Jury deliberates Lindsay Clancy’s fate; Woman accused of fatally shooting real estate agent

Hello and welcome to the sidebar Hello and welcome to the sidebar presented by True Crime News taking you presented by True Crime News taking you presented by True Crime News taking you inside the courtrooms of high-profile inside the courtrooms of high-profile inside the courtrooms of high-profile and notorious cases from across the and notorious cases from across the and notorious cases from across the country. I'm your host Joshua Ritter. country. I'm your host Joshua Ritter. country. I'm your host Joshua Ritter. I'm a criminal defense lawyer based in I'm a criminal defense lawyer based in I'm a criminal defense lawyer based in Los Angeles and previously an LA County Los Angeles and previously an LA County Los Angeles and previously an LA County prosecutor for over a decade. We are prosecutor for over a decade. We are prosecutor for over a decade. We are recording this on Wednesday, August recording this on Wednesday, August recording this on Wednesday, August 26th, 2026. In this week's episode, a 26th, 2026. In this week's episode, a 26th, 2026. In this week's episode, a cold case indictment that attorneys want cold case indictment that attorneys want cold case indictment that attorneys want thrown out 15 years after the fatal thrown out 15 years after the fatal thrown out 15 years after the fatal shooting of a Des Moines real estate shooting of a Des Moines real estate shooting of a Des Moines real estate agent. Plus another long unsolved murder agent. Plus another long unsolved murder agent. Plus another long unsolved murder case unfolds with additional testimony case unfolds with additional testimony case unfolds with additional testimony against Dwayne Davis in the killing of against Dwayne Davis in the killing of against Dwayne Davis in the killing of Tupac Shakur. But first, Lindsay Tupac Shakur. But first, Lindsay Tupac Shakur. But first, Lindsay Clancy's case heads to the hands of the Clancy's case heads to the hands of the Clancy's case heads to the hands of the jury as the triple murder trial nears jury as the triple murder trial nears jury as the triple murder trial nears its end. I'm flying solo today, so let's its end. I'm flying solo today, so let's its end. I'm flying solo today, so let's go ahead and jump right in. First, out go ahead and jump right in. First, out go ahead and jump right in. First, out of Plymouth, Massachusetts, the fate of of Plymouth, Massachusetts, the fate of of Plymouth, Massachusetts, the fate of a mother charged with strangling her a mother charged with strangling her a mother charged with strangling her three children will soon rest with the three children will soon rest with the three children will soon rest with the jury after the conclusion of witness jury after the conclusion of witness jury after the conclusion of witness testimony this week. Lindsay Clancy testimony this week. Lindsay Clancy testimony this week. Lindsay Clancy doesn't dispute her part in the slaying doesn't dispute her part in the slaying doesn't dispute her part in the slaying of her kids, Cora, Dawson, and Callan, of her kids, Cora, Dawson, and Callan, of her kids, Cora, Dawson, and Callan, but maintains that she was suffering but maintains that she was suffering but maintains that she was suffering from psychosis at the time. Will from psychosis at the time. Will from psychosis at the time. Will Clancy's mental health struggles and Clancy's mental health struggles and Clancy's mental health struggles and pleas for help from medical pleas for help from medical pleas for help from medical professionals convince jurors that the professionals convince jurors that the professionals convince jurors that the mother was unconscious of her actions or mother was unconscious of her actions or mother was unconscious of her actions or will jurors be swayed by prosecutors' will jurors be swayed by prosecutors' will jurors be swayed by prosecutors' arguments that Clancy enacted the murder arguments that Clancy enacted the murder arguments that Clancy enacted the murder with cold, calculated malice. Both sides with cold, calculated malice. Both sides with cold, calculated malice. Both sides presented conflicting testimony from presented conflicting testimony from presented conflicting testimony from experts who alternately asserted their experts who alternately asserted their experts who alternately asserted their opinions on the mother's sanity or lack opinions on the mother's sanity or lack opinions on the mother's sanity or lack thereof. Now, the experts will be out of thereof. Now, the experts will be out of thereof. Now, the experts will be out of the room as 12 regular people try to

the room as 12 regular people try to the room as 12 regular people try to make sense of the devastating tragedy make sense of the devastating tragedy make sense of the devastating tragedy that has shocked the nation. that has shocked the nation. that has shocked the nation. That last part, I think, is the part That last part, I think, is the part That last part, I think, is the part that makes this already difficult case that makes this already difficult case that makes this already difficult case so much more difficult for jurors. Think so much more difficult for jurors. Think so much more difficult for jurors. Think about what these poor people are going about what these poor people are going about what these poor people are going through. I'm talking about the people through. I'm talking about the people through. I'm talking about the people who are sitting on this jury. First, you who are sitting on this jury. First, you who are sitting on this jury. First, you have a case that is incredibly have a case that is incredibly have a case that is incredibly emotionally charged. You've got on one emotionally charged. You've got on one emotionally charged. You've got on one side a defendant who has suffered side a defendant who has suffered side a defendant who has suffered through mental health crises. Uh she through mental health crises. Uh she through mental health crises. Uh she struggled to get help. She even got to struggled to get help. She even got to struggled to get help. She even got to the point where she wanted to take her the point where she wanted to take her the point where she wanted to take her own life. And she sits in court as a own life. And she sits in court as a own life. And she sits in court as a mother who has killed her own children mother who has killed her own children mother who has killed her own children and now sits there paralyzed for the and now sits there paralyzed for the and now sits there paralyzed for the rest of her life. rest of her life. rest of her life. And on the other side, you have those And on the other side, you have those And on the other side, you have those three dead children who lost their lives three dead children who lost their lives three dead children who lost their lives in an incredibly nightmarish and tragic in an incredibly nightmarish and tragic in an incredibly nightmarish and tragic way. This case is one of those cases way. This case is one of those cases way. This case is one of those cases where these jurors, no matter what where these jurors, no matter what where these jurors, no matter what decision they make, and they know this, decision they make, and they know this, decision they make, and they know this, no matter what decision they make, no matter what decision they make, no matter what decision they make, they're going to live with it for the they're going to live with it for the they're going to live with it for the rest of their lives. It's probably going rest of their lives. It's probably going rest of their lives. It's probably going to be in the back of their mind for the to be in the back of their mind for the to be in the back of their mind for the rest of their lives how this thing came rest of their lives how this thing came rest of their lives how this thing came to a conclusion.

to a conclusion. to a conclusion. And then add to that And then add to that And then add to that that they're not being asked the that they're not being asked the that they're not being asked the question of did Lindsay Clancy do it or question of did Lindsay Clancy do it or question of did Lindsay Clancy do it or not. They're being asked a far more not. They're being asked a far more not. They're being asked a far more nuanced question of she's already nuanced question of she's already nuanced question of she's already admitted to doing it. Now, what was admitted to doing it. Now, what was admitted to doing it. Now, what was going on inside of her head when she did going on inside of her head when she did going on inside of her head when she did it? And to aid them in all of that are it? And to aid them in all of that are it? And to aid them in all of that are experts. Experts testifying to an experts. Experts testifying to an experts. Experts testifying to an incredibly esoteric and rare mental incredibly esoteric and rare mental incredibly esoteric and rare mental health illness. Ment- uh health illness. Ment- uh health illness. Ment- uh postpartum depression, we have learned, postpartum depression, we have learned, postpartum depression, we have learned, is something that afflicts many women. is something that afflicts many women. is something that afflicts many women. It is very common. It is very common. It is very common. Postpartum psychosis is incredibly rare. Postpartum psychosis is incredibly rare. Postpartum psychosis is incredibly rare. Something that many of the testifying Something that many of the testifying Something that many of the testifying physicians and experts have never physicians and experts have never physicians and experts have never experienced in their entire careers. experienced in their entire careers. experienced in their entire careers. And on that topic, that incredibly rare And on that topic, that incredibly rare And on that topic, that incredibly rare topic, you have experts topic, you have experts topic, you have experts who are as equally qualified on both who are as equally qualified on both who are as equally qualified on both sides giving diametrically opposed sides giving diametrically opposed sides giving diametrically opposed opinions. And it's up to these jurors to opinions. And it's up to these jurors to opinions. And it's up to these jurors to decide which of those opinions is more decide which of those opinions is more decide which of those opinions is more reasonable.

reasonable. reasonable. Many cases, Many cases, Many cases, we talk about them we talk about them we talk about them a battle of the experts. This case is a battle of the experts. This case is a battle of the experts. This case is really truly an example of that. really truly an example of that. really truly an example of that. You're not concerned with the evidence You're not concerned with the evidence You're not concerned with the evidence telling you whether or not something telling you whether or not something telling you whether or not something happened. You're not concerned with the happened. You're not concerned with the happened. You're not concerned with the evidence telling you whether or not a evidence telling you whether or not a evidence telling you whether or not a person was the person who committed that person was the person who committed that person was the person who committed that crime. crime. crime. You are coming down to You are coming down to You are coming down to what do I believe on a topic I know what do I believe on a topic I know what do I believe on a topic I know nothing about? What is the more nothing about? What is the more nothing about? What is the more reasonable interpretation reasonable interpretation reasonable interpretation of the evidence? of the evidence? of the evidence? And they're just going to have to decide And they're just going to have to decide And they're just going to have to decide which of those experts are more which of those experts are more which of those experts are more reliable. The other thing that's unique reliable. The other thing that's unique reliable. The other thing that's unique about this trial about this trial about this trial is that I really feel it's going to come is that I really feel it's going to come is that I really feel it's going to come down to perhaps closing arguments. down to perhaps closing arguments. down to perhaps closing arguments. Rarely in a trial Rarely in a trial Rarely in a trial does it come down to closing arguments. does it come down to closing arguments. does it come down to closing arguments. As much as we talk about closing As much as we talk about closing As much as we talk about closing arguments being important and trial arguments being important and trial arguments being important and trial advocacy and the experience and the um advocacy and the experience and the um advocacy and the experience and the um charisma of an attorney being important, charisma of an attorney being important, charisma of an attorney being important, all of that is true. all of that is true. all of that is true. But for the most part, jurors who have But for the most part, jurors who have But for the most part, jurors who have sat through weeks-long presentations of sat through weeks-long presentations of sat through weeks-long presentations of evidence have made up their minds. It's evidence have made up their minds. It's evidence have made up their minds. It's true. They're told to wait, but they true. They're told to wait, but they true. They're told to wait, but they make up their minds. They know where make up their minds. They know where make up their minds. They know where they're leaning at least.

they're leaning at least. they're leaning at least. In this case, though, In this case, though, In this case, though, I really feel like they're going to need I really feel like they're going to need I really feel like they're going to need someone to convince them and that might someone to convince them and that might someone to convince them and that might be up to the very end in those closing be up to the very end in those closing be up to the very end in those closing arguments. What are they going to arguments. What are they going to arguments. What are they going to believe? Whose believe? Whose believe? Whose interpretation of the facts and whose interpretation of the facts and whose interpretation of the facts and whose presentation of expert opinions was presentation of expert opinions was presentation of expert opinions was better and easier perhaps for them to better and easier perhaps for them to better and easier perhaps for them to grasp in those final moments. And then grasp in those final moments. And then grasp in those final moments. And then take all of that and try to come up with take all of that and try to come up with take all of that and try to come up with a decision that they feel like they can a decision that they feel like they can a decision that they feel like they can actually with live with. actually with live with. actually with live with. How do I think this is actually going to How do I think this is actually going to How do I think this is actually going to end, though? end, though? end, though? I don't think I don't think I don't think this is one of those cases where I want this is one of those cases where I want this is one of those cases where I want to kind of come away with my calling the to kind of come away with my calling the to kind of come away with my calling the shot on it. Like, shot on it. Like, shot on it. Like, do I think it'll be a guilty or do I do I think it'll be a guilty or do I do I think it'll be a guilty or do I think it'll be a not guilty? think it'll be a not guilty? think it'll be a not guilty? Quite honestly, I think probably Quite honestly, I think probably Quite honestly, I think probably the result with the greatest likelihood the result with the greatest likelihood the result with the greatest likelihood is a hung jury. is a hung jury. is a hung jury. Because Because Because this is a case that many people are this is a case that many people are this is a case that many people are talking about. Talk to your friends.

talking about. Talk to your friends. talking about. Talk to your friends. How many of them How many of them How many of them struggle with this case? struggle with this case? struggle with this case? I know that most people I'm talking with I know that most people I'm talking with I know that most people I'm talking with don't have a clear position on this don't have a clear position on this don't have a clear position on this thing. They go back and forth. I go back thing. They go back and forth. I go back thing. They go back and forth. I go back and forth on whether or not I believe and forth on whether or not I believe and forth on whether or not I believe this is a woman who really suffered and this is a woman who really suffered and this is a woman who really suffered and just got a raw deal and was put on a just got a raw deal and was put on a just got a raw deal and was put on a collision course with disaster, or if I collision course with disaster, or if I collision course with disaster, or if I feel in spite of all of that, she still feel in spite of all of that, she still feel in spite of all of that, she still understood that murder was wrong in understood that murder was wrong in understood that murder was wrong in those crucial moments. I go back and those crucial moments. I go back and those crucial moments. I go back and forth on this all the time. I imagine forth on this all the time. I imagine forth on this all the time. I imagine the jurors are, and I imagine you put 12 the jurors are, and I imagine you put 12 the jurors are, and I imagine you put 12 strangers in a room together, strangers in a room together, strangers in a room together, it's not going to be an easy decision it's not going to be an easy decision it's not going to be an easy decision for them to make. And here's something else I'll add to And here's something else I'll add to that, and this is not in the law. Sometimes Sometimes when a case when a case when a case is so difficult is so difficult is so difficult where no matter what the verdict, it's where no matter what the verdict, it's where no matter what the verdict, it's going to be difficult with those jurors going to be difficult with those jurors going to be difficult with those jurors to live with, to live with, to live with, a case where they know the consequences a case where they know the consequences a case where they know the consequences are going to be great on either side, are going to be great on either side, are going to be great on either side, that there's no clear that there's no clear that there's no clear bad person in all of this, bad person in all of this, bad person in all of this, sometimes jurors sometimes jurors sometimes jurors like the idea of there being no like the idea of there being no like the idea of there being no decision.

decision. decision. And they like the idea of that maybe And they like the idea of that maybe And they like the idea of that maybe becoming another jury's problem. becoming another jury's problem. becoming another jury's problem. And if they get to a point where they're And if they get to a point where they're And if they get to a point where they're hung, hung, hung, and this is not the way it should work, and this is not the way it should work, and this is not the way it should work, but this is the way that oftentimes does but this is the way that oftentimes does but this is the way that oftentimes does work, they get to a point where they work, they get to a point where they work, they get to a point where they feel like they're deadlocked, they're feel like they're deadlocked, they're feel like they're deadlocked, they're happy to tell the judge that. happy to tell the judge that. happy to tell the judge that. They're happy to say, "Your Honor, we They're happy to say, "Your Honor, we They're happy to say, "Your Honor, we just can't go any farther. just can't go any farther. just can't go any farther. Get us out of this. Let us go home Get us out of this. Let us go home Get us out of this. Let us go home without the weight of this without the weight of this without the weight of this sitting upon us for the rest of our sitting upon us for the rest of our sitting upon us for the rest of our lives with whatever decision we may lives with whatever decision we may lives with whatever decision we may make. Now, I I imagine the judge is make. Now, I I imagine the judge is make. Now, I I imagine the judge is prepared for that and will send them prepared for that and will send them prepared for that and will send them back into deliberate again. I just would back into deliberate again. I just would back into deliberate again. I just would not be shocked. I would be shocked, put not be shocked. I would be shocked, put not be shocked. I would be shocked, put it this way. I would be shocked if we it this way. I would be shocked if we it this way. I would be shocked if we get to the end of these deliberations get to the end of these deliberations get to the end of these deliberations and they haven't at least at one point and they haven't at least at one point and they haven't at least at one point indicated that they're deadlocked. We'll indicated that they're deadlocked. We'll indicated that they're deadlocked. We'll see how it all goes. We're going to see how it all goes. We're going to see how it all goes. We're going to continue to watch it as it goes uh continue to watch it as it goes uh continue to watch it as it goes uh quickly into deliberations this week. quickly into deliberations this week. quickly into deliberations this week. Let's move now to another case out of Let's move now to another case out of Let's move now to another case out of Adel, Iowa. Attorneys for the defendant Adel, Iowa. Attorneys for the defendant Adel, Iowa. Attorneys for the defendant charged in a 15-year-old murder are charged in a 15-year-old murder are charged in a 15-year-old murder are seeking a dismissal of the charges after seeking a dismissal of the charges after seeking a dismissal of the charges after alleged misconduct in the cold case.

alleged misconduct in the cold case. alleged misconduct in the cold case. Prosecutors charged Kristin Ramsey in Prosecutors charged Kristin Ramsey in Prosecutors charged Kristin Ramsey in the fatal shooting of Des Moines real the fatal shooting of Des Moines real the fatal shooting of Des Moines real estate agent Ashley Oakland after a estate agent Ashley Oakland after a estate agent Ashley Oakland after a renewed investigation into the 2011 renewed investigation into the 2011 renewed investigation into the 2011 slaying. Now, Ramsey's defense is slaying. Now, Ramsey's defense is slaying. Now, Ramsey's defense is seeking a dismissal of the charges seeking a dismissal of the charges seeking a dismissal of the charges claiming that prosecutors made multiple claiming that prosecutors made multiple claiming that prosecutors made multiple errors in presenting their case to the errors in presenting their case to the errors in presenting their case to the grand jury. Defense attorney Alfredo grand jury. Defense attorney Alfredo grand jury. Defense attorney Alfredo Parrish asserted that prosecutors failed Parrish asserted that prosecutors failed Parrish asserted that prosecutors failed to swear in the panel and the foreperson to swear in the panel and the foreperson to swear in the panel and the foreperson and neglected to present exculpatory and neglected to present exculpatory and neglected to present exculpatory evidence that would have been favorable evidence that would have been favorable evidence that would have been favorable to Ramsey. The defense surmises that to Ramsey. The defense surmises that to Ramsey. The defense surmises that this evidence included testimony from a this evidence included testimony from a this evidence included testimony from a witness that allegedly changed after witness that allegedly changed after witness that allegedly changed after they were informed Ramsey was a suspect they were informed Ramsey was a suspect they were informed Ramsey was a suspect in the case. Judge Coleman Coleman in the case. Judge Coleman Coleman in the case. Judge Coleman Coleman McAllister is taking the arguments under McAllister is taking the arguments under McAllister is taking the arguments under advisement and is set to issue a ruling advisement and is set to issue a ruling advisement and is set to issue a ruling later as Oakland's loved ones continue later as Oakland's loved ones continue later as Oakland's loved ones continue to hope for justice in her death. to hope for justice in her death. to hope for justice in her death. Um Um Um This is interesting. Um This is interesting. Um This is interesting. Um Not the argument about the unfair Not the argument about the unfair Not the argument about the unfair presentation of evidence.

presentation of evidence. presentation of evidence. But the argument about the not swearing But the argument about the not swearing But the argument about the not swearing in the jury. Could something this um um kind of formulaic, this um kind of formulaic, this um kind of formulaic, this um This doesn't have to do with really the This doesn't have to do with really the This doesn't have to do with really the weight of the evidence. It has to do weight of the evidence. It has to do weight of the evidence. It has to do with with with procedure and the checking of boxes. procedure and the checking of boxes. procedure and the checking of boxes. But sometimes that's important enough to But sometimes that's important enough to But sometimes that's important enough to overturn things. I mean, think about it overturn things. I mean, think about it overturn things. I mean, think about it this way. this way. this way. We have statutory requirements We have statutory requirements We have statutory requirements um um um for things like when a person needs to for things like when a person needs to for things like when a person needs to be be be arraigned or when a person needs to have arraigned or when a person needs to have arraigned or when a person needs to have their prelim heard or when a person their prelim heard or when a person their prelim heard or when a person needs to have their trial heard. needs to have their trial heard. needs to have their trial heard. Those are Those are Those are laws made by each jurisdiction. laws made by each jurisdiction. laws made by each jurisdiction. Those are not according to the Those are not according to the Those are not according to the Constitution. The Constitution just says Constitution. The Constitution just says Constitution. The Constitution just says you have a right to a speedy trial. And you have a right to a speedy trial. And you have a right to a speedy trial. And I I know I'm on a little bit of a I I know I'm on a little bit of a I I know I'm on a little bit of a tangent here, but bear with me. tangent here, but bear with me. tangent here, but bear with me. In each state though, they decide what In each state though, they decide what In each state though, they decide what that means.

that means. that means. In jurisdictions like where I practice In jurisdictions like where I practice In jurisdictions like where I practice in California, it's very strict. You are in California, it's very strict. You are in California, it's very strict. You are to be arraigned within 48 hours. You to be arraigned within 48 hours. You to be arraigned within 48 hours. You have 10 days to get to prelim. You have have 10 days to get to prelim. You have have 10 days to get to prelim. You have 60 days to get to trial. And it's only 60 days to get to trial. And it's only 60 days to get to trial. And it's only if the defendant waves any of those if the defendant waves any of those if the defendant waves any of those that you can go beyond those time that you can go beyond those time that you can go beyond those time periods. If you blow those time periods, periods. If you blow those time periods, periods. If you blow those time periods, if you go past those time periods, the if you go past those time periods, the if you go past those time periods, the case will get dismissed. That's how case will get dismissed. That's how case will get dismissed. That's how serious they are. serious they are. serious they are. In other jurisdictions, I have friends In other jurisdictions, I have friends In other jurisdictions, I have friends who practice criminal defense in who practice criminal defense in who practice criminal defense in Tennessee. Tennessee. Tennessee. There is no time period. There is no There is no time period. There is no There is no time period. There is no time limit. time limit. time limit. They have people who are waiting for They have people who are waiting for They have people who are waiting for their trials for months upon months their trials for months upon months their trials for months upon months sitting in jail sometimes. sitting in jail sometimes. sitting in jail sometimes. Now, there that's not an abuse of the Now, there that's not an abuse of the Now, there that's not an abuse of the Constitution because according to the Constitution because according to the Constitution because according to the state of Tennessee, that's still state of Tennessee, that's still state of Tennessee, that's still reasonably speedy given the resources reasonably speedy given the resources reasonably speedy given the resources that they have. that they have. that they have. I point all of this out to say that I point all of this out to say that I point all of this out to say that when you're talking about a violation of when you're talking about a violation of when you're talking about a violation of a statute that is to some extent a statute that is to some extent a statute that is to some extent procedural and not necessarily a procedural and not necessarily a procedural and not necessarily a violation of that person's violation of that person's violation of that person's constitutional rights.

constitutional rights. constitutional rights. Now, when you have a grand jury, Now, when you have a grand jury, Now, when you have a grand jury, All of that, the person who All of that, the person who All of that, the person who is uh the the the jurors themselves and is uh the the the jurors themselves and is uh the the the jurors themselves and the foreperson, procedurally are to be the foreperson, procedurally are to be the foreperson, procedurally are to be sworn in. It's important because they're sworn in. It's important because they're sworn in. It's important because they're supposed to be doing things under oath. supposed to be doing things under oath. supposed to be doing things under oath. Now, in this case, they're claiming that Now, in this case, they're claiming that Now, in this case, they're claiming that they were not sworn in. Is that just a they were not sworn in. Is that just a they were not sworn in. Is that just a mere procedural violation that is not mere procedural violation that is not mere procedural violation that is not going to be seen as a real problem for going to be seen as a real problem for going to be seen as a real problem for this case, or is it important enough this case, or is it important enough this case, or is it important enough that even though it is essentially that even though it is essentially that even though it is essentially procedural, it's important enough for procedural, it's important enough for procedural, it's important enough for the judge to toss the indictment? That's the judge to toss the indictment? That's the judge to toss the indictment? That's an interesting [clears throat] question. an interesting [clears throat] question. an interesting [clears throat] question. And I'm not sure how the judge will come And I'm not sure how the judge will come And I'm not sure how the judge will come out on it. I have a feeling that the the out on it. I have a feeling that the the out on it. I have a feeling that the the judge will say it's a essentially a judge will say it's a essentially a judge will say it's a essentially a harmless error. harmless error. harmless error. But getting into the other point about But getting into the other point about But getting into the other point about whether or not the presentation of whether or not the presentation of whether or not the presentation of evidence was fair. evidence was fair. evidence was fair. Um Um Um the the courts in Iowa follow the the the courts in Iowa follow the the the courts in Iowa follow the federal court standards as far as the federal court standards as far as the federal court standards as far as the presentation of exculpatory evidence. presentation of exculpatory evidence. presentation of exculpatory evidence. It's important to understand how a grand It's important to understand how a grand It's important to understand how a grand jury works.

jury works. jury works. A grand jury is a probable cause A grand jury is a probable cause A grand jury is a probable cause determination just like a preliminary determination just like a preliminary determination just like a preliminary hearing. hearing. hearing. At a preliminary hearing, you have the At a preliminary hearing, you have the At a preliminary hearing, you have the prosecution calling witnesses, the prosecution calling witnesses, the prosecution calling witnesses, the defense cross-examining those witnesses. defense cross-examining those witnesses. defense cross-examining those witnesses. You might even have the defense putting You might even have the defense putting You might even have the defense putting on witnesses if they're putting on an on witnesses if they're putting on an on witnesses if they're putting on an affirmative defense. And the judge is affirmative defense. And the judge is affirmative defense. And the judge is the one who decides is there probable the one who decides is there probable the one who decides is there probable cause to hold that person to to to cause to hold that person to to to cause to hold that person to to to answer and bind them over for trial. answer and bind them over for trial. answer and bind them over for trial. At a grand jury, the defense is not At a grand jury, the defense is not At a grand jury, the defense is not present. present. present. For the most in most cases, they're not For the most in most cases, they're not For the most in most cases, they're not present. present. present. And they don't get the opportunity to And they don't get the opportunity to And they don't get the opportunity to cross-examine. cross-examine. cross-examine. And they don't get the opportunity to And they don't get the opportunity to And they don't get the opportunity to put on an affirmative defense. put on an affirmative defense. put on an affirmative defense. So, So, So, it is incumbent upon the prosecution it is incumbent upon the prosecution it is incumbent upon the prosecution to essentially try to wear two hats to essentially try to wear two hats to essentially try to wear two hats and present a fair and present a fair and present a fair objective understanding of the evidence objective understanding of the evidence objective understanding of the evidence for the grand jury to make that same for the grand jury to make that same for the grand jury to make that same determination about probable cause.

determination about probable cause. determination about probable cause. Now, Now, Now, again, some jurisdictions require the again, some jurisdictions require the again, some jurisdictions require the presentation of exculpatory evidence. presentation of exculpatory evidence. presentation of exculpatory evidence. Federally and in the state of Iowa, it Federally and in the state of Iowa, it Federally and in the state of Iowa, it is not required, but there is still a is not required, but there is still a is not required, but there is still a standard for a judge to review if the standard for a judge to review if the standard for a judge to review if the prosecution makes obvious and blatant prosecution makes obvious and blatant prosecution makes obvious and blatant omissions of evidence that might be omissions of evidence that might be omissions of evidence that might be exculpatory. exculpatory. exculpatory. Or obvious and blatant omissions of Or obvious and blatant omissions of Or obvious and blatant omissions of uh say problem problems with the uh say problem problems with the uh say problem problems with the prosecution's case. For instance, say a prosecution's case. For instance, say a prosecution's case. For instance, say a witness who may have been convicted for witness who may have been convicted for witness who may have been convicted for perjury in the past. perjury in the past. perjury in the past. Just for the assessment of the jurors of Just for the assessment of the jurors of Just for the assessment of the jurors of that particular witness. Things like that particular witness. Things like that particular witness. Things like this. this. this. In this case, they're making a similar In this case, they're making a similar In this case, they're making a similar argument that the idea that this witness argument that the idea that this witness argument that the idea that this witness had changed their testimony had changed their testimony had changed their testimony after learning that Ramsey was a suspect after learning that Ramsey was a suspect after learning that Ramsey was a suspect uh was not presented to the jury. And uh was not presented to the jury. And uh was not presented to the jury. And would that be something that may have would that be something that may have would that be something that may have changed the jurors' minds. Again, the the the way these cases usually end up when the way these cases usually end up when the way these cases usually end up when defense attorneys try to attack a grand defense attorneys try to attack a grand defense attorneys try to attack a grand jury indictment based upon this idea of jury indictment based upon this idea of jury indictment based upon this idea of fairness and whether or not enough fairness and whether or not enough fairness and whether or not enough exculpatory evidence was presented to exculpatory evidence was presented to exculpatory evidence was presented to the jury is it usually ends up in favor the jury is it usually ends up in favor the jury is it usually ends up in favor of the prosecution. It would have to be, of the prosecution. It would have to be, of the prosecution. It would have to be, I think, a real I think, a real I think, a real obvious obvious obvious violation of of of exculpatory evidence.

violation of of of exculpatory evidence. violation of of of exculpatory evidence. Something like Something like Something like a person had admitted to it a person had admitted to it a person had admitted to it and been convicted for it. and been convicted for it. and been convicted for it. Or and that it's somehow been overturned Or and that it's somehow been overturned Or and that it's somehow been overturned for some other reason. Or just just, you for some other reason. Or just just, you for some other reason. Or just just, you know, other DNA found. I mean, you got know, other DNA found. I mean, you got know, other DNA found. I mean, you got to think about really kind of obvious to think about really kind of obvious to think about really kind of obvious things. Because for the most part, things. Because for the most part, things. Because for the most part, the way that these reviewing courts view the way that these reviewing courts view the way that these reviewing courts view this is this is this is this is only a probable cause this is only a probable cause this is only a probable cause determination. This is not a determination. This is not a determination. This is not a determination of guilt. determination of guilt. determination of guilt. And in a determination of probable And in a determination of probable And in a determination of probable cause, they don't need to consider every cause, they don't need to consider every cause, they don't need to consider every possible defense in in evaluating the possible defense in in evaluating the possible defense in in evaluating the merits of the case. So, we'll see. This merits of the case. So, we'll see. This merits of the case. So, we'll see. This is a case that's very interesting is a case that's very interesting is a case that's very interesting because because because uh uh uh Ramsey, the defendant here, had been a Ramsey, the defendant here, had been a Ramsey, the defendant here, had been a person of interest for 15 years. person of interest for 15 years. person of interest for 15 years. Yet, it took this long Yet, it took this long Yet, it took this long uh to bring an indictment. And it would uh to bring an indictment. And it would uh to bring an indictment. And it would be interesting to see what that final change, change, new piece of evidence, person deciding new piece of evidence, person deciding new piece of evidence, person deciding to come forward, whatever it was that to come forward, whatever it was that to come forward, whatever it was that decided to to give prosecutors the decided to to give prosecutors the decided to to give prosecutors the enough evidence or confidence that they enough evidence or confidence that they enough evidence or confidence that they felt that they could bring this felt that they could bring this felt that they could bring this prosecution. We'll continue to keep an prosecution. We'll continue to keep an prosecution. We'll continue to keep an eye on that case as well. But for our eye on that case as well. But for our eye on that case as well. But for our last uh case, let's move to the ongoing last uh case, let's move to the ongoing last uh case, let's move to the ongoing trial in Las Vegas, Nevada as trial in Las Vegas, Nevada as trial in Las Vegas, Nevada as prosecutors mount their case against the prosecutors mount their case against the prosecutors mount their case against the man accused of murdering hip-hop icon man accused of murdering hip-hop icon man accused of murdering hip-hop icon Tupac Shakur. Testimony detailed Tupac Shakur. Testimony detailed Tupac Shakur. Testimony detailed retaliatory violence after the shooting.

retaliatory violence after the shooting. retaliatory violence after the shooting. Defendant Duane Keith "Keffe D" Davis Defendant Duane Keith "Keffe D" Davis Defendant Duane Keith "Keffe D" Davis was by his own accord a high-ranking was by his own accord a high-ranking was by his own accord a high-ranking member of the South Side Compton Crips member of the South Side Compton Crips member of the South Side Compton Crips at the time of Shakur's slaying. Shakur at the time of Shakur's slaying. Shakur at the time of Shakur's slaying. Shakur and his label boss, Suge Knight, were and his label boss, Suge Knight, were and his label boss, Suge Knight, were affiliated with the Mob Piru Bloods, affiliated with the Mob Piru Bloods, affiliated with the Mob Piru Bloods, which was in the middle of a gang feud which was in the middle of a gang feud which was in the middle of a gang feud with Davis's Crips. Prosecutors with Davis's Crips. Prosecutors with Davis's Crips. Prosecutors maintained that Davis was the maintained that Davis was the maintained that Davis was the shot-caller in Shakur's death, claiming shot-caller in Shakur's death, claiming shot-caller in Shakur's death, claiming that Davis didn't pull the trigger, but that Davis didn't pull the trigger, but that Davis didn't pull the trigger, but ordered the killing and supplied the ordered the killing and supplied the ordered the killing and supplied the weapon after an attack on his cousin. weapon after an attack on his cousin. weapon after an attack on his cousin. Retired Detective Robert Ladd took the Retired Detective Robert Ladd took the Retired Detective Robert Ladd took the stand this week saying there was no stand this week saying there was no stand this week saying there was no doubt that the South Side Compton Crips doubt that the South Side Compton Crips doubt that the South Side Compton Crips were behind Shakur's revenge killing. were behind Shakur's revenge killing. were behind Shakur's revenge killing. Ladd noted that just over a week after Ladd noted that just over a week after Ladd noted that just over a week after the after Shakur's slaying, there were the after Shakur's slaying, there were the after Shakur's slaying, there were 10 attempted murders via drive-by in Los 10 attempted murders via drive-by in Los 10 attempted murders via drive-by in Los Angeles, all allegedly perpetrated by Angeles, all allegedly perpetrated by Angeles, all allegedly perpetrated by the Mob Piru Bloods the Mob Piru Bloods the Mob Piru Bloods against members of the South Side against members of the South Side against members of the South Side Compton Crips. Though, Davis previously Compton Crips. Though, Davis previously Compton Crips. Though, Davis previously bragged in his memoir and interviews bragged in his memoir and interviews bragged in his memoir and interviews that he was the leader of the gang and that he was the leader of the gang and that he was the leader of the gang and was involved in Shakur's Las Vegas was involved in Shakur's Las Vegas was involved in Shakur's Las Vegas homicide, his defense is claiming that homicide, his defense is claiming that homicide, his defense is claiming that these assertions were all tall tales.

these assertions were all tall tales. these assertions were all tall tales. While the proceedings have provided one While the proceedings have provided one While the proceedings have provided one of the most comprehensive accounts of of the most comprehensive accounts of of the most comprehensive accounts of Shakur's death, we will have to wait and Shakur's death, we will have to wait and Shakur's death, we will have to wait and see if the jury finds Davis responsible. see if the jury finds Davis responsible. see if the jury finds Davis responsible. Um, this case is interesting to me Um, this case is interesting to me Um, this case is interesting to me because um, it really does come down to because um, it really does come down to because um, it really does come down to a gang case. After all of this, a gang case. After all of this, a gang case. After all of this, decades, all of the lore and mystery decades, all of the lore and mystery decades, all of the lore and mystery surrounding this case, all of the idea surrounding this case, all of the idea surrounding this case, all of the idea about about about Suge Knight and Tupac and Biggie and all Suge Knight and Tupac and Biggie and all Suge Knight and Tupac and Biggie and all of these characters that we know so much of these characters that we know so much of these characters that we know so much about, it really, according to the about, it really, according to the about, it really, according to the prosecution at least, prosecution at least, prosecution at least, is coming down to a is coming down to a is coming down to a garden variety, garden variety, garden variety, even though that's a really bad way of even though that's a really bad way of even though that's a really bad way of putting it, putting it, putting it, gang case. gang case. gang case. And that's how the prosecution has to And that's how the prosecution has to And that's how the prosecution has to has to treat it, as a gang case where has to treat it, as a gang case where has to treat it, as a gang case where explaining to explaining to explaining to jurors who might not be fluent in that jurors who might not be fluent in that jurors who might not be fluent in that culture, how something like beef, culture, how something like beef, culture, how something like beef, something like disrespect can lead to something like disrespect can lead to something like disrespect can lead to murder, murder, murder, even the murder of a high-profile even the murder of a high-profile even the murder of a high-profile individual.

individual. individual. If a if a gang If a if a gang If a if a gang feels disrespected and challenged feels disrespected and challenged feels disrespected and challenged by a person of the opposite gang or by a by a person of the opposite gang or by a by a person of the opposite gang or by a person even affiliated with someone of person even affiliated with someone of person even affiliated with someone of the opposite gang, that can lead to the opposite gang, that can lead to the opposite gang, that can lead to murder. And explaining to them that that murder. And explaining to them that that murder. And explaining to them that that is motive enough for these gang cases. is motive enough for these gang cases. is motive enough for these gang cases. What's also interesting about gang cases What's also interesting about gang cases What's also interesting about gang cases is people don't like to talk. is people don't like to talk. is people don't like to talk. Even if it's years later, they don't Even if it's years later, they don't Even if it's years later, they don't like to testify. like to testify. like to testify. It's it's it It's it's it It's it's it In the gang cases that I've prosecuted, In the gang cases that I've prosecuted, In the gang cases that I've prosecuted, I've had people who would rather I've had people who would rather I've had people who would rather not cooperate with law enforcement and not cooperate with law enforcement and not cooperate with law enforcement and not testify even if that means bringing not testify even if that means bringing not testify even if that means bringing justice to somebody that they loved and justice to somebody that they loved and justice to somebody that they loved and cared about, even a family member, cared about, even a family member, cared about, even a family member, rather than be viewed as a snitch and rather than be viewed as a snitch and rather than be viewed as a snitch and rather than be viewed as cooperating rather than be viewed as cooperating rather than be viewed as cooperating with law enforcement cuz that's an even with law enforcement cuz that's an even with law enforcement cuz that's an even greater sin to them. greater sin to them. greater sin to them. Then, Then, Then, you have this unique wrinkle in this you have this unique wrinkle in this you have this unique wrinkle in this case where usually prosecutors are in case where usually prosecutors are in case where usually prosecutors are in the position of saying anything that the position of saying anything that the position of saying anything that you've heard from the defendant, don't you've heard from the defendant, don't you've heard from the defendant, don't believe.

believe. believe. Now, Now, Now, they're in the position of saying, they're in the position of saying, they're in the position of saying, "Please believe everything that the that "Please believe everything that the that "Please believe everything that the that Duane Davis has told you before now." Duane Davis has told you before now." Duane Davis has told you before now." Duane Davis has given interviews. Duane Duane Davis has given interviews. Duane Duane Davis has given interviews. Duane Davis took part in writing a memoir. Davis took part in writing a memoir. Davis took part in writing a memoir. Please believe him when he says that he Please believe him when he says that he Please believe him when he says that he was involved in this, when he says that was involved in this, when he says that was involved in this, when he says that he was the shot-caller, when he says he was the shot-caller, when he says he was the shot-caller, when he says that he provided the weapon. that he provided the weapon. that he provided the weapon. Because a large part of their case Because a large part of their case Because a large part of their case hinges upon that. hinges upon that. hinges upon that. The defense, The defense, The defense, again uniquely, again uniquely, again uniquely, is in the position where they would is in the position where they would is in the position where they would usually say, "Please believe my client. usually say, "Please believe my client. usually say, "Please believe my client. He's telling you the truth when he He's telling you the truth when he He's telling you the truth when he didn't do this thing." didn't do this thing." didn't do this thing." is saying, "Please don't believe my is saying, "Please don't believe my is saying, "Please don't believe my client for everything he ever said client for everything he ever said client for everything he ever said before, that all of this was tall before, that all of this was tall before, that all of this was tall tales." And here's the problem for the tales." And here's the problem for the tales." And here's the problem for the prosecution. Some of it was tall tales. prosecution. Some of it was tall tales. prosecution. Some of it was tall tales. Some of it was exaggeration. Some of it Some of it was exaggeration. Some of it Some of it was exaggeration. Some of it was was was a person trying to sell books and making a person trying to sell books and making a person trying to sell books and making themselves look good and like they were themselves look good and like they were themselves look good and like they were some real tough gangster. They wanted to some real tough gangster. They wanted to some real tough gangster. They wanted to sell books. sell books. sell books. But, But, But, to help the prosecution, this isn't the to help the prosecution, this isn't the to help the prosecution, this isn't the only time that he made these statements.

only time that he made these statements. only time that he made these statements. And and in the book was not the only And and in the book was not the only And and in the book was not the only circumstance in which he made these circumstance in which he made these circumstance in which he made these statements. Some of this was given statements. Some of this was given statements. Some of this was given during during during uh proffers and other um uh proffers and other um uh proffers and other um uh statements that he made to law uh statements that he made to law uh statements that he made to law enforcement that I think will end up enforcement that I think will end up enforcement that I think will end up carrying the day for the prosecution in carrying the day for the prosecution in carrying the day for the prosecution in all of this. But, it is just uh um all of this. But, it is just uh um all of this. But, it is just uh um somehow strange and ironic to me that somehow strange and ironic to me that somehow strange and ironic to me that after all these years, this is one of after all these years, this is one of after all these years, this is one of the biggest mysteries from 30, 40 years the biggest mysteries from 30, 40 years the biggest mysteries from 30, 40 years ago, part of many of us, our our our ago, part of many of us, our our our ago, part of many of us, our our our culture, culture, culture, uh and and and youth, uh and and and youth, uh and and and youth, and it's going to come down to a beef. and it's going to come down to a beef. and it's going to come down to a beef. A beef over a necklace and disrespect. A beef over a necklace and disrespect. A beef over a necklace and disrespect. Pretty incredible stuff. We will Pretty incredible stuff. We will Pretty incredible stuff. We will continue to watch that one and keep our continue to watch that one and keep our continue to watch that one and keep our eyes on it and update you as it eyes on it and update you as it eyes on it and update you as it progresses along, but that is our show progresses along, but that is our show progresses along, but that is our show for this week. for this week. for this week. I would like to take an opportunity to I would like to take an opportunity to I would like to take an opportunity to thank all of our listeners, our viewers thank all of our listeners, our viewers thank all of our listeners, our viewers for always tuning in. I'm your host, for always tuning in. I'm your host, for always tuning in. I'm your host, Joshua Joshua Joshua Ritter, Esq. And if you want to hear my Ritter, Esq. And if you want to hear my Ritter, Esq. And if you want to hear my thoughts and coverage on even more true thoughts and coverage on even more true thoughts and coverage on even more true crime cases, please check out my YouTube crime cases, please check out my YouTube crime cases, please check out my YouTube channel, Court and Confidential. And you channel, Court and Confidential. And you channel, Court and Confidential. And you can, of course, find all of our Sidebar can, of course, find all of our Sidebar can, of course, find all of our Sidebar episodes wherever you get your podcast.

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