Mom and grandmother allegedly plotted to kill four kids in a custody dispute

A word of warning, this podcast explores A word of warning, this podcast explores graphic and disturbing stories and graphic and disturbing stories and graphic and disturbing stories and includes some strong language. It includes some strong language. It includes some strong language. It therefore may not be suitable for our therefore may not be suitable for our therefore may not be suitable for our young listeners or other folks who may young listeners or other folks who may young listeners or other folks who may find it disturbing. [music] find it disturbing. [music] find it disturbing. [music] Hello and welcome to True Crime News, Hello and welcome to True Crime News, Hello and welcome to True Crime News, the podcast covering high-profile and the podcast covering high-profile and the podcast covering high-profile and under the radar cases from across the under the radar cases from across the under the radar cases from across the country every week. I'm your host, Anna country every week. I'm your host, Anna country every week. I'm your host, Anna Garcia. And our case this week, four Garcia. And our case this week, four Garcia. And our case this week, four children, their mother, and their children, their mother, and their children, their mother, and their grandmother found dead inside their grandmother found dead inside their grandmother found dead inside their upstate New York home. Police believe upstate New York home. Police believe upstate New York home. Police believe that the mother and the grandmother that the mother and the grandmother that the mother and the grandmother killed the children killed the children killed the children to keep them from spending time with to keep them from spending time with to keep them from spending time with their father, whom they hadn't seen in their father, whom they hadn't seen in their father, whom they hadn't seen in six years because of a custody battle. six years because of a custody battle. six years because of a custody battle. And in a note left behind both from the And in a note left behind both from the And in a note left behind both from the mother and the grandmother, they justify mother and the grandmother, they justify mother and the grandmother, they justify killing the children to spare them the killing the children to spare them the killing the children to spare them the alleged abuse that they claimed alleged abuse that they claimed alleged abuse that they claimed their father was responsible for, which their father was responsible for, which their father was responsible for, which of course he denies. We are recording of course he denies. We are recording of course he denies. We are recording this on Thursday, August 13th of 2026.

this on Thursday, August 13th of 2026. this on Thursday, August 13th of 2026. Our guest today, we have a new guest Our guest today, we have a new guest Our guest today, we have a new guest today. It's very exciting. Imran Ansari. today. It's very exciting. Imran Ansari. today. It's very exciting. Imran Ansari. Imran, you are a former prosecutor. You Imran, you are a former prosecutor. You Imran, you are a former prosecutor. You work criminal and civil cases. You are a work criminal and civil cases. You are a work criminal and civil cases. You are a frequent legal analyst on CNN Court TV frequent legal analyst on CNN Court TV frequent legal analyst on CNN Court TV Fox. And here's the best part. He knew Fox. And here's the best part. He knew Fox. And here's the best part. He knew exactly where we were going today. exactly where we were going today. exactly where we were going today. You've been in this building so many You've been in this building so many You've been in this building so many times. You led me here to the studio and times. You led me here to the studio and times. You led me here to the studio and thank you for that. thank you for that. thank you for that. >> Oh yeah. No. And look what a great >> Oh yeah. No. And look what a great >> Oh yeah. No. And look what a great studio it is. Right. studio it is. Right. studio it is. Right. >> It is. It is. And for those of you who >> It is. It is. And for those of you who >> It is. It is. And for those of you who are listening, we are not um you know in are listening, we are not um you know in are listening, we are not um you know in the family room at home. Uh we are the family room at home. Uh we are the family room at home. Uh we are actually at Hudson Yards in Manhattan actually at Hudson Yards in Manhattan actually at Hudson Yards in Manhattan and we are in one of the Warner Brothers and we are in one of the Warner Brothers and we are in one of the Warner Brothers mini podcast studios. So, it's a very mini podcast studios. So, it's a very mini podcast studios. So, it's a very cool environment to be in. And let's get cool environment to be in. And let's get cool environment to be in. And let's get started with this case. Now, Immran, one started with this case. Now, Immran, one started with this case. Now, Immran, one of the reasons I wanted to to tackle of the reasons I wanted to to tackle of the reasons I wanted to to tackle this case is because we're all talking this case is because we're all talking this case is because we're all talking about the Lindsay Clansancy case right about the Lindsay Clansancy case right about the Lindsay Clansancy case right now. And here we have a situation where now. And here we have a situation where now. And here we have a situation where you have a mother and a grandmother who you have a mother and a grandmother who you have a mother and a grandmother who killed four babies for there. First of killed four babies for there. First of killed four babies for there. First of all, there are no reasons that could all, there are no reasons that could all, there are no reasons that could ever be acceptable. But to say that ever be acceptable. But to say that ever be acceptable. But to say that you're doing it to protect them is you're doing it to protect them is you're doing it to protect them is insane. No, absolutely. And you know, insane. No, absolutely. And you know, insane. No, absolutely. And you know, this this hitting the news now, right, this this hitting the news now, right, this this hitting the news now, right, with the Clancy trial underway, it shows with the Clancy trial underway, it shows with the Clancy trial underway, it shows how these cases really strike accord how these cases really strike accord how these cases really strike accord with the public, right? Because it's with the public, right? Because it's with the public, right? Because it's hard to fathom how a mother or a father hard to fathom how a mother or a father hard to fathom how a mother or a father can do this uh to their children. Here can do this uh to their children. Here can do this uh to their children. Here we have a mother, we have Clancy, you we have a mother, we have Clancy, you we have a mother, we have Clancy, you know, on trial uh also. Um but it's it's know, on trial uh also. Um but it's it's know, on trial uh also. Um but it's it's hard to fathom that. I think that's why hard to fathom that. I think that's why hard to fathom that. I think that's why the public is drawn to these tragic

the public is drawn to these tragic the public is drawn to these tragic tragic cases and we see four young lives tragic cases and we see four young lives tragic cases and we see four young lives lost uh allegedly to spare them from lost uh allegedly to spare them from lost uh allegedly to spare them from alleged abuse from the father. But you alleged abuse from the father. But you alleged abuse from the father. But you don't kill uh to spare from alleged don't kill uh to spare from alleged don't kill uh to spare from alleged abuse here, right? So it it's something abuse here, right? So it it's something abuse here, right? So it it's something that we're looking at. It's a real that we're looking at. It's a real that we're looking at. It's a real tragedy. And of course there's no legal tragedy. And of course there's no legal tragedy. And of course there's no legal case here uh because the mother and the case here uh because the mother and the case here uh because the mother and the grandmother committed suicide as Clancy grandmother committed suicide as Clancy grandmother committed suicide as Clancy tried to do. Uh but here they were tried to do. Uh but here they were tried to do. Uh but here they were successful and there's you know they're successful and there's you know they're successful and there's you know they're also gone right now. So we wait not have also gone right now. So we wait not have also gone right now. So we wait not have the ultimate answers to the many the ultimate answers to the many the ultimate answers to the many questions we have in this case. questions we have in this case. questions we have in this case. >> So we really can't get justice. Look >> So we really can't get justice. Look >> So we really can't get justice. Look there can never be full justice when the there can never be full justice when the there can never be full justice when the lives of of babies are taken from us. lives of of babies are taken from us. lives of of babies are taken from us. But in this case it's even more But in this case it's even more But in this case it's even more complicated because the two people who complicated because the two people who complicated because the two people who the police have identified as the the police have identified as the the police have identified as the killers and based on their own writings killers and based on their own writings killers and based on their own writings I believe them. I believe them. I believe them. So, what do you do with this? You know, So, what do you do with this? You know, So, what do you do with this? You know, the the DA says that um he's still the the DA says that um he's still the the DA says that um he's still investigating. The DA says maybe he's investigating. The DA says maybe he's investigating. The DA says maybe he's going to put together like a task force going to put together like a task force going to put together like a task force or a commission. Every time I hear those or a commission. Every time I hear those or a commission. Every time I hear those words, a task force, it's like, please, words, a task force, it's like, please, words, a task force, it's like, please, um what are we going to do? We're going um what are we going to do? We're going um what are we going to do? We're going to look at how the system failed. Yes, to look at how the system failed. Yes, to look at how the system failed. Yes, the system failed without question.

the system failed without question. the system failed without question. There were a lot of failures here, There were a lot of failures here, There were a lot of failures here, [gasps] but I don't know. reform. Are we [gasps] but I don't know. reform. Are we [gasps] but I don't know. reform. Are we really I just I don't mean to be so really I just I don't mean to be so really I just I don't mean to be so pessimistic about it, but I'm not very pessimistic about it, but I'm not very pessimistic about it, but I'm not very optimistic. optimistic. optimistic. >> Right. I mean, there's not much in terms >> Right. I mean, there's not much in terms >> Right. I mean, there's not much in terms of legal recourse here, right? We have of legal recourse here, right? We have of legal recourse here, right? We have the two uh alleged killers who are now the two uh alleged killers who are now the two uh alleged killers who are now dead themselves. You know, the father uh dead themselves. You know, the father uh dead themselves. You know, the father uh is facing allegations. You know, I don't is facing allegations. You know, I don't is facing allegations. You know, I don't know if there's going to be any know if there's going to be any know if there's going to be any investigation in that. Probably not. investigation in that. Probably not. investigation in that. Probably not. He's he's mourning the death uh of his He's he's mourning the death uh of his He's he's mourning the death uh of his four children, so that wouldn't be four children, so that wouldn't be four children, so that wouldn't be appropriate here. um in terms of looking appropriate here. um in terms of looking appropriate here. um in terms of looking how the system may have failed, there how the system may have failed, there how the system may have failed, there may be some internal review. I know that may be some internal review. I know that may be some internal review. I know that there were calls for wellness checks and there were calls for wellness checks and there were calls for wellness checks and all that, but based on the forensic all that, but based on the forensic all that, but based on the forensic evidence, even if they had executed evidence, even if they had executed evidence, even if they had executed certain wellness checks uh at the house, certain wellness checks uh at the house, certain wellness checks uh at the house, um it would have been too late um it would have been too late um it would have been too late regardless, right? So, um I don't know regardless, right? So, um I don't know regardless, right? So, um I don't know how there's going to be any legal how there's going to be any legal how there's going to be any legal recourse, but what we can see here is a recourse, but what we can see here is a recourse, but what we can see here is a tragedy um all around, right? Four lives tragedy um all around, right? Four lives tragedy um all around, right? Four lives lost, uh you know, six lives lost if you lost, uh you know, six lives lost if you lost, uh you know, six lives lost if you count uh the mother and the grandmother.

count uh the mother and the grandmother. count uh the mother and the grandmother. Uh and then a father now uh taking his Uh and then a father now uh taking his Uh and then a father now uh taking his kids not home for a long awaited kids not home for a long awaited kids not home for a long awaited visitation uh but to bury them. So it's visitation uh but to bury them. So it's visitation uh but to bury them. So it's a tragedy all around. a tragedy all around. a tragedy all around. >> The police chief said in Mechanicville, >> The police chief said in Mechanicville, >> The police chief said in Mechanicville, New York, he said they found files on New York, he said they found files on New York, he said they found files on the mother's computer and phone that the mother's computer and phone that the mother's computer and phone that allegedly contained photographs, allegedly contained photographs, allegedly contained photographs, documentation of alleged abuse. But the documentation of alleged abuse. But the documentation of alleged abuse. But the chief also said, "We can't verify these chief also said, "We can't verify these chief also said, "We can't verify these claims. So there's really nowhere else claims. So there's really nowhere else claims. So there's really nowhere else we can go with this case." And once we can go with this case." And once we can go with this case." And once again, father hasn't been charged here. again, father hasn't been charged here. again, father hasn't been charged here. Father denies these allegations. And Father denies these allegations. And Father denies these allegations. And it's very hard to to prove a negative. it's very hard to to prove a negative. it's very hard to to prove a negative. Right. Right. Right. >> Right. And and it's a moot point here, >> Right. And and it's a moot point here, >> Right. And and it's a moot point here, right? You know, you know, what's the right? You know, you know, what's the right? You know, you know, what's the purpose of that? Um and regardless purpose of that? Um and regardless purpose of that? Um and regardless regardless you know let's say a regardless you know let's say a regardless you know let's say a hypothetical scenario I'm not saying hypothetical scenario I'm not saying hypothetical scenario I'm not saying that that's the case here uh where there that that's the case here uh where there that that's the case here uh where there was a father who was going to regain was a father who was going to regain was a father who was going to regain custody or visitation of a child. I mean custody or visitation of a child. I mean custody or visitation of a child. I mean the extreme extreme act of taking a the extreme extreme act of taking a the extreme extreme act of taking a child's life like that uh for this child's life like that uh for this child's life like that uh for this somehow you know deranged notion that somehow you know deranged notion that somehow you know deranged notion that you're going to spare them from some you're going to spare them from some you're going to spare them from some sort of abuse. Um it just doesn't add sort of abuse. Um it just doesn't add sort of abuse. Um it just doesn't add up. I think that this was a deeprooted up. I think that this was a deeprooted up. I think that this was a deeprooted uh dispute between the father, the uh dispute between the father, the uh dispute between the father, the mother and then the grandmother involved mother and then the grandmother involved mother and then the grandmother involved and they took the most extreme measure and they took the most extreme measure and they took the most extreme measure uh you know a a complete debased measure uh you know a a complete debased measure uh you know a a complete debased measure uh in order to rob this father of the

uh in order to rob this father of the uh in order to rob this father of the ability of seeing and and having his ability of seeing and and having his ability of seeing and and having his children uh at his side. And I always children uh at his side. And I always children uh at his side. And I always find it amazing when someone is plotting find it amazing when someone is plotting find it amazing when someone is plotting something something as evil as this. something something as evil as this. something something as evil as this. There are so many opportunities to stop There are so many opportunities to stop There are so many opportunities to stop and say, "Oh my god, what are we doing and say, "Oh my god, what are we doing and say, "Oh my god, what are we doing here?" Yet we don't see any evidence of here?" Yet we don't see any evidence of here?" Yet we don't see any evidence of that. And that to me is always the most that. And that to me is always the most that. And that to me is always the most frightening because there are so many frightening because there are so many frightening because there are so many times you can just say stop. times you can just say stop. times you can just say stop. >> Certainly. And there has to be some >> Certainly. And there has to be some >> Certainly. And there has to be some level of you know mental illness to some level of you know mental illness to some level of you know mental illness to some extent here shared by the mother uh and extent here shared by the mother uh and extent here shared by the mother uh and the grandmother uh where you're looking the grandmother uh where you're looking the grandmother uh where you're looking at this as a viable and realistic plan at this as a viable and realistic plan at this as a viable and realistic plan of action and they planned it right. of action and they planned it right. of action and they planned it right. There was planning and premeditation There was planning and premeditation There was planning and premeditation before this heinous act was taken. And before this heinous act was taken. And before this heinous act was taken. And then we hear from the uh the medical then we hear from the uh the medical then we hear from the uh the medical reports or the the uh uh the forensic reports or the the uh uh the forensic reports or the the uh uh the forensic data coming from the autopsies or data coming from the autopsies or data coming from the autopsies or whatever investigation is going on after whatever investigation is going on after whatever investigation is going on after the fact that this was a painful death the fact that this was a painful death the fact that this was a painful death for at least some of these children. Uh for at least some of these children. Uh for at least some of these children. Uh it wasn't just a poison. Uh there was it wasn't just a poison. Uh there was it wasn't just a poison. Uh there was stabbing involved. So, you know, it's a stabbing involved. So, you know, it's a stabbing involved. So, you know, it's a real horrific uh set of facts. And you real horrific uh set of facts. And you real horrific uh set of facts. And you have a father now learning this uh and have a father now learning this uh and have a father now learning this uh and other family members, I would assume, uh other family members, I would assume, uh other family members, I would assume, uh and also the public. And it's a really and also the public. And it's a really and also the public. And it's a really bitter pill to swallow here. uh and bitter pill to swallow here. uh and bitter pill to swallow here. uh and really digest and I think that's why really digest and I think that's why really digest and I think that's why there's a fascination uh you know a there's a fascination uh you know a there's a fascination uh you know a fascination in in the sense that how can fascination in in the sense that how can fascination in in the sense that how can a mother do this to their children and a mother do this to their children and a mother do this to their children and we're seeing it play out right uh in the we're seeing it play out right uh in the we're seeing it play out right uh in the courtroom with Lindsay Clancy and the

courtroom with Lindsay Clancy and the courtroom with Lindsay Clancy and the defense being uh put forth by her defense being uh put forth by her defense being uh put forth by her defense attorney and of course of course defense attorney and of course of course defense attorney and of course of course the prosecution say this was someone who the prosecution say this was someone who the prosecution say this was someone who was just done with motherhood and it was just done with motherhood and it was just done with motherhood and it wasn't postpartum depression etc. uh but wasn't postpartum depression etc. uh but wasn't postpartum depression etc. uh but you know you see in this case now what you know you see in this case now what you know you see in this case now what if the mother and the grandmother if the mother and the grandmother if the mother and the grandmother survived I think we would be seeing a survived I think we would be seeing a survived I think we would be seeing a legal uh you know course of action from legal uh you know course of action from legal uh you know course of action from prosecution to defense perhaps in a prosecution to defense perhaps in a prosecution to defense perhaps in a similar way uh what's going on in the similar way uh what's going on in the similar way uh what's going on in the Clansancy courtroom right now Clansancy courtroom right now Clansancy courtroom right now >> and I think what's happening in the >> and I think what's happening in the >> and I think what's happening in the Clansancy courtroom why she does have a Clansancy courtroom why she does have a Clansancy courtroom why she does have a lot of sympathy because every time I lot of sympathy because every time I lot of sympathy because every time I post something a girlfriend of mine will post something a girlfriend of mine will post something a girlfriend of mine will DM me um because we're all so DM me um because we're all so DM me um because we're all so heartbroken about this is when you read heartbroken about this is when you read heartbroken about this is when you read her my chart pri you know cries for help her my chart pri you know cries for help her my chart pri you know cries for help where it's in her own writing it's not where it's in her own writing it's not where it's in her own writing it's not just what someone said but it's her just what someone said but it's her just what someone said but it's her words telling the doctors it's not words telling the doctors it's not words telling the doctors it's not working it's not working I don't feel working it's not working I don't feel working it's not working I don't feel well I'm worried I'm scared and she well I'm worried I'm scared and she well I'm worried I'm scared and she tries to check herself into you know tries to check herself into you know tries to check herself into you know institutions to get the psychiatric institutions to get the psychiatric institutions to get the psychiatric support that she needs support that she needs support that she needs at least we see what we see there is at least we see what we see there is at least we see what we see there is someone trying so hard to wrestle with someone trying so hard to wrestle with someone trying so hard to wrestle with what I believe is her psychosis.

what I believe is her psychosis. what I believe is her psychosis. Where here, if we read the messages Where here, if we read the messages Where here, if we read the messages written by these two women radically written by these two women radically written by these two women radically different, it's about what kind of meds different, it's about what kind of meds different, it's about what kind of meds are going to work on the kids and what are going to work on the kids and what are going to work on the kids and what if it doesn't work and let's make sure if it doesn't work and let's make sure if it doesn't work and let's make sure it's not detectable. The conversations it's not detectable. The conversations it's not detectable. The conversations that are being had by these by these that are being had by these by these that are being had by these by these women, three women, if you will, women, three women, if you will, women, three women, if you will, all accused of killing their babies, are all accused of killing their babies, are all accused of killing their babies, are radically different. radically different. radically different. >> No, absolutely. And I think the motive >> No, absolutely. And I think the motive >> No, absolutely. And I think the motive here, there is a motive. here, there is a motive. here, there is a motive. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The mo whereas, >> The mo whereas, >> The mo whereas, you know, you know, it's hard to pin you know, you know, it's hard to pin you know, you know, it's hard to pin down a motive, especially if you're down a motive, especially if you're down a motive, especially if you're going to be accepting the defense theory going to be accepting the defense theory going to be accepting the defense theory uh of mental illness, right? Um but uh of mental illness, right? Um but uh of mental illness, right? Um but here, I think that there was such a here, I think that there was such a here, I think that there was such a deeprooted uh division between the deeprooted uh division between the deeprooted uh division between the mother and the father. Um and she was mother and the father. Um and she was mother and the father. Um and she was successful in keeping the father uh from successful in keeping the father uh from successful in keeping the father uh from seeing the kids from 2019. seeing the kids from 2019. seeing the kids from 2019. She couldn't fathom along with the She couldn't fathom along with the She couldn't fathom along with the grandmother uh she couldn't fathom the grandmother uh she couldn't fathom the grandmother uh she couldn't fathom the thought of them going to the father and thought of them going to the father and thought of them going to the father and they're the innocent victims here what I they're the innocent victims here what I they're the innocent victims here what I believe to be a deeprooted uh animosity believe to be a deeprooted uh animosity believe to be a deeprooted uh animosity between the mother and father. This was between the mother and father. This was between the mother and father. This was her way of ultimately robbing him and her way of ultimately robbing him and her way of ultimately robbing him and taking Yes. Right. She lost the court taking Yes. Right. She lost the court taking Yes. Right. She lost the court case in Utah in terms of custody and case in Utah in terms of custody and case in Utah in terms of custody and visitation and this was her answer to visitation and this was her answer to visitation and this was her answer to that.

that. that. All right, let's get into the details All right, let's get into the details All right, let's get into the details here. I mean, we we've kind of given you here. I mean, we we've kind of given you here. I mean, we we've kind of given you the background and now we're going to the background and now we're going to the background and now we're going to talk about how things were revealed in talk about how things were revealed in talk about how things were revealed in real time, which to me is always the real time, which to me is always the real time, which to me is always the most fascinating way to look at a case most fascinating way to look at a case most fascinating way to look at a case because all of a sudden things become because all of a sudden things become because all of a sudden things become clear. So, we're talking about a massive clear. So, we're talking about a massive clear. So, we're talking about a massive custody battle that's straddled two custody battle that's straddled two custody battle that's straddled two states. Utah, where the father lived, states. Utah, where the father lived, states. Utah, where the father lived, and also where the couple where they and also where the couple where they and also where the couple where they were married. I'm not sure if all the were married. I'm not sure if all the were married. I'm not sure if all the children were born there. They may very children were born there. They may very children were born there. They may very well have been. So, we've got two well have been. So, we've got two well have been. So, we've got two states, New York and Utah. Then you have states, New York and Utah. Then you have states, New York and Utah. Then you have four children between the ages of 10 and four children between the ages of 10 and four children between the ages of 10 and 13. Again, police say killed by mother 13. Again, police say killed by mother 13. Again, police say killed by mother and grandmother. And then these murders and grandmother. And then these murders and grandmother. And then these murders are taking place literally days before are taking place literally days before are taking place literally days before the handover. the handover. the handover. Okay. The children's mother, 44year-old Okay. The children's mother, 44year-old Okay. The children's mother, 44year-old Sarah Meyers, and her mother, 64year-old Sarah Meyers, and her mother, 64year-old Sarah Meyers, and her mother, 64year-old Amy Steedman, conspired and they carried Amy Steedman, conspired and they carried Amy Steedman, conspired and they carried out these murders. The bodies were out these murders. The bodies were out these murders. The bodies were discovered on June 23rd. What troubles discovered on June 23rd. What troubles discovered on June 23rd. What troubles me about this case also is this Imran me about this case also is this Imran me about this case also is this Imran that that that you just don't have one mother who is you just don't have one mother who is you just don't have one mother who is and I have to say this. I mean with and I have to say this. I mean with and I have to say this. I mean with crazy thoughts, crazy thoughts, crazy thoughts, but then you have her mother supporting but then you have her mother supporting but then you have her mother supporting her. I mean, these kids didn't stand a her. I mean, these kids didn't stand a her. I mean, these kids didn't stand a chance in this environment.

chance in this environment. chance in this environment. >> No, absolutely not. And you know, you >> No, absolutely not. And you know, you >> No, absolutely not. And you know, you have to imagine uh the horrific scene have to imagine uh the horrific scene have to imagine uh the horrific scene when this was all going down. I can't when this was all going down. I can't when this was all going down. I can't imagine those poor kids of what they imagine those poor kids of what they imagine those poor kids of what they were going through where they see were going through where they see were going through where they see someone who they love, they trust, someone who they love, they trust, someone who they love, they trust, arguably the most closest person in arguably the most closest person in arguably the most closest person in their life, their mother, and then their their life, their mother, and then their their life, their mother, and then their grandmother um going through these grandmother um going through these grandmother um going through these measures uh and and and taking these measures uh and and and taking these measures uh and and and taking these steps. And it must have been a horrific steps. And it must have been a horrific steps. And it must have been a horrific last few moments for these children. Uh last few moments for these children. Uh last few moments for these children. Uh but you see the premeditation and that's but you see the premeditation and that's but you see the premeditation and that's what's so disturbing, right? This wasn't what's so disturbing, right? This wasn't what's so disturbing, right? This wasn't a crime of passion, if you will, where a crime of passion, if you will, where a crime of passion, if you will, where the mother may have had, you know, a a the mother may have had, you know, a a the mother may have had, you know, a a breakdown at the thought right when the breakdown at the thought right when the breakdown at the thought right when the kids were going, something like that. kids were going, something like that. kids were going, something like that. That's inexcusable also, of course, but That's inexcusable also, of course, but That's inexcusable also, of course, but this was planned, premeditated. The this was planned, premeditated. The this was planned, premeditated. The correspondence that you talked about correspondence that you talked about correspondence that you talked about between the mother and the grandmother between the mother and the grandmother between the mother and the grandmother show a a planning, right, and and that show a a planning, right, and and that show a a planning, right, and and that that, you know, forethought as to how that, you know, forethought as to how that, you know, forethought as to how it's going to happen. Um, and you know, it's going to happen. Um, and you know, it's going to happen. Um, and you know, that's what's so disturbing here. Uh, that's what's so disturbing here. Uh, that's what's so disturbing here. Uh, and as the details come out and the and as the details come out and the and as the details come out and the father learns about this, you have to father learns about this, you have to father learns about this, you have to think about how, you know, he's feeling.

think about how, you know, he's feeling. think about how, you know, he's feeling. And that notion that we talked about And that notion that we talked about And that notion that we talked about before that there may never be real before that there may never be real before that there may never be real justice here. Um, is something also to justice here. Um, is something also to justice here. Um, is something also to grapple with, right? You know, the the grapple with, right? You know, the the grapple with, right? You know, the the court system, uh, the criminal justice court system, uh, the criminal justice court system, uh, the criminal justice system, it provides something for system, it provides something for system, it provides something for victims of crime, for the families of victims of crime, for the families of victims of crime, for the families of victims of crime. Right? there's a victims of crime. Right? there's a victims of crime. Right? there's a process out there and sometimes it's a process out there and sometimes it's a process out there and sometimes it's a flawed process and it doesn't go uh as flawed process and it doesn't go uh as flawed process and it doesn't go uh as it should right and you know nothing is it should right and you know nothing is it should right and you know nothing is perfect but I would always say that our perfect but I would always say that our perfect but I would always say that our justice system is the best in the world justice system is the best in the world justice system is the best in the world but for victims and victims of crime and but for victims and victims of crime and but for victims and victims of crime and their families it's the ability to get their families it's the ability to get their families it's the ability to get closure through the law uh ability to closure through the law uh ability to closure through the law uh ability to see uh accountability for people who see uh accountability for people who see uh accountability for people who have broken the law and committed crimes have broken the law and committed crimes have broken the law and committed crimes and heinous crimes such as this but and heinous crimes such as this but and heinous crimes such as this but that's [snorts] not going to happen here that's [snorts] not going to happen here that's [snorts] not going to happen here there's going to be always that there's going to be always that there's going to be always that emptiness most likely for the father and emptiness most likely for the father and emptiness most likely for the father and and those and also the public who's who and those and also the public who's who and those and also the public who's who are looking at this and those who knew are looking at this and those who knew are looking at this and those who knew those children, the teachers, the those children, the teachers, the those children, the teachers, the friends. Um there's never going to be friends. Um there's never going to be friends. Um there's never going to be that closure uh when you have that and that closure uh when you have that and that closure uh when you have that and you're going to be just left with these you're going to be just left with these you're going to be just left with these facts, this heinous sort of situation uh facts, this heinous sort of situation uh facts, this heinous sort of situation uh with no closure in that that way. But with no closure in that that way. But with no closure in that that way. But again, um, to see this hitting the again, um, to see this hitting the again, um, to see this hitting the headlines now at the same time where headlines now at the same time where headlines now at the same time where where all eyes are on that Clancy trial, where all eyes are on that Clancy trial, where all eyes are on that Clancy trial, uh, it is it's it's not related, but uh, it is it's it's not related, but uh, it is it's it's not related, but it's also in the same sense you see a it's also in the same sense you see a it's also in the same sense you see a mother taking that step. Uh, which, you mother taking that step. Uh, which, you mother taking that step. Uh, which, you know, is almost the inexcusable and know, is almost the inexcusable and know, is almost the inexcusable and unfathomable, you know, unacceptable, unfathomable, you know, unacceptable, unfathomable, you know, unacceptable, you can't even imagine that, right? Um,

you can't even imagine that, right? Um, you can't even imagine that, right? Um, but we'll never have that closure in but we'll never have that closure in but we'll never have that closure in terms from a legal sense here. terms from a legal sense here. terms from a legal sense here. >> No. No. And there never really can be >> No. No. And there never really can be >> No. No. And there never really can be full closure, but I do hear you. There full closure, but I do hear you. There full closure, but I do hear you. There is that moment when you get to say is that moment when you get to say is that moment when you get to say something and maybe you get heard and something and maybe you get heard and something and maybe you get heard and you get to release that pain just a you get to release that pain just a you get to release that pain just a little bit. Maybe that helps you heal a little bit. Maybe that helps you heal a little bit. Maybe that helps you heal a little. I don't know what recourse this little. I don't know what recourse this little. I don't know what recourse this this father has. He really doesn't. He this father has. He really doesn't. He this father has. He really doesn't. He really doesn't. Okay, let's get back to really doesn't. Okay, let's get back to really doesn't. Okay, let's get back to the victims here. So, authorities the victims here. So, authorities the victims here. So, authorities believe that the children were poisoned believe that the children were poisoned believe that the children were poisoned and one was stabbed. We don't have the and one was stabbed. We don't have the and one was stabbed. We don't have the toxicology reports yet, but the police toxicology reports yet, but the police toxicology reports yet, but the police chief goes into detail as to why he chief goes into detail as to why he chief goes into detail as to why he thinks that they were poisoned. And thinks that they were poisoned. And thinks that they were poisoned. And again, it's based on the writings of the again, it's based on the writings of the again, it's based on the writings of the mother and the grandmother. The victims mother and the grandmother. The victims mother and the grandmother. The victims here are 10-year-old twins Gavin and here are 10-year-old twins Gavin and here are 10-year-old twins Gavin and Graceland Harmon, 11-year-old Hudson, Graceland Harmon, 11-year-old Hudson, Graceland Harmon, 11-year-old Hudson, and 13-year-old Harper. The father here, and 13-year-old Harper. The father here, and 13-year-old Harper. The father here, Brady Harmon, who has lost his four Brady Harmon, who has lost his four Brady Harmon, who has lost his four children, says he's been unfairly children, says he's been unfairly children, says he's been unfairly accused of abuse here. So while he's accused of abuse here. So while he's accused of abuse here. So while he's trying to grieve, he's also trying to trying to grieve, he's also trying to trying to grieve, he's also trying to defend himself. And we'll never really defend himself. And we'll never really defend himself. And we'll never really get to the bottom of that one. We'll get to the bottom of that one. We'll get to the bottom of that one. We'll never get that answer. So I think in never get that answer. So I think in never get that answer. So I think in order to understand how we got to this order to understand how we got to this order to understand how we got to this point, which of course I don't really point, which of course I don't really point, which of course I don't really think we can, think we can, think we can, let's at least look at the dynamics of let's at least look at the dynamics of let's at least look at the dynamics of the relationship of the two adults, the the relationship of the two adults, the the relationship of the two adults, the parents, and how we got to this crisis.

parents, and how we got to this crisis. parents, and how we got to this crisis. So Sarah Meyers and Brady Harmon married So Sarah Meyers and Brady Harmon married So Sarah Meyers and Brady Harmon married in December of 2015 in Salt Lake City, in December of 2015 in Salt Lake City, in December of 2015 in Salt Lake City, Utah. Together they had the four Utah. Together they had the four Utah. Together they had the four children, Harper, Hudson, twins Gavin children, Harper, Hudson, twins Gavin children, Harper, Hudson, twins Gavin and Graceland. And then the marriage and Graceland. And then the marriage and Graceland. And then the marriage falls apart and they separate in 2019. falls apart and they separate in 2019. falls apart and they separate in 2019. They finalized their divorce the next They finalized their divorce the next They finalized their divorce the next year and they apparently came to some year and they apparently came to some year and they apparently came to some kind of an agreement where the father kind of an agreement where the father kind of an agreement where the father would have the kids for the summer, the would have the kids for the summer, the would have the kids for the summer, the mom would have the kids for the school mom would have the kids for the school mom would have the kids for the school year. But according to him, year. But according to him, year. But according to him, he claims she never lived up to her part he claims she never lived up to her part he claims she never lived up to her part of it. So that's where the battle comes of it. So that's where the battle comes of it. So that's where the battle comes in. I I realize family law is not your in. I I realize family law is not your in. I I realize family law is not your area of expertise, but what do you do in area of expertise, but what do you do in area of expertise, but what do you do in a situation like this where you have two a situation like this where you have two a situation like this where you have two courts in essence because she's she's courts in essence because she's she's courts in essence because she's she's living in New York, but the decisions living in New York, but the decisions living in New York, but the decisions and the agreement were made in Utah. How and the agreement were made in Utah. How and the agreement were made in Utah. How do you even enforce that? do you even enforce that? do you even enforce that? >> Sure. And I think that was the >> Sure. And I think that was the >> Sure. And I think that was the frustration here, right? And there's frustration here, right? And there's frustration here, right? And there's some blame being put uh not necessarily some blame being put uh not necessarily some blame being put uh not necessarily rightly so, you know, but uh on the rightly so, you know, but uh on the rightly so, you know, but uh on the system, right, the courts in Utah for system, right, the courts in Utah for system, right, the courts in Utah for allowing this to happen. This is what allowing this to happen. This is what allowing this to happen. This is what the father has made some statements to the father has made some statements to the father has made some statements to the press uh in that, you know, in that the press uh in that, you know, in that the press uh in that, you know, in that vein. Um but yeah, there's sort of vein. Um but yeah, there's sort of vein. Um but yeah, there's sort of crossjurisdictional considerations here.

crossjurisdictional considerations here. crossjurisdictional considerations here. And when one uh parent takes the And when one uh parent takes the And when one uh parent takes the children uh when there's a custody or children uh when there's a custody or children uh when there's a custody or visitation order um outside the state, visitation order um outside the state, visitation order um outside the state, it complicates it even more. And if it's it complicates it even more. And if it's it complicates it even more. And if it's after the custody or visitation orders after the custody or visitation orders after the custody or visitation orders already entered in by the original home already entered in by the original home already entered in by the original home state court, um then it becomes a a state court, um then it becomes a a state court, um then it becomes a a question of jurisdiction, right? But question of jurisdiction, right? But question of jurisdiction, right? But ultimately here, um it was the Utah ultimately here, um it was the Utah ultimately here, um it was the Utah court which issued the custody or court which issued the custody or court which issued the custody or visitation order or lack thereof that visitation order or lack thereof that visitation order or lack thereof that essentially was modified which sent the essentially was modified which sent the essentially was modified which sent the mother and the grandmother sort of in mother and the grandmother sort of in mother and the grandmother sort of in this tail spin here. Uh and he hadn't this tail spin here. Uh and he hadn't this tail spin here. Uh and he hadn't had custody uh or visitation I believe had custody uh or visitation I believe had custody uh or visitation I believe since 2019. That's a exceedingly long since 2019. That's a exceedingly long since 2019. That's a exceedingly long amount of time. Uh and you know I don't amount of time. Uh and you know I don't amount of time. Uh and you know I don't personally know the details of what was personally know the details of what was personally know the details of what was going on in the court you know uh in going on in the court you know uh in going on in the court you know uh in terms of the filings and you know what terms of the filings and you know what terms of the filings and you know what allegations or accusations were made allegations or accusations were made allegations or accusations were made there or why the mother was uh able to there or why the mother was uh able to there or why the mother was uh able to take the children and keep them without take the children and keep them without take the children and keep them without the visitation or custody. But you know the visitation or custody. But you know the visitation or custody. But you know sometimes the wheels of justice you know sometimes the wheels of justice you know sometimes the wheels of justice you know turn slowly especially you had co in turn slowly especially you had co in turn slowly especially you had co in between. Who knows? But anyways, fast between. Who knows? But anyways, fast between. Who knows? But anyways, fast forward to now, right, to 2026. And then forward to now, right, to 2026. And then forward to now, right, to 2026. And then you have that being modified or at least you have that being modified or at least you have that being modified or at least being enforced where this father is being enforced where this father is being enforced where this father is finally going to get to see his children finally going to get to see his children finally going to get to see his children for what I believe was like two months for what I believe was like two months for what I believe was like two months over the summer. Um, and that never over the summer. Um, and that never over the summer. Um, and that never happens, right? So, um, you see the happens, right? So, um, you see the happens, right? So, um, you see the interplay of of the courts. We're not interplay of of the courts. We're not interplay of of the courts. We're not necessarily talking about the criminal necessarily talking about the criminal necessarily talking about the criminal course here, but yeah, the family course here, but yeah, the family course here, but yeah, the family courts. um and how these custody battles

courts. um and how these custody battles courts. um and how these custody battles could get so bitter um that it goes to could get so bitter um that it goes to could get so bitter um that it goes to some egregious egregious conduct like some egregious egregious conduct like some egregious egregious conduct like this, you know, but I think there was a this, you know, but I think there was a this, you know, but I think there was a deeprooted issue here. Oh yes. um you deeprooted issue here. Oh yes. um you deeprooted issue here. Oh yes. um you know perhaps psychologically, know perhaps psychologically, know perhaps psychologically, emotionally to take this extreme emotionally to take this extreme emotionally to take this extreme measure. measure. measure. >> And the mother said in her letter, which >> And the mother said in her letter, which >> And the mother said in her letter, which was supported by the grandmother, that was supported by the grandmother, that was supported by the grandmother, that the mother felt like she wasn't being the mother felt like she wasn't being the mother felt like she wasn't being heard and that her allegations weren't heard and that her allegations weren't heard and that her allegations weren't and claims weren't being taken and claims weren't being taken and claims weren't being taken seriously. And then the grandmother seriously. And then the grandmother seriously. And then the grandmother backs her up and says she did everything backs her up and says she did everything backs her up and says she did everything she could. So, in their world, in their she could. So, in their world, in their she could. So, in their world, in their mind, no matter how twisted, mind, no matter how twisted, mind, no matter how twisted, they really thought they were saving the they really thought they were saving the they really thought they were saving the children here, which I can't even sort children here, which I can't even sort children here, which I can't even sort through. Like, I can't even go there. through. Like, I can't even go there. through. Like, I can't even go there. But this is what was at the heart of of But this is what was at the heart of of But this is what was at the heart of of this insane plan. Now, he was supposed this insane plan. Now, he was supposed this insane plan. Now, he was supposed to fly out to fly out to fly out on July 1st to pick up the children and on July 1st to pick up the children and on July 1st to pick up the children and take them back. And so there was a take them back. And so there was a take them back. And so there was a filed motion on June 2nd where the filed motion on June 2nd where the filed motion on June 2nd where the father is now alleging that the mother father is now alleging that the mother father is now alleging that the mother is violating the parental agreement as is violating the parental agreement as is violating the parental agreement as you said that she was interfering with you said that she was interfering with you said that she was interfering with the father's ability to communicate with the father's ability to communicate with the father's ability to communicate with the children. He claimed he said this to the children. He claimed he said this to the children. He claimed he said this to a reporter um upstate. He said they were a reporter um upstate. He said they were a reporter um upstate. He said they were living in filth. He said they were being living in filth. He said they were being living in filth. He said they were being inadequately homeschooled, which he inadequately homeschooled, which he inadequately homeschooled, which he apparently didn't know anything about.

apparently didn't know anything about. apparently didn't know anything about. He just thought they were going to He just thought they were going to He just thought they were going to school. school. school. >> And that he also claimed that he had >> And that he also claimed that he had >> And that he also claimed that he had reached out to child and family services reached out to child and family services reached out to child and family services to investigate. to investigate. to investigate. What happens when there's when we are What happens when there's when we are What happens when there's when we are either in family court or child either in family court or child either in family court or child protective services, it's I mean that is protective services, it's I mean that is protective services, it's I mean that is like a giant black box to which we do like a giant black box to which we do like a giant black box to which we do not have access to what's really going not have access to what's really going not have access to what's really going on back there, on back there, on back there, >> right? No. Absolutely. And you know, you >> right? No. Absolutely. And you know, you >> right? No. Absolutely. And you know, you see this time and time again uh in see this time and time again uh in see this time and time again uh in situations involving children which situations involving children which situations involving children which ultimately end up with the you know the ultimately end up with the you know the ultimately end up with the you know the outcome that no one wants to hear, you outcome that no one wants to hear, you outcome that no one wants to hear, you know, a child being killed or passing know, a child being killed or passing know, a child being killed or passing away where there's uh child protective away where there's uh child protective away where there's uh child protective services CPS involved. Uh and then services CPS involved. Uh and then services CPS involved. Uh and then there's allegations after that they there's allegations after that they there's allegations after that they didn't do enough or you know they didn't didn't do enough or you know they didn't didn't do enough or you know they didn't uh intervene when they were requested to uh intervene when they were requested to uh intervene when they were requested to do so. Um, I don't know what was going do so. Um, I don't know what was going do so. Um, I don't know what was going on here, but you know, to for this to on here, but you know, to for this to on here, but you know, to for this to happen, you have to imagine that there happen, you have to imagine that there happen, you have to imagine that there was some serious serious uh, you know, was some serious serious uh, you know, was some serious serious uh, you know, uh, mishandling. uh, mishandling. uh, mishandling. >> Yeah. There had to have been something.

>> Yeah. There had to have been something. >> Yeah. There had to have been something. This just doesn't just like This just doesn't just like This just doesn't just like >> bam, I wake up today, I'm killing the >> bam, I wake up today, I'm killing the >> bam, I wake up today, I'm killing the children, mom's going to help me, you children, mom's going to help me, you children, mom's going to help me, you know, know, know, >> right? And to even get to get to that >> right? And to even get to get to that >> right? And to even get to get to that point, you know, you're you're in that point, you know, you're you're in that point, you know, you're you're in that situation and and you know, the court situation and and you know, the court situation and and you know, the court modified or or was enforcing the custody modified or or was enforcing the custody modified or or was enforcing the custody or visitation order. They recognized or visitation order. They recognized or visitation order. They recognized that the father uh should see the that the father uh should see the that the father uh should see the children. Um and you know what was going children. Um and you know what was going children. Um and you know what was going on behind those closed doors with with on behind those closed doors with with on behind those closed doors with with the the mother and the grandmother. Uh the the mother and the grandmother. Uh the the mother and the grandmother. Uh it's obviously with the homeschooling. it's obviously with the homeschooling. it's obviously with the homeschooling. I'm not saying homeschooling is is I'm not saying homeschooling is is I'm not saying homeschooling is is wrong, but if if they weren't going to wrong, but if if they weren't going to wrong, but if if they weren't going to school or they weren't being school or they weren't being school or they weren't being homeschooled properly, that means there homeschooled properly, that means there homeschooled properly, that means there was a lot of neglect potentially with was a lot of neglect potentially with was a lot of neglect potentially with these children. uh potential sort of these children. uh potential sort of these children. uh potential sort of maybe abuse even at home at that point maybe abuse even at home at that point maybe abuse even at home at that point because it comes to the point would because it comes to the point would because it comes to the point would again the planning the preparation for again the planning the preparation for again the planning the preparation for where they take the lives of these poor where they take the lives of these poor where they take the lives of these poor children um that there was clearly children um that there was clearly children um that there was clearly clearly uh something wrong in that clearly uh something wrong in that clearly uh something wrong in that household. household. household. >> Mhm. And you would think given that the >> Mhm. And you would think given that the >> Mhm. And you would think given that the children were between 10 and 13 at some children were between 10 and 13 at some children were between 10 and 13 at some point somewhere some school or school point somewhere some school or school point somewhere some school or school district would have noticed there are district would have noticed there are district would have noticed there are four children who are not in school.

four children who are not in school. four children who are not in school. Okay. Are they registered? I don't know Okay. Are they registered? I don't know Okay. Are they registered? I don't know how that works, but I presume that there how that works, but I presume that there how that works, but I presume that there has to be some kind of registration has to be some kind of registration has to be some kind of registration acknowledgement that the children are acknowledgement that the children are acknowledgement that the children are being homeschooled, right? being homeschooled, right? being homeschooled, right? >> Yeah. I I believe so. You know, >> Yeah. I I believe so. You know, >> Yeah. I I believe so. You know, >> I don't know. I haven't tried it. I you >> I don't know. I haven't tried it. I you >> I don't know. I haven't tried it. I you know but but uh so know but but uh so know but but uh so >> you know there's like there's this gray >> you know there's like there's this gray >> you know there's like there's this gray area where because when children don't area where because when children don't area where because when children don't show up for school for example that's show up for school for example that's show up for school for example that's when sometimes the authorities are when sometimes the authorities are when sometimes the authorities are alerted or if there are allegations of alerted or if there are allegations of alerted or if there are allegations of let's say the children maybe aren't well let's say the children maybe aren't well let's say the children maybe aren't well taken care of taken care of taken care of >> then there are procedures in place to >> then there are procedures in place to >> then there are procedures in place to notify the correct authorities to notify the correct authorities to notify the correct authorities to investigate. So that security blanket, investigate. So that security blanket, investigate. So that security blanket, if you will, did not exist in this case if you will, did not exist in this case if you will, did not exist in this case because the kids were um being because the kids were um being because the kids were um being homeschooled, the father says, homeschooled, the father says, homeschooled, the father says, inappropriately. Now, the Utah court had inappropriately. Now, the Utah court had inappropriately. Now, the Utah court had scheduled a hearing for July 29th to scheduled a hearing for July 29th to scheduled a hearing for July 29th to determine if the mother had violated the determine if the mother had violated the determine if the mother had violated the agreement. My guess is the Utah court agreement. My guess is the Utah court agreement. My guess is the Utah court was going to say, "Madam, you have was going to say, "Madam, you have was going to say, "Madam, you have violated this agreement." So, she violated this agreement." So, she violated this agreement." So, she probably saw the writing on the wall probably saw the writing on the wall probably saw the writing on the wall here. And as we said, July 1st, dad's here. And as we said, July 1st, dad's here. And as we said, July 1st, dad's coming to pick up the kids. All right.

coming to pick up the kids. All right. coming to pick up the kids. All right. Now, according to investigators, Now, according to investigators, Now, according to investigators, here's what they believe happened based here's what they believe happened based here's what they believe happened based on the electronic evidence that they on the electronic evidence that they on the electronic evidence that they found on the phones of the mother and found on the phones of the mother and found on the phones of the mother and the grandmother, plus also these written the grandmother, plus also these written the grandmother, plus also these written documents and other files that were documents and other files that were documents and other files that were found. And this is all in the days found. And this is all in the days found. And this is all in the days leading up to June 10th. June 10th is a leading up to June 10th. June 10th is a leading up to June 10th. June 10th is a really important mark here because the really important mark here because the really important mark here because the children weren't found and the um two children weren't found and the um two children weren't found and the um two women weren't found until the 23rd, women weren't found until the 23rd, women weren't found until the 23rd, right? But [snorts] on the 10th, the dad right? But [snorts] on the 10th, the dad right? But [snorts] on the 10th, the dad was supposed to have a call with the was supposed to have a call with the was supposed to have a call with the kids. So, the planning reveals that they kids. So, the planning reveals that they kids. So, the planning reveals that they had to get this done before the dad had to get this done before the dad had to get this done before the dad called. I I can't even imagine that this called. I I can't even imagine that this called. I I can't even imagine that this is your deadline to murder. Oh, we got is your deadline to murder. Oh, we got is your deadline to murder. Oh, we got to get this done before dad calls. to get this done before dad calls. to get this done before dad calls. That's diabolical. That's diabolical. That's diabolical. >> No, absolutely. And I I I believe the >> No, absolutely. And I I I believe the >> No, absolutely. And I I I believe the dad does call, right? Yes, he does. And dad does call, right? Yes, he does. And dad does call, right? Yes, he does. And then he's told that they're not feeling then he's told that they're not feeling then he's told that they're not feeling well and and um that moment, right? You well and and um that moment, right? You well and and um that moment, right? You know, it's some it's haunting when you know, it's some it's haunting when you know, it's some it's haunting when you now know what really occurred there. Uh now know what really occurred there. Uh now know what really occurred there. Uh but what's going on at that point? You but what's going on at that point? You but what's going on at that point? You know, has the the plant is the are the know, has the the plant is the are the know, has the the plant is the are the wheels in motion now? Are the kids being wheels in motion now? Are the kids being wheels in motion now? Are the kids being fed uh something with the poison in it?

fed uh something with the poison in it? fed uh something with the poison in it? Are they being administered medication Are they being administered medication Are they being administered medication uh you know, uh which ultimately would uh you know, uh which ultimately would uh you know, uh which ultimately would would poison them? It's sort of a would poison them? It's sort of a would poison them? It's sort of a haunting set of facts there that the haunting set of facts there that the haunting set of facts there that the father's calling to speak with the kids father's calling to speak with the kids father's calling to speak with the kids to see what's going on. Uh and they're to see what's going on. Uh and they're to see what's going on. Uh and they're be and you know he's being told that be and you know he's being told that be and you know he's being told that they're not feeling well and then I they're not feeling well and then I they're not feeling well and then I believe within what 24 hours of that believe within what 24 hours of that believe within what 24 hours of that call uh that's where they're sort of call uh that's where they're sort of call uh that's where they're sort of pinning uh the time of death. pinning uh the time of death. pinning uh the time of death. >> Correct. Correct. Because obviously the >> Correct. Correct. Because obviously the >> Correct. Correct. Because obviously the mother's still alive to relay the mother's still alive to relay the mother's still alive to relay the information. No, you can't talk to the information. No, you can't talk to the information. No, you can't talk to the kids and then she's dead. So that they kids and then she's dead. So that they kids and then she's dead. So that they believe that that's when the children believe that that's when the children believe that that's when the children were murdered and then the two women were murdered and then the two women were murdered and then the two women took their lives. took their lives. took their lives. Oh my goodness. Okay, this to me is so Oh my goodness. Okay, this to me is so Oh my goodness. Okay, this to me is so chilling. you know, when the cops get chilling. you know, when the cops get chilling. you know, when the cops get there, when the cops get there, because there, when the cops get there, because there, when the cops get there, because it was like two weeks later, there were it was like two weeks later, there were it was like two weeks later, there were two calls, two welfare calls that the two calls, two welfare calls that the two calls, two welfare calls that the dad had asked for, and they were done, I dad had asked for, and they were done, I dad had asked for, and they were done, I believe, on the 13th and on the 17th, believe, on the 13th and on the 17th, believe, on the 13th and on the 17th, but it's believed the children were but it's believed the children were but it's believed the children were already dead on the 10th. Um, I want to already dead on the 10th. Um, I want to already dead on the 10th. Um, I want to ask you about this because this is ask you about this because this is ask you about this because this is something I always have a question something I always have a question something I always have a question about. I see this in so many cases. The about. I see this in so many cases. The about. I see this in so many cases. The welfare check is a knock on the door. If welfare check is a knock on the door. If welfare check is a knock on the door. If they don't answer police, it's not like they don't answer police, it's not like they don't answer police, it's not like police are going to break in, right?

police are going to break in, right? [snorts] >> Absolutely. They can't under the law, >> Absolutely. They can't under the law, >> Absolutely. They can't under the law, right? They would have to get a search right? They would have to get a search right? They would have to get a search warrant signed off by the judge. Uh if warrant signed off by the judge. Uh if warrant signed off by the judge. Uh if there's no reason, you know, no exigent there's no reason, you know, no exigent there's no reason, you know, no exigent circumstances. Uh no reason to believe circumstances. Uh no reason to believe circumstances. Uh no reason to believe that there's some criminality a foot uh that there's some criminality a foot uh that there's some criminality a foot uh within, you know, the location uh that within, you know, the location uh that within, you know, the location uh that would warrant them entering into uh a would warrant them entering into uh a would warrant them entering into uh a secured home or apartment like that. secured home or apartment like that. secured home or apartment like that. Right. So the welfare checks. Yeah, it's Right. So the welfare checks. Yeah, it's Right. So the welfare checks. Yeah, it's a knock on the door. I would imagine a knock on the door. I would imagine a knock on the door. I would imagine that they uh sort of use their senses um that they uh sort of use their senses um that they uh sort of use their senses um to to see if there's any odor of, you to to see if there's any odor of, you to to see if there's any odor of, you know, a a decomposing body and things know, a a decomposing body and things know, a a decomposing body and things like that because usually wellness like that because usually wellness like that because usually wellness checks are being called in because checks are being called in because checks are being called in because someone has not been able to get in someone has not been able to get in someone has not been able to get in touch with another, right? So, they're touch with another, right? So, they're touch with another, right? So, they're going to the location of the home. going to the location of the home. going to the location of the home. They're looking around, you know, if the They're looking around, you know, if the They're looking around, you know, if the vehicle is there, but ultimately, you vehicle is there, but ultimately, you vehicle is there, but ultimately, you know, their hands are tied in terms of know, their hands are tied in terms of know, their hands are tied in terms of entering the location, unless there's a entering the location, unless there's a entering the location, unless there's a legal reason uh to enter the location. legal reason uh to enter the location. legal reason uh to enter the location. And usually um in circumstances like And usually um in circumstances like And usually um in circumstances like this, someone else is now complaining this, someone else is now complaining this, someone else is now complaining that there's that telltale odor uh of a that there's that telltale odor uh of a that there's that telltale odor uh of a decomposing body. And you know, I'm a decomposing body. And you know, I'm a decomposing body. And you know, I'm a former prosecutor. I used to do ride former prosecutor. I used to do ride former prosecutor. I used to do ride alongs with detectives in the NYPD, and alongs with detectives in the NYPD, and alongs with detectives in the NYPD, and I know that smell. and it's a a telltale I know that smell. and it's a a telltale I know that smell. and it's a a telltale smell and it starts permeating a smell and it starts permeating a smell and it starts permeating a location, right? Uh so usually that's location, right? Uh so usually that's location, right? Uh so usually that's what allows them to enter a location and what allows them to enter a location and what allows them to enter a location and ultimately discover bodies. But those ultimately discover bodies. But those ultimately discover bodies. But those first wellness checks, they probably first wellness checks, they probably first wellness checks, they probably didn't have that cause uh to do that or didn't have that cause uh to do that or didn't have that cause uh to do that or the ability to just enter in to the the ability to just enter in to the the ability to just enter in to the location absent a knock uh or an inquiry

location absent a knock uh or an inquiry location absent a knock uh or an inquiry around the perimeter of the location. Uh around the perimeter of the location. Uh around the perimeter of the location. Uh things like that. things like that. things like that. >> Yeah. And and so people are quick to >> Yeah. And and so people are quick to >> Yeah. And and so people are quick to blame the police saying, "Oh, they blame the police saying, "Oh, they blame the police saying, "Oh, they should have done something." But I should have done something." But I should have done something." But I that's why I always like to review what that's why I always like to review what that's why I always like to review what the wellness check actually encompasses the wellness check actually encompasses the wellness check actually encompasses because you feel like, oh, the system because you feel like, oh, the system because you feel like, oh, the system let you down again. No, they did let you down again. No, they did let you down again. No, they did everything they could if there weren't everything they could if there weren't everything they could if there weren't any signs of Now, now sometimes people any signs of Now, now sometimes people any signs of Now, now sometimes people will show up, police will show up at a will show up, police will show up at a will show up, police will show up at a house and they may see blood or the door house and they may see blood or the door house and they may see blood or the door is open or, you know, all sorts of is open or, you know, all sorts of is open or, you know, all sorts of things that indicate a crime has been things that indicate a crime has been things that indicate a crime has been committed. In this one, there wasn't. committed. In this one, there wasn't. committed. In this one, there wasn't. However, I want to add one more thing to However, I want to add one more thing to However, I want to add one more thing to this. So the grandmother and the mother this. So the grandmother and the mother this. So the grandmother and the mother lived in the same apartment complex. The lived in the same apartment complex. The lived in the same apartment complex. The children were in the grandma's children were in the grandma's children were in the grandma's apartment. Everyone died there. So what apartment. Everyone died there. So what apartment. Everyone died there. So what I'm wondering, and I don't know the I'm wondering, and I don't know the I'm wondering, and I don't know the answer to this, is it's entirely answer to this, is it's entirely answer to this, is it's entirely possible that the cops were knocking on possible that the cops were knocking on possible that the cops were knocking on mom's door. mom's door. mom's door. >> That's a great point. Yeah. No, that's >> That's a great point. Yeah. No, that's >> That's a great point. Yeah. No, that's uh entirely possible. And you know, uh entirely possible. And you know, uh entirely possible. And you know, unless the father said go check unless the father said go check unless the father said go check grandma's uh apartment also. Um, but grandma's uh apartment also. Um, but grandma's uh apartment also. Um, but that could be the case, right? Because I that could be the case, right? Because I that could be the case, right? Because I ultimately I think the neighbor or a ultimately I think the neighbor or a ultimately I think the neighbor or a neighbor uh calls it in again and that's neighbor uh calls it in again and that's neighbor uh calls it in again and that's when they discover the bodies in when they discover the bodies in when they discover the bodies in grandma's apartment, right? So, I mean, grandma's apartment, right? So, I mean, grandma's apartment, right? So, I mean, that could have been the case and there that could have been the case and there that could have been the case and there just didn't seem to be anything, you just didn't seem to be anything, you just didn't seem to be anything, you know, at the mother's apartment that know, at the mother's apartment that know, at the mother's apartment that would warrant them uh entering in at would warrant them uh entering in at would warrant them uh entering in at that time. And no doubt the the officers that time. And no doubt the the officers that time. And no doubt the the officers who knocked on that door of course have who knocked on that door of course have who knocked on that door of course have got to feel horrible now knowing that got to feel horrible now knowing that got to feel horrible now knowing that the two times they showed up these

the two times they showed up these the two times they showed up these children were decomposing there. There children were decomposing there. There children were decomposing there. There was nothing that could have been done. was nothing that could have been done. was nothing that could have been done. The children were dead already. But that The children were dead already. But that The children were dead already. But that in itself is very haunting and it really in itself is very haunting and it really in itself is very haunting and it really you know it nobody wants to see children you know it nobody wants to see children you know it nobody wants to see children suffer and this so this this entire suffer and this so this this entire suffer and this so this this entire crime scene is just it's it's so crime scene is just it's it's so crime scene is just it's it's so horrific. It's so it's just oh my god I horrific. It's so it's just oh my god I horrific. It's so it's just oh my god I get so upset talking about this case. get so upset talking about this case. get so upset talking about this case. Now we still um don't know as I said the Now we still um don't know as I said the Now we still um don't know as I said the toxicology reports are not in but toxicology reports are not in but toxicology reports are not in but here's what the police chief of here's what the police chief of here's what the police chief of Mechanicville New York says. His name is Mechanicville New York says. His name is Mechanicville New York says. His name is Chief William Rabbit. And he said that Chief William Rabbit. And he said that Chief William Rabbit. And he said that the text messages and the handwritten the text messages and the handwritten the text messages and the handwritten notes reveal this alleged plot and how notes reveal this alleged plot and how notes reveal this alleged plot and how they discussed it. the types of they discussed it. the types of they discussed it. the types of medications that would be given to the medications that would be given to the medications that would be given to the children and that they didn't want to children and that they didn't want to children and that they didn't want to raise suspicion. So already you know raise suspicion. So already you know raise suspicion. So already you know that they know they're doing something that they know they're doing something that they know they're doing something wrong. It's not one of these like oh wrong. It's not one of these like oh wrong. It's not one of these like oh they had no idea. I mean come on. they had no idea. I mean come on. they had no idea. I mean come on. >> So there's one message the police said >> So there's one message the police said >> So there's one message the police said at one point during this plot quote it's at one point during this plot quote it's at one point during this plot quote it's not working. We need another option.

not working. We need another option. not working. We need another option. >> That to me indicates these children are >> That to me indicates these children are >> That to me indicates these children are suffering. they're alive and now they're suffering. they're alive and now they're suffering. they're alive and now they're trying to double down on killing them. trying to double down on killing them. trying to double down on killing them. And I I I I can't even picture this. And I I I I can't even picture this. And I I I I can't even picture this. >> No. And and you know those facts that >> No. And and you know those facts that >> No. And and you know those facts that are now trickling out, right, and that are now trickling out, right, and that are now trickling out, right, and that we're learning from law enforcement, we're learning from law enforcement, we're learning from law enforcement, that's what makes this, you know, even that's what makes this, you know, even that's what makes this, you know, even harder to hear uh because you can harder to hear uh because you can harder to hear uh because you can imagine uh that those kids are suffering imagine uh that those kids are suffering imagine uh that those kids are suffering and they must be wondering what's going and they must be wondering what's going and they must be wondering what's going on. And you know, are grandma and ma on. And you know, are grandma and ma on. And you know, are grandma and ma just telling them, "Oh, you must have just telling them, "Oh, you must have just telling them, "Oh, you must have eaten something. your stomach's upset or eaten something. your stomach's upset or eaten something. your stomach's upset or or things like that and you know I you or things like that and you know I you or things like that and you know I you get these mental images that these get these mental images that these get these mental images that these little little bodies are just writhing little little bodies are just writhing little little bodies are just writhing around in pain and really suffering from around in pain and really suffering from around in pain and really suffering from what they're being given. Uh and then what they're being given. Uh and then what they're being given. Uh and then yeah, then now the planning goes yeah, then now the planning goes yeah, then now the planning goes further, right? And then it takes a even further, right? And then it takes a even further, right? And then it takes a even more twisted u sort of chain of of more twisted u sort of chain of of more twisted u sort of chain of of events here where there's forensic events here where there's forensic events here where there's forensic evidence of stabbing, you know, and evidence of stabbing, you know, and evidence of stabbing, you know, and that's you know, now the sort of mental that's you know, now the sort of mental that's you know, now the sort of mental imagery that you you don't want to have imagery that you you don't want to have imagery that you you don't want to have coming to your mind, but what you know coming to your mind, but what you know coming to your mind, but what you know is inevitable when you're looking and is inevitable when you're looking and is inevitable when you're looking and hearing about these facts is that these hearing about these facts is that these hearing about these facts is that these kids were suffering, right? So this kids were suffering, right? So this kids were suffering, right? So this wasn't instantaneous. Uh, and I I can wasn't instantaneous. Uh, and I I can wasn't instantaneous. Uh, and I I can imagine the father hearing about this imagine the father hearing about this imagine the father hearing about this and he's he's made some comments to the and he's he's made some comments to the and he's he's made some comments to the press. Yeah.

press. Yeah. press. Yeah. >> Makes it all the more worse and hard to >> Makes it all the more worse and hard to >> Makes it all the more worse and hard to hard to, you know, to really deal with. hard to, you know, to really deal with. hard to, you know, to really deal with. >> Yeah. Because there apparently was a >> Yeah. Because there apparently was a >> Yeah. Because there apparently was a text from one of the children. Police text from one of the children. Police text from one of the children. Police said that this message is attributed to said that this message is attributed to said that this message is attributed to 10-year-old Gracelyn and in the message 10-year-old Gracelyn and in the message 10-year-old Gracelyn and in the message it's like, "Why would you do that? You it's like, "Why would you do that? You it's like, "Why would you do that? You both won't let me puke. I That is a level of violence. I That is a level of violence. I can't process that. I can't process that. I can't process that. >> Yeah. And that's the twin, right? That >> Yeah. And that's the twin, right? That >> Yeah. And that's the twin, right? That you know, and we learn about what uh her you know, and we learn about what uh her you know, and we learn about what uh her twin um you know, in terms of twin um you know, in terms of twin um you know, in terms of >> Gavin, her twin. >> Gavin, her twin. >> Gavin, her twin. >> Yeah. Gavin uh in terms of the defensive >> Yeah. Gavin uh in terms of the defensive >> Yeah. Gavin uh in terms of the defensive wounds and things like that. Um that wounds and things like that. Um that wounds and things like that. Um that were discovered. Now you have struggle, were discovered. Now you have struggle, were discovered. Now you have struggle, right? And again, you have the text right? And again, you have the text right? And again, you have the text message there. Uh, you know, a a a young message there. Uh, you know, a a a young message there. Uh, you know, a a a young child, you know, pleading with the child, you know, pleading with the child, you know, pleading with the mother and grandmother like, "Help me or mother and grandmother like, "Help me or mother and grandmother like, "Help me or let me help myself or like I I need to let me help myself or like I I need to let me help myself or like I I need to throw up or we need to throw up. We're throw up or we need to throw up. We're throw up or we need to throw up. We're not feeling well." And they're not feeling well." And they're not feeling well." And they're preventing that, right? You know, the preventing that, right? You know, the preventing that, right? You know, the confusion in those little minds at that confusion in those little minds at that confusion in those little minds at that time, right? you know, looking at the time, right? you know, looking at the time, right? you know, looking at the people who are there who should be people who are there who should be people who are there who should be safeguarding them and now they're safeguarding them and now they're safeguarding them and now they're suffering and not helping them and then suffering and not helping them and then suffering and not helping them and then what we learn about from the uh the what we learn about from the uh the what we learn about from the uh the medical examiner reports about the medical examiner reports about the medical examiner reports about the struggle and defensive wounds and the struggle and defensive wounds and the struggle and defensive wounds and the stabbing. Um it's horrific. It's stabbing. Um it's horrific. It's stabbing. Um it's horrific. It's horrific. And you know that's why these horrific. And you know that's why these horrific. And you know that's why these cases of infanticide

cases of infanticide cases of infanticide um are so difficult to deal with. uh and um are so difficult to deal with. uh and um are so difficult to deal with. uh and you know whether and I'll bring it into you know whether and I'll bring it into you know whether and I'll bring it into you know the the legal sphere you know you know the the legal sphere you know you know the the legal sphere you know prosecutors dealing with these uh cases prosecutors dealing with these uh cases prosecutors dealing with these uh cases um it's difficult right also from a um it's difficult right also from a um it's difficult right also from a defense standpoint where you're you're defense standpoint where you're you're defense standpoint where you're you're defending someone who's alleged to have defending someone who's alleged to have defending someone who's alleged to have committed certain things like this and committed certain things like this and committed certain things like this and I'm not talking about any specific case I'm not talking about any specific case I'm not talking about any specific case uh but just in general it's difficult uh but just in general it's difficult uh but just in general it's difficult also because you're you know also because you're you know also because you're you know >> you don't want to hear about children >> you don't want to hear about children >> you don't want to hear about children suffering right suffering right suffering right >> adults also but it's itri strikes a >> adults also but it's itri strikes a >> adults also but it's itri strikes a different nerve when you hear about different nerve when you hear about different nerve when you hear about children suffering at the hands of their children suffering at the hands of their children suffering at the hands of their mother or father or loved ones. It makes mother or father or loved ones. It makes mother or father or loved ones. It makes it all the more difficult because it all the more difficult because it all the more difficult because they're helpless. You know, they these they're helpless. You know, they these they're helpless. You know, they these are the people that they trust uh and are the people that they trust uh and are the people that they trust uh and that they rely on and now they're that they rely on and now they're that they rely on and now they're hurting them. Uh and it's just it's hurting them. Uh and it's just it's hurting them. Uh and it's just it's horrific to hear and as we hear these horrific to hear and as we hear these horrific to hear and as we hear these facts about this case um it's it's facts about this case um it's it's facts about this case um it's it's really hard to hear. really hard to hear. really hard to hear. >> Oh, it's and it gets worse. I mean, I >> Oh, it's and it gets worse. I mean, I >> Oh, it's and it gets worse. I mean, I don't I don't even know.

don't I don't even know. don't I don't even know. it can't be couched. And and I do give it can't be couched. And and I do give it can't be couched. And and I do give the police chief a lot of credit. He the police chief a lot of credit. He the police chief a lot of credit. He said, you know, I really want to be as said, you know, I really want to be as said, you know, I really want to be as transparent as I can, but I also want to transparent as I can, but I also want to transparent as I can, but I also want to reserve some of this from reserve some of this from reserve some of this from for the sake of the victims because for the sake of the victims because for the sake of the victims because I guess it's his way of saying here's I guess it's his way of saying here's I guess it's his way of saying here's what you need to know and the rest of it what you need to know and the rest of it what you need to know and the rest of it is so dark. Do we really need to discuss is so dark. Do we really need to discuss is so dark. Do we really need to discuss this? And I kind of agree with him. you this? And I kind of agree with him. you this? And I kind of agree with him. you know, there's this how how much darker know, there's this how how much darker know, there's this how how much darker can dark be, right? How much more evil can dark be, right? How much more evil can dark be, right? How much more evil can evil be? And we already got to that can evil be? And we already got to that can evil be? And we already got to that point. point. point. >> So, on Grandma's phone, there were >> So, on Grandma's phone, there were >> So, on Grandma's phone, there were searches that she was looking for um searches that she was looking for um searches that she was looking for um medical reactions, the effects of medical reactions, the effects of medical reactions, the effects of insulin on non-diabetics, and that she insulin on non-diabetics, and that she insulin on non-diabetics, and that she allegedly searched the most fatal place allegedly searched the most fatal place allegedly searched the most fatal place to stab someone, and how to find an to stab someone, and how to find an to stab someone, and how to find an artery. artery. artery. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, of course, investigators have So, of course, investigators have So, of course, investigators have concluded these children were concluded these children were concluded these children were intentionally lethally poisoned and intentionally lethally poisoned and intentionally lethally poisoned and stabbed. There's no argument here. Now, stabbed. There's no argument here. Now, stabbed. There's no argument here. Now, let's also talk about the other let's also talk about the other let's also talk about the other information that was gathered because, information that was gathered because, information that was gathered because, as I said, these notes are very, very as I said, these notes are very, very as I said, these notes are very, very revealing. So, the earliest pieces of revealing. So, the earliest pieces of revealing. So, the earliest pieces of evidence would be these handwritten evidence would be these handwritten evidence would be these handwritten notes that police found at the crime notes that police found at the crime notes that police found at the crime scene. And the first one from Amy scene. And the first one from Amy scene. And the first one from Amy Steedman, that would be the grandmother.

Steedman, that would be the grandmother. Steedman, that would be the grandmother. According to Chief Rabbit, the According to Chief Rabbit, the According to Chief Rabbit, the grandmother took full responsibility. grandmother took full responsibility. grandmother took full responsibility. Oh, big of her. I'm just like, really? Oh, big of her. I'm just like, really? Oh, big of her. I'm just like, really? She takes full responsibility for all She takes full responsibility for all She takes full responsibility for all this. I don't understand. Does she think this. I don't understand. Does she think this. I don't understand. Does she think that that's going to get her soul into that that's going to get her soul into that that's going to get her soul into heaven? Cuz those doors are locked. She heaven? Cuz those doors are locked. She heaven? Cuz those doors are locked. She is not getting in and neither is that is not getting in and neither is that is not getting in and neither is that daughter of hers. Okay. So, she claims daughter of hers. Okay. So, she claims daughter of hers. Okay. So, she claims full responsibility and then she said full responsibility and then she said full responsibility and then she said that it was necessary to protect the that it was necessary to protect the that it was necessary to protect the children from alleged abuse. Okay. And children from alleged abuse. Okay. And children from alleged abuse. Okay. And then the grandma defends the children's then the grandma defends the children's then the grandma defends the children's mother saying she did everything she mother saying she did everything she mother saying she did everything she could to protect these children. Really? could to protect these children. Really? could to protect these children. Really? I don't think so. That's a lot of detail I don't think so. That's a lot of detail I don't think so. That's a lot of detail right there. I mean, it's it's almost as right there. I mean, it's it's almost as right there. I mean, it's it's almost as if the case notes have been written for if the case notes have been written for if the case notes have been written for you. you. you. >> Yeah. you know, this isn't a who done it >> Yeah. you know, this isn't a who done it >> Yeah. you know, this isn't a who done it to begin with, but now you have the to begin with, but now you have the to begin with, but now you have the perpetrators filling in the gaps, right? perpetrators filling in the gaps, right? perpetrators filling in the gaps, right? Uh and you know, at least we're getting Uh and you know, at least we're getting Uh and you know, at least we're getting some picture of to how and why this some picture of to how and why this some picture of to how and why this occurred, right? I mean, it's it's a occurred, right? I mean, it's it's a occurred, right? I mean, it's it's a tragedy and these lives are lost. Uh but tragedy and these lives are lost. Uh but tragedy and these lives are lost. Uh but that very human reaction of wanting to that very human reaction of wanting to that very human reaction of wanting to know why and how. um at least we're know why and how. um at least we're know why and how. um at least we're getting that and law enforcement is is getting that and law enforcement is is getting that and law enforcement is is receiving that information. Uh so they receiving that information. Uh so they receiving that information. Uh so they could sort of have their investigation.

could sort of have their investigation. could sort of have their investigation. This is not going to be a legal This is not going to be a legal This is not going to be a legal proceeding as we talked about. Uh but proceeding as we talked about. Uh but proceeding as we talked about. Uh but you know the details that we have here you know the details that we have here you know the details that we have here and these handwritten notes u the the and these handwritten notes u the the and these handwritten notes u the the shows the horrible you know shows the horrible you know shows the horrible you know premeditation and planning of what was premeditation and planning of what was premeditation and planning of what was going here um we try kind of get what's going here um we try kind of get what's going here um we try kind of get what's going on in these people's minds you going on in these people's minds you going on in these people's minds you know as sick as it is. Uh but you know know as sick as it is. Uh but you know know as sick as it is. Uh but you know they've left us yeah like a trail if you they've left us yeah like a trail if you they've left us yeah like a trail if you will uh to follow uh within their own will uh to follow uh within their own will uh to follow uh within their own words and it's their own words their own words and it's their own words their own words and it's their own words their own actions uh and their own research right actions uh and their own research right actions uh and their own research right of how to do this uh which makes it all of how to do this uh which makes it all of how to do this uh which makes it all the more chilling. the more chilling. the more chilling. >> Mhm. And everything is timestamped >> Mhm. And everything is timestamped >> Mhm. And everything is timestamped because the receipts, the surveillance because the receipts, the surveillance because the receipts, the surveillance security cameras also along with the um security cameras also along with the um security cameras also along with the um date stamp, you know, and the time stamp date stamp, you know, and the time stamp date stamp, you know, and the time stamp for the text messages tells you where for the text messages tells you where for the text messages tells you where they were at each point. So that in they were at each point. So that in they were at each point. So that in itself is so is so chilling. So, the itself is so is so chilling. So, the itself is so is so chilling. So, the police chief goes on to say that based police chief goes on to say that based police chief goes on to say that based on the text messages between the on the text messages between the on the text messages between the grandmother and the mother, um, this grandmother and the mother, um, this grandmother and the mother, um, this really showed police what the plan was really showed police what the plan was really showed police what the plan was and how it was unfolding. Unbelievable and how it was unfolding. Unbelievable and how it was unfolding. Unbelievable that they had to be done administering that they had to be done administering that they had to be done administering the poisons by noon. So, they for sure the poisons by noon. So, they for sure the poisons by noon. So, they for sure would be dead by the time the dad called would be dead by the time the dad called would be dead by the time the dad called at 6.

at 6. at 6. >> Yeah, it's haunting that timeline, the >> Yeah, it's haunting that timeline, the >> Yeah, it's haunting that timeline, the discussion, right? and they're having discussion, right? and they're having discussion, right? and they're having this discussion in text messages and this discussion in text messages and this discussion in text messages and whatnot because they they don't care uh whatnot because they they don't care uh whatnot because they they don't care uh in their minds are going to be dead in their minds are going to be dead in their minds are going to be dead themselves, right? So, it's not like themselves, right? So, it's not like themselves, right? So, it's not like they're trying to uh you know commit a they're trying to uh you know commit a they're trying to uh you know commit a crime and then you know bury the crime and then you know bury the crime and then you know bury the evidence uh after the fact. There's evidence uh after the fact. There's evidence uh after the fact. There's really a a bold discussion going on really a a bold discussion going on really a a bold discussion going on here. Um they have a plan. They're here. Um they have a plan. They're here. Um they have a plan. They're they're very intent on carrying out that they're very intent on carrying out that they're very intent on carrying out that that plan. They have the methodology and that plan. They have the methodology and that plan. They have the methodology and they have the timing, right? So, it's they have the timing, right? So, it's they have the timing, right? So, it's haunting. It's even more haunting when haunting. It's even more haunting when haunting. It's even more haunting when you think about it's the mother and the you think about it's the mother and the you think about it's the mother and the grandmother uh and the children and what grandmother uh and the children and what grandmother uh and the children and what they're going to tell the children to they're going to tell the children to they're going to tell the children to avoid suspicion and things like that. avoid suspicion and things like that. avoid suspicion and things like that. It's really evil. It's really evil. It It's really evil. It's really evil. It It's really evil. It's really evil. It shows the malice here uh and the conduct shows the malice here uh and the conduct shows the malice here uh and the conduct here. Um but you know, here we have here. Um but you know, here we have here. Um but you know, here we have these details again filling in the gaps. these details again filling in the gaps. these details again filling in the gaps. And I like the fact that law enforcement And I like the fact that law enforcement And I like the fact that law enforcement is holding things back, right? You know, is holding things back, right? You know, is holding things back, right? You know, we as the public, we we we want to know we as the public, we we we want to know we as the public, we we we want to know these things. there's the right to these things. there's the right to these things. there's the right to access to justice and the justice access to justice and the justice access to justice and the justice system, but that's closed. It's closed system, but that's closed. It's closed system, but that's closed. It's closed here, right? You know, you know, there's here, right? You know, you know, there's here, right? You know, you know, there's it's not like there's going to be a it's not like there's going to be a it's not like there's going to be a trial where we get, you know, the the trial where we get, you know, the the trial where we get, you know, the the public has a right to observe, you know, public has a right to observe, you know, public has a right to observe, you know, all these facts. There's some measure of all these facts. There's some measure of all these facts. There's some measure of of of keeping things confidential here.

of of keeping things confidential here. of of keeping things confidential here. you know, people could do, you know, you know, people could do, you know, you know, people could do, you know, Freedom of Information Act requests and Freedom of Information Act requests and Freedom of Information Act requests and ultimately get it. But at least as far ultimately get it. But at least as far ultimately get it. But at least as far as, you know, law enforcement uh in as, you know, law enforcement uh in as, you know, law enforcement uh in terms of their public statements, terms of their public statements, terms of their public statements, they're keeping some of things guarded they're keeping some of things guarded they're keeping some of things guarded uh out of sensitivity u you know, for uh out of sensitivity u you know, for uh out of sensitivity u you know, for you know, the victims here, you know, you know, the victims here, you know, you know, the victims here, you know, those who don't have a voice anymore uh those who don't have a voice anymore uh those who don't have a voice anymore uh to you know, call out for help or seek to you know, call out for help or seek to you know, call out for help or seek justice for themselves, right? So, uh justice for themselves, right? So, uh justice for themselves, right? So, uh you know, you're getting these facts um you know, you're getting these facts um you know, you're getting these facts um and I'm sure we're going to hear more and I'm sure we're going to hear more and I'm sure we're going to hear more facts uh to come. Uh, but it fills in facts uh to come. Uh, but it fills in facts uh to come. Uh, but it fills in the gap and it just makes this all the the gap and it just makes this all the the gap and it just makes this all the more chilling and haunting when you more chilling and haunting when you more chilling and haunting when you think about what happened. think about what happened. think about what happened. >> Oh, it really is. It's so disturbing. >> Oh, it really is. It's so disturbing. >> Oh, it really is. It's so disturbing. Now, this next part I really want to Now, this next part I really want to Now, this next part I really want to kind of go through with you as a former kind of go through with you as a former kind of go through with you as a former prosecutor. So, investigators say that prosecutor. So, investigators say that prosecutor. So, investigators say that they recovered all sorts of electronic they recovered all sorts of electronic they recovered all sorts of electronic files and that the mother was keeping files and that the mother was keeping files and that the mother was keeping and that they included photographs that and that they included photographs that and that they included photographs that appeared to show injuries to her and to appeared to show injuries to her and to appeared to show injuries to her and to some of the children along with messages some of the children along with messages some of the children along with messages and other material containing abuse and other material containing abuse and other material containing abuse allegations.

allegations. allegations. The father, you know, Brady Harmon has The father, you know, Brady Harmon has The father, you know, Brady Harmon has denied abusing Meyers or the children. denied abusing Meyers or the children. denied abusing Meyers or the children. So, I mean, we know what the chief has So, I mean, we know what the chief has So, I mean, we know what the chief has said already that they've investigated said already that they've investigated said already that they've investigated it, but they can't cooperate it. So, it, but they can't cooperate it. So, it, but they can't cooperate it. So, what can they do? Like, what do you do what can they do? Like, what do you do what can they do? Like, what do you do with this? Because I mean, I don't know with this? Because I mean, I don't know with this? Because I mean, I don't know what those photos allegedly show, but what those photos allegedly show, but what those photos allegedly show, but how can I put this? It It does add some how can I put this? It It does add some how can I put this? It It does add some substance, if you will, to the mother substance, if you will, to the mother substance, if you will, to the mother and grandmother's allegations. If and grandmother's allegations. If and grandmother's allegations. If there's something more than just an there's something more than just an there's something more than just an allegation, there may be some alleged allegation, there may be some alleged allegation, there may be some alleged proof, which of course the father proof, which of course the father proof, which of course the father denies. denies. denies. >> Yeah. I mean, that's not going to go >> Yeah. I mean, that's not going to go >> Yeah. I mean, that's not going to go anywhere um in terms of, you know, if anywhere um in terms of, you know, if anywhere um in terms of, you know, if there's anything for the father to be there's anything for the father to be there's anything for the father to be prosecuted for anything like that, you prosecuted for anything like that, you prosecuted for anything like that, you know, based on allegations. And I think know, based on allegations. And I think know, based on allegations. And I think from what we hear, it doesn't sound like from what we hear, it doesn't sound like from what we hear, it doesn't sound like anything that may have been recovered uh anything that may have been recovered uh anything that may have been recovered uh rises to that level uh or can be rises to that level uh or can be rises to that level uh or can be necessarily pinned on the father necessarily pinned on the father necessarily pinned on the father particularly. You know, I'm there's some particularly. You know, I'm there's some particularly. You know, I'm there's some speculation I'm doing here. Uh but if speculation I'm doing here. Uh but if speculation I'm doing here. Uh but if there was something as egregious as say there was something as egregious as say there was something as egregious as say videos of the actual act of abuse, then videos of the actual act of abuse, then videos of the actual act of abuse, then maybe there would be some accountability maybe there would be some accountability maybe there would be some accountability in terms of law enforcement feeling that in terms of law enforcement feeling that in terms of law enforcement feeling that they have enough probable cause and they have enough probable cause and they have enough probable cause and evidence to pursue a prosecution or evidence to pursue a prosecution or evidence to pursue a prosecution or arrest after the fact, right? Um and arrest after the fact, right? Um and arrest after the fact, right? Um and then of course you have an an then of course you have an an then of course you have an an evidentiary problem or hurdle because evidentiary problem or hurdle because evidentiary problem or hurdle because then the victim would not be there, then the victim would not be there, then the victim would not be there, right? But the evidence would have to be right? But the evidence would have to be right? But the evidence would have to be so conclusive uh such as a video showing

so conclusive uh such as a video showing so conclusive uh such as a video showing the defendant and the victim who is now the defendant and the victim who is now the defendant and the victim who is now no longer here and the abuse that would no longer here and the abuse that would no longer here and the abuse that would satisfy the elements of crime uh to satisfy the elements of crime uh to satisfy the elements of crime uh to satisfy probable cause for arrest and satisfy probable cause for arrest and satisfy probable cause for arrest and ultimately a prosecution. I don't think ultimately a prosecution. I don't think ultimately a prosecution. I don't think that's here. Um you know I don't know that's here. Um you know I don't know that's here. Um you know I don't know what the allegations of abuse in what the allegations of abuse in what the allegations of abuse in particular are. Uh but right now you particular are. Uh but right now you particular are. Uh but right now you have to just think that this father have to just think that this father have to just think that this father deserves some opportunity to grieve the deserves some opportunity to grieve the deserves some opportunity to grieve the death of his children that he fought uh death of his children that he fought uh death of his children that he fought uh so hard to to see and to get some so hard to to see and to get some so hard to to see and to get some custody or visitation for. Right? So custody or visitation for. Right? So custody or visitation for. Right? So clearly this father had love and care clearly this father had love and care clearly this father had love and care for these children if he was you know for these children if he was you know for these children if he was you know fighting so hard to see them over these fighting so hard to see them over these fighting so hard to see them over these years. years. years. I also find it interesting that because I also find it interesting that because I also find it interesting that because the mother kept these alleged the mother kept these alleged the mother kept these alleged materials that allegedly show and I'm materials that allegedly show and I'm materials that allegedly show and I'm being very careful here because again being very careful here because again being very careful here because again nothing is proven and nothing is proven and nothing is proven and but the fact that she left these alleged but the fact that she left these alleged but the fact that she left these alleged materials she has now forever forced materials she has now forever forced materials she has now forever forced this conversation this conversation this conversation and this suspicion or black cloud over and this suspicion or black cloud over and this suspicion or black cloud over the father. Like that's her trail of the father. Like that's her trail of the father. Like that's her trail of terror terror terror includes taking him down this way where includes taking him down this way where includes taking him down this way where how can he ever prove the negative that how can he ever prove the negative that how can he ever prove the negative that as he says he didn't do anything wrong as he says he didn't do anything wrong as he says he didn't do anything wrong >> right and you know that's happening in >> right and you know that's happening in >> right and you know that's happening in this case it happens in other this case it happens in other this case it happens in other circumstances you know proving the

circumstances you know proving the circumstances you know proving the negative how are you going to do it uh negative how are you going to do it uh negative how are you going to do it uh and if the ultimate goal was uh of the and if the ultimate goal was uh of the and if the ultimate goal was uh of the mother was to somehow hurt the father uh mother was to somehow hurt the father uh mother was to somehow hurt the father uh and leave sort of a braille of question and leave sort of a braille of question and leave sort of a braille of question marks after with her allegations here um marks after with her allegations here um marks after with her allegations here um then she's perhaps succeeded but no then she's perhaps succeeded but no then she's perhaps succeeded but no matter what that's shadowed and matter what that's shadowed and matter what that's shadowed and overshadowed I should say um by the overshadowed I should say um by the overshadowed I should say um by the heinous act that she took you know if heinous act that she took you know if heinous act that she took you know if you are worried about uh abuse and your you are worried about uh abuse and your you are worried about uh abuse and your children being harmed right based on the children being harmed right based on the children being harmed right based on the allegations she made um you don't do the allegations she made um you don't do the allegations she made um you don't do the ultimate harm to your children by taking ultimate harm to your children by taking ultimate harm to your children by taking their lives right it it you know it just their lives right it it you know it just their lives right it it you know it just doesn't add up. Uh so, you know, the doesn't add up. Uh so, you know, the doesn't add up. Uh so, you know, the allegations she's made against the allegations she's made against the allegations she's made against the father, you know, he's denied it in the father, you know, he's denied it in the father, you know, he's denied it in the press. Uh and you know, he's facing that press. Uh and you know, he's facing that press. Uh and you know, he's facing that and perhaps unfairly he's facing those and perhaps unfairly he's facing those and perhaps unfairly he's facing those allegations uh as he's trying to mourn allegations uh as he's trying to mourn allegations uh as he's trying to mourn his children uh and and really dealing his children uh and and really dealing his children uh and and really dealing with as a parent, the the most, you with as a parent, the the most, you with as a parent, the the most, you know, the thing that no parent wants to know, the thing that no parent wants to know, the thing that no parent wants to hear. Uh and your children are dead. And hear. Uh and your children are dead. And hear. Uh and your children are dead. And then coupled with that at the hands of then coupled with that at the hands of then coupled with that at the hands of their mother um you know or and their mother um you know or and their mother um you know or and grandmother is just you know something grandmother is just you know something grandmother is just you know something that he's going to have to deal with.

that he's going to have to deal with. that he's going to have to deal with. But I don't think legally it's going to But I don't think legally it's going to But I don't think legally it's going to go anywhere. go anywhere. go anywhere. >> Mhm. So his intention was of course to >> Mhm. So his intention was of course to >> Mhm. So his intention was of course to pick up his children and take them to pick up his children and take them to pick up his children and take them to Utah. But the way this case ends, he Utah. But the way this case ends, he Utah. But the way this case ends, he takes their remains back to Utah. and he takes their remains back to Utah. and he takes their remains back to Utah. and he has spread their ashes in a place that has spread their ashes in a place that has spread their ashes in a place that is special to him and I believe a place is special to him and I believe a place is special to him and I believe a place that he also spread his own father's that he also spread his own father's that he also spread his own father's ashes I read. So I hope that wherever ashes I read. So I hope that wherever ashes I read. So I hope that wherever these children are on the wings of these children are on the wings of these children are on the wings of angels may their souls rest and find angels may their souls rest and find angels may their souls rest and find peace. [sighs] peace. [sighs] peace. [sighs] [gasps] [gasps] [gasps] I'm so disgusted by this case. I'm so I'm so disgusted by this case. I'm so I'm so disgusted by this case. I'm so disgusted by this. disgusted by this. disgusted by this. >> Yeah. No, absolutely. It's it's >> Yeah. No, absolutely. It's it's >> Yeah. No, absolutely. It's it's horrific. Um, and then again, you know, horrific. Um, and then again, you know, horrific. Um, and then again, you know, legally there's not going to be closure, legally there's not going to be closure, legally there's not going to be closure, but I hope uh there's, you know, some but I hope uh there's, you know, some but I hope uh there's, you know, some closure uh with the father in in in, you closure uh with the father in in in, you closure uh with the father in in in, you know, the act what you just said. But I know, the act what you just said. But I know, the act what you just said. But I can't imagine, right, how how could can't imagine, right, how how could can't imagine, right, how how could there ever be closure? This is something there ever be closure? This is something there ever be closure? This is something so horrific uh that he's going to be so horrific uh that he's going to be so horrific uh that he's going to be living with that pain most likely for living with that pain most likely for living with that pain most likely for the rest of his lives. And then that the rest of his lives. And then that the rest of his lives. And then that yes, who who knows what these children yes, who who knows what these children yes, who who knows what these children were capable of in their in their life were capable of in their in their life were capable of in their in their life of what they could have achieved. That's of what they could have achieved. That's of what they could have achieved. That's all taken from them. And again that's all taken from them. And again that's all taken from them. And again that's that that chilling fact and what why you that that chilling fact and what why you that that chilling fact and what why you know the public really looks at these know the public really looks at these know the public really looks at these sort of cases of infanticide with such sort of cases of infanticide with such sort of cases of infanticide with such you know uh with such you know curiosity you know uh with such you know curiosity you know uh with such you know curiosity uh and concern and shock and horror uh uh and concern and shock and horror uh uh and concern and shock and horror uh when it's at the hands of the mother when it's at the hands of the mother when it's at the hands of the mother right the mother who carried these right the mother who carried these right the mother who carried these children uh you know uh you know during

children uh you know uh you know during children uh you know uh you know during you know pregnancy who was there who you know pregnancy who was there who you know pregnancy who was there who should have been there uh to support should have been there uh to support should have been there uh to support them and raise them and see them you them and raise them and see them you them and raise them and see them you know blossom them into adults uh to end know blossom them into adults uh to end know blossom them into adults uh to end their lives, you know, so tragically and their lives, you know, so tragically and their lives, you know, so tragically and so early is something that, you know, so early is something that, you know, so early is something that, you know, the public we never could really imagine the public we never could really imagine the public we never could really imagine uh or grasp uh you know, or really take uh or grasp uh you know, or really take uh or grasp uh you know, or really take in and really see why something so in and really see why something so in and really see why something so horrific horrific horrific uh was done. uh was done. uh was done. >> Well, this has been a pleasure and I >> Well, this has been a pleasure and I >> Well, this has been a pleasure and I feel like Josh has been keeping you from feel like Josh has been keeping you from feel like Josh has been keeping you from us [laughter] on his podcast. I hope us [laughter] on his podcast. I hope us [laughter] on his podcast. I hope that you come back again. that you come back again. that you come back again. >> Oh, I would love to. It was a good time. >> Oh, I would love to. It was a good time. >> Oh, I would love to. It was a good time. >> It was a good time. A good time was >> It was a good time. A good time was >> It was a good time. A good time was >> not not the case that matter, but to be >> not not the case that matter, but to be >> not not the case that matter, but to be here with you, Anna, and discuss cases. here with you, Anna, and discuss cases. here with you, Anna, and discuss cases. So, hopefully uh you'll have me back. So, hopefully uh you'll have me back. So, hopefully uh you'll have me back. >> So, where can people find you if they >> So, where can people find you if they >> So, where can people find you if they want to follow you on social media? want to follow you on social media? want to follow you on social media? >> Sure. You could go to Instagram and it's >> Sure. You could go to Instagram and it's >> Sure. You could go to Instagram and it's Iron Ansari ESQ. Iron Ansari ESQ. Iron Ansari ESQ. >> Excellent. We love the ESQ. You can find >> Excellent. We love the ESQ. You can find >> Excellent. We love the ESQ. You can find me at an News uh with one N. You can me at an News uh with one N. You can me at an News uh with one N. You can find everything that we do at True Crime find everything that we do at True Crime find everything that we do at True Crime News. Um that's our handle, my true News. Um that's our handle, my true News. Um that's our handle, my true crime news. Pretty easy. Uh you can go crime news. Pretty easy. Uh you can go crime news. Pretty easy. Uh you can go to true crimenews.com.

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