's approach is Beeler's approach is when you don't when you don't when you don't necessarily necessarily necessarily consider a person a consider a person a consider a person a suspect. She suspect. She suspect. She may or may not may or may not may or may not be like that. And you be like that. And you be like that. And you read her read her read her the warning. In this the warning. In this the warning. In this case, they didn't case, they didn't case, they didn't read it to him. read it to him. read it to him. They essentially They essentially They essentially reproduced it reproduced it reproduced it verbatim from memory. verbatim from memory. verbatim from memory. But he said, "Hey, I But he said, "Hey, I But he said, "Hey, I want you to know, you're want you to know, you're want you to know, you're not in custody. That's how it not in custody. That's how it not in custody. That's how it starts first. You're starts first. You're starts first. You're sitting right here, and here's the sitting right here, and here's the sitting right here, and here's the exit. The door's right exit. The door's right exit. The door's right there. Exit on the right. there. Exit on the right. there. Exit on the right. You can go." He, and You can go." He, and You can go." He, and then the detective then the detective then the detective even gets up and even gets up and even gets up and says, "Hey, I want to says, "Hey, I want to says, "Hey, I want to open the door." I open the door." I open the door." I want to make sure want to make sure want to make sure you see where you you see where you you see where you can get out. You can can get out. You can can get out. You can leave at any time." leave at any time." leave at any time." Trying Trying Trying to emphasize that to emphasize that to emphasize that he's he's he's not a suspect at that point. not a suspect at that point. not a suspect at that point. Right? So I don't Right? So I don't Right? So I don't need to read need to read need to read you the Miranda rights, do I you the Miranda rights, do I you the Miranda rights, do I ? I'm really ? I'm really ? I'm really confused about when confused about when confused about when exactly he became exactly he became exactly he became a suspect. I a suspect. I a suspect. I wish they had wish they had wish they had read him his read him his read him his rights at that point. And rights at that point. And rights at that point. And look, now, look, now, look, now, looking back, it looking back, it looking back, it turned out to be a no-brainer turned out to be a no-brainer . I don't know if that was . I don't know if that was . I don't know if that was violated because of the violated because of the violated because of the motion during the motion during the motion during the trial. But trial. But trial. But even when they even when they even when they brought him in for a second brought him in for a second brought him in for a second interview, they interview, they interview, they still didn't read him his still didn't read him his still didn't read him his rights. You're playing with rights. You're playing with rights. You're playing with fire when you don't fire when you don't fire when you don't read him the read him the read him the Miranda rights. You should have Miranda rights. You should have Miranda rights. You should have . And you . And you know, during the know, during the first interview, I first interview, I first interview, I watch his watch his watch his body movements, and I think body movements, and I think , despite everything, the , despite everything, the , despite everything, the interview and the interview and the interview and the Miranda questions, the detective Miranda questions, the detective Miranda questions, the detective did a really good

did a really good did a really good job, right? And job, right? And job, right? And a lot of people might a lot of people might a lot of people might think, "Well, think, "Well, think, "Well, look, he's so look, he's so look, he's so nice to him, he's nice to him, he's nice to him, he's polite and offers, polite and offers, polite and offers, he, you know, he, you know, he, you know, communicates like a communicates like a communicates like a friend, "making it friend, "making it friend, "making it seem like he seem like he seem like he wanted Caleb wanted Caleb wanted Caleb to believe that they were to believe that they were to believe that they were together and we would find the together and we would find the together and we would find the truth. Absolutely. truth. Absolutely. truth. Absolutely. Which is perfectly normal. Which is perfectly normal. Which is perfectly normal. Not everyone. There's a Not everyone. There's a Not everyone. There's a good cop, bad good cop, bad good cop, bad cop strategy, right? cop strategy, right? cop strategy, right? Absolutely. You Absolutely. You Absolutely. You get a lot get a lot get a lot more. And in this more. And in this more. And in this case, it worked for him case, it worked for him case, it worked for him . So in the . So in the . So in the second interview, second interview, second interview, the detective finally the detective finally the detective finally challenges him and challenges him and challenges him and questions questions questions the fact that it the fact that it the fact that it took him 2 to 5 took him 2 to 5 took him 2 to 5 minutes to run from the minutes to run from the minutes to run from the nursery to his nursery to his nursery to his wife, because Caleb wife, because Caleb wife, because Caleb said he said he said he didn't go there at first because he was didn't go there at first because he was didn't go there at first because he was terrified. He hears terrified. He hears terrified. He hears two gunshots and he's two gunshots and he's two gunshots and he's terrified. He doesn't want to terrified. He doesn't want to terrified. He doesn't want to go, but the detective go, but the detective go, but the detective starts pressuring starts pressuring starts pressuring him, and to me it him, and to me it him, and to me it sounds like an sounds like an sounds like an accusation. Well, accusation. Well, accusation. Well, why would you do that why would you do that ? And he answers, and at ? And he answers, and at ? And he answers, and at that point, for the first time in that point, for the first time in that point, for the first time in both interviews, if both interviews, if both interviews, if you show that part, you show that part, you show that part, you'll see Caleb you'll see Caleb you'll see Caleb lean back in his chair for the first time lean back in his chair for the first time lean back in his chair for the first time and and and do this with his hands.

do this with his hands. He doesn't has been doing this He doesn't has been doing this throughout the throughout the throughout the interview up until this interview up until this interview up until this point. It means point. It means point. It means that if you're reading that if you're reading that if you're reading body language, you're body language, you're body language, you're getting defensive, you're getting defensive, you're getting defensive, you're putting a barrier between putting a barrier between putting a barrier between yourself and the interviewer yourself and the interviewer because you don't because you don't because you don't like what they're like what they're like what they're asking you and you asking you and you asking you and you want to get out want to get out want to get out of the room immediately. That's what of the room immediately. That's what of the room immediately. That's what it's indicating. Um, so he it's indicating. Um, so he it's indicating. Um, so he did it twice did it twice did it twice after he after he after he was was was accused. But accused. But accused. But even at this point, even at this point, even at this point, he's saying, "I he's saying, "I he's saying, "I think you guys think you guys think you guys are trying to pin are trying to pin are trying to pin this on me." Something this on me." Something this on me." Something like this. "He's like this. "He's like this. "He's getting very defensive. getting very defensive. getting very defensive. You're looking at me You're looking at me You're looking at me as a suspect. Yeah as a suspect. Yeah , you better believe that's what it , you better believe that's what it , you better believe that's what it was. And that's what was. And that's what was. And that's what they they they did, to me. Again, did, to me. Again, did, to me. Again, no no no Miranda rights. So I don't know Miranda rights. So I don't know how they got around that. how they got around that. how they got around that. They did it. Um, They did it. Um, They did it. Um, but other than those issues but other than those issues , I think it was... , I think it was... , I think it was... they did a great they did a great they did a great job with the interview, did job with the interview, did job with the interview, did n't they? Because n't they? Because n't they? Because they had him they had him they had him essentially destroy himself in his essentially destroy himself in his essentially destroy himself in his own own own words, which is the goal of words, which is the goal of words, which is the goal of any interview— any interview— get to the truth. get to the truth. get to the truth. Yeah. And I think there Yeah. And I think there Yeah. And I think there 's also a discrepancy 's also a discrepancy 's also a discrepancy as to where exactly he as to where exactly he as to where exactly he was, because he tells was, because he tells was, because he tells 911 he was in the 911 he was in the 911 he was in the girls' room, but it girls' room, but it girls' room, but it seems like he could have seems like he could have seems like he could have told his told his told his girlfriend he was on the girlfriend he was on the girlfriend he was on the couch. So...Where exactly couch. So...Where exactly couch. So...Where exactly were you when you heard were you when you heard were you when you heard those shots?

those shots? Yeah. Yeah. And that's what Yeah. Yeah. And that's what we talked about earlier we talked about earlier , because he's very , because he's very , because he's very specific." I want to specific." I want to specific." I want to go lay down with go lay down with go lay down with the girls for a bit," the girls for a bit," the girls for a bit," to justify why to justify why to justify why he wasn't in he wasn't in he wasn't in the room. Yes. Earlier, the room. Yes. Earlier, the room. Yes. Earlier, he said he was coughing in he said he was coughing in he said he was coughing in bed and his wife bed and his wife bed and his wife Ashley asked him, " Ashley asked him, " Ashley asked him, " Hey, could you Hey, could you Hey, could you come out of the room?" I'm come out of the room?" I'm come out of the room?" I'm trying to... I can't trying to... I can't trying to... I can't sleep when you're sleep when you're sleep when you're coughing." So he coughing." So he coughing." So he leaves. Of course, leaves. Of course, leaves. Of course, it probably it probably it probably never happened, but never happened, but never happened, but he leaves because he's he leaves because he's he leaves because he's planning his... his planning his... his planning his... his plan worked, plan worked, plan worked, right? He planned it right? He planned it right? He planned it and now he's following through with and now he's following through with and now he's following through with his plan. And his plan. And his plan. And part of that part of that part of that involved him involved him involved him going to sit with going to sit with going to sit with his kids, his kids, his kids, lay with them and lay with them and lay with them and pray over them, pray over them, pray over them, like he said, right? like he said, right? like he said, right? Again, to Again, to Again, to portray himself as the portray himself as the portray himself as the perfect father. Um perfect father. Um , and use them as an , and use them as an , and use them as an alibi, because when the alibi, because when the alibi, because when the shots rang out, shots rang out, shots rang out, he was with his he was with his he was with his kids. kids. And I don't know... And I don't know... I don't know if it I don't know if it I don't know if it ever came out ever came out whether his whether his whether his kids heard the shots or not. kids heard the shots or not. kids heard the shots or not. I don't... they were supposedly I don't... they were supposedly I don't... they were supposedly still asleep when still asleep when still asleep when the police arrived, the police arrived, the police arrived, because he's telling because he's telling because he's telling his mother on his mother on his mother on the phone on the body the phone on the body camera. They camera. They camera. They don't even know, they're still don't even know, they're still don't even know, they're still in the room, sleeping. So in the room, sleeping. So in the room, sleeping. So I... I mean, I... I mean, I... I mean, these two slept through it all, these two slept through it all, these two slept through it all, according to him.

according to him. according to him. I think the bottom bunk I think the bottom bunk I think the bottom bunk was was was full of stuffed animals full of stuffed animals full of stuffed animals or something. They or something. They or something. They were trying to figure out were trying to figure out were trying to figure out where he was. If where he was. If where he was. If he was claiming that he he was claiming that he he was claiming that he was in their was in their was in their room and maybe in room and maybe in room and maybe in bed with them or bed with them or bed with them or sitting there or sitting there or sitting there or something. It's like, where something. It's like, where something. It's like, where were you? Because this is a picture of were you? Because this is a picture of were you? Because this is a picture of the room, and it looks like the room, and it looks like the room, and it looks like there was no room for there was no room for there was no room for you. So where you. So where you. So where were you? It's just all these were you? It's just all these were you? It's just all these little things that came out little things that came out little things that came out . . . They add They add They add up. They up. They up. They absolutely absolutely absolutely add up and add up and add up and point in a point in a point in a specific direction. specific direction. specific direction. But yeah, well But yeah, well , again, , again, he was found guilty he was found guilty he was found guilty on all counts. There's on all counts. There's on all counts. There's also something about Ashley, the also something about Ashley, the also something about Ashley, the wife, you know, about how much wife, you know, about how much wife, you know, about how much she she she knew or didn't know. And knew or didn't know. And knew or didn't know. And it could have been some it could have been some it could have been some private conversations between private conversations between private conversations between Ashley and Caleb, and Ashley and Caleb, and Ashley and Caleb, and why Caleb knew that the why Caleb knew that the why Caleb knew that the divorce might divorce might divorce might not go according to his not go according to his not go according to his script, because Ashley script, because Ashley script, because Ashley saw through it. saw through it. saw through it. Ashley had, it's very Ashley had, it's very Ashley had, it's very interesting, The wife interesting, The wife interesting, The wife had a picture of her had a picture of her had a picture of her and her husband Caleb on her phone and her husband Caleb on her phone , right? , right?

But Caleb's face But Caleb's face was was was crossed out. crossed out. So I think we know that Ashley that Ashley that Ashley was thinking about him. was thinking about him. was thinking about him. Yeah. And she probably Yeah. And she probably Yeah. And she probably said, "Well, go said, "Well, go said, "Well, go ahead. You're leaving because I'm ahead. You're leaving because I'm ahead. You're leaving because I'm not going to make it not going to make it not going to make it easy for you easy for you easy for you , buddy." And I , buddy." And I , buddy." And I guess this guess this guess this spineless man spineless man realized, "Okay, I'm realized, "Okay, I'm going to lose my young going to lose my young going to lose my young girlfriend. My wife is girlfriend. My wife is girlfriend. My wife is mad at me. I mad at me. I mad at me. I have to fix this." And have to fix this." And have to fix this." And that was the stupidest, that was the stupidest, that was the stupidest, stupidest thing stupidest thing stupidest thing anyone could do. It's anyone could do. It's anyone could do. It's not solving not solving not solving the problem. the problem. the problem. Yeah, I agree with you, Yeah, I agree with you, Yeah, I agree with you, Anna. But, you know, no Anna. But, you know, no Anna. But, you know, no one ever one ever one ever came forward and said they had came forward and said they had came forward and said they had those conversations with those conversations with those conversations with Ashley. She didn't Ashley. She didn't Ashley. She didn't trust anyone, she didn't trust anyone, she didn't trust anyone, she didn't pour her heart out to anyone to pour her heart out to anyone to pour her heart out to anyone to say, this is what's say, this is what's say, this is what's going on in my going on in my going on in my life. This is what he's life. This is what he's life. This is what he's doing, and of course, doing, and of course, doing, and of course, if he didn't file if he didn't file if he didn't file for divorce, for divorce, for divorce, maybe she did maybe she did maybe she did go to a lawyer. go to a lawyer. go to a lawyer. consultation. Who consultation. Who consultation. Who knows? knows? knows? We don't... Yeah, it was, We don't... Yeah, it was, We don't... Yeah, it was, I think, quite I think, quite I think, quite private, and maybe private, and maybe private, and maybe she didn't think it was she didn't think it was she didn't think it was serious. Who knows? serious. Who knows? serious. Who knows? You know, You know, You know, the cross is quite the cross is quite the cross is quite telling, isn't telling, isn't telling, isn't it? it? it? Oh, that cross on the Oh, that cross on the Oh, that cross on the face. Oh, please face. Oh, please . Oh, she put a . Oh, she put a . Oh, she put a cross on it, Miss Ashley.

cross on it, Miss Ashley. cross on it, Miss Ashley. Now, Now, Now, Caleb's sentencing Caleb's sentencing Caleb's sentencing is set for is set for is set for October 5th. He'll probably October 5th. He'll probably October 5th. He'll probably get life in get life in get life in prison without parole prison without parole . We're keeping our . We're keeping our fingers crossed. Absolutely. And fingers crossed. Absolutely. And fingers crossed. Absolutely. And here's something else that's really here's something else that's really here's something else that's really interesting, because there's interesting, because there's interesting, because there's a lot going on here a lot going on here a lot going on here . . . Caleb's mother, right? Caleb's mother, right? Caleb's mother, right? According to the Daily Mail, when the According to the Daily Mail, when the According to the Daily Mail, when the sentencing was announced and sentencing was announced and sentencing was announced and she went outside she went outside she went outside to talk to to talk to to talk to reporters, she reporters, she reporters, she blamed the media. She blamed the media. She blamed the media. She told reporters told reporters told reporters that he couldn't that he couldn't that he couldn't stand up to the stand up to the media's propaganda and lies about this case. Was she, you know, in the other she, you know, in the other courtroom? courtroom? She, you know, that's her She, you know, that's her son. I... her vision son. I... her vision son. I... her vision is clouded. You know, is clouded. You know, is clouded. You know, her vision her vision her vision twisted and vague. twisted and vague. twisted and vague. And he was, like, the And he was, like, the And he was, like, the best man in best man in best man in town, if not the town, if not the town, if not the world. I, you know, I... world. I, you know, I... world. I, you know, I... Yeah, I, I get it. I Yeah, I, I get it. I Yeah, I, I get it. I totally get it. Yeah. And totally get it. Yeah. And totally get it. Yeah. And her grandchildren. Yeah. Well, no. I her grandchildren. Yeah. Well, no. I ... ... ... I get it. She's I get it. She's I get it. She's probably... she's going to be in probably... she's going to be in probably... she's going to be in shock and denial for the rest of her shock and denial for the rest of her shock and denial for the rest of her life, life, right? Most likely.

right? Most likely. TMZ reports that the TMZ reports that the TMZ reports that the girls' lawyer girls' lawyer girls' lawyer has filed a has filed a has filed a restraining order restraining order restraining order to prevent Caleb from to prevent Caleb from to prevent Caleb from selling assets like the selling assets like the selling assets like the family home family home family home or anything. or anything. or anything. The girls' guardian wants to The girls' guardian wants to The girls' guardian wants to make sure they make sure they make sure they get the proceeds from get the proceeds from get the proceeds from their their their mother's estate. mother's estate. Okay. And that the money Okay. And that the money doesn't go to doesn't go to doesn't go to the husband, like it sometimes the husband, like it sometimes the husband, like it sometimes does. It does. It does. It goes to the husband and goes to the husband and goes to the husband and then eventually to the then eventually to the then eventually to the children when, say, the children when, say, the children when, say, the husband dies. So husband dies. So husband dies. So they want to make they want to make they want to make sure that all of this is sure that all of this is sure that all of this is protected for protected for protected for the girls. I the girls. I the girls. I totally agree. Why totally agree. Why totally agree. Why should he benefit from this should he benefit from this should he benefit from this ? ? ? Right. Right. Well, Right. Right. Well, Right. Right. Well, the business he was the business he was the business he was hoping for hoping for hoping for inherit, probably, will inherit, probably, will inherit, probably, will now go straight to now go straight to now go straight to those girls. He'll those girls. He'll those girls. He'll never never never touch him. That, that touch him. That, that touch him. That, that can be changed. That's can be changed. That's can be changed. That's probably already been done, probably already been done, probably already been done, I'm sure. I'm sure. I'm sure. Right. Right. And for Right. Right. And for Right. Right. And for those of you who are those of you who are those of you who are wondering, where are wondering, where are wondering, where are the girls? They're being raised by the girls? They're being raised by the girls? They're being raised by Ashley's sister and her Ashley's sister and her Ashley's sister and her mother's family. That's where mother's family. That's where mother's family. That's where they are. We also see they are. We also see they are. We also see in cases like this, which is in cases like this, which is in cases like this, which is really tragic, really tragic, where the family of a where the family of a where the family of a convicted murderer in a convicted murderer in a convicted murderer in a family crime like this family crime like this family crime like this also loses also loses also loses grandchildren for a lot of grandchildren for a lot of grandchildren for a lot of reasons, because the reasons, because the reasons, because the surviving family says, "We don't surviving family says, "We don't surviving family says, "We don't trust this family trust this family ." I mean, ." I mean, ." I mean, sometimes they deal with sometimes they deal with sometimes they deal with it. I don't know, but it. I don't know, but it. I don't know, but everybody's been hurt. Everybody's everybody's been hurt. Everybody's everybody's been hurt. Everybody's been hurt, and been hurt, and been hurt, and now these girls now these girls now these girls have lost that side of the have lost that side of the have lost that side of the family as well. I understand, it's, family as well. I understand, it's, family as well. I understand, it's, it's so difficult. It's so

it's so difficult. It's so it's so difficult. It's so difficult and so terrible difficult and so terrible . And just one last thing . And just one last thing . And just one last thing I'll say about Ashley. I'll say about Ashley. I'll say about Ashley. First of all, she's a First of all, she's a First of all, she's a real victim, just like real victim, just like real victim, just like those girls. She those girls. She those girls. She was killed a week was killed a week was killed a week before her 38th birthday. She before her 38th birthday. She before her 38th birthday. She was so young. was so young. was so young. So young. So young. So young. Yeah. I, I'll just add Yeah. I, I'll just add Yeah. I, I'll just add about Ashley. I think about Ashley. I think about Ashley. I think Caleb realized early on, Caleb realized early on, Caleb realized early on, especially towards especially towards especially towards the end, that the end, that the end, that she was the she was the she was the person he person he person he always wanted to be. always wanted to be. always wanted to be. She was an amazing She was an amazing She was an amazing person, and he could never person, and he could never match the match the lifestyle that lifestyle that lifestyle that she led, the character that she had, the way she led, the character that she had, the way people perceived her. people perceived her. He just He just He just wasn't even close wasn't even close wasn't even close , and that must have been , and that must have been , and that must have been a little annoying to him a little annoying to him a little annoying to him on top of everything on top of everything on top of everything else. else. else. Yeah, she was like Yeah, she was like Yeah, she was like a trophy. It's time for our a trophy. It's time for our commentary section. These are the commentary section. These are the criminal cases criminal cases criminal cases that you're all that you're all that you're all talking about on talking about on talking about on social media. And social media. And social media. And here's our producer, here's our producer, here's our producer, Will Updike. Hi, Will Updike. Hi, Will Updike. Hi, Will. Will. Will. Hi, how are you? Hi, how are you? Hi, how are you? Good. Good. Good. Hi, Will. Good to Hi, Will. Good to Hi, Will. Good to see you. Good to see you. Good to see you too, Louis. Uh, see you too, Louis. Uh, this week, uh, we this week, uh, we this week, uh, we have a case where have a case where have a case where the public the public the public crowns a new crowns a new crowns a new chubby champion. Uh, chubby champion. Uh, chubby champion. Uh, this story is from this story is from Katmai National Park in Alaska, where Katmai National Park in Alaska, where Bear 89, Bear 89, Bear 89, popularly known as popularly known as popularly known as Backpack, has been named Backpack, has been named this year's "Fat Bear of the Week." Er , if you don't know , if you don't know what I'm talking about, a fat what I'm talking about, a fat what I'm talking about, a fat bear...

bear... bear... I didn't even know there was such a thing I didn't even know there was such a thing I didn't even know there was such a thing . . . Well, you're about to hear about it Well, you're about to hear about it Well, you're about to hear about it . Er, . Er, . Er, Fat Bear Week Fat Bear Week is an annual contest is an annual contest is an annual contest started by started by Katmai National Park to Katmai National Park to celebrate the efforts of the celebrate the efforts of the celebrate the efforts of the bears in the park to bears in the park to bears in the park to gain weight, especially gain weight, especially gain weight, especially those who live and those who live and those who live and fish near fish near fish near Katmai's Brooks River. Katmai's Brooks River. Katmai's Brooks River. So, So, So, it's for hibernation. They... it's for hibernation. They... it's for hibernation. They... That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. So, if you're wondering So, if you're wondering So, if you're wondering if we should applaud the if we should applaud the bears' gluttony, the answer is yes. According to yes. According to yes. According to park biologists, gaining park biologists, gaining park biologists, gaining weight in the summer is weight in the summer is weight in the summer is essential for essential for essential for these these these furry giants to hibernate healthily. furry giants to hibernate healthily. During hibernation, During hibernation, bears, of course, can't bears, of course, can't bears, of course, can't eat or drink, and they eat or drink, and they eat or drink, and they typically lose typically lose typically lose about a third of about a third of about a third of their body weight. So their body weight. So their body weight. So weight gain is extremely weight gain is extremely weight gain is extremely important to their important to their important to their overall survival. overall survival. overall survival. So, uh, this So, uh, this So, uh, this weight gain usually weight gain usually weight gain usually peaks peaks peaks in late summer or in late summer or in late summer or early fall, and early fall, and early fall, and to gain those extra to gain those extra to gain those extra pounds, bears pounds, bears pounds, bears usually gorge themselves on usually gorge themselves on usually gorge themselves on salmon that salmon that salmon that are found in the are found in the are found in the Brooks River. Uh, so this Brooks River. Uh, so this Brooks River. Uh, so this contest to support contest to support weight-gaining bears weight-gaining bears started back in 2015 started back in 2015 started back in 2015 with a tournament that with a tournament that with a tournament that runs from September 22nd to the 29th every year runs from September 22nd to the 29th every year runs from September 22nd to the 29th every year .

. . The public The public The public votes for their votes for their votes for their favorite bears in a single- favorite bears in a single- elimination competition where only one only one bear can emerge victorious. So this bear can emerge victorious. So this bear can emerge victorious. So this year, bear 89, year, bear 89, year, bear 89, Backpack, uh, won the Backpack, uh, won the Backpack, uh, won the closely contested closely contested closely contested championship round championship round . Over 2.3 million . Over 2.3 million . Over 2.3 million people voted people voted people voted in this year's in this year's in this year's contest. Backpack contest. Backpack contest. Backpack won that won that won that final round final round final round by just 5,000 by just 5,000 by just 5,000 votes over bear votes over bear votes over bear 910, uh, who is 910, uh, who is 910, uh, who is a female bear, and uh, a female bear, and uh, a female bear, and uh, bear 89 bear 89 narrowly won here. narrowly won here. Although this fight was Although this fight was very fierce, as I very fierce, as I very fierce, as I said, it's said, it's said, it's actually the actually the actually the opposite of opposite of opposite of Bekpek's character. Bekpek's character. Park staff Park staff claim that he's claim that he's claim that he's one of the least one of the least one of the least aggressive bears aggressive bears aggressive bears with other males. with other males. with other males. Instead, he Instead, he Instead, he prefers prefers prefers to use his to use his to use his quiet size to quiet size to quiet size to just take the just take the just take the best best best fishing spots. A fishing spots. A fishing spots. A gentle giant. gentle giant. gentle giant. Exactly. Exactly. Because Exactly. Exactly. Because Exactly. Exactly. Because that's what really matters. that's what really matters. that's what really matters. You need those You need those You need those best spots to best spots to best spots to put on all that weight. put on all that weight. put on all that weight. You know, some males are You know, some males are You know, some males are obviously very obviously very obviously very territorial. He's territorial. He's territorial. He's not really one of not really one of not really one of them. them. them. So, is there a So, is there a crime here, Will? A crime here, Will? A crime. There's no crime. There's no crime. There's no crime here. It's crime here. It's crime here. It's just something interesting.

just something interesting. just something interesting. Stealing bread. Well, I've Stealing bread. Well, I've Stealing bread. Well, I've been telling everyone that these are the been telling everyone that these are the been telling everyone that these are the crime stories that crime stories that crime stories that everyone talks about. everyone talks about. everyone talks about. I just I just I just got carried away by this, because this got carried away by this, because this got carried away by this, because this bear has a bear has a bear has a history. He has a history. He has a history. He has a history history history with the park. with the park. with the park. Um, Um, Um, these comments have these comments have these comments have gotten out of hand. gotten out of hand. . Will. . Will. . Will. This is a true story This is a true story This is a true story of an underdog, Anna. of an underdog, Anna. of an underdog, Anna. These are important things. These are important things. These are important things. I'm not complaining. I'm I'm not complaining. I'm I'm not complaining. I'm just... just... just... He stole He stole He stole picnic baskets. picnic baskets. picnic baskets. That's right. And you know what? That's right. And you know what? That's right. And you know what? We should applaud We should applaud We should applaud him. But Backpack him. But Backpack him. But Backpack was born in the park 20 was born in the park 20 was born in the park 20 years ago, and he years ago, and he years ago, and he got his got his got his nickname because he was nickname because he was nickname because he was always hanging on always hanging on always hanging on his mother's back his mother's back his mother's back like a little backpack. like a little backpack. He's a sweet little guy. He comes He comes from a champion from a champion from a champion family, by the way. His mother family, by the way. His mother won won Fat Bear Week in Fat Bear Week in Fat Bear Week in 2019. 2019. 2019. Thanks, Will. Thanks, Will. Thanks, Will. And Backpack's incredible success And Backpack's incredible success And Backpack's incredible success is a true is a true is a true tale of tale of tale of perseverance. When perseverance. When perseverance. When he was a he was a he was a cub, he suffered a cub, he suffered a cub, he suffered a serious leg injury. serious leg injury. serious leg injury. Park staff couldn't Park staff couldn't Park staff couldn't determine from the determine from the determine from the cameras what cameras what cameras what caused it, but they caused it, but they caused it, but they saw that young saw that young saw that young Backpack couldn't Backpack couldn't Backpack couldn't stand on one stand on one stand on one paw, and it was completely paw, and it was completely paw, and it was completely unclear if unclear if unclear if he would survive.

he would survive. he would survive. Luckily for Backpack, Luckily for Backpack, Luckily for Backpack, he spent a year he spent a year he spent a year recovering with his recovering with his recovering with his mother before he was able to mother before he was able to mother before he was able to to start a to start a to start a life of his own. Since then he life of his own. Since then he life of his own. Since then he has learned his own has learned his own has learned his own tricks. And this year tricks. And this year tricks. And this year from June to September from June to September from June to September he has gained so much he has gained so much he has gained so much weight. He looks like a weight. He looks like a weight. He looks like a completely different completely different completely different bear. Show me bear. Show me bear. Show me pictures of these pictures of these pictures of these bears. He bears. He bears. He looks like... Are looks like... Are looks like... Are you going to you going to you going to write a children's write a children's write a children's book? What is this all about book? What is this all about book? What is this all about ? Will. ? Will. ? Will. Sounds like a good Sounds like a good Sounds like a good children's book. Yes. children's book. Yes. children's book. Yes. And one more point about And one more point about And one more point about our Backpack. our Backpack. our Backpack. He has a favorite He has a favorite He has a favorite rock on the Brooks River rock on the Brooks River , which , which , which the park staff calls " the park staff calls " the park staff calls " Backpack Rock" or " Backpack Rock" or " Backpack Rock" or " Bear Rock 89". Bear Rock 89". Bear Rock 89". He likes to sit there He likes to sit there , look at the current and , look at the current and , look at the current and fish, avoiding the fish, avoiding the fish, avoiding the cold water. Some cold water. Some cold water. Some bears go bears go bears go right into the water. He right into the water. He right into the water. He likes to sit on likes to sit on likes to sit on the rock so he doesn't get into the the rock so he doesn't get into the the rock so he doesn't get into the cold water. So, cold water. So, cold water. So, anyway, anyway, anyway, congratulations Backpack. We congratulations Backpack. We congratulations Backpack. We love it. love it. love it. This column is This column is This column is a little shorter today. a little shorter today. a little shorter today. Look, I love Look, I love Look, I love this kind of thing. I'm a big this kind of thing. I'm a big this kind of thing. I'm a big fan of national fan of national fan of national parks. I don't know who doesn't parks. I don't know who doesn't parks. I don't know who doesn't . Bears are probably . Bears are probably my my my favorite animals. Uh favorite animals. Uh ... ... ... Oh my god. Have you seen this Oh my god. Have you seen this Oh my god. Have you seen this video? I just saw it video? I just saw it video? I just saw it posted. It posted. It posted. It was really funny.

was really funny. was really funny. A bear, probably the A bear, probably the A bear, probably the car door, probably the car door, probably the car door, probably the windows are open. windows are open. windows are open. Let's say someone Let's say someone Let's say someone makes a quick makes a quick makes a quick stop. She opens stop. She opens stop. She opens the door and her three or the door and her three or the door and her three or four cubs four cubs four cubs follow her into the car, follow her into the car, follow her into the car, she gets in the car she gets in the car she gets in the car and pulls out some kind of and pulls out some kind of Happy Meal or Happy Meal or Happy Meal or something. She gets out of the something. She gets out of the something. She gets out of the car with all her car with all her car with all her cubs, and it's all cubs, and it's all cubs, and it's all being filmed from being filmed from being filmed from another car another car another car literally, I don't know, literally, I don't know, literally, I don't know, 10 feet away. I 10 feet away. I 10 feet away. I just thought, Will just thought, Will , I'll send this to you. I'm sharing , I'll send this to you. I'm sharing , I'll send this to you. I'm sharing this with you, this with you, this with you, Will, now you know. Will, now you know. Will, now you know. No, you can. If No, you can. If No, you can. If you see any you see any you see any cool content about cool content about cool content about bears, be sure to bears, be sure to bears, be sure to send it to me. We send it to me. We send it to me. We did a did a did a story here once that was story here once that was story here once that was just wild: people just wild: people just wild: people were committing insurance were committing insurance were committing insurance fraud, they had fraud, they had fraud, they had fancy cars and they fancy cars and they fancy cars and they said that like a said that like a said that like a bear gutted them and bear gutted them and bear gutted them and broke everything. broke everything. I remember they had I remember they had fake metal fake metal fake metal claws to make it claws to make it claws to make it look like look like look like a bear did it, a bear did it, a bear did it, right? Yeah, I right? Yeah, I right? Yeah, I remember that. remember that. remember that. Yeah. So Yeah. So Yeah. So no crime this week. And no crime this week. And no crime this week. And you know what? If you know what? If you know what? If this isn't news to you, this isn't news to you, this isn't news to you, you're a real bore. you're a real bore. you're a real bore. Sorry. Yeah Sorry. Yeah Sorry. Yeah . Okay. Okay. That's . Okay. Okay. That's . Okay. Okay. That's right. right. right. Good story. Good Good story. Good Good story. Good ending. We could ending. We could ending. We could talk about the cute talk about the cute talk about the cute little raccoons that little raccoons that little raccoons that I watch I watch I watch sleeping in the dresser.

sleeping in the dresser. sleeping in the dresser. Yeah. Yeah Yeah. Yeah Yeah. Yeah . I mean, it's just . I mean, it's just ... I found it very ... I found it very ... I found it very inspiring. I inspiring. I inspiring. I love that love that love that he has so much he has so much he has so much knowledge about all this knowledge about all this knowledge about all this backstory. I backstory. I backstory. I love the work love the work love the work that they put into it that they put into it that they put into it . I . I . I love that they, love that they, love that they, you know, develop you know, develop you know, develop these kinds of stories and backgrounds these kinds of stories and backgrounds these kinds of stories and backgrounds and learn about their and learn about their and learn about their little personalities little personalities little personalities and stuff. Because it's interesting and stuff. Because it's interesting that, you know, even though that, you know, even though that, you know, even though they all do they all do they all do similar things, they have very similar things, they have very similar things, they have very different methods and different methods and different methods and approaches to it. It's approaches to it. It's approaches to it. It's very human to me very human to me , in a way , in a way , in a way that I think is that I think is that I think is very charming. very charming. very charming. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you and a lot of others Well, you and a lot of others , right? A few , right? A few , right? A few million people million people million people are watching all of this. are watching all of this. are watching all of this. So, yeah, it works. It So, yeah, it works. It So, yeah, it works. It works. It was works. It was works. It was positive attention. So positive attention. So , yeah, I agree with you , yeah, I agree with you , Will. , Will. , Will. And anything that promotes, And anything that promotes, And anything that promotes, you know, you know, you know, conservation in the conservation in the conservation in the national parks. national parks. national parks. Hey, I'm all for it. I do Hey, I'm all for it. I do Hey, I'm all for it. I do n't know anyone who n't know anyone who n't know anyone who hates hates hates national parks, national parks, national parks, but if you do, I'm but if you do, I'm but if you do, I'm sorry for this sorry for this sorry for this segment, I guess. segment, I guess. segment, I guess. Anyway, that's the Anyway, that's the Anyway, that's the end of the end of the end of the comments section for comments section for comments section for this week. Uh, until this week. Uh, until this week. Uh, until next week, next week, next week, you know, don't commit you know, don't commit you know, don't commit crimes and crimes and crimes and support the support the support the national parks and national parks and national parks and the bears. the bears. the bears. Lewis, it's always Lewis, it's always Lewis, it's always nice to see you on nice to see you on nice to see you on the air. I always the air. I always the air. I always feel like I feel like I feel like I need more time need more time need more time with you. There's with you. There's with you. There's always something to always something to always something to talk about, Anna. We'll talk about, Anna. We'll talk about, Anna. We'll make it.

make it. make it. We'll make it. We'll We'll make it. We'll We'll make it. We'll make it. Um, Lewis, make it. Um, Lewis, make it. Um, Lewis, where can people find where can people find where can people find you, subscribe to you, subscribe to you, subscribe to you, and all that stuff you, and all that stuff you, and all that stuff . . . Thanks, Anna. You can Thanks, Anna. You can Thanks, Anna. You can find me and all find me and all find me and all my social media my social media my social media at getbitinvestigations.com. And I'm at getbitinvestigations.com. And I'm Anna G News with an "n." And Anna G News with an "n." And Anna G News with an "n." And everything we do here everything we do here everything we do here at True Crime News is on my true at True Crime News is on my true at True Crime News is on my true crime news. It's pretty easy crime news. It's pretty easy crime news. It's pretty easy to find. You can to find. You can to find. You can find us on YouTube. You find us on YouTube. You find us on YouTube. You can find oh can find oh can find oh my god, I think I've my god, I think I've my god, I think I've done over 500 done over 500 done over 500 podcasts. podcasts. podcasts. Yeah, that's another one. Yeah, that's another one. Yeah, that's another one. It's hard to believe I have It's hard to believe I have It's hard to believe I have n't covered a n't covered a n't covered a case that you might be case that you might be case that you might be interested in yet. But interested in yet. But interested in yet. But still, I get still, I get still, I get referrals from referrals from referrals from all of you, and I appreciate it. all of you, and I appreciate it. all of you, and I appreciate it. Just like Just like Just like Lorenzo's friend Joey, who Lorenzo's friend Joey, who Lorenzo's friend Joey, who wanted me to wanted me to wanted me to follow up on this follow up on this follow up on this murder case. murder case. murder case. And you followed up. I And you followed up. I And you followed up. I followed up. Well done followed up. Well done followed up. Well done , Joey. , Joey. , Joey. Yeah. Well, we love Yeah. Well, we love Yeah. Well, we love our young fans. our young fans. our young fans. We really do. We really do. We really do. We appreciate it. Okay. We appreciate it. Okay. We appreciate it. Okay. Subscribe to our Subscribe to our Subscribe to our YouTube channel. Get YouTube channel. Get YouTube channel. Get our newsletter at true our newsletter at true our newsletter at true crimenews.com. Until crimenews.com. Until crimenews.com. Until next week, next week, next week, I've been with you, your I've been with you, your I've been with you, your host, Anna Garcia. host, Anna Garcia. host, Anna Garcia. This is True Crime News, the podcast. This is True Crime News, the podcast. This is True Crime News, the podcast. Crime never Crime never Crime never stops, and neither do stops, and neither do stops, and neither do we.