Prosecutors drop death penalty against Nick Reiner; Influencer accused of custody battle murder plot

Hello and welcome to the Sidebar, Hello and welcome to the Sidebar, presented by True Crime News, taking you presented by True Crime News, taking you presented by True Crime News, taking you inside the courtrooms of high-profile inside the courtrooms of high-profile inside the courtrooms of high-profile and notorious cases from across the and notorious cases from across the and notorious cases from across the country. I'm your host, Joshua Ritter. country. I'm your host, Joshua Ritter. country. I'm your host, Joshua Ritter. I'm a criminal defense lawyer based in I'm a criminal defense lawyer based in I'm a criminal defense lawyer based in Los Angeles and previously an LA County Los Angeles and previously an LA County Los Angeles and previously an LA County prosecutor for a decade. We are prosecutor for a decade. We are prosecutor for a decade. We are recording this on Wednesday, September recording this on Wednesday, September recording this on Wednesday, September 16th, 2026. In this week's episode, a 16th, 2026. In this week's episode, a 16th, 2026. In this week's episode, a social media influencer charged in a social media influencer charged in a social media influencer charged in a custody battle murder plot targeting her custody battle murder plot targeting her custody battle murder plot targeting her pop star ex-boyfriend. Plus, a Florida pop star ex-boyfriend. Plus, a Florida pop star ex-boyfriend. Plus, a Florida plastic surgeon facing the death penalty plastic surgeon facing the death penalty plastic surgeon facing the death penalty decides to act as his own attorney. But decides to act as his own attorney. But decides to act as his own attorney. But first, prosecutors announced they will first, prosecutors announced they will first, prosecutors announced they will not seek the death penalty against Nick not seek the death penalty against Nick not seek the death penalty against Nick Reiner in his parents' slaying. Today we Reiner in his parents' slaying. Today we Reiner in his parents' slaying. Today we are joined by Joe Patutoo, a law are joined by Joe Patutoo, a law are joined by Joe Patutoo, a law professor at the University of Nebraska professor at the University of Nebraska professor at the University of Nebraska and the host of the popular popular and the host of the popular popular and the host of the popular popular YouTube channel Professor Joe Explains. YouTube channel Professor Joe Explains. YouTube channel Professor Joe Explains. Joe, welcome back, my friend. How are Joe, welcome back, my friend. How are Joe, welcome back, my friend. How are you? you? you? >> I'm fine. You look good. >> I'm fine. You look good. >> I'm fine. You look good. >> Oh, thank you. So do you. >> Oh, thank you. So do you. >> Oh, thank you. So do you. >> I'm so glad to uh be able to talk to you >> I'm so glad to uh be able to talk to you >> I'm so glad to uh be able to talk to you about these cases because um they've got about these cases because um they've got about these cases because um they've got some interesting some interesting some interesting >> legal wrinkles. Sometimes we're talking >> legal wrinkles. Sometimes we're talking >> legal wrinkles. Sometimes we're talking about stuff that's just, you know, the about stuff that's just, you know, the about stuff that's just, you know, the facts and what happened, but these have facts and what happened, but these have facts and what happened, but these have a little bit of uh explaining to do. So, a little bit of uh explaining to do. So, a little bit of uh explaining to do. So, I'm glad that we have you on board, and I'm glad that we have you on board, and I'm glad that we have you on board, and I know that you've been following these I know that you've been following these I know that you've been following these cases closely. Uh let's jump right in.

cases closely. Uh let's jump right in. cases closely. Uh let's jump right in. First, out of Los Angeles, California, First, out of Los Angeles, California, First, out of Los Angeles, California, after a period of public posturing, LAA after a period of public posturing, LAA after a period of public posturing, LAA Nathan Hawkman confirmed his office will Nathan Hawkman confirmed his office will Nathan Hawkman confirmed his office will not con uh will not pursue the death not con uh will not pursue the death not con uh will not pursue the death penalty against Nick Reiner in the penalty against Nick Reiner in the penalty against Nick Reiner in the deaths of his parents, Hollywood deaths of his parents, Hollywood deaths of his parents, Hollywood director Rob Reiner and his wife director Rob Reiner and his wife director Rob Reiner and his wife Michelle Singer Reiner. Hawkman Michelle Singer Reiner. Hawkman Michelle Singer Reiner. Hawkman explained they reached the decision explained they reached the decision explained they reached the decision after a rigorous review of the after a rigorous review of the after a rigorous review of the aggravating and mitig mitigating factors aggravating and mitig mitigating factors aggravating and mitig mitigating factors in the case, including Reiner's in the case, including Reiner's in the case, including Reiner's documented history of drug use and documented history of drug use and documented history of drug use and mental illness. The absence of the death mental illness. The absence of the death mental illness. The absence of the death penalty will remove a hurdle for penalty will remove a hurdle for penalty will remove a hurdle for Reiner's public defender, who has been Reiner's public defender, who has been Reiner's public defender, who has been appointed after Reiner unsuccessfully appointed after Reiner unsuccessfully appointed after Reiner unsuccessfully attempted to access his trust fund for attempted to access his trust fund for attempted to access his trust fund for private representation due to private representation due to private representation due to California's Slayer statute. Prosecutors California's Slayer statute. Prosecutors California's Slayer statute. Prosecutors also cited the desires of the surviving also cited the desires of the surviving also cited the desires of the surviving family members, Reiner's siblings, who family members, Reiner's siblings, who family members, Reiner's siblings, who reportedly made their objections to the reportedly made their objections to the reportedly made their objections to the ultimate punishment known. As it stands, ultimate punishment known. As it stands, ultimate punishment known. As it stands, no trial date is yet set for Reiner, but no trial date is yet set for Reiner, but no trial date is yet set for Reiner, but prosecutors in [clears throat] indicated prosecutors in [clears throat] indicated prosecutors in [clears throat] indicated they did not expect a trial until they did not expect a trial until they did not expect a trial until sometime next year, and I'd say we'd be sometime next year, and I'd say we'd be sometime next year, and I'd say we'd be lucky to even get it that soon. But lucky to even get it that soon. But lucky to even get it that soon. But let's first get into this decision about let's first get into this decision about let's first get into this decision about the death penalty. First of all, just to the death penalty. First of all, just to the death penalty. First of all, just to be very clear, California has been in a be very clear, California has been in a be very clear, California has been in a moratorium since 2019 and the last time moratorium since 2019 and the last time moratorium since 2019 and the last time an execution was actually carried out an execution was actually carried out an execution was actually carried out here was 20 years ago. So to some here was 20 years ago. So to some here was 20 years ago. So to some extent, this is symbolic. Do you think extent, this is symbolic. Do you think extent, this is symbolic. Do you think that plays a role or what do you think that plays a role or what do you think that plays a role or what do you think was the decision maker here really in was the decision maker here really in was the decision maker here really in them not pursuing the death penalty?

them not pursuing the death penalty? them not pursuing the death penalty? Because we're talking about a case where Because we're talking about a case where Because we're talking about a case where two people were killed in a very two people were killed in a very two people were killed in a very horrific way. Usually this would be well horrific way. Usually this would be well horrific way. Usually this would be well within the conversation. within the conversation. within the conversation. >> Yeah. You know, originally I thought >> Yeah. You know, originally I thought >> Yeah. You know, originally I thought they were using it as a bargaining chip they were using it as a bargaining chip they were using it as a bargaining chip even though it hasn't been imposed in a even though it hasn't been imposed in a even though it hasn't been imposed in a in a number of years. Uh it's a way to in a number of years. Uh it's a way to in a number of years. Uh it's a way to get an agreement as to a lesser charge. get an agreement as to a lesser charge. get an agreement as to a lesser charge. Uh, and so I'm rethinking that since Uh, and so I'm rethinking that since Uh, and so I'm rethinking that since they've now removed it. They've taken it they've now removed it. They've taken it they've now removed it. They've taken it off the table. Uh, my, you know, it's off the table. Uh, my, you know, it's off the table. Uh, my, you know, it's only speculation, but I'm I'm guessing only speculation, but I'm I'm guessing only speculation, but I'm I'm guessing that there were a couple of things. One, that there were a couple of things. One, that there were a couple of things. One, that the family's opposition really that the family's opposition really that the family's opposition really played an important role. They didn't played an important role. They didn't played an important role. They didn't have to follow what the brother and have to follow what the brother and have to follow what the brother and sister wanted, but I'm sure it had it sister wanted, but I'm sure it had it sister wanted, but I'm sure it had it had quite a role. And the other thing is had quite a role. And the other thing is had quite a role. And the other thing is [clears throat] always with the death [clears throat] always with the death [clears throat] always with the death penalty case, things are more penalty case, things are more penalty case, things are more heightened. uh judges pay more attention heightened. uh judges pay more attention heightened. uh judges pay more attention to to rulings about admissible evidence to to rulings about admissible evidence to to rulings about admissible evidence and objections. And it seems to me even and objections. And it seems to me even and objections. And it seems to me even at the outset, if you're going to have at the outset, if you're going to have at the outset, if you're going to have the extra problems and you have the the extra problems and you have the the extra problems and you have the family that really doesn't want it and family that really doesn't want it and family that really doesn't want it and you're in a state which hasn't imposed you're in a state which hasn't imposed you're in a state which hasn't imposed it in quite a while, it seems like the it in quite a while, it seems like the it in quite a while, it seems like the the easy answer not to go after it.

the easy answer not to go after it. the easy answer not to go after it. >> Yeah. I mean, it to me, you're right. >> Yeah. I mean, it to me, you're right. >> Yeah. I mean, it to me, you're right. they if they're going to pursue it, it they if they're going to pursue it, it they if they're going to pursue it, it really has to be a situation where they really has to be a situation where they really has to be a situation where they really mean it because, really mean it because, really mean it because, you know, it it it is effectively not in you know, it it it is effectively not in you know, it it it is effectively not in use in California. Um, and I think you use in California. Um, and I think you use in California. Um, and I think you nailed it when you said it was more nailed it when you said it was more nailed it when you said it was more about the family. I think the about the family. I think the about the family. I think the circumstances of the crime definitely circumstances of the crime definitely circumstances of the crime definitely warrant it. But if you you got to think warrant it. But if you you got to think warrant it. But if you you got to think about you're going to go into a penalty about you're going to go into a penalty about you're going to go into a penalty phase and in that penalty phase they're phase and in that penalty phase they're phase and in that penalty phase they're going to call all sorts of family going to call all sorts of family going to call all sorts of family members to talk about Rob Reiner and members to talk about Rob Reiner and members to talk about Rob Reiner and Michelle Reiner and the loss of their Michelle Reiner and the loss of their Michelle Reiner and the loss of their lives and how horrific it is. But lives and how horrific it is. But lives and how horrific it is. But they're also going to weigh in on when they're also going to weigh in on when they're also going to weigh in on when asked any question by the defense on asked any question by the defense on asked any question by the defense on whether or not they feel the death whether or not they feel the death whether or not they feel the death penalty is appropriate or somehow that penalty is appropriate or somehow that penalty is appropriate or somehow that will play a role in their testimony. And will play a role in their testimony. And will play a role in their testimony. And if they're not behind it, I just I can't if they're not behind it, I just I can't if they're not behind it, I just I can't see 12 jurors saying, "Well, the see 12 jurors saying, "Well, the see 12 jurors saying, "Well, the family's against it, but we're still we family's against it, but we're still we family's against it, but we're still we still feel so strongly we're going to still feel so strongly we're going to still feel so strongly we're going to vote for it." You know what I mean? vote for it." You know what I mean? vote for it." You know what I mean? >> Yeah, I know. I need You're exactly >> Yeah, I know. I need You're exactly >> Yeah, I know. I need You're exactly right. Uh and the other thing is he's right. Uh and the other thing is he's right. Uh and the other thing is he's got the, you know, the not so much the got the, you know, the not so much the got the, you know, the not so much the drug issues, but the mental issues here.

drug issues, but the mental issues here. drug issues, but the mental issues here. And I have a hard time even even without And I have a hard time even even without And I have a hard time even even without the family seeing a a a death penalty the family seeing a a a death penalty the family seeing a a a death penalty jury imposing the death penalty on a jury imposing the death penalty on a jury imposing the death penalty on a defendant where there's going to be defendant where there's going to be defendant where there's going to be significant and you know important significant and you know important significant and you know important testimony that he really has a serious testimony that he really has a serious testimony that he really has a serious mental disease that's affecting his mental disease that's affecting his mental disease that's affecting his cognitive ability even if uh he was non cognitive ability even if uh he was non cognitive ability even if uh he was non insane as a matter of law. insane as a matter of law. insane as a matter of law. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, I think you're right. I >> Yeah. Yeah. No, I think you're right. I >> Yeah. Yeah. No, I think you're right. I think it's it's a lot of difficult think it's it's a lot of difficult think it's it's a lot of difficult circumstances outside of the actual circumstances outside of the actual circumstances outside of the actual circumstances of the crime that probably circumstances of the crime that probably circumstances of the crime that probably arrive at a very I think reasonable arrive at a very I think reasonable arrive at a very I think reasonable position by the DA's office here. Let's position by the DA's office here. Let's position by the DA's office here. Let's get to this issue about him and his get to this issue about him and his get to this issue about him and his trust fund though because originally he trust fund though because originally he trust fund though because originally he was represented by Allen Jackson, was represented by Allen Jackson, was represented by Allen Jackson, big-time attorney, high-profile, big-time attorney, high-profile, big-time attorney, high-profile, highriced attorney, and Allen withdrew highriced attorney, and Allen withdrew highriced attorney, and Allen withdrew saying that it was circumstances outside saying that it was circumstances outside saying that it was circumstances outside of his control. Well, now we know that of his control. Well, now we know that of his control. Well, now we know that those circumstances were simply that those circumstances were simply that those circumstances were simply that Reiner ran out of money. Um, I don't Reiner ran out of money. Um, I don't Reiner ran out of money. Um, I don't know how that's [clears throat] entirely know how that's [clears throat] entirely know how that's [clears throat] entirely outside of Allen's control, but he's outside of Allen's control, but he's outside of Allen's control, but he's saying, "Okay, I can't represent him saying, "Okay, I can't represent him saying, "Okay, I can't represent him anymore. This is too big of a case to do anymore. This is too big of a case to do anymore. This is too big of a case to do this uh simply pro bono." Um, then there this uh simply pro bono." Um, then there this uh simply pro bono." Um, then there was some discussion about, well, he's was some discussion about, well, he's was some discussion about, well, he's owed money through his trust. Nick owed money through his trust. Nick owed money through his trust. Nick Reiner probably doesn't have an a scent Reiner probably doesn't have an a scent Reiner probably doesn't have an a scent to his name that he's actually made to his name that he's actually made to his name that he's actually made himself. father is incredibly wealthy, himself. father is incredibly wealthy, himself. father is incredibly wealthy, but there's uh the trust in play and but there's uh the trust in play and but there's uh the trust in play and there's somebody overseeing the trust there's somebody overseeing the trust there's somebody overseeing the trust that is controlling where that money that is controlling where that money that is controlling where that money goes and they're saying we're not going

goes and they're saying we're not going goes and they're saying we're not going to pay for your defense for having to pay for your defense for having to pay for your defense for having killed your own parents. And then killed your own parents. And then killed your own parents. And then there's this idea of a slayer statute. there's this idea of a slayer statute. there's this idea of a slayer statute. Are you familiar with that and how that Are you familiar with that and how that Are you familiar with that and how that [clears throat] works? [clears throat] works? [clears throat] works? >> Yeah. You know, most states have a >> Yeah. You know, most states have a >> Yeah. You know, most states have a slayer statute now, maybe all of them. slayer statute now, maybe all of them. slayer statute now, maybe all of them. Uh and it's I think I think it's a Uh and it's I think I think it's a Uh and it's I think I think it's a sensible public policy. You shouldn't be sensible public policy. You shouldn't be sensible public policy. You shouldn't be able to kill someone and then benefit able to kill someone and then benefit able to kill someone and then benefit from it by inheriting. And so the slayer from it by inheriting. And so the slayer from it by inheriting. And so the slayer statutes say, you know, if you're statutes say, you know, if you're statutes say, you know, if you're responsible for the fact that now your responsible for the fact that now your responsible for the fact that now your inheritance is triggered, you don't get inheritance is triggered, you don't get inheritance is triggered, you don't get the inheritance. I mean, as a matter of the inheritance. I mean, as a matter of the inheritance. I mean, as a matter of policy, Makes sense. policy, Makes sense. policy, Makes sense. >> Yeah. And it may deter someone from >> Yeah. And it may deter someone from >> Yeah. And it may deter someone from doing it. You figure, gee, if I go after doing it. You figure, gee, if I go after doing it. You figure, gee, if I go after this and and I'm not going to get in this and and I'm not going to get in this and and I'm not going to get in anyway, you know what? What's the point? anyway, you know what? What's the point? anyway, you know what? What's the point? Uh, this this case, though, has a really Uh, this this case, though, has a really Uh, this this case, though, has a really interesting twist to it. And I'm not an interesting twist to it. And I'm not an interesting twist to it. And I'm not an expert on trusted estates law, Josh, and expert on trusted estates law, Josh, and expert on trusted estates law, Josh, and I suspect neither are you. No matter. I suspect neither are you. No matter. I suspect neither are you. No matter. Yeah, that trust is set up, as I read Yeah, that trust is set up, as I read Yeah, that trust is set up, as I read it, again, not being an expert, the it, again, not being an expert, the it, again, not being an expert, the trust is set up, and it sounds as though trust is set up, and it sounds as though trust is set up, and it sounds as though when Nick reached 30, he was entitled to when Nick reached 30, he was entitled to when Nick reached 30, he was entitled to half of the money in the trust. And that half of the money in the trust. And that half of the money in the trust. And that that reaching 30 happened before he that reaching 30 happened before he that reaching 30 happened before he killed his parents. So, it seems to me killed his parents. So, it seems to me killed his parents. So, it seems to me the issue, the other one, is should he the issue, the other one, is should he the issue, the other one, is should he be able to get the rest of it? And I be able to get the rest of it? And I be able to get the rest of it? And I think that's probably a more uh uh at think that's probably a more uh uh at think that's probably a more uh uh at least a more debatable question. But the least a more debatable question. But the least a more debatable question. But the part about the money that that really part about the money that that really part about the money that that really vested in him before he did a killing vested in him before he did a killing vested in him before he did a killing seems to me to be a really tricky one seems to me to be a really tricky one seems to me to be a really tricky one for the and this is the civil courts for the and this is the civil courts for the and this is the civil courts that are going to have to decide whether that are going to have to decide whether that are going to have to decide whether the Slayer statute applies. But the Slayer statute applies. But the Slayer statute applies. But certainly the trustee is not turning

certainly the trustee is not turning certainly the trustee is not turning over the money. I assume for two over the money. I assume for two over the money. I assume for two reasons. One, because he doesn't think reasons. One, because he doesn't think reasons. One, because he doesn't think it's right that Nick should get the it's right that Nick should get the it's right that Nick should get the money having killed his parents. And money having killed his parents. And money having killed his parents. And two, because if there's any question two, because if there's any question two, because if there's any question about the Slayer statute, if I were about the Slayer statute, if I were about the Slayer statute, if I were trustee, I wouldn't want to be forking trustee, I wouldn't want to be forking trustee, I wouldn't want to be forking over money, then in fact it's going to over money, then in fact it's going to over money, then in fact it's going to turn out shouldn't been shouldn't have turn out shouldn't been shouldn't have turn out shouldn't been shouldn't have been given. been given. been given. >> Yeah, very good point. Uh I have not >> Yeah, very good point. Uh I have not >> Yeah, very good point. Uh I have not read the actual trust. I don't think read the actual trust. I don't think read the actual trust. I don't think anybody has. Um and I've heard the same anybody has. Um and I've heard the same anybody has. Um and I've heard the same that you have about how there's this that you have about how there's this that you have about how there's this argument, at least Allan Jackson was argument, at least Allan Jackson was argument, at least Allan Jackson was pretty public saying that there's an pretty public saying that there's an pretty public saying that there's an argument here that he was owed money argument here that he was owed money argument here that he was owed money already before the murders took place. already before the murders took place. already before the murders took place. I've talked to I'm and again you assume I've talked to I'm and again you assume I've talked to I'm and again you assume correctly I am no expert on trust but correctly I am no expert on trust but correctly I am no expert on trust but >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> uh I passed the class and that's all I >> uh I passed the class and that's all I >> uh I passed the class and that's all I remember about it. remember about it. remember about it. >> Yeah, I barely picked >> Yeah, I barely picked >> Yeah, I barely picked >> me too. [laughter] >> me too. [laughter] >> me too. [laughter] But uh I've spoken to some uh people who But uh I've spoken to some uh people who But uh I've spoken to some uh people who deal with trust and they said they would deal with trust and they said they would deal with trust and they said they would be absolutely shocked given his history be absolutely shocked given his history be absolutely shocked given his history of um drug abuse and mental unrest if of um drug abuse and mental unrest if of um drug abuse and mental unrest if there were not all sorts of clauses there were not all sorts of clauses there were not all sorts of clauses included in that that were was things included in that that were was things included in that that were was things like you know if he was ever arrested or like you know if he was ever arrested or like you know if he was ever arrested or if he ever committed a felony or if or if he ever committed a felony or if or if he ever committed a felony or if or just some sort of broad discretion on just some sort of broad discretion on just some sort of broad discretion on the part of the trustee to say you no the part of the trustee to say you no the part of the trustee to say you no benefit for any kind of criminal benefit for any kind of criminal benefit for any kind of criminal activity. They would be shocked given activity. They would be shocked given activity. They would be shocked given his history that it didn't include a his history that it didn't include a his history that it didn't include a bunch of stuff like that. So, um again, bunch of stuff like that. So, um again, bunch of stuff like that. So, um again, every no one's actually put their eyes every no one's actually put their eyes every no one's actually put their eyes on it, but but I've talked to some

on it, but but I've talked to some on it, but but I've talked to some people who are like not all that shocked people who are like not all that shocked people who are like not all that shocked that he's not receiving the money. that he's not receiving the money. that he's not receiving the money. >> And certainly, I would defer to them. >> And certainly, I would defer to them. >> And certainly, I would defer to them. >> Yeah. [clears throat] >> Yeah. [clears throat] >> Yeah. [clears throat] >> But I do have a butt here, and that is >> But I do have a butt here, and that is >> But I do have a butt here, and that is the picture you get of the Reiner the picture you get of the Reiner the picture you get of the Reiner parents where they were that they were parents where they were that they were parents where they were that they were very indulgent. very indulgent. very indulgent. >> Yeah. uh and and uh I don't know that I >> Yeah. uh and and uh I don't know that I >> Yeah. uh and and uh I don't know that I would say made excuses for him exactly, would say made excuses for him exactly, would say made excuses for him exactly, but certainly uh were very sympathetic but certainly uh were very sympathetic but certainly uh were very sympathetic to his situation. And so that picture of to his situation. And so that picture of to his situation. And so that picture of those parents, I would not be I those parents, I would not be I those parents, I would not be I certainly wouldn't be shocked if they certainly wouldn't be shocked if they certainly wouldn't be shocked if they didn't put any conditions in the trust, didn't put any conditions in the trust, didn't put any conditions in the trust, however sensible, however reasonable uh however sensible, however reasonable uh however sensible, however reasonable uh those conditions would have been, those conditions would have been, those conditions would have been, particularly if they didn't have those particularly if they didn't have those particularly if they didn't have those conditions in for the for the other the conditions in for the for the other the conditions in for the for the other the the siblings. You could be absolutely the siblings. You could be absolutely the siblings. You could be absolutely right. You could be absolutely right. right. You could be absolutely right. right. You could be absolutely right. And by the [laughter] way, you mentioned And by the [laughter] way, you mentioned And by the [laughter] way, you mentioned the siblings. the siblings. the siblings. >> Well, you mentioned the siblings, too. >> Well, you mentioned the siblings, too. >> Well, you mentioned the siblings, too. They could pay the money and they've They could pay the money and they've They could pay the money and they've decided not to. I mean, they could they decided not to. I mean, they could they decided not to. I mean, they could they could cobble together whatever Alan could cobble together whatever Alan could cobble together whatever Alan Jackson's retainer is, I'm sure, if they Jackson's retainer is, I'm sure, if they Jackson's retainer is, I'm sure, if they really wanted to. But I I get the really wanted to. But I I get the really wanted to. But I I get the impression that that uh now that the impression that that uh now that the impression that that uh now that the dust is settled, nobody's all that dust is settled, nobody's all that dust is settled, nobody's all that willing to give up a bunch of money to willing to give up a bunch of money to willing to give up a bunch of money to defend him for such a horrific crime.

defend him for such a horrific crime. defend him for such a horrific crime. And by the way, the public defenders And by the way, the public defenders And by the way, the public defenders office is certainly well equipped to office is certainly well equipped to office is certainly well equipped to handle this. Yeah. To handle this case. handle this. Yeah. To handle this case. handle this. Yeah. To handle this case. >> Well, we will leave it there for now uh >> Well, we will leave it there for now uh >> Well, we will leave it there for now uh and continue to follow it. I imagine and continue to follow it. I imagine and continue to follow it. I imagine it's not going to be heading to trial it's not going to be heading to trial it's not going to be heading to trial anytime soon. Let's stay in Los Angeles anytime soon. Let's stay in Los Angeles anytime soon. Let's stay in Los Angeles where a popular online influencer where a popular online influencer where a popular online influencer appeared in court alongside her father appeared in court alongside her father appeared in court alongside her father after an alleged plot to murder a former after an alleged plot to murder a former after an alleged plot to murder a former boy band member in a bitter custody boy band member in a bitter custody boy band member in a bitter custody dispute. Prosecutors say that Gabriella dispute. Prosecutors say that Gabriella dispute. Prosecutors say that Gabriella Gonzalez was involved in a conspiracy to Gonzalez was involved in a conspiracy to Gonzalez was involved in a conspiracy to kill Jack Avery, ultimately enlisting kill Jack Avery, ultimately enlisting kill Jack Avery, ultimately enlisting the help of Francisco Gonzalez and her the help of Francisco Gonzalez and her the help of Francisco Gonzalez and her ex-boyfriend Kai Cordri. The Gonzalez ex-boyfriend Kai Cordri. The Gonzalez ex-boyfriend Kai Cordri. The Gonzalez family's attempt to gain sole custody of family's attempt to gain sole custody of family's attempt to gain sole custody of daughter Lavender reportedly escalated daughter Lavender reportedly escalated daughter Lavender reportedly escalated from a hiring from hiring a private from a hiring from hiring a private from a hiring from hiring a private investigator to track Avery for dirt investigator to track Avery for dirt investigator to track Avery for dirt that could be used in court to allegedly that could be used in court to allegedly that could be used in court to allegedly paying Cordre $10,000 to track down a paying Cordre $10,000 to track down a paying Cordre $10,000 to track down a hitman. Mercifully, no one was hurt or hitman. Mercifully, no one was hurt or hitman. Mercifully, no one was hurt or killed in the endeavor, and the killed in the endeavor, and the killed in the endeavor, and the so-called hitman hired by the hamfisted so-called hitman hired by the hamfisted so-called hitman hired by the hamfisted crew was actually an undercover agent.

crew was actually an undercover agent. crew was actually an undercover agent. While the accused trio maintained their While the accused trio maintained their While the accused trio maintained their innocence in the pop in the in the innocence in the pop in the in the innocence in the pop in the in the charges, the pop star Avery has been charges, the pop star Avery has been charges, the pop star Avery has been granted full custody of the couple's granted full custody of the couple's granted full custody of the couple's child for the time being. Um, I'm child for the time being. Um, I'm child for the time being. Um, I'm always, always, always, >> this is just a total aside and has >> this is just a total aside and has >> this is just a total aside and has nothing to do with the law, but I'm nothing to do with the law, but I'm nothing to do with the law, but I'm always always always >> aside. I'm always amazed in these plots >> aside. I'm always amazed in these plots >> aside. I'm always amazed in these plots how the hitman many times turns out to how the hitman many times turns out to how the hitman many times turns out to be an undercover. be an undercover. be an undercover. >> And it makes me wonder if these >> And it makes me wonder if these >> And it makes me wonder if these undercovers know where to hang out, undercovers know where to hang out, undercovers know where to hang out, whether it's on the dark web or or whether it's on the dark web or or whether it's on the dark web or or wherever to pick up people looking to wherever to pick up people looking to wherever to pick up people looking to kill somebody because it's like I don't kill somebody because it's like I don't kill somebody because it's like I don't know how else. I've never thought about know how else. I've never thought about know how else. I've never thought about where would I go to find a hitman. But where would I go to find a hitman. But where would I go to find a hitman. But wherever they're going, undercovers wherever they're going, undercovers wherever they're going, undercovers happen to know that same spot. Do you happen to know that same spot. Do you happen to know that same spot. Do you follow me on this? I agree. And you follow me on this? I agree. And you follow me on this? I agree. And you know, if if I were if I were so know, if if I were if I were so know, if if I were if I were so inclined, which I'm not, I wouldn't even inclined, which I'm not, I wouldn't even inclined, which I'm not, I wouldn't even know where to go to find the dark web. I know where to go to find the dark web. I know where to go to find the dark web. I mean, [laughter] the dark web is mean, [laughter] the dark web is mean, [laughter] the dark web is completely dark to me.

completely dark to me. completely dark to me. >> Right. Right. Yeah. [clears throat] >> Right. Right. Yeah. [clears throat] >> Right. Right. Yeah. [clears throat] Yeah. I'm assuming it's www.dark Yeah. I'm assuming it's www.dark Yeah. I'm assuming it's www.dark webb or something, but I imagine it's webb or something, but I imagine it's webb or something, but I imagine it's far more difficult than that. far more difficult than that. far more difficult than that. >> And you know, it's the same thing in in >> And you know, it's the same thing in in >> And you know, it's the same thing in in the child, you know, in the the the child, you know, in the the the child, you know, in the the predators of children. They certainly predators of children. They certainly predators of children. They certainly have undercover people on those sites, have undercover people on those sites, have undercover people on those sites, uh, who are, you know, looking for uh, who are, you know, looking for uh, who are, you know, looking for someone who's out to, uh, you know, for someone who's out to, uh, you know, for someone who's out to, uh, you know, for for those those conversations with for those those conversations with for those those conversations with predators. So, they obviously know where predators. So, they obviously know where predators. So, they obviously know where their things are. My question is, if their things are. My question is, if their things are. My question is, if they know where they are, why don't they they know where they are, why don't they they know where they are, why don't they shut them down? I mean, I don't think shut them down? I mean, I don't think shut them down? I mean, I don't think there's a first amendment issue when there's a first amendment issue when there's a first amendment issue when you're out there offering your services you're out there offering your services you're out there offering your services to kill somebody or to provide a child to kill somebody or to provide a child to kill somebody or to provide a child for essay. for essay. for essay. >> Yeah. There's all sorts of enttrapment >> Yeah. There's all sorts of enttrapment >> Yeah. There's all sorts of enttrapment issues I'm sure are going to play a role issues I'm sure are going to play a role issues I'm sure are going to play a role in this thing that you know these in this thing that you know these in this thing that you know these undercovers have to be very careful. Are undercovers have to be very careful. Are undercovers have to be very careful. Are they are they advertising this and they are they advertising this and they are they advertising this and enticing someone or is it just you know enticing someone or is it just you know enticing someone or is it just you know somehow this person approached them? And somehow this person approached them? And somehow this person approached them? And again I don't know how that how that again I don't know how that how that again I don't know how that how that connection is made is something that's connection is made is something that's connection is made is something that's so curious to me and I imagine we'll so curious to me and I imagine we'll so curious to me and I imagine we'll find out as this continues to go on. But find out as this continues to go on. But find out as this continues to go on. But for now, just taking a look at it, it for now, just taking a look at it, it for now, just taking a look at it, it seems to me like a built-in defense for seems to me like a built-in defense for seems to me like a built-in defense for Gabriella at least would be to say, "I Gabriella at least would be to say, "I Gabriella at least would be to say, "I didn't have anything to do with this. My didn't have anything to do with this. My didn't have anything to do with this. My dad did it and my boyfriend did it, but dad did it and my boyfriend did it, but dad did it and my boyfriend did it, but I didn't do anything." Do you think I didn't do anything." Do you think I didn't do anything." Do you think those defenses work? Could she actually those defenses work? Could she actually those defenses work? Could she actually go that far as to throw her father under go that far as to throw her father under go that far as to throw her father under the bus? How does that play out in the bus? How does that play out in the bus? How does that play out in court, you think, of family pointing court, you think, of family pointing court, you think, of family pointing fingers at each other? Well, I don't fingers at each other? Well, I don't fingers at each other? Well, I don't think the juryy's going to be very think the juryy's going to be very think the juryy's going to be very pleased to see them doing that. Uh uh,

pleased to see them doing that. Uh uh, pleased to see them doing that. Uh uh, you know, I don't know. She's obviously you know, I don't know. She's obviously you know, I don't know. She's obviously the beneficiary of it because it was a the beneficiary of it because it was a the beneficiary of it because it was a really bitter custody battle and there really bitter custody battle and there really bitter custody battle and there are some evidence connecting her to it. are some evidence connecting her to it. are some evidence connecting her to it. She, like a lot of other uh defendants She, like a lot of other uh defendants She, like a lot of other uh defendants in this world are very chatty about in this world are very chatty about in this world are very chatty about things they shouldn't be chatty about. things they shouldn't be chatty about. things they shouldn't be chatty about. Uh, so there's that. I don't know what Uh, so there's that. I don't know what Uh, so there's that. I don't know what other evidence will come out of trial other evidence will come out of trial other evidence will come out of trial that will implicate her. Uh and I don't that will implicate her. Uh and I don't that will implicate her. Uh and I don't the father I assume will stay loyal but the father I assume will stay loyal but the father I assume will stay loyal but um I'm not so sure about the boyfriend um I'm not so sure about the boyfriend um I'm not so sure about the boyfriend as to whether he will you know he will as to whether he will you know he will as to whether he will you know he will stay loyal with regard to this this stay loyal with regard to this this stay loyal with regard to this this matter whether even law enforcement you matter whether even law enforcement you matter whether even law enforcement you know are is talking to his lawyer about know are is talking to his lawyer about know are is talking to his lawyer about doing something even though because doing something even though because doing something even though because nobody got killed as you say thankfully nobody got killed as you say thankfully nobody got killed as you say thankfully u so that the issue of going after the u so that the issue of going after the u so that the issue of going after the person who seems to be most involved is person who seems to be most involved is person who seems to be most involved is probably not is as apparent as it would probably not is as apparent as it would probably not is as apparent as it would be in other cases. But this is a crazy be in other cases. But this is a crazy be in other cases. But this is a crazy case. Did you look at some of it? The case. Did you look at some of it? The case. Did you look at some of it? The account on the dark web was Lizard King. account on the dark web was Lizard King. account on the dark web was Lizard King. Uh the uh father paid in Bitcoin. The Uh the uh father paid in Bitcoin. The Uh the uh father paid in Bitcoin. The It's just it's incredible to me.

It's just it's incredible to me. It's just it's incredible to me. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it it's >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it it's >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it it's incredible to me, too, because we, you incredible to me, too, because we, you incredible to me, too, because we, you know, it reminds me a little bit know, it reminds me a little bit know, it reminds me a little bit obviously of the Aden case out of out of obviously of the Aden case out of out of obviously of the Aden case out of out of Florida where you just you see these Florida where you just you see these Florida where you just you see these people who are, people who are, people who are, you know, I wouldn't call them living in you know, I wouldn't call them living in you know, I wouldn't call them living in the fringes of society, the the the the fringes of society, the the the the fringes of society, the the the Aden's nor the uh the the family we're Aden's nor the uh the the family we're Aden's nor the uh the the family we're discussing here. They're not like a discussing here. They're not like a discussing here. They're not like a crime involved family. They're not part crime involved family. They're not part crime involved family. They're not part of the mafia. they're not part of drug of the mafia. they're not part of drug of the mafia. they're not part of drug running or something like that where you running or something like that where you running or something like that where you expect them to be involved in trying to, expect them to be involved in trying to, expect them to be involved in trying to, you know, take out someone. Here's you know, take out someone. Here's you know, take out someone. Here's people living relatively, people living relatively, people living relatively, you know, functioning members of society you know, functioning members of society you know, functioning members of society type lifestyles and then I just can't type lifestyles and then I just can't type lifestyles and then I just can't imagine how do these conversations imagine how do these conversations imagine how do these conversations start? How does the conversation start start? How does the conversation start start? How does the conversation start between a daughter and father? Should we between a daughter and father? Should we between a daughter and father? Should we actually hire someone to kill him? That actually hire someone to kill him? That actually hire someone to kill him? That is just so evil to me. is just so evil to me. is just so evil to me. >> I agree. Don't you think it's >> I agree. Don't you think it's >> I agree. Don't you think it's incremental though? It doesn't start on incremental though? It doesn't start on incremental though? It doesn't start on day one with no how do we do it? you day one with no how do we do it? you day one with no how do we do it? you know, they inch towards it. And I do know, they inch towards it. And I do know, they inch towards it. And I do think I ex, you know, you're exactly think I ex, you know, you're exactly think I ex, you know, you're exactly right where you would expect this sort right where you would expect this sort right where you would expect this sort of behavior. But I just wonder if when of behavior. But I just wonder if when of behavior. But I just wonder if when you're looking at people who are very you're looking at people who are very you're looking at people who are very entitled whether they're really entitled whether they're really entitled whether they're really accustomed to getting their own way.

accustomed to getting their own way. accustomed to getting their own way. They're really accustomed to charting They're really accustomed to charting They're really accustomed to charting their own course and [clears throat] their own course and [clears throat] their own course and [clears throat] they're not at all accustomed to have they're not at all accustomed to have they're not at all accustomed to have somebody who says no. We remember Donna somebody who says no. We remember Donna somebody who says no. We remember Donna Eden says nobody beats that idea. Eden says nobody beats that idea. Eden says nobody beats that idea. >> Uh and that that's what we're seeing. >> Uh and that that's what we're seeing. >> Uh and that that's what we're seeing. You hit an impediment. You have no You hit an impediment. You have no You hit an impediment. You have no social skills to say, well, you know, we social skills to say, well, you know, we social skills to say, well, you know, we lost this one. Let's accommodate. Let's lost this one. Let's accommodate. Let's lost this one. Let's accommodate. Let's see how we can make it work. It's hey, I see how we can make it work. It's hey, I see how we can make it work. It's hey, I win. And you then you end up in this win. And you then you end up in this win. And you then you end up in this crazy situation where you're willing to crazy situation where you're willing to crazy situation where you're willing to hire somebody to kill somebody. And the hire somebody to kill somebody. And the hire somebody to kill somebody. And the father of the child. father of the child. father of the child. >> Incredible. >> Incredible. >> Incredible. >> Yeah. Yeah. Full-fledged entitlement is >> Yeah. Yeah. Full-fledged entitlement is >> Yeah. Yeah. Full-fledged entitlement is I think the root of all of it. and then I think the root of all of it. and then I think the root of all of it. and then it just kind of blossoms from there. But it just kind of blossoms from there. But it just kind of blossoms from there. But it it is amazing to me because when it it is amazing to me because when it it is amazing to me because when you're talking about a group of people you're talking about a group of people you're talking about a group of people again like the Adles, it's not one again like the Adles, it's not one again like the Adles, it's not one person decided to do something horrific, person decided to do something horrific, person decided to do something horrific, but they all made that decision in their but they all made that decision in their but they all made that decision in their heads to do something horrific to find a heads to do something horrific to find a heads to do something horrific to find a group of a family of people who all group of a family of people who all group of a family of people who all decide let's and not one of them is decide let's and not one of them is decide let's and not one of them is saying, "Wait a minute, this is nuts. saying, "Wait a minute, this is nuts. saying, "Wait a minute, this is nuts. Let's stop." you know, the father, the Let's stop." you know, the father, the Let's stop." you know, the father, the bo boyfriend in this situation, the the bo boyfriend in this situation, the the bo boyfriend in this situation, the the mother and father and everybody else in mother and father and everybody else in mother and father and everybody else in the aden situation. You would think one the aden situation. You would think one the aden situation. You would think one person could have raised their hand and person could have raised their hand and person could have raised their hand and said, "We're all joking here, right?"

said, "We're all joking here, right?" said, "We're all joking here, right?" Well, this is all just big talk. We're Well, this is all just big talk. We're Well, this is all just big talk. We're actually not going to do this. Right. actually not going to do this. Right. actually not going to do this. Right. [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] >> You're upholding the you're you're >> You're upholding the you're you're >> You're upholding the you're you're you're exalting the hold out juror here, you're exalting the hold out juror here, you're exalting the hold out juror here, huh? [laughter] huh? [laughter] huh? [laughter] >> Right. Right. Exactly. Um, all right. We >> Right. Right. Exactly. Um, all right. We >> Right. Right. Exactly. Um, all right. We will continue to follow that one. But will continue to follow that one. But will continue to follow that one. But let's get to this last case because this let's get to this last case because this let's get to this last case because this is I think uh the most interesting for is I think uh the most interesting for is I think uh the most interesting for you and I. Out of Penllis County, you and I. Out of Penllis County, you and I. Out of Penllis County, Florida trial is underway for a plastic Florida trial is underway for a plastic Florida trial is underway for a plastic surgeon accused of killing a lawyer amid surgeon accused of killing a lawyer amid surgeon accused of killing a lawyer amid ongoing civil litigation. Tamas Kazowski ongoing civil litigation. Tamas Kazowski ongoing civil litigation. Tamas Kazowski opted to serve as his own representation opted to serve as his own representation opted to serve as his own representation in his death penalty trial for the slain in his death penalty trial for the slain in his death penalty trial for the slain of Steven Kazzy who represented multiple of Steven Kazzy who represented multiple of Steven Kazzy who represented multiple clients. Kazowski had filed lawsuits clients. Kazowski had filed lawsuits clients. Kazowski had filed lawsuits against. Kazzy was last seen entering against. Kazzy was last seen entering against. Kazzy was last seen entering the bathroom at his law practice and the bathroom at his law practice and the bathroom at his law practice and never seen exiting, though his body has never seen exiting, though his body has never seen exiting, though his body has never been found. Investigators arrested never been found. Investigators arrested never been found. Investigators arrested Kazowski days after the disappearance. Kazowski days after the disappearance. Kazowski days after the disappearance. Detectives claimed that when they Detectives claimed that when they Detectives claimed that when they detained Kazowski after a traffic stop, detained Kazowski after a traffic stop, detained Kazowski after a traffic stop, they uncovered a ballistic vest soaked they uncovered a ballistic vest soaked they uncovered a ballistic vest soaked in blood, a taser type device, brass in blood, a taser type device, brass in blood, a taser type device, brass knuckles, tape, and intravenous knuckles, tape, and intravenous knuckles, tape, and intravenous sedatives with accompanying syringes.

sedatives with accompanying syringes. sedatives with accompanying syringes. Despite the reported mountain of Despite the reported mountain of Despite the reported mountain of evidence, Kazowski chose not to have a evidence, Kazowski chose not to have a evidence, Kazowski chose not to have a lawyer or jury and instead rolled the lawyer or jury and instead rolled the lawyer or jury and instead rolled the dice at a bench trial. Okay, this case dice at a bench trial. Okay, this case dice at a bench trial. Okay, this case is wild. So, just so everybody is wild. So, just so everybody is wild. So, just so everybody understands, Kazowski is a plastic understands, Kazowski is a plastic understands, Kazowski is a plastic surgeon. He was working apparently with surgeon. He was working apparently with surgeon. He was working apparently with different with a law firm on contingency different with a law firm on contingency different with a law firm on contingency basis for different types of cases. And basis for different types of cases. And basis for different types of cases. And in those cases, those civil cases, some in those cases, those civil cases, some in those cases, those civil cases, some of them didn't settle for any money, so of them didn't settle for any money, so of them didn't settle for any money, so he didn't get paid. That didn't sit well he didn't get paid. That didn't sit well he didn't get paid. That didn't sit well with him, so he decided to sue. By the with him, so he decided to sue. By the with him, so he decided to sue. By the way, fun fact, he represented himself in way, fun fact, he represented himself in way, fun fact, he represented himself in that civil suit as well. So the guy that civil suit as well. So the guy that civil suit as well. So the guy doesn't like lawyers. I got no problem doesn't like lawyers. I got no problem doesn't like lawyers. I got no problem with that. But he doesn't like with that. But he doesn't like with that. But he doesn't like >> vice versa, >> vice versa, >> vice versa, >> right? Or vice versa, right? [laughter] >> right? Or vice versa, right? [laughter] >> right? Or vice versa, right? [laughter] Very good point. So he decides to sue. Very good point. So he decides to sue. Very good point. So he decides to sue. And the person representing the law firm And the person representing the law firm And the person representing the law firm is this guy Kazzy. And it becomes very is this guy Kazzy. And it becomes very is this guy Kazzy. And it becomes very personal for Kazowski. He allegedly personal for Kazowski. He allegedly personal for Kazowski. He allegedly murders him in the bathroom of the law murders him in the bathroom of the law murders him in the bathroom of the law firm and he is seen with like a a a cart firm and he is seen with like a a a cart firm and he is seen with like a a a cart carting out an object later on that day.

carting out an object later on that day. carting out an object later on that day. Okay, Okay, Okay, that's all crazy, but add to it. He that's all crazy, but add to it. He that's all crazy, but add to it. He doesn't He's looking at the death doesn't He's looking at the death doesn't He's looking at the death penalty. He doesn't He's representing penalty. He doesn't He's representing penalty. He doesn't He's representing himself. So, he's waved his right to an himself. So, he's waved his right to an himself. So, he's waved his right to an attorney. He's waved his right to a jury attorney. He's waved his right to a jury attorney. He's waved his right to a jury trial. And if you've been watching any trial. And if you've been watching any trial. And if you've been watching any of the trial, he's essentially unplugged of the trial, he's essentially unplugged of the trial, he's essentially unplugged from the entire trial. He's not from the entire trial. He's not from the entire trial. He's not cross-examining people. He's barely cross-examining people. He's barely cross-examining people. He's barely raising objections. He's kind of sitting raising objections. He's kind of sitting raising objections. He's kind of sitting there as if he's bored by the whole there as if he's bored by the whole there as if he's bored by the whole thing. My question to you is, thing. My question to you is, thing. My question to you is, is this going to be a problem for the is this going to be a problem for the is this going to be a problem for the judge if the judge does decide to judge if the judge does decide to judge if the judge does decide to sentence him to the death penalty? I sentence him to the death penalty? I sentence him to the death penalty? I mean, is he creating so much lack of mean, is he creating so much lack of mean, is he creating so much lack of interest that a judge be like, I I just interest that a judge be like, I I just interest that a judge be like, I I just can't with good conscience sentence you can't with good conscience sentence you can't with good conscience sentence you to the death penalty? to the death penalty? to the death penalty? >> Yeah. You know, I I once wrote a poem. I >> Yeah. You know, I I once wrote a poem. I >> Yeah. You know, I I once wrote a poem. I used to write poems for my law students used to write poems for my law students used to write poems for my law students to summarize cases and they were all I to summarize cases and they were all I to summarize cases and they were all I shouldn't say poem rhymes. And I and and shouldn't say poem rhymes. And I and and shouldn't say poem rhymes. And I and and I I think I ended it with so now will I I think I ended it with so now will I I think I ended it with so now will this guy get a second chance, you know, this guy get a second chance, you know, this guy get a second chance, you know, because of how badly he did the first because of how badly he did the first because of how badly he did the first time around? You know what the law is?

time around? You know what the law is? time around? You know what the law is? He made a knowing voluntary waiver. The He made a knowing voluntary waiver. The He made a knowing voluntary waiver. The judge put it all on the record and he judge put it all on the record and he judge put it all on the record and he agreed agreed agreed that he was going agreed agreed agreed that he was going agreed agreed agreed that he was going to he was going to represent himself. So to he was going to represent himself. So to he was going to represent himself. So in theory, you should be held to that in theory, you should be held to that in theory, you should be held to that choice. Period. You don't get to revisit choice. Period. You don't get to revisit choice. Period. You don't get to revisit and get two two, you know, two bites at and get two two, you know, two bites at and get two two, you know, two bites at the apple because you did it wrong the the apple because you did it wrong the the apple because you did it wrong the first time and now you're going to be first time and now you're going to be first time and now you're going to be able to do it again. In practice though, able to do it again. In practice though, able to do it again. In practice though, Josh, I agree with you that it's pretty Josh, I agree with you that it's pretty Josh, I agree with you that it's pretty difficult. The death penalty is is such difficult. The death penalty is is such difficult. The death penalty is is such a uh you know an enormous penalty. It's a uh you know an enormous penalty. It's a uh you know an enormous penalty. It's pretty difficult to impose it on someone pretty difficult to impose it on someone pretty difficult to impose it on someone when you think he's really not you know when you think he's really not you know when you think he's really not you know all there. Let me say but I have a third all there. Let me say but I have a third all there. Let me say but I have a third hand here which is he seems to be he you hand here which is he seems to be he you hand here which is he seems to be he you can certainly see him as calculating and can certainly see him as calculating and can certainly see him as calculating and doing this purposefully just to doing this purposefully just to doing this purposefully just to >> just to sort of throw something at the >> just to sort of throw something at the >> just to sort of throw something at the system. The only thing I heard him system. The only thing I heard him system. The only thing I heard him object to so far is the fact there was a object to so far is the fact there was a object to so far is the fact there was a microphone in front of him. Did you hear microphone in front of him. Did you hear microphone in front of him. Did you hear that? That that that Oh my god. He said that? That that that Oh my god. He said that? That that that Oh my god. He said he wanted the microphone removed and the he wanted the microphone removed and the he wanted the microphone removed and the judge said, "Well, you know, if you want judge said, "Well, you know, if you want judge said, "Well, you know, if you want to make an objection or something, you to make an objection or something, you to make an objection or something, you need the microphone." No, he didn't want need the microphone." No, he didn't want need the microphone." No, he didn't want it there because he would be overheard.

it there because he would be overheard. it there because he would be overheard. The judge said, "But there's nobody with The judge said, "But there's nobody with The judge said, "But there's nobody with you. He's got he's got counsel, Bob, but you. He's got he's got counsel, Bob, but you. He's got he's got counsel, Bob, but they're in the gallery." And and so then they're in the gallery." And and so then they're in the gallery." And and so then he said, "Well, I may want to talk to he said, "Well, I may want to talk to he said, "Well, I may want to talk to myself." So the they removed the myself." So the they removed the myself." So the they removed the microphone. Now that kind of mentality microphone. Now that kind of mentality microphone. Now that kind of mentality you could say is somebody who just you could say is somebody who just you could say is somebody who just thinks, you know, I'm going to argue thinks, you know, I'm going to argue thinks, you know, I'm going to argue about things that you shouldn't be about things that you shouldn't be about things that you shouldn't be arguing about. In the civil trial, he arguing about. In the civil trial, he arguing about. In the civil trial, he argued about not getting discovery. They argued about not getting discovery. They argued about not getting discovery. They had to appoint a a special master who had to appoint a a special master who had to appoint a a special master who concluded you got every document you're concluded you got every document you're concluded you got every document you're supposed to get. So I agree with you. supposed to get. So I agree with you. supposed to get. So I agree with you. And yet I have this view that this guy And yet I have this view that this guy And yet I have this view that this guy maybe is someone that a judge would say. maybe is someone that a judge would say. maybe is someone that a judge would say. It's not that you're, you know, you're It's not that you're, you know, you're It's not that you're, you know, you're you're just not able to comprehend and you're just not able to comprehend and you're just not able to comprehend and you made a bad decision. You're somebody you made a bad decision. You're somebody you made a bad decision. You're somebody who knew exactly what you were doing, who knew exactly what you were doing, who knew exactly what you were doing, you know, depending on the system not to you know, depending on the system not to you know, depending on the system not to go forward with your choice. go forward with your choice. go forward with your choice. >> I mean, on paper, >> I mean, on paper, >> I mean, on paper, you're right. He's got a he's got a you're right. He's got a he's got a you're right. He's got a he's got a right to represent himself and the judge right to represent himself and the judge right to represent himself and the judge took all the proper waiverss and was took all the proper waiverss and was took all the proper waiverss and was very thorough about it because he could very thorough about it because he could very thorough about it because he could see all these problems on the horizon.

see all these problems on the horizon. see all these problems on the horizon. All the proper waiverss were taken. He's All the proper waiverss were taken. He's All the proper waiverss were taken. He's representing himself now. If he were representing himself now. If he were representing himself now. If he were represented by an attorney and that represented by an attorney and that represented by an attorney and that attorney sat on his hands and didn't attorney sat on his hands and didn't attorney sat on his hands and didn't give an opening statement and waved jury give an opening statement and waved jury give an opening statement and waved jury trial and didn't object and didn't trial and didn't object and didn't trial and didn't object and didn't cross-examine anyone, you would say, cross-examine anyone, you would say, cross-examine anyone, you would say, "Oh, well, this is going towards a "Oh, well, this is going towards a "Oh, well, this is going towards a ineffective assistance of counsel that ineffective assistance of counsel that ineffective assistance of counsel that that you know, you you the Clay clearly that you know, you you the Clay clearly that you know, you you the Clay clearly wasn't doing what a reasonable attorney wasn't doing what a reasonable attorney wasn't doing what a reasonable attorney would do." But there's no argument for would do." But there's no argument for would do." But there's no argument for that. Now, if you're the attorney, if that. Now, if you're the attorney, if that. Now, if you're the attorney, if you're representing yourself, you can't you're representing yourself, you can't you're representing yourself, you can't go back and say, "Hey, I misrepresented go back and say, "Hey, I misrepresented go back and say, "Hey, I misrepresented myself in my own defense." Like, you myself in my own defense." Like, you myself in my own defense." Like, you that that is not something we're going that that is not something we're going that that is not something we're going to allow for. But he's essentially doing to allow for. But he's essentially doing to allow for. But he's essentially doing that. And I he's even said that if this that. And I he's even said that if this that. And I he's even said that if this goes to a penalty phase, he he's he's goes to a penalty phase, he he's he's goes to a penalty phase, he he's he's bringing in no mitigating evidence. So I bringing in no mitigating evidence. So I bringing in no mitigating evidence. So I I almost feel like I almost feel like I almost feel like the judge also has to be concerned about the judge also has to be concerned about the judge also has to be concerned about setting a very dangerous precedent of setting a very dangerous precedent of setting a very dangerous precedent of other of other defendants doing this other of other defendants doing this other of other defendants doing this themselves because themselves because themselves because part of me says he should get what part of me says he should get what part of me says he should get what exactly what he wants. Like if he's if exactly what he wants. Like if he's if exactly what he wants. Like if he's if he doesn't want to do anything, he has he doesn't want to do anything, he has he doesn't want to do anything, he has every right to not do anything. And if every right to not do anything. And if every right to not do anything. And if that means that he's found guilty, then that means that he's found guilty, then that means that he's found guilty, then so be it. And if that means that they so be it. And if that means that they so be it. And if that means that they decide on the death penalty, then so be decide on the death penalty, then so be decide on the death penalty, then so be it. That's his right.

it. That's his right. it. That's his right. >> Yeah. You know, it sounds a little like >> Yeah. You know, it sounds a little like >> Yeah. You know, it sounds a little like suicide by cop almost, right? suicide by cop almost, right? suicide by cop almost, right? >> He wants out and he's using the system >> He wants out and he's using the system >> He wants out and he's using the system to do it because he doesn't want to do to do it because he doesn't want to do to do it because he doesn't want to do it himself if that's what he's up to. it himself if that's what he's up to. it himself if that's what he's up to. It's just hard to tell what it is that It's just hard to tell what it is that It's just hard to tell what it is that you know that that's driving him except you know that that's driving him except you know that that's driving him except that uh it is not what one would think a that uh it is not what one would think a that uh it is not what one would think a rational person in this situation would rational person in this situation would rational person in this situation would be doing. Now, some of it, Josh, I mean, be doing. Now, some of it, Josh, I mean, be doing. Now, some of it, Josh, I mean, you could make a choice as a lawyer, a you could make a choice as a lawyer, a you could make a choice as a lawyer, a reasonably competent lawyer, not to reasonably competent lawyer, not to reasonably competent lawyer, not to cross-examine some of the earlier cross-examine some of the earlier cross-examine some of the earlier witnesses. witnesses. witnesses. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Depending on your defense, and if your >> Depending on your defense, and if your >> Depending on your defense, and if your defense is going to be you can't prove defense is going to be you can't prove defense is going to be you can't prove the guy's dead, the guy's dead, the guy's dead, >> uh, and the forensics evidence and the >> uh, and the forensics evidence and the >> uh, and the forensics evidence and the DNA evidence, you know, there's too much DNA evidence, you know, there's too much DNA evidence, you know, there's too much doubt about it, then you may not be doubt about it, then you may not be doubt about it, then you may not be going after some of the earlier going after some of the earlier going after some of the earlier witnesses. And I think a lawyer who did witnesses. And I think a lawyer who did witnesses. And I think a lawyer who did that could make a credible claim that he that could make a credible claim that he that could make a credible claim that he was that he was making tactical was that he was making tactical was that he was making tactical decisions in support of his client. Uh I decisions in support of his client. Uh I decisions in support of his client. Uh I don't know about asking the the judge don't know about asking the the judge don't know about asking the the judge rather than the jury. I mean that one rather than the jury. I mean that one rather than the jury. I mean that one seems to me to be uh I don't know why seems to me to be uh I don't know why seems to me to be uh I don't know why anybody would make that choice on sort anybody would make that choice on sort anybody would make that choice on sort of on the surface unless there was of on the surface unless there was of on the surface unless there was something specific about the case. I something specific about the case. I something specific about the case. I don't see anything about the case that don't see anything about the case that don't see anything about the case that say say say >> but again a tactical decision that is >> but again a tactical decision that is >> but again a tactical decision that is sometimes made you know.

sometimes made you know. sometimes made you know. >> Exactly. I mean, I'm just imagining >> Exactly. I mean, I'm just imagining >> Exactly. I mean, I'm just imagining imagining he gets convicted, which it imagining he gets convicted, which it imagining he gets convicted, which it sounds like he will, and let's say the sounds like he will, and let's say the sounds like he will, and let's say the judge does sentence him to the death judge does sentence him to the death judge does sentence him to the death penalty, and this goes up on appeal, penalty, and this goes up on appeal, penalty, and this goes up on appeal, which it will automatically. which it will automatically. which it will automatically. What is the argument? What is the What is the argument? What is the What is the argument? What is the argument that he was that we we argument that he was that we we argument that he was that we we shouldn't be allowed to do that because shouldn't be allowed to do that because shouldn't be allowed to do that because he didn't put up a good enough fight? he didn't put up a good enough fight? he didn't put up a good enough fight? Now, you're getting into kind of a there Now, you're getting into kind of a there Now, you're getting into kind of a there none of his rights were abused, right? none of his rights were abused, right? none of his rights were abused, right? None no none of his due process was None no none of his due process was None no none of his due process was abused. Nothing constitutionally in abused. Nothing constitutionally in abused. Nothing constitutionally in error took place. We're just making a a error took place. We're just making a a error took place. We're just making a a um a quantitative like a qualitative um a quantitative like a qualitative um a quantitative like a qualitative assessment of his defense. We just don't assessment of his defense. We just don't assessment of his defense. We just don't feel it was good enough. feel it was good enough. feel it was good enough. >> Right. What back up a little. If he had >> Right. What back up a little. If he had >> Right. What back up a little. If he had decided at the outset to say, "I'm going decided at the outset to say, "I'm going decided at the outset to say, "I'm going to plead to the to the indictment and to plead to the to the indictment and to plead to the to the indictment and it's a capital case and so I plead to it it's a capital case and so I plead to it it's a capital case and so I plead to it all." Would the system have allowed him all." Would the system have allowed him all." Would the system have allowed him to make that choice? to make that choice? to make that choice? >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> All right. So, how is this different >> All right. So, how is this different >> All right. So, how is this different then if he decides to to, you know, to then if he decides to to, you know, to then if he decides to to, you know, to thumb his nose at the system and put thumb his nose at the system and put thumb his nose at the system and put them in a situation where he makes them them in a situation where he makes them them in a situation where he makes them go through the trial?

go through the trial? go through the trial? >> And by the way, >> And by the way, >> And by the way, >> you're absolutely right. >> you're absolutely right. >> you're absolutely right. >> He may choose not to appeal or do his >> He may choose not to appeal or do his >> He may choose not to appeal or do his own appeal and do nothing on the appeal. own appeal and do nothing on the appeal. own appeal and do nothing on the appeal. >> And then so then what would the appella >> And then so then what would the appella >> And then so then what would the appella court do? court do? court do? >> I think they would ring their hands a >> I think they would ring their hands a >> I think they would ring their hands a lot and then come to the same conclusion lot and then come to the same conclusion lot and then come to the same conclusion we did and say, "I don't see anything we did and say, "I don't see anything we did and say, "I don't see anything wrong here. It's it it bothers us, but I wrong here. It's it it bothers us, but I wrong here. It's it it bothers us, but I don't see anything wrong here. don't see anything wrong here. don't see anything wrong here. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. Bizarre, bizarre, bizarre case. >> Yeah. Bizarre, bizarre, bizarre case. >> Yeah. Bizarre, bizarre, bizarre case. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Well, I'm so glad that you and I got to >> Well, I'm so glad that you and I got to >> Well, I'm so glad that you and I got to break it down and come to all the break it down and come to all the break it down and come to all the correct answers as we [laughter] as we correct answers as we [laughter] as we correct answers as we [laughter] as we always do. Um it's always a pleasure always do. Um it's always a pleasure always do. Um it's always a pleasure talking to you. Uh where can people find talking to you. Uh where can people find talking to you. Uh where can people find out more about you? Tell us about your out more about you? Tell us about your out more about you? Tell us about your your uh YouTube channel and anything your uh YouTube channel and anything your uh YouTube channel and anything else you got going on. else you got going on. else you got going on. >> Yeah, well the YouTube channel is Profo >> Yeah, well the YouTube channel is Profo >> Yeah, well the YouTube channel is Profo Explains and I also have a Facebook page Explains and I also have a Facebook page Explains and I also have a Facebook page with Profo Explains. And if you have a with Profo Explains. And if you have a with Profo Explains. And if you have a question, you can get me at question, you can get me at question, you can get me at askprofgmail.com. askprofgmail.com. askprofgmail.com. And uh I enjoy doing it a lot. And I'm And uh I enjoy doing it a lot. And I'm And uh I enjoy doing it a lot. And I'm very sorry that the u the the um their very sorry that the u the the um their very sorry that the u the the um their Fernandez Fernandez Fernandez Sana trial is not now moving into Sana trial is not now moving into Sana trial is not now moving into Shannana Gardner. It seems to me Shannana Gardner. It seems to me Shannana Gardner. It seems to me everything's being postponed until next everything's being postponed until next everything's being postponed until next year. And I think that's kind of rude if year. And I think that's kind of rude if year. And I think that's kind of rude if he's defend Ben.

he's defend Ben. he's defend Ben. >> So >> So >> So >> yeah, we're running out of stuff. We're >> yeah, we're running out of stuff. We're >> yeah, we're running out of stuff. We're running out of I think we all need a running out of I think we all need a running out of I think we all need a break though after that Lindsey Clancy break though after that Lindsey Clancy break though after that Lindsey Clancy trial. I think we all go for a breather. trial. I think we all go for a breather. trial. I think we all go for a breather. >> Thank you again. I'm your host Josh >> Thank you again. I'm your host Josh >> Thank you again. I'm your host Josh Ritter. You can find me on Instagram and Ritter. You can find me on Instagram and Ritter. You can find me on Instagram and Twitter at Joshua Ritter Esq. And if you Twitter at Joshua Ritter Esq. And if you Twitter at Joshua Ritter Esq. And if you want to hear my thoughts and coverage on want to hear my thoughts and coverage on want to hear my thoughts and coverage on even more true crime cases, please check even more true crime cases, please check even more true crime cases, please check out my YouTube channel, Courtroom out my YouTube channel, Courtroom out my YouTube channel, Courtroom Confidential. And of course, you can Confidential. And of course, you can Confidential. And of course, you can find all of our sidebar episodes find all of our sidebar episodes find all of our sidebar episodes wherever you get your podcast. And we wherever you get your podcast. And we wherever you get your podcast. And we would love to hear from you. If you've would love to hear from you. If you've would love to hear from you. If you've got questions or comments you'd like us got questions or comments you'd like us got questions or comments you'd like us to address, please tweet us your to address, please tweet us your to address, please tweet us your questions with the #TCN sidebar. And questions with the #TCN sidebar. And questions with the #TCN sidebar. And thank you for joining us at the True thank you for joining us at the True thank you for joining us at the True Crime News Sidebar. [music]