Women allege assault at the hands of cultlike leader in ‘Pearadise’ plus-size community

A word of warning, this podcast explores A word of warning, this podcast explores graphic and disturbing stories and graphic and disturbing stories and graphic and disturbing stories and includes some strong language. It includes some strong language. It includes some strong language. It therefore may not be suitable for our therefore may not be suitable for our therefore may not be suitable for our young listeners or other folks who may young listeners or other folks who may young listeners or other folks who may find it disturbing. [music] find it disturbing. [music] find it disturbing. [music] Hello and welcome to a special edition Hello and welcome to a special edition Hello and welcome to a special edition of True Crime News the podcast. I'm your of True Crime News the podcast. I'm your of True Crime News the podcast. I'm your host Anna Garcia. Everyone in the world host Anna Garcia. Everyone in the world host Anna Garcia. Everyone in the world of true crime has a story to tell about of true crime has a story to tell about of true crime has a story to tell about a case that they worked on or maybe they a case that they worked on or maybe they a case that they worked on or maybe they lived through. Some are high profile, lived through. Some are high profile, lived through. Some are high profile, some you have never heard of but they're some you have never heard of but they're some you have never heard of but they're all fascinating. Today's case is about a all fascinating. Today's case is about a all fascinating. Today's case is about a Las Vegas mansion run by a man who Las Vegas mansion run by a man who Las Vegas mansion run by a man who admits to being obsessed and sexually admits to being obsessed and sexually admits to being obsessed and sexually attracted to plus size women. So he attracted to plus size women. So he attracted to plus size women. So he built a community where women could built a community where women could built a community where women could visit or live with him. Was it a visit or live with him. Was it a visit or live with him. Was it a commune? Was it a cult? Was it just commune? Was it a cult? Was it just commune? Was it a cult? Was it just consenting adults having fun? Many consenting adults having fun? Many consenting adults having fun? Many victims say that they were intimidated, victims say that they were intimidated, victims say that they were intimidated, coerced, and assaulted. It is a story coerced, and assaulted. It is a story coerced, and assaulted. It is a story about the lines between celebration and about the lines between celebration and about the lines between celebration and fetish as well as the question of fetish as well as the question of fetish as well as the question of consent. And the survivors who came consent. And the survivors who came consent. And the survivors who came forward publicly say that they have been forward publicly say that they have been forward publicly say that they have been sued to shut them up. Our guests today sued to shut them up. Our guests today sued to shut them up. Our guests today are the team behind this new are the team behind this new are the team behind this new Investigation Discovery docu-series, Big Investigation Discovery docu-series, Big Investigation Discovery docu-series, Big Girls Wanted: Escaping Paradise. A Girls Wanted: Escaping Paradise. A Girls Wanted: Escaping Paradise. A documentary that examines if a place for documentary that examines if a place for documentary that examines if a place for plus size women was really a front for plus size women was really a front for plus size women was really a front for the organizer to allegedly violate women the organizer to allegedly violate women the organizer to allegedly violate women which he denies. Here's a clip.

which he denies. Here's a clip. which he denies. Here's a clip. >> I want to feel loved. I want to feel >> I want to feel loved. I want to feel >> I want to feel loved. I want to feel desired. And that's not something that desired. And that's not something that desired. And that's not something that happens often to a fat girl. to a fat girl. >> I was scrolling on TikTok. This guy >> I was scrolling on TikTok. This guy >> I was scrolling on TikTok. This guy holds up a pair of bathing suit bottoms holds up a pair of bathing suit bottoms holds up a pair of bathing suit bottoms and he says if you can fit in these, I and he says if you can fit in these, I and he says if you can fit in these, I want you in my pool. want you in my pool. want you in my pool. >> Welcome to paradise. >> Welcome to paradise. >> Welcome to paradise. >> Stefan is a TikTok creator living in >> Stefan is a TikTok creator living in >> Stefan is a TikTok creator living in this mansion in Vegas with all these this mansion in Vegas with all these this mansion in Vegas with all these plus size women. plus size women. plus size women. >> Everybody deserves to be treated with >> Everybody deserves to be treated with >> Everybody deserves to be treated with respect. respect. respect. >> But he's selling a fantasy. >> But he's selling a fantasy. >> But he's selling a fantasy. >> You'll be loved here, worshipped like a >> You'll be loved here, worshipped like a >> You'll be loved here, worshipped like a goddess. goddess. goddess. >> But, they don't tell you the price that >> But, they don't tell you the price that >> But, they don't tell you the price that you pay. you pay. you pay. >> You have this older man with women >> You have this older man with women >> You have this older man with women [music] half his age. [music] half his age. [music] half his age. That power dynamic is predatory. That power dynamic is predatory. That power dynamic is predatory. >> He says, "This is just a body-positive >> He says, "This is just a body-positive >> He says, "This is just a body-positive space, and I just love fat women, and space, and I just love fat women, and space, and I just love fat women, and it's totally innocent when it's totally it's totally innocent when it's totally it's totally innocent when it's totally not." not." not." >> There was no consent. >> There was no consent. >> There was no consent. >> Paradise is not a safe and positive >> Paradise is not a safe and positive >> Paradise is not a safe and positive place. place. place. >> This man is a predator. No one deserves >> This man is a predator. No one deserves >> This man is a predator. No one deserves to be a victim to him.

to be a victim to him. to be a victim to him. >> He gets off sexually watching people eat >> He gets off sexually watching people eat >> He gets off sexually watching people eat and gain weight. It can kill you. and gain weight. It can kill you. and gain weight. It can kill you. >> 911 emergency, do you need police, fire, >> 911 emergency, do you need police, fire, >> 911 emergency, do you need police, fire, or medical? or medical? or medical? >> Medical. >> Medical. >> Medical. >> Had it not been for Paradise, >> Had it not been for Paradise, >> Had it not been for Paradise, she wouldn't be alive today. she wouldn't be alive today. she wouldn't be alive today. >> I need to finally tell my story. >> I need to finally tell my story. >> I need to finally tell my story. >> Are you a dangerous man? >> Big Girls Wanted, Escaping Paradise, an >> Big Girls Wanted, Escaping Paradise, an ID documentary event, premieres June ID documentary event, premieres June ID documentary event, premieres June 10th on ID. 10th on ID. 10th on ID. >> So, joining us now are the filmmakers, >> So, joining us now are the filmmakers, >> So, joining us now are the filmmakers, Tara Malone and executive producer Tara Malone and executive producer Tara Malone and executive producer Michael Hirschhorn. Michael Hirschhorn. Michael Hirschhorn. Welcome, you two. It's such a pleasure. Welcome, you two. It's such a pleasure. Welcome, you two. It's such a pleasure. >> Thank you for having us. Appreciate it. >> Thank you for having us. Appreciate it. >> Thank you for having us. Appreciate it. >> Um as I was saying, this this is really >> Um as I was saying, this this is really >> Um as I was saying, this this is really fascinating. This this fascinating. This this fascinating. This this case is fascinating. I I watched the case is fascinating. I I watched the case is fascinating. I I watched the three parts last night in preparation three parts last night in preparation three parts last night in preparation for your interview cuz our producer, for your interview cuz our producer, for your interview cuz our producer, Will Updyke, said, "You really have to Will Updyke, said, "You really have to Will Updyke, said, "You really have to see this to understand it, or you will see this to understand it, or you will see this to understand it, or you will not be able to do the interview." And he not be able to do the interview." And he not be able to do the interview." And he was absolutely was absolutely was absolutely right. This is about a place called right. This is about a place called right. This is about a place called Paradise, spelled p e a r, and it is Paradise, spelled p e a r, and it is Paradise, spelled p e a r, and it is about how women are shaped like pears about how women are shaped like pears about how women are shaped like pears because the man who runs this in Las because the man who runs this in Las because the man who runs this in Las Vegas celebrates, he says, plus-sized Vegas celebrates, he says, plus-sized Vegas celebrates, he says, plus-sized women. And at first, I was like, women. And at first, I was like, women. And at first, I was like, "What is this? Where is this docuseries "What is this? Where is this docuseries "What is this? Where is this docuseries going?" But, it's so layered. It's so I going?" But, it's so layered. It's so I going?" But, it's so layered. It's so I have to tell you I I think you two did a have to tell you I I think you two did a have to tell you I I think you two did a beautiful job of navigating a very

beautiful job of navigating a very beautiful job of navigating a very difficult story to tell. difficult story to tell. difficult story to tell. >> Well, that that's a >> Well, that that's a >> Well, that that's a A a lovely intro and B a really perfect A a lovely intro and B a really perfect A a lovely intro and B a really perfect description of the project. Credit here description of the project. Credit here description of the project. Credit here goes to Tara because I think Tara goes to Tara because I think Tara goes to Tara because I think Tara brought a lot of empathy and a lot of brought a lot of empathy and a lot of brought a lot of empathy and a lot of nuance and a lot of thoughtfulness to a nuance and a lot of thoughtfulness to a nuance and a lot of thoughtfulness to a project that could very easily have project that could very easily have project that could very easily have careered off in a kind of random careered off in a kind of random careered off in a kind of random direction. So, she should answer this. direction. So, she should answer this. direction. So, she should answer this. >> Thank you, Michael, and thank you, Anna. >> Thank you, Michael, and thank you, Anna. >> Thank you, Michael, and thank you, Anna. Truly, it's it's Truly, it's it's Truly, it's it's so gratifying to hear you see what we so gratifying to hear you see what we so gratifying to hear you see what we see in the story. see in the story. see in the story. It is on every level just a complex It is on every level just a complex It is on every level just a complex set of set of set of personalities and facts and, you know, personalities and facts and, you know, personalities and facts and, you know, getting into it it was to do it justice, getting into it it was to do it justice, getting into it it was to do it justice, we we needed to find that balance. We we we needed to find that balance. We we we needed to find that balance. We needed to lean into the nuances. We needed to lean into the nuances. We needed to lean into the nuances. We needed to, you know, needed to, you know, needed to, you know, live with discomfort at times and run live with discomfort at times and run live with discomfort at times and run with that and I think it's all the with that and I think it's all the with that and I think it's all the better for it. better for it. better for it. >> And, you know, on this podcast we have >> And, you know, on this podcast we have >> And, you know, on this podcast we have examined a lot of situations where examined a lot of situations where examined a lot of situations where you know, and I use the term very you know, and I use the term very you know, and I use the term very carefully, whether it's like a commune carefully, whether it's like a commune carefully, whether it's like a commune living situation, which then sometimes living situation, which then sometimes living situation, which then sometimes members worry or the people on the members worry or the people on the members worry or the people on the outside can look at it and say, you outside can look at it and say, you outside can look at it and say, you know, there's some things about this know, there's some things about this know, there's some things about this that could be cult-like.

that could be cult-like. that could be cult-like. And And And that's kind of what drew me into that's kind of what drew me into that's kind of what drew me into this story because you have this man. this story because you have this man. this story because you have this man. So, this is a man who starts like So, this is a man who starts like So, this is a man who starts like posting all these videos on Tik Tok posting all these videos on Tik Tok posting all these videos on Tik Tok about his obsession about plus-sized about his obsession about plus-sized about his obsession about plus-sized women and how he has this home women and how he has this home women and how he has this home in Las Vegas, of course, where else in Las Vegas, of course, where else in Las Vegas, of course, where else would it be? And he's made a lot of would it be? And he's made a lot of would it be? And he's made a lot of money, I guess, in um money, I guess, in um money, I guess, in um chip design and he's using this as chip design and he's using this as chip design and he's using this as a party place, but it's also a refuge. a party place, but it's also a refuge. a party place, but it's also a refuge. He embraces He embraces He embraces women who are plus size. He He women who are plus size. He He women who are plus size. He He fantasizes about them. Explain to me fantasizes about them. Explain to me fantasizes about them. Explain to me tell us what this paradise is. >> Take it away, Tara. >> Take it away, Tara. >> So, paradise >> So, paradise >> So, paradise the origins actually it was it was very the origins actually it was it was very the origins actually it was it was very organic. organic. organic. Stefan found Tik Tok. He was not a Stefan found Tik Tok. He was not a Stefan found Tik Tok. He was not a content creator before that, you know, content creator before that, you know, content creator before that, you know, he was a self-made he was a self-made he was a self-made you know, nerd. He will describe himself you know, nerd. He will describe himself you know, nerd. He will describe himself that way.

that way. that way. Who in the middle of the pandemic took Who in the middle of the pandemic took Who in the middle of the pandemic took to Tik Tok, discovered what it was, and to Tik Tok, discovered what it was, and to Tik Tok, discovered what it was, and just put himself out there. just put himself out there. just put himself out there. And in putting himself out there he got And in putting himself out there he got And in putting himself out there he got the the the massive response over time and you know, massive response over time and you know, massive response over time and you know, he has said that it's sort of the first he has said that it's sort of the first he has said that it's sort of the first time that the women that he was time that the women that he was time that the women that he was attracted to were coming to him and were attracted to were coming to him and were attracted to were coming to him and were following him and he was getting that following him and he was getting that following him and he was getting that validation. And from there it just built validation. And from there it just built validation. And from there it just built on itself and built on itself. It went on itself and built on itself. It went on itself and built on itself. It went from from from you know, him getting attention online you know, him getting attention online you know, him getting attention online to then you know, online account forming to then you know, online account forming to then you know, online account forming to the online account turning into let's to the online account turning into let's to the online account turning into let's have a party at the house to the party have a party at the house to the party have a party at the house to the party at the house being come over and hang at the house being come over and hang at the house being come over and hang out. out. out. The hangouts for some people became The hangouts for some people became The hangouts for some people became longer. You know, there's some people longer. You know, there's some people longer. You know, there's some people paradise is very different depending on paradise is very different depending on paradise is very different depending on which woman you are, where you're which woman you are, where you're which woman you are, where you're located. There's local people in Las located. There's local people in Las located. There's local people in Las Vegas around Las Vegas that come in and Vegas around Las Vegas that come in and Vegas around Las Vegas that come in and out, you know, every day. They don't out, you know, every day. They don't out, you know, every day. They don't live there. There's others that will live there. There's others that will live there. There's others that will come and stay for a weekend, a weekend come and stay for a weekend, a weekend come and stay for a weekend, a weekend that turns into a week. Some will stay that turns into a week. Some will stay that turns into a week. Some will stay for months. for months. for months. It's It's really a choose your own It's It's really a choose your own It's It's really a choose your own adventure situation within paradise. And adventure situation within paradise. And adventure situation within paradise. And over time, you know, the content over time, you know, the content over time, you know, the content continues to turn out turn out turn out continues to turn out turn out turn out continues to turn out turn out turn out during these parties, these visits, and during these parties, these visits, and during these parties, these visits, and they built up a massive following. You they built up a massive following. You they built up a massive following. You know, it it reached around 250,000 and know, it it reached around 250,000 and know, it it reached around 250,000 and up followers.

up followers. up followers. So, it's sort of a community So, it's sort of a community So, it's sort of a community >> Millions of views. Millions of views. >> Millions of views. Millions of views. >> Millions of views. Millions of views. >> millions of views. So, it keeps building >> millions of views. So, it keeps building >> millions of views. So, it keeps building on itself and and on itself and and on itself and and there there there to sort of be a new class of people to sort of be a new class of people to sort of be a new class of people finding it and finding their way to its finding it and finding their way to its finding it and finding their way to its messaging every day. messaging every day. messaging every day. >> So Michael, in all these videos that, >> So Michael, in all these videos that, >> So Michael, in all these videos that, you know, he starts posting and it takes you know, he starts posting and it takes you know, he starts posting and it takes off and then people want to join the off and then people want to join the off and then people want to join the party if you will. party if you will. party if you will. Um, where I get kind of confused is Um, where I get kind of confused is Um, where I get kind of confused is what exactly is his home because these what exactly is his home because these what exactly is his home because these people are essentially have like these people are essentially have like these people are essentially have like these virtual relationships and these women virtual relationships and these women virtual relationships and these women come to visit and in some cases they come to visit and in some cases they come to visit and in some cases they come to live and it kind of reminds me come to live and it kind of reminds me come to live and it kind of reminds me of the Playboy model with Hugh Hefner of the Playboy model with Hugh Hefner of the Playboy model with Hugh Hefner and the bunnies. It's just it's very and the bunnies. It's just it's very and the bunnies. It's just it's very what the heck's going on here? what the heck's going on here? what the heck's going on here? >> that's exactly right and and you know, a >> that's exactly right and and you know, a >> that's exactly right and and you know, a lot of people compared him to the plus lot of people compared him to the plus lot of people compared him to the plus size Hugh Hefner. size Hugh Hefner. size Hugh Hefner. Uh, and he is sort of sort of said, "No, Uh, and he is sort of sort of said, "No, Uh, and he is sort of sort of said, "No, I'm just not me. I'm not the plus size I'm just not me. I'm not the plus size I'm just not me. I'm not the plus size Hugh Hefner." I think like a little step Hugh Hefner." I think like a little step Hugh Hefner." I think like a little step back, I think will help provide context. back, I think will help provide context. back, I think will help provide context. I think one of the things, you know, one I think one of the things, you know, one I think one of the things, you know, one of the reasons we made this is I think of the reasons we made this is I think of the reasons we made this is I think from with a lot of empathy for the from with a lot of empathy for the from with a lot of empathy for the women.

women. women. And I think what you discover when And I think what you discover when And I think what you discover when you're speaking to a lot of these women you're speaking to a lot of these women you're speaking to a lot of these women is that they're they grew up in they're is that they're they grew up in they're is that they're they grew up in they're living in difficult environments. living in difficult environments. living in difficult environments. They're you know, they're often They're you know, they're often They're you know, they're often excluded, mocked, they don't have excluded, mocked, they don't have excluded, mocked, they don't have employment opportunities. A lot of them employment opportunities. A lot of them employment opportunities. A lot of them are sexually fetishized. A lot of them are sexually fetishized. A lot of them are sexually fetishized. A lot of them when they're in relationships are in when they're in relationships are in when they're in relationships are in abusive relationships. A lot of them are abusive relationships. A lot of them are abusive relationships. A lot of them are very poor and they go on TikTok and very poor and they go on TikTok and very poor and they go on TikTok and suddenly in their feed is this rich tech suddenly in their feed is this rich tech suddenly in their feed is this rich tech guy guy guy in Vegas saying like, "Woo, we're having in Vegas saying like, "Woo, we're having in Vegas saying like, "Woo, we're having a party." Right? And there's like a party." Right? And there's like a party." Right? And there's like there's like a hot tub and there's an there's like a hot tub and there's an there's like a hot tub and there's an indoor pool and Las Vegas is the global indoor pool and Las Vegas is the global indoor pool and Las Vegas is the global home of kind of the plus size party home of kind of the plus size party home of kind of the plus size party scene. There's even scene. There's even scene. There's even uh, there's even this restaurant that uh, there's even this restaurant that uh, there's even this restaurant that uh, you know, I'm going to drop uh, you know, I'm going to drop uh, you know, I'm going to drop neutrality for a moment and say it's a neutrality for a moment and say it's a neutrality for a moment and say it's a pretty gross place called the Heart pretty gross place called the Heart pretty gross place called the Heart >> I thought the restaurant Yeah, you know >> I thought the restaurant Yeah, you know >> I thought the restaurant Yeah, you know what? That bothered me, Michael. I what? That bothered me, Michael. I what? That bothered me, Michael. I didn't like that restaurant. didn't like that restaurant. didn't like that restaurant. >> No, I didn't it. >> No, I didn't it. >> No, I didn't it. >> No, it's just like no bueno. Um, and >> No, it's just like no bueno. Um, and >> No, it's just like no bueno. Um, and it's called the Heart Attack Grill and it's called the Heart Attack Grill and it's called the Heart Attack Grill and if you weigh over 350 lb, you can eat if you weigh over 350 lb, you can eat if you weigh over 350 lb, you can eat for free. Like none of this is healthy, for free. Like none of this is healthy, for free. Like none of this is healthy, right?

right? right? >> No. >> No. >> No. >> But if you're a person living, you know, >> But if you're a person living, you know, >> But if you're a person living, you know, as one of the women was saying says in as one of the women was saying says in as one of the women was saying says in the in the documentary, living in the in the documentary, living in the in the documentary, living in Alabama under, you know, in in a pretty Alabama under, you know, in in a pretty Alabama under, you know, in in a pretty lower class environment, the opportunity lower class environment, the opportunity lower class environment, the opportunity to come and live in a mansion at age 22 to come and live in a mansion at age 22 to come and live in a mansion at age 22 and be with a sisterhood of other and be with a sisterhood of other and be with a sisterhood of other plus-size women where you no longer feel plus-size women where you no longer feel plus-size women where you no longer feel like an outcast, that's pretty powerful like an outcast, that's pretty powerful like an outcast, that's pretty powerful stuff. And that's what this is about, stuff. And that's what this is about, stuff. And that's what this is about, right? This is about the question of A, right? This is about the question of A, right? This is about the question of A, the way these women are treated in the way these women are treated in the way these women are treated in general, general, general, B, the kind of line between, as you sort B, the kind of line between, as you sort B, the kind of line between, as you sort of said, admiration and fetishization. of said, admiration and fetishization. of said, admiration and fetishization. So, as you get into this this So, as you get into this this So, as you get into this this documentary, we go into some of the documentary, we go into some of the documentary, we go into some of the darker worlds of darker worlds of darker worlds of of frankly fat fetishization and it's a of frankly fat fetishization and it's a of frankly fat fetishization and it's a it's a fetish called feederism. it's a fetish called feederism. it's a fetish called feederism. And feederism, And feederism, And feederism, it's hard to describe, but but it it's hard to describe, but but it it's hard to describe, but but it connects eating and sex.

connects eating and sex. connects eating and sex. And the dynamic of it, not always, is And the dynamic of it, not always, is And the dynamic of it, not always, is largely largely largely men watching women eat or feeding women men watching women eat or feeding women men watching women eat or feeding women and there's a sexual component to it of and there's a sexual component to it of and there's a sexual component to it of some sort. Now, the dangers of that are some sort. Now, the dangers of that are some sort. Now, the dangers of that are kind of obvious. kind of obvious. kind of obvious. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And that becomes a key part of our >> And that becomes a key part of our >> And that becomes a key part of our narrative where, narrative where, narrative where, uh, you know, uh, uh, you know, uh, uh, you know, uh, there's there's on the best side, body there's there's on the best side, body there's there's on the best side, body positivity, it's great to feel good no positivity, it's great to feel good no positivity, it's great to feel good no matter matter matter what your shape is, but there's what your shape is, but there's what your shape is, but there's obviously when you get into some of the obviously when you get into some of the obviously when you get into some of the darker aspects of feederism, a health darker aspects of feederism, a health darker aspects of feederism, a health danger kind of kicks in. danger kind of kicks in. danger kind of kicks in. >> Very much so. >> Very much so. >> Very much so. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. At Tara, there are segments in >> Yeah. At Tara, there are segments in >> Yeah. At Tara, there are segments in your documentary where, you know, there your documentary where, you know, there your documentary where, you know, there are few women who monetize this, are few women who monetize this, are few women who monetize this, um, you know, through OnlyFans or um, you know, through OnlyFans or um, you know, through OnlyFans or whatever social media platforms that whatever social media platforms that whatever social media platforms that they're using, where men will pay them they're using, where men will pay them they're using, where men will pay them uh, and to watch them eat.

uh, and to watch them eat. uh, and to watch them eat. But, what is so troubling and the flip But, what is so troubling and the flip But, what is so troubling and the flip side of that is while, you know, side of that is while, you know, side of that is while, you know, everyone has personal freedoms and the everyone has personal freedoms and the everyone has personal freedoms and the idea that consenting adults can do idea that consenting adults can do idea that consenting adults can do whatever it is that they want, whatever it is that they want, whatever it is that they want, for these women who are very heavy in for these women who are very heavy in for these women who are very heavy in particular, this this particular, this this particular, this this this constantly trying to make money, this constantly trying to make money, this constantly trying to make money, right, by watching people by having right, by watching people by having right, by watching people by having people watch you eat, and the more you people watch you eat, and the more you people watch you eat, and the more you consume, the heavier you get, and that consume, the heavier you get, and that consume, the heavier you get, and that is very unhealthy for some of them, is very unhealthy for some of them, is very unhealthy for some of them, because that's pushing them tremendously because that's pushing them tremendously because that's pushing them tremendously in into a different in into a different in into a different health zone, and I was just very health zone, and I was just very health zone, and I was just very troubled by that. troubled by that. troubled by that. >> I think what was important to me and how >> I think what was important to me and how >> I think what was important to me and how we approached this from the beginning we approached this from the beginning we approached this from the beginning was I wanted to look at everyone in this was I wanted to look at everyone in this was I wanted to look at everyone in this without judgment. without judgment. without judgment. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Uh, for me it was more about >> Uh, for me it was more about >> Uh, for me it was more about understanding the why. When you see understanding the why. When you see understanding the why. When you see someone engaging in behavior that the someone engaging in behavior that the someone engaging in behavior that the outside eye looks objectively risky, outside eye looks objectively risky, outside eye looks objectively risky, I want to know how they got there and I I want to know how they got there and I I want to know how they got there and I want to know why. want to know why. want to know why. Uh, Uh, Uh, personally, I grew up plus-size, so, you personally, I grew up plus-size, so, you personally, I grew up plus-size, so, you know, there there is an empathy that I know, there there is an empathy that I know, there there is an empathy that I bring to this where I really truly bring to this where I really truly bring to this where I really truly wanted to understand how do you get wanted to understand how do you get wanted to understand how do you get here? And here? And here? And I did not know about many pieces of this I did not know about many pieces of this I did not know about many pieces of this this deep layered world myself. Uh, so this deep layered world myself. Uh, so this deep layered world myself. Uh, so it was a learning experience. And, you it was a learning experience. And, you it was a learning experience. And, you know, sitting and talking with the women know, sitting and talking with the women know, sitting and talking with the women engaged in in feederism, you know, you engaged in in feederism, you know, you engaged in in feederism, you know, you learn that it is a spectrum. Uh, you learn that it is a spectrum. Uh, you learn that it is a spectrum. Uh, you know, there there are the know, there there are the know, there there are the more on the outside harmless looking more on the outside harmless looking more on the outside harmless looking exchanges, and then it can be taken to exchanges, and then it can be taken to exchanges, and then it can be taken to the extreme. And I think when you take

the extreme. And I think when you take the extreme. And I think when you take anything to the extreme, anything to the extreme, anything to the extreme, you're talking about danger. you're talking about danger. you're talking about danger. Uh, but sitting and talking to the Uh, but sitting and talking to the Uh, but sitting and talking to the experts that we have involved in this experts that we have involved in this experts that we have involved in this and hearing them help unpack this idea and hearing them help unpack this idea and hearing them help unpack this idea of if you're someone that has a of if you're someone that has a of if you're someone that has a traumatized relationship with your body traumatized relationship with your body traumatized relationship with your body that from childhood has been told to that from childhood has been told to that from childhood has been told to make yourself smaller, to take up less make yourself smaller, to take up less make yourself smaller, to take up less space, to obsess over everything that space, to obsess over everything that space, to obsess over everything that you're eating, to eat less, and you as you're eating, to eat less, and you as you're eating, to eat less, and you as an adult finally have someone telling an adult finally have someone telling an adult finally have someone telling you, I find you attractive you, I find you attractive you, I find you attractive just the way you are. I find it hot when just the way you are. I find it hot when just the way you are. I find it hot when you are eating. you are eating. you are eating. You can see how there would be healing You can see how there would be healing You can see how there would be healing there. These women will talk about being there. These women will talk about being there. These women will talk about being not sexualized as kids and like as not sexualized as kids and like as not sexualized as kids and like as teens, teens, teens, and this is sort of their first chance and this is sort of their first chance and this is sort of their first chance to feel sexy in the eyes of someone to feel sexy in the eyes of someone to feel sexy in the eyes of someone else, and you see how else, and you see how else, and you see how that can, you know, be addictive. that can, you know, be addictive. that can, you know, be addictive. >> So, I want to talk about the house >> So, I want to talk about the house >> So, I want to talk about the house because I think that's when you see some because I think that's when you see some because I think that's when you see some similarities with other situations that similarities with other situations that similarities with other situations that we've covered on this podcast. So, he we've covered on this podcast. So, he we've covered on this podcast. So, he has something like what, six bedrooms?

has something like what, six bedrooms? has something like what, six bedrooms? He has cameras everywhere. He is He has cameras everywhere. He is He has cameras everywhere. He is producing content. So, he produces producing content. So, he produces producing content. So, he produces content, and then when you come into his content, and then when you come into his content, and then when you come into his world, either visiting or to stay, world, either visiting or to stay, world, either visiting or to stay, you're part of that production of the you're part of that production of the you're part of that production of the content, but then there are security content, but then there are security content, but then there are security cameras cameras cameras pretty much everywhere in the house, and pretty much everywhere in the house, and pretty much everywhere in the house, and here's So, here's the part when um you here's So, here's the part when um you here's So, here's the part when um you show you've got video of, show you've got video of, show you've got video of, you know, the women in the kitchen, and you know, the women in the kitchen, and you know, the women in the kitchen, and they're cutting up for the meals, that they're cutting up for the meals, that they're cutting up for the meals, that the understanding is that you can live the understanding is that you can live the understanding is that you can live here, but you have to participate in the here, but you have to participate in the here, but you have to participate in the cleaning, the cooking, the grocery cleaning, the cooking, the grocery cleaning, the cooking, the grocery shopping. Again, kind of like this shopping. Again, kind of like this shopping. Again, kind of like this commune living that we've seen in other commune living that we've seen in other commune living that we've seen in other situations. situations. situations. And do they pay anything to be in that And do they pay anything to be in that And do they pay anything to be in that house? And if there are only six rooms, house? And if there are only six rooms, house? And if there are only six rooms, like who gets the bedrooms? >> It's It's different with each It's >> It's It's different with each It's funny. Stefan will refer to them as the funny. Stefan will refer to them as the funny. Stefan will refer to them as the seasons of Paradise. That's sort of how seasons of Paradise. That's sort of how seasons of Paradise. That's sort of how he's wired.

he's wired. he's wired. Each group of women that is, you know, Each group of women that is, you know, Each group of women that is, you know, main characters, if you will, in main characters, if you will, in main characters, if you will, in Paradise at a given time. Paradise at a given time. Paradise at a given time. And each one is a little different. It's And each one is a little different. It's And each one is a little different. It's evolved over time. evolved over time. evolved over time. I can tell you, you know, the women that I can tell you, you know, the women that I can tell you, you know, the women that are in there now and the women that are in there now and the women that are in there now and the women that we've spoken with have said they've we've spoken with have said they've we've spoken with have said they've contributed to living expenses. And it contributed to living expenses. And it contributed to living expenses. And it is like what you're saying, they is like what you're saying, they is like what you're saying, they contribute labor to each other in terms contribute labor to each other in terms contribute labor to each other in terms of cooking, cleaning. There is an of cooking, cleaning. There is an of cooking, cleaning. There is an element of it that's the sisterhood as element of it that's the sisterhood as element of it that's the sisterhood as well, that, you know, well, that, you know, well, that, you know, some of them will describe that as just some of them will describe that as just some of them will describe that as just feeling like they're doing their part. feeling like they're doing their part. feeling like they're doing their part. Others will feel that way on the inside Others will feel that way on the inside Others will feel that way on the inside and then will leave and feel very and then will leave and feel very and then will leave and feel very differently on the outside. differently on the outside. differently on the outside. You know, one of the things that people You know, one of the things that people You know, one of the things that people agree on is that, you know, agree on is that, you know, agree on is that, you know, money is not Stefan's main motivator or money is not Stefan's main motivator or money is not Stefan's main motivator or driver in this, that it is about driver in this, that it is about driver in this, that it is about something else for him. Sort of a something else for him. Sort of a something else for him. Sort of a one of the rarer things that both sides one of the rarer things that both sides one of the rarer things that both sides of this story tend to agree on. of this story tend to agree on. of this story tend to agree on. You know, but there is definitely a You know, but there is definitely a You know, but there is definitely a contribution to this shared collective, contribution to this shared collective, contribution to this shared collective, this this this Someone described it as a utopia in the Someone described it as a utopia in the Someone described it as a utopia in the piece. piece. piece. And you have to ask yourself then like And you have to ask yourself then like And you have to ask yourself then like why is it Why is it worth that? Why is why is it Why is it worth that? Why is why is it Why is it worth that? Why is it Why is it so important to them it Why is it so important to them it Why is it so important to them to then agree to those things and to to then agree to those things and to to then agree to those things and to want to do those things? And what what want to do those things? And what what want to do those things? And what what is missing? What is what is broken that is missing? What is what is broken that is missing? What is what is broken that needs to be fixed that that lands them needs to be fixed that that lands them needs to be fixed that that lands them there?

there? there? >> And I think I mean >> And I think I mean >> And I think I mean there's there's I mean I want just want there's there's I mean I want just want there's there's I mean I want just want to pick up on what Tara was saying. to pick up on what Tara was saying. to pick up on what Tara was saying. Um Um Um I mean he is having sexual relations not I mean he is having sexual relations not I mean he is having sexual relations not with all of them, but with a lot of with all of them, but with a lot of with all of them, but with a lot of them. And so that that is in that is a them. And so that that is in that is a them. And so that that is in that is a significant part of what's happening at significant part of what's happening at significant part of what's happening at the house. the house. the house. >> Right. Right. And so >> Right. Right. And so >> Right. Right. And so the question becomes is it or is it not the question becomes is it or is it not the question becomes is it or is it not consensual? And is there manipulation or consensual? And is there manipulation or consensual? And is there manipulation or pressure or other things? And you pressure or other things? And you pressure or other things? And you interviewed women who had radically interviewed women who had radically interviewed women who had radically different experiences on on that very different experiences on on that very different experiences on on that very question. Some who claim that they were question. Some who claim that they were question. Some who claim that they were violated, others who said that they were violated, others who said that they were violated, others who said that they were not. What I did not see in the not. What I did not see in the not. What I did not see in the documentary, and I don't know whether documentary, and I don't know whether documentary, and I don't know whether this is something you can speak to, is this is something you can speak to, is this is something you can speak to, is for the women who claim that they were for the women who claim that they were for the women who claim that they were sexually violated or assaulted, did they sexually violated or assaulted, did they sexually violated or assaulted, did they ever go to the police? I didn't see ever go to the police? I didn't see ever go to the police? I didn't see that.

>> You want me I get You want to take it, >> You want me I get You want to take it, Tara, or you want me to take it? Tara, or you want me to take it? Tara, or you want me to take it? >> No, you can go ahead, Michael. >> No, you can go ahead, Michael. >> No, you can go ahead, Michael. >> Yeah, so so the the the the lead You're >> Yeah, so so the the the the lead You're >> Yeah, so so the the the the lead You're correct in saying that. As far as we correct in saying that. As far as we correct in saying that. As far as we know, nobody went to the police to know, nobody went to the police to know, nobody went to the police to attempt to have you know, to press attempt to have you know, to press attempt to have you know, to press criminal charges. What happened was a criminal charges. What happened was a criminal charges. What happened was a number of them went to an internet number of them went to an internet number of them went to an internet influencer named Kimmi, influencer named Kimmi, influencer named Kimmi, who started posting pretty relentlessly who started posting pretty relentlessly who started posting pretty relentlessly allegations of sexual assault, sexual allegations of sexual assault, sexual allegations of sexual assault, sexual abuse against Stefan. abuse against Stefan. abuse against Stefan. Stefan sued Kimmi Stefan sued Kimmi Stefan sued Kimmi and a number of the other women who and a number of the other women who and a number of the other women who appear in in the documentary. appear in in the documentary. appear in in the documentary. Uh and he Uh and he Uh and he for and Tara, for and Tara, for and Tara, maybe you can remember exactly what he maybe you can remember exactly what he maybe you can remember exactly what he accuses them of, but I but basically of accuses them of, but I but basically of accuses them of, but I but basically of making false charges against him. making false charges against him. making false charges against him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Slander and defamation. >> Slander and defamation. >> Slander and defamation. >> Slander and defamation. >> Slander and defamation. >> Slander and defamation. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, they then file a countersuit and >> So, they then file a countersuit and >> So, they then file a countersuit and anti-slap suit, which is often used as a anti-slap suit, which is often used as a anti-slap suit, which is often used as a tool to to kind of shut down potentially tool to to kind of shut down potentially tool to to kind of shut down potentially expensive expensive expensive and and, you know, uh and and, you know, uh and and, you know, uh uh uh uh reckless allegations.

reckless allegations. reckless allegations. Uh and the judge rules in their favor. Uh and the judge rules in their favor. Uh and the judge rules in their favor. And And And >> of the women that they have the right to >> of the women that they have the right to >> of the women that they have the right to say what they're saying. say what they're saying. say what they're saying. >> That's right. And that there's >> That's right. And that there's >> That's right. And that there's sufficient reason to believe either that sufficient reason to believe either that sufficient reason to believe either that what they're saying is true or that what they're saying is true or that what they're saying is true or that they're making those charges in kind of they're making those charges in kind of they're making those charges in kind of good faith, right? So, [clears throat] good faith, right? So, [clears throat] good faith, right? So, [clears throat] from Stephon's point of view from Stephon's point of view from Stephon's point of view he's never had a proper day in court. he's never had a proper day in court. he's never had a proper day in court. He's he has a lot of evidence that he He's he has a lot of evidence that he He's he has a lot of evidence that he shared with us as recently as 2 days ago shared with us as recently as 2 days ago shared with us as recently as 2 days ago that also appears in the documentary to that also appears in the documentary to that also appears in the documentary to show from his point of view that the show from his point of view that the show from his point of view that the women were acting consensually or women were acting consensually or women were acting consensually or and I think this is also interesting and I think this is also interesting and I think this is also interesting kind of culturally kind of culturally kind of culturally that there's a kind of gray area in that there's a kind of gray area in that there's a kind of gray area in between total consent and sexual assault between total consent and sexual assault between total consent and sexual assault and that he's as I know perfect. Yeah, I and that he's as I know perfect. Yeah, I and that he's as I know perfect. Yeah, I mean it's a that's a truly interesting mean it's a that's a truly interesting mean it's a that's a truly interesting question and a difficult question. question and a difficult question. question and a difficult question. >> Well, I was very fascinated, you know, >> Well, I was very fascinated, you know, >> Well, I was very fascinated, you know, cuz you asked him multiple times to get cuz you asked him multiple times to get cuz you asked him multiple times to get his side and he clearly sat down with his side and he clearly sat down with his side and he clearly sat down with you to tell you you to tell you you to tell you from his perspective what happened and from his perspective what happened and from his perspective what happened and you hear him say, you know, that it was you hear him say, you know, that it was you hear him say, you know, that it was consensual. He denies any wrongdoing.

consensual. He denies any wrongdoing. consensual. He denies any wrongdoing. However, he does leave some space there However, he does leave some space there However, he does leave some space there of of of of almost if this is how I interpret of almost if this is how I interpret of almost if this is how I interpret what he said that if I misread the cues what he said that if I misread the cues what he said that if I misread the cues or I stepped over a boundary that I or I stepped over a boundary that I or I stepped over a boundary that I didn't mean to, I apologize didn't mean to, I apologize didn't mean to, I apologize for that. Is that kind of accurate? for that. Is that kind of accurate? for that. Is that kind of accurate? >> precisely accurate. Yes, and that >> precisely accurate. Yes, and that >> precisely accurate. Yes, and that that he believes that there should be a that he believes that there should be a that he believes that there should be a space for that to happen, right? And space for that to happen, right? And space for that to happen, right? And but you know, the the other questions but you know, the the other questions but you know, the the other questions that all of which are are super that all of which are are super that all of which are are super interesting, right? Are what are your interesting, right? Are what are your interesting, right? Are what are your expectations if you come into this expectations if you come into this expectations if you come into this house? You know, it's a kind of house? You know, it's a kind of house? You know, it's a kind of free-willing commune. You might very free-willing commune. You might very free-willing commune. You might very logically believe that you have an logically believe that you have an logically believe that you have an expectation that you should behave in a expectation that you should behave in a expectation that you should behave in a certain way. certain way. certain way. A number of the women say they did not A number of the women say they did not A number of the women say they did not have any idea that any of this was have any idea that any of this was have any idea that any of this was happening happening happening Um or that was at that that basically Um or that was at that that basically Um or that was at that that basically sexual availability was expected of sexual availability was expected of sexual availability was expected of them.

them. them. And then on the on the flip side, And then on the on the flip side, And then on the on the flip side, you know, there's the kind of broad you know, there's the kind of broad you know, there's the kind of broad sense that that if you're sense that that if you're sense that that if you're a large woman, you sort of in a way in a large woman, you sort of in a way in a large woman, you sort of in a way in society should be thrilled that any man society should be thrilled that any man society should be thrilled that any man is interested in you. That's sort of is interested in you. That's sort of is interested in you. That's sort of that's the context in a way, right? that's the context in a way, right? that's the context in a way, right? Where where Where where Where where where where we were sort of looking to where where we were sort of looking to where where we were sort of looking to get at some of the problems with the way get at some of the problems with the way get at some of the problems with the way in which you know, a lot of these women in which you know, a lot of these women in which you know, a lot of these women say they've been treated by society as a say they've been treated by society as a say they've been treated by society as a whole. whole. whole. >> And so to be clear, Tara, >> And so to be clear, Tara, >> And so to be clear, Tara, Paradise still exists Paradise still exists Paradise still exists even with these accusations, these even with these accusations, these even with these accusations, these counter-accusations, counter-accusations, counter-accusations, the lawsuits that have been saddled, you the lawsuits that have been saddled, you the lawsuits that have been saddled, you know, or tossed out, I should say is know, or tossed out, I should say is know, or tossed out, I should say is probably more accurate. probably more accurate. probably more accurate. Um Um Um but he's still doing his thing. but he's still doing his thing. but he's still doing his thing. Whatever that may be. Whatever that may be. Whatever that may be. >> He is. >> He is. >> He is. He's still living in the the same house He's still living in the the same house He's still living in the the same house that we filmed in and he's that we filmed in and he's that we filmed in and he's online online online constantly. Um constantly. Um constantly. Um it's just you know, a normal day for it's just you know, a normal day for it's just you know, a normal day for Steven is to to be Steven is to to be Steven is to to be on his phone, on on the computer, on the on his phone, on on the computer, on the on his phone, on on the computer, on the internet. It's it's how he breathes.

internet. It's it's how he breathes. internet. It's it's how he breathes. >> So when he's streaming or whatever >> So when he's streaming or whatever >> So when he's streaming or whatever content he's putting out there, um is content he's putting out there, um is content he's putting out there, um is all of it what I would call I don't all of it what I would call I don't all of it what I would call I don't know, know, know, PG or is there also for those who want PG or is there also for those who want PG or is there also for those who want something a little bit more hardcore, is something a little bit more hardcore, is something a little bit more hardcore, is that part of this and is that that part of this and is that that part of this and is that for payment or how does that work? >> No, Paradise itself, the the accounts >> No, Paradise itself, the the accounts that he he manages outwardly and that that he he manages outwardly and that that he he manages outwardly and that you see branded with the Paradise logo, you see branded with the Paradise logo, you see branded with the Paradise logo, it it's the it it's the it it's the more day in the life, you know, get up more day in the life, you know, get up more day in the life, you know, get up and eat breakfast with me, and eat breakfast with me, and eat breakfast with me, go for a drive with me, go for a drive with me, go for a drive with me, be at this party with us. be at this party with us. be at this party with us. You know, that's that's what he takes You know, that's that's what he takes You know, that's that's what he takes takes ownership of. I think there's takes ownership of. I think there's takes ownership of. I think there's questions to be asked about what you see questions to be asked about what you see questions to be asked about what you see within it and within it and within it and who may or may not be hiding within the who may or may not be hiding within the who may or may not be hiding within the viewership of some of it. Stefan will viewership of some of it. Stefan will viewership of some of it. Stefan will tell you that his viewership goes up tell you that his viewership goes up tell you that his viewership goes up every time that they're eating dinner at every time that they're eating dinner at every time that they're eating dinner at the table and that, you know, in the table and that, you know, in the table and that, you know, in Stefan's perspective that that's people Stefan's perspective that that's people Stefan's perspective that that's people wanting to wanting to wanting to share community with them and and be share community with them and and be share community with them and and be together. But I think, you know, together. But I think, you know, together. But I think, you know, you have to ask yourself who else is in you have to ask yourself who else is in you have to ask yourself who else is in there and what else are they looking there and what else are they looking there and what else are they looking for. And then the women, not all of the for. And then the women, not all of the for. And then the women, not all of the women, but some of the women have their women, but some of the women have their women, but some of the women have their their own separate streams when it comes their own separate streams when it comes their own separate streams when it comes to things like OnlyFans and and other to things like OnlyFans and and other to things like OnlyFans and and other platforms that they engage in platforms that they engage in platforms that they engage in themselves.

themselves. themselves. >> And the other thing the other thing >> And the other thing the other thing >> And the other thing the other thing Anna that's that's crazy, and this is Anna that's that's crazy, and this is Anna that's that's crazy, and this is also, you know, knew nothing about this. also, you know, knew nothing about this. also, you know, knew nothing about this. There's there are a number of platforms, There's there are a number of platforms, There's there are a number of platforms, the most prominent which is called the most prominent which is called the most prominent which is called Feabie, which is essentially a kind of Feabie, which is essentially a kind of Feabie, which is essentially a kind of Facebook that is Facebook that is Facebook that is for feeders to for feeders to for feeders to connect with feedees. connect with feedees. connect with feedees. And And And >> So kind of like a very specialized >> So kind of like a very specialized >> So kind of like a very specialized OnlyFans just for that. OnlyFans just for that. OnlyFans just for that. >> Precisely. Well, yes, but but with a >> Precisely. Well, yes, but but with a >> Precisely. Well, yes, but but with a I've never been on OnlyFans, so I I've never been on OnlyFans, so I I've never been on OnlyFans, so I couldn't tell you precisely, but I my couldn't tell you precisely, but I my couldn't tell you precisely, but I my understanding is is literally understanding is is literally understanding is is literally you know, someone is like, I'll pay you you know, someone is like, I'll pay you you know, someone is like, I'll pay you $30 to watch you eat Chinese food. $30 to watch you eat Chinese food. $30 to watch you eat Chinese food. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then and then it escalates from >> And then and then it escalates from >> And then and then it escalates from there. So there. So there. So So So I think what what Tara said So So I think what what Tara said So So I think what what Tara said earlier is is the part of the problem is earlier is is the part of the problem is earlier is is the part of the problem is is that you there's there's a kind of is that you there's there's a kind of is that you there's there's a kind of let's call it psychosexual let's call it psychosexual let's call it psychosexual satisfaction that can come from feed satisfaction that can come from feed satisfaction that can come from feed from being a feedee.

from being a feedee. from being a feedee. But there's also a straight economic But there's also a straight economic But there's also a straight economic sort of tethering, right? If you're if sort of tethering, right? If you're if sort of tethering, right? If you're if you're if if you don't have a you're if if you don't have a you're if if you don't have a 9-5 job and you're making reasonable 9-5 job and you're making reasonable 9-5 job and you're making reasonable money money money through a website like Phoebe through a website like Phoebe through a website like Phoebe you're in that life and it's hard to get you're in that life and it's hard to get you're in that life and it's hard to get out of that life. out of that life. out of that life. And that's sort of part of the problem And that's sort of part of the problem And that's sort of part of the problem here that we're looking to kind of get here that we're looking to kind of get here that we're looking to kind of get at. at. at. >> Tara, I'm curious, you know, what was >> Tara, I'm curious, you know, what was >> Tara, I'm curious, you know, what was the feeling when you walked into the the feeling when you walked into the the feeling when you walked into the house? Like what what's your takeaway? house? Like what what's your takeaway? house? Like what what's your takeaway? Cuz some of that stuff you it just Cuz some of that stuff you it just Cuz some of that stuff you it just doesn't quite fit into a documentary in doesn't quite fit into a documentary in doesn't quite fit into a documentary in the sense that it's your impressions. the sense that it's your impressions. the sense that it's your impressions. >> I wanted to go in very open-minded and I >> I wanted to go in very open-minded and I >> I wanted to go in very open-minded and I you cannot watch a man like Stefan and you cannot watch a man like Stefan and you cannot watch a man like Stefan and watch an account like Paradise and not watch an account like Paradise and not watch an account like Paradise and not just be curious about what it really is just be curious about what it really is just be curious about what it really is and how it works and what makes it tick and how it works and what makes it tick and how it works and what makes it tick and what is for real. So I tried to go and what is for real. So I tried to go and what is for real. So I tried to go in with a very open mind to meet him, to in with a very open mind to meet him, to in with a very open mind to meet him, to meet the women that that were in his meet the women that that were in his meet the women that that were in his circle right now and circle right now and circle right now and it's a it's a disorienting feeling I it's a it's a disorienting feeling I it's a it's a disorienting feeling I think, especially as as a plus-size think, especially as as a plus-size think, especially as as a plus-size person myself, to suddenly be surrounded person myself, to suddenly be surrounded person myself, to suddenly be surrounded by plus-size women and only plus-size by plus-size women and only plus-size by plus-size women and only plus-size women and be in a space where you aren't women and be in a space where you aren't women and be in a space where you aren't worried about if a chair will break when worried about if a chair will break when worried about if a chair will break when you sit down or you could borrow someone you sit down or you could borrow someone you sit down or you could borrow someone else's, you know, bathing suit if you else's, you know, bathing suit if you else's, you know, bathing suit if you wanted to go for a swim.

wanted to go for a swim. wanted to go for a swim. It's it's hard to miss why that is It's it's hard to miss why that is It's it's hard to miss why that is attractive to people when you're in the attractive to people when you're in the attractive to people when you're in the space. And I was taken aback to talk to space. And I was taken aback to talk to space. And I was taken aback to talk to to some of the women there and hear how to some of the women there and hear how to some of the women there and hear how convicted they were about what this convicted they were about what this convicted they were about what this place had brought to their lives. It it place had brought to their lives. It it place had brought to their lives. It it sort of confirmed the the approach that sort of confirmed the the approach that sort of confirmed the the approach that we took in the end of every woman's we took in the end of every woman's we took in the end of every woman's journey through Paradise is unique and journey through Paradise is unique and journey through Paradise is unique and different and it is a real range and we different and it is a real range and we different and it is a real range and we needed to acknowledge that and sort of needed to acknowledge that and sort of needed to acknowledge that and sort of really look into those gray areas to do really look into those gray areas to do really look into those gray areas to do it to do it right. it to do it right. it to do it right. >> Did you get a feeling like of the >> Did you get a feeling like of the >> Did you get a feeling like of the bedrooms or how things operated? Was it bedrooms or how things operated? Was it bedrooms or how things operated? Was it organized? Was it chaotic? Is it just organized? Was it chaotic? Is it just organized? Was it chaotic? Is it just organic? >> It's honestly it's an average house. >> It's honestly it's an average house. That's That's the That's I think the That's That's the That's I think the That's That's the That's I think the interesting thing of walking in the door interesting thing of walking in the door interesting thing of walking in the door and Michael has been there as well. That and Michael has been there as well. That and Michael has been there as well. That when you watch when you watch when you watch it's prolific on on Tik Tok in terms of it's prolific on on Tik Tok in terms of it's prolific on on Tik Tok in terms of how much you can take in and how how much you can take in and how how much you can take in and how constant it is. So you kind of go in constant it is. So you kind of go in constant it is. So you kind of go in expecting I don't know Willy Wonka a fun expecting I don't know Willy Wonka a fun expecting I don't know Willy Wonka a fun house. And it's just a house. You know, house. And it's just a house. You know, house. And it's just a house. You know, it's a it's a a mansion in a cul-de-sac it's a it's a a mansion in a cul-de-sac it's a it's a a mansion in a cul-de-sac in Paradise Nevada just outside the in Paradise Nevada just outside the in Paradise Nevada just outside the strip. Um it was strip. Um it was strip. Um it was organized. I mean there is definitely a organized. I mean there is definitely a organized. I mean there is definitely a collective energy there in terms of collective energy there in terms of collective energy there in terms of everyone kind of you know making lunch everyone kind of you know making lunch everyone kind of you know making lunch together working together. Stefan has together working together. Stefan has together working together. Stefan has his bedroom upstairs.

his bedroom upstairs. his bedroom upstairs. There's the other bedrooms where people There's the other bedrooms where people There's the other bedrooms where people will stay and you know come for a few will stay and you know come for a few will stay and you know come for a few days or a few weeks. The girls that are days or a few weeks. The girls that are days or a few weeks. The girls that are staying in the house you know longer staying in the house you know longer staying in the house you know longer term term term had their rooms, but no I think what was had their rooms, but no I think what was had their rooms, but no I think what was what was um what was um what was um fascinating to me was to get there and fascinating to me was to get there and fascinating to me was to get there and look around and say look around and say look around and say oh this is this is just a house. oh this is this is just a house. oh this is this is just a house. Like there's so much going on here, but Like there's so much going on here, but Like there's so much going on here, but this is a house. Like this is just a this is a house. Like this is just a this is a house. Like this is just a neighborhood. neighborhood. neighborhood. >> but I think we have to say that for for >> but I think we have to say that for for >> but I think we have to say that for for I don't know if it's every night, but I don't know if it's every night, but I don't know if it's every night, but most nights that that a certain point most nights that that a certain point most nights that that a certain point the stream is stopped and the party the stream is stopped and the party the stream is stopped and the party starts. starts. starts. And that is not you know, that's not a And that is not you know, that's not a And that is not you know, that's not a live stream on YouTube. live stream on YouTube. live stream on YouTube. That I I you know, presume a lot of it's That I I you know, presume a lot of it's That I I you know, presume a lot of it's recorded internally, but but but people recorded internally, but but but people recorded internally, but but but people are naked and they're in the hot tub and are naked and they're in the hot tub and are naked and they're in the hot tub and stuff is happening. stuff is happening. stuff is happening. >> Yeah, I think Michael dead on in terms >> Yeah, I think Michael dead on in terms >> Yeah, I think Michael dead on in terms of you know, we saw of you know, we saw of you know, we saw We saw inside the house, but we saw you We saw inside the house, but we saw you We saw inside the house, but we saw you know, Paradise we started to call it know, Paradise we started to call it know, Paradise we started to call it Paradise before dark and after dark. Paradise before dark and after dark. Paradise before dark and after dark. Cuz a lot of if not all the women sort Cuz a lot of if not all the women sort Cuz a lot of if not all the women sort of shared this same rhythm of a day at of shared this same rhythm of a day at of shared this same rhythm of a day at Paradise Paradise Paradise a night at Paradise where everything a night at Paradise where everything a night at Paradise where everything on the live stream while those cameras on the live stream while those cameras on the live stream while those cameras are on is you know, PG at best. It is are on is you know, PG at best. It is are on is you know, PG at best. It is welcoming. It is body positive, welcoming. It is body positive, welcoming. It is body positive, messaging forward.

messaging forward. messaging forward. Uh and then there's a moment when the Uh and then there's a moment when the Uh and then there's a moment when the live streams turn off. live streams turn off. live streams turn off. >> And >> And >> And sometimes other people come in and it's sometimes other people come in and it's sometimes other people come in and it's not always, you know, it's not not not always, you know, it's not not not always, you know, it's not not always clear who these people are. So, always clear who these people are. So, always clear who these people are. So, you know, it's uh if you're if you're a you know, it's uh if you're if you're a you know, it's uh if you're if you're a 22-year-old who's not hugely 22-year-old who's not hugely 22-year-old who's not hugely experienced, that's can be pretty experienced, that's can be pretty experienced, that's can be pretty shocking. shocking. shocking. >> Mhm. It can be scary. Absolutely. >> Mhm. It can be scary. Absolutely. >> Mhm. It can be scary. Absolutely. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Absolutely. Um especially if you feel >> Absolutely. Um especially if you feel >> Absolutely. Um especially if you feel pressure. pressure. pressure. Can you do you have an opinion here on, Can you do you have an opinion here on, Can you do you have an opinion here on, you know, is this a compound? Is this a you know, is this a compound? Is this a you know, is this a compound? Is this a commune? commune? commune? Do you see some cult-like behavior? Do you see some cult-like behavior? Do you see some cult-like behavior? What do you think this is? >> Well, I >> Well, I >> Yeah, yeah, you go ahead, Tara. No, no, >> Yeah, yeah, you go ahead, Tara. No, no, >> Yeah, yeah, you go ahead, Tara. No, no, it's fine. Go, go, go. it's fine. Go, go, go. it's fine. Go, go, go. >> No, I think it is very much different >> No, I think it is very much different >> No, I think it is very much different for each and every woman that is in in for each and every woman that is in in for each and every woman that is in in and out of that house. and out of that house. and out of that house. And I I would go so far as to say it's And I I would go so far as to say it's And I I would go so far as to say it's even different for those women depending even different for those women depending even different for those women depending on where they are in their journey.

on where they are in their journey. on where they are in their journey. There are women that will There are women that will There are women that will defend and fight for Stefan defend and fight for Stefan defend and fight for Stefan one day and then they will one day and then they will one day and then they will find themselves on the outside later and find themselves on the outside later and find themselves on the outside later and pivot, look back at, you know, the way pivot, look back at, you know, the way pivot, look back at, you know, the way that they were living or the things that that they were living or the things that that they were living or the things that were going on and have a whole new were going on and have a whole new were going on and have a whole new understanding of them. So, for me it's understanding of them. So, for me it's understanding of them. So, for me it's never really been my place to make that never really been my place to make that never really been my place to make that that judgment for them. that judgment for them. that judgment for them. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> You know, I I think >> You know, I I think >> You know, I I think uh one of the most telling exchanges I uh one of the most telling exchanges I uh one of the most telling exchanges I had was with a young woman named uh had was with a young woman named uh had was with a young woman named uh Shay, who I said, you know, I asked all Shay, who I said, you know, I asked all Shay, who I said, you know, I asked all of them, you know, do you see yourself of them, you know, do you see yourself of them, you know, do you see yourself as a victim? as a victim? as a victim? And she said, I am not a victim. And she said, I am not a victim. And she said, I am not a victim. People need to ask me why I want to be People need to ask me why I want to be People need to ask me why I want to be here. And that became sort of a guiding here. And that became sort of a guiding here. And that became sort of a guiding light. I wanted to know from them what light. I wanted to know from them what light. I wanted to know from them what they felt it was, why they wanted to be they felt it was, why they wanted to be they felt it was, why they wanted to be there. there. there. >> The the, you know, I want to be careful >> The the, you know, I want to be careful >> The the, you know, I want to be careful not to say yes, this is a cult. not to say yes, this is a cult. not to say yes, this is a cult. Uh it definitely is a form of a commune. Uh it definitely is a form of a commune. Uh it definitely is a form of a commune. Um Um Um but you know, there there there were but you know, there there there were but you know, there there there were there's a a lot of attention paid there's a a lot of attention paid there's a a lot of attention paid by the women to how Stefan is feeling at by the women to how Stefan is feeling at by the women to how Stefan is feeling at any particular time, right? And there any particular time, right? And there any particular time, right? And there are hierarchies within the house. There are hierarchies within the house. There are hierarchies within the house. There are sort of the inner circle, there's are sort of the inner circle, there's are sort of the inner circle, there's the outer circle.

the outer circle. the outer circle. There are people that are invited to There are people that are invited to There are people that are invited to stay, there are people that are not stay, there are people that are not stay, there are people that are not invited to stay. invited to stay. invited to stay. Um Um Um you know, Stefan you know, Stefan you know, Stefan a lot of the documentary a lot of the documentary a lot of the documentary is is about and it's a really tragic is is about and it's a really tragic is is about and it's a really tragic story story story a woman named Cass who is kind of the a woman named Cass who is kind of the a woman named Cass who is kind of the you know, to pick maybe a dated you know, to pick maybe a dated you know, to pick maybe a dated reference kind of the Marilyn Monroe the reference kind of the Marilyn Monroe the reference kind of the Marilyn Monroe the plus-size set. I mean, like stunningly plus-size set. I mean, like stunningly plus-size set. I mean, like stunningly beautiful and and sort of beautiful and and sort of beautiful and and sort of whispery and and and inspirational and whispery and and and inspirational and whispery and and and inspirational and empowering. empowering. empowering. >> She was beautiful and she was the >> She was beautiful and she was the >> She was beautiful and she was the favored one, right? And she stayed in favored one, right? And she stayed in favored one, right? And she stayed in Stefan's room. Um and then over the Stefan's room. Um and then over the Stefan's room. Um and then over the course of the documentary course of the documentary course of the documentary and and to be very very fair to Stefan and and to be very very fair to Stefan and and to be very very fair to Stefan uh uh uh a lot of this happens after she leaves a lot of this happens after she leaves a lot of this happens after she leaves paradise. paradise. paradise. Uh Uh Uh sort of goes from being plus-size but sort of goes from being plus-size but sort of goes from being plus-size but active and vivacious and seemingly active and vivacious and seemingly active and vivacious and seemingly healthy to healthy to healthy to quite unhealthy and then eventually she quite unhealthy and then eventually she quite unhealthy and then eventually she dies. And dies. And dies. And uh and we don't know precisely uh and we don't know precisely uh and we don't know precisely what her cause of death was, but she was what her cause of death was, but she was what her cause of death was, but she was deep into the world of feederism deep into the world of feederism deep into the world of feederism and was almost certainly being exploited and was almost certainly being exploited and was almost certainly being exploited by somebody in some way by somebody in some way by somebody in some way in a way that ultimately led to a kind in a way that ultimately led to a kind in a way that ultimately led to a kind of a tragic end for her.

of a tragic end for her. of a tragic end for her. Um Um Um so there's so there's so there's it's fair to ask a bunch of questions, it's fair to ask a bunch of questions, it's fair to ask a bunch of questions, but in a way it's too easy to give just but in a way it's too easy to give just but in a way it's too easy to give just give like a pat answer. give like a pat answer. give like a pat answer. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. Well, that's what I found so interesting Well, that's what I found so interesting Well, that's what I found so interesting uh about this series because it was very uh about this series because it was very uh about this series because it was very layered. It was very complicated and you layered. It was very complicated and you layered. It was very complicated and you presented many many different sides and presented many many different sides and presented many many different sides and many many many versions of experiences there, which I versions of experiences there, which I versions of experiences there, which I think is what further complicates think is what further complicates think is what further complicates the answer. Like I the answer. Like I the answer. Like I I watched it and there's a bunch of I watched it and there's a bunch of I watched it and there's a bunch of stuff I still don't know or understand stuff I still don't know or understand stuff I still don't know or understand and maybe that's just it. You know, we and maybe that's just it. You know, we and maybe that's just it. You know, we can't always know everything. can't always know everything. can't always know everything. Did Did Did Stephan Stephan Stephan did he willingly open his home to you did he willingly open his home to you did he willingly open his home to you also knowing that you're talking to also knowing that you're talking to also knowing that you're talking to women who are accusing him of, you know, women who are accusing him of, you know, women who are accusing him of, you know, of sexually violating them at the very of sexually violating them at the very of sexually violating them at the very least? least? least? >> Well, what we said to him was and and um >> Well, what we said to him was and and um >> Well, what we said to him was and and um I had an initial meeting with him. This I had an initial meeting with him. This I had an initial meeting with him. This is now a year and a half ago is now a year and a half ago is now a year and a half ago um before Tara was involved in the um before Tara was involved in the um before Tara was involved in the project. Uh the first time we met with project. Uh the first time we met with project. Uh the first time we met with him him him uh uh uh we didn't know everything that we know we didn't know everything that we know we didn't know everything that we know now, but but I said to him very now, but but I said to him very now, but but I said to him very carefully um you know, there are carefully um you know, there are carefully um you know, there are allegations that are made about you and allegations that are made about you and allegations that are made about you and about your behavior. Um we are about your behavior. Um we are about your behavior. Um we are duty-bound journalistically and as

duty-bound journalistically and as duty-bound journalistically and as documentarians to explore those documentarians to explore those documentarians to explore those and to approach those people to speak to and to approach those people to speak to and to approach those people to speak to them. them. them. But if anything that we find out, we we But if anything that we find out, we we But if anything that we find out, we we we will not be reckless about using we will not be reckless about using we will not be reckless about using allegations cuz sometimes people make allegations cuz sometimes people make allegations cuz sometimes people make false allegations and to give you an false allegations and to give you an false allegations and to give you an opportunity to respond. So, so he was opportunity to respond. So, so he was opportunity to respond. So, so he was well aware or should have been well well aware or should have been well well aware or should have been well aware from the start you know, that we aware from the start you know, that we aware from the start you know, that we were not This is were not This is were not This is This was never a puff piece. It was It This was never a puff piece. It was It This was never a puff piece. It was It was we will give you an opportunity to was we will give you an opportunity to was we will give you an opportunity to show your world, show why it's show your world, show why it's show your world, show why it's interesting, show why it matters, right? interesting, show why it matters, right? interesting, show why it matters, right? I mean, he he he advertised Paradise as I mean, he he he advertised Paradise as I mean, he he he advertised Paradise as a place of acceptance and love, right? a place of acceptance and love, right? a place of acceptance and love, right? And And we give him the opportunity to And And we give him the opportunity to And And we give him the opportunity to show Paradise as a place of acceptance show Paradise as a place of acceptance show Paradise as a place of acceptance and love, but we also show the other and love, but we also show the other and love, but we also show the other side. side. side. >> You know what I found offensive towards >> You know what I found offensive towards >> You know what I found offensive towards the end of the third episode? This is the end of the third episode? This is the end of the third episode? This is when it's more of a conclusion of what when it's more of a conclusion of what when it's more of a conclusion of what happened with the lawsuit and, you know, happened with the lawsuit and, you know, happened with the lawsuit and, you know, while the allegations still stand, I was while the allegations still stand, I was while the allegations still stand, I was very repulsed by the way he referred to very repulsed by the way he referred to very repulsed by the way he referred to the women the women the women who say they survived who say they survived who say they survived horrible things in that house.

horrible things in that house. horrible things in that house. I mean, I mean, I mean, he when I hear him referring to women he when I hear him referring to women he when I hear him referring to women who lived in his house prior who lived in his house prior who lived in his house prior as [ __ ] I had a real as [ __ ] I had a real as [ __ ] I had a real For me, that was an insight into this For me, that was an insight into this For me, that was an insight into this man. The man with the goofy Hawaiian man. The man with the goofy Hawaiian man. The man with the goofy Hawaiian shirt and the tie-dyed T-shirt or shirt and the tie-dyed T-shirt or shirt and the tie-dyed T-shirt or whatever, you know, haha, having a fun whatever, you know, haha, having a fun whatever, you know, haha, having a fun time, and then you kind of see time, and then you kind of see time, and then you kind of see that. And I I understand he was sued and that. And I I understand he was sued and that. And I I understand he was sued and he believes that he was unfairly he believes that he was unfairly he believes that he was unfairly accused, accused, accused, but it's not just one person that's but it's not just one person that's but it's not just one person that's making allegations. There are multiple making allegations. There are multiple making allegations. There are multiple allegations. I know he denies it. allegations. I know he denies it. allegations. I know he denies it. I just was like, "Ooh, I just was like, "Ooh, I just was like, "Ooh, that's nasty." that's nasty." that's nasty." >> Yeah, I mean, I think um uh >> Yeah, I mean, I think um uh >> Yeah, I mean, I think um uh uh uh uh I I I can see why you feel that. I think I I I can see why you feel that. I think I I I can see why you feel that. I think there was I think the reason we included there was I think the reason we included there was I think the reason we included it we included at the end was that he it we included at the end was that he it we included at the end was that he would have he would have he would have he he would put up a very polished he would put up a very polished he would put up a very polished front.

front. front. >> Oh, I'm glad you included it. >> Oh, I'm glad you included it. >> Oh, I'm glad you included it. >> Yeah, and I think we wanted to make sure >> Yeah, and I think we wanted to make sure >> Yeah, and I think we wanted to make sure that that you saw, you know, saw him in that that you saw, you know, saw him in that that you saw, you know, saw him in a slightly less guarded fashion. And I a slightly less guarded fashion. And I a slightly less guarded fashion. And I think this is sort of a, you know, in think this is sort of a, you know, in think this is sort of a, you know, in part, I mean, we wanted to to to put the part, I mean, we wanted to to to put the part, I mean, we wanted to to to put the women at the center for sure, but it's women at the center for sure, but it's women at the center for sure, but it's also a fascinating character study. And also a fascinating character study. And also a fascinating character study. And he's he said this himself. And And one he's he said this himself. And And one he's he said this himself. And And one of the accusations about him is is that of the accusations about him is is that of the accusations about him is is that he's a narcissist. And that, you know, he's a narcissist. And that, you know, he's a narcissist. And that, you know, and that he is not really able to see and that he is not really able to see and that he is not really able to see past his own nose at times. past his own nose at times. past his own nose at times. And so, that that there's always like a And so, that that there's always like a And so, that that there's always like a little bit of a gap between how he sees little bit of a gap between how he sees little bit of a gap between how he sees himself and how other people see him. himself and how other people see him. himself and how other people see him. But, of course, that's what makes people But, of course, that's what makes people But, of course, that's what makes people interesting. And that's as as interesting. And that's as as interesting. And that's as as documentarians, those are the people documentarians, those are the people documentarians, those are the people you're drawn to. you're drawn to. you're drawn to. >> I wanted the audience to see Stefan as >> I wanted the audience to see Stefan as >> I wanted the audience to see Stefan as Stefan. Like, just no filter. Just Stefan. Like, just no filter. Just Stefan. Like, just no filter. Just that's that is the experience what it is that's that is the experience what it is that's that is the experience what it is like to be in Stefan's presence, having like to be in Stefan's presence, having like to be in Stefan's presence, having a conversation with Stefan.

a conversation with Stefan. a conversation with Stefan. You need to feel that. You need to to You need to feel that. You need to to You need to feel that. You need to to sort of see the sort of see the sort of see the never-ending quality of it at times and never-ending quality of it at times and never-ending quality of it at times and and the lack of filter to to really make and the lack of filter to to really make and the lack of filter to to really make a decision about what you've just seen. a decision about what you've just seen. a decision about what you've just seen. >> Yeah, exactly. And again, these are >> Yeah, exactly. And again, these are >> Yeah, exactly. And again, these are allegations. He denies them. You know, allegations. He denies them. You know, allegations. He denies them. You know, there there was a legal battle involved. there there was a legal battle involved. there there was a legal battle involved. So, So, So, I just again, you know, I just again, you know, I just again, you know, I Here's what I I can't I I I can't I Here's what I I can't I I I can't I Here's what I I can't I I I can't balance here. He claims in so many of balance here. He claims in so many of balance here. He claims in so many of your interviews, he claims, you know, if your interviews, he claims, you know, if your interviews, he claims, you know, if I did anything wrong, I'm really sorry. I did anything wrong, I'm really sorry. I did anything wrong, I'm really sorry. I didn't realize I you know, I I I I didn't realize I you know, I I I I didn't realize I you know, I I I apologize to them. I'm like, if I did apologize to them. I'm like, if I did apologize to them. I'm like, if I did anything wrong. Like, that kind of anything wrong. Like, that kind of anything wrong. Like, that kind of growth, if you will. But then, at the growth, if you will. But then, at the growth, if you will. But then, at the back end of back end of back end of episode 3, where he calls them all episode 3, where he calls them all episode 3, where he calls them all [ __ ] I'm like, okay then. I think we [ __ ] I'm like, okay then. I think we [ __ ] I'm like, okay then. I think we know know know how you feel about these allegations. how you feel about these allegations. how you feel about these allegations. >> 50% of the viewers are going to come out >> 50% of the viewers are going to come out >> 50% of the viewers are going to come out of this the way you do and then another of this the way you do and then another of this the way you do and then another 50% are going to come out of this and 50% are going to come out of this and 50% are going to come out of this and go, you know, go, you know, go, you know, "They're just bitter and and, you know, "They're just bitter and and, you know, "They're just bitter and and, you know, they're everyone's too sensitive these they're everyone's too sensitive these they're everyone's too sensitive these days and, you know, and everyone needs days and, you know, and everyone needs days and, you know, and everyone needs to grow up and uh you know, and this to grow up and uh you know, and this to grow up and uh you know, and this this guy, you know, it's obvious who this guy, you know, it's obvious who this guy, you know, it's obvious who this guy is and if you don't want it, this guy is and if you don't want it, this guy is and if you don't want it, you could leave. No one was being held you could leave. No one was being held you could leave. No one was being held prisoner there." So, you could come to prisoner there." So, you could come to prisoner there." So, you could come to that conclusion as well and I think if that conclusion as well and I think if that conclusion as well and I think if we if we did our job right and the we if we did our job right and the we if we did our job right and the audience will tell us

audience will tell us audience will tell us um I think you you you get a really full um I think you you you get a really full um I think you you you get a really full picture of this world and why people picture of this world and why people picture of this world and why people make the sets of decisions that they do. make the sets of decisions that they do. make the sets of decisions that they do. >> Mhm. Yeah, I think I do believe it was >> Mhm. Yeah, I think I do believe it was >> Mhm. Yeah, I think I do believe it was balanced and there were some things like balanced and there were some things like balanced and there were some things like I wrote this down um because I just love I wrote this down um because I just love I wrote this down um because I just love this quote and I think this is everyone this quote and I think this is everyone this quote and I think this is everyone can just totally understand this when can just totally understand this when can just totally understand this when one of the women you interviewed said, one of the women you interviewed said, one of the women you interviewed said, "Quit waiting to live your life until "Quit waiting to live your life until "Quit waiting to live your life until you're skinny." you're skinny." you're skinny." >> That's Cass. >> That's Cass. >> That's Cass. >> And I loved that because I think we're >> And I loved that because I think we're >> And I loved that because I think we're all, you know, wherever we are in our all, you know, wherever we are in our all, you know, wherever we are in our world, we're always trying to be, "Oh, world, we're always trying to be, "Oh, world, we're always trying to be, "Oh, maybe, you know, my tummy could be maybe, you know, my tummy could be maybe, you know, my tummy could be smaller. Maybe I could lose some weight smaller. Maybe I could lose some weight smaller. Maybe I could lose some weight or maybe if I were younger or, you know, or maybe if I were younger or, you know, or maybe if I were younger or, you know, if I had fuller hair or I were taller or if I had fuller hair or I were taller or if I had fuller hair or I were taller or I was shorter or I was Do you know what I was shorter or I was Do you know what I was shorter or I was Do you know what I mean? We all go through that process I mean? We all go through that process I mean? We all go through that process of figuring out our best selves and in of figuring out our best selves and in of figuring out our best selves and in doing so, we're life is just passing us doing so, we're life is just passing us doing so, we're life is just passing us by while we're so busy by while we're so busy by while we're so busy with these things about ourselves that with these things about ourselves that with these things about ourselves that maybe we're not happy about. So, when maybe we're not happy about. So, when maybe we're not happy about. So, when she said, again, I wrote it down, "Quit she said, again, I wrote it down, "Quit she said, again, I wrote it down, "Quit waiting to live your life until you're waiting to live your life until you're waiting to live your life until you're skinny." I I just I loved that.

skinny." I I just I loved that. skinny." I I just I loved that. >> Well, I I've I've seen the ending of of >> Well, I I've I've seen the ending of of >> Well, I I've I've seen the ending of of this obviously like 30 times now and I this obviously like 30 times now and I this obviously like 30 times now and I cry each time. cry each time. cry each time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's It's like a really emotional >> It's It's like a really emotional >> It's It's like a really emotional ending. So, it's uh ending. So, it's uh ending. So, it's uh uh I I I don't know. You did it's just uh I I I don't know. You did it's just uh I I I don't know. You did it's just this hopefully uh you know in in Cass this hopefully uh you know in in Cass this hopefully uh you know in in Cass hopefully not just because she was so hopefully not just because she was so hopefully not just because she was so glamorous but but but because of who she glamorous but but but because of who she glamorous but but but because of who she was and what she went through. was and what she went through. was and what she went through. It just you know when she dies it's just It just you know when she dies it's just It just you know when she dies it's just a very powerful moment and and a very powerful moment and and a very powerful moment and and devastating moment that it should happen devastating moment that it should happen devastating moment that it should happen at all. at all. at all. >> Yeah, I again I think there's just so >> Yeah, I again I think there's just so >> Yeah, I again I think there's just so much so much that you all touched on. much so much that you all touched on. much so much that you all touched on. Well this has just been truly a Well this has just been truly a Well this has just been truly a fascinating conversation and I again I fascinating conversation and I again I fascinating conversation and I again I I'm just not complimenting you for the I'm just not complimenting you for the I'm just not complimenting you for the sake of complimenting you I thoroughly sake of complimenting you I thoroughly sake of complimenting you I thoroughly thought that this was brilliantly done thought that this was brilliantly done thought that this was brilliantly done because of how complicated and layered because of how complicated and layered because of how complicated and layered your storytelling was and how compelling your storytelling was and how compelling your storytelling was and how compelling so many of the people were. So I and I so many of the people were. So I and I so many of the people were. So I and I think you did it you know the tone was think you did it you know the tone was think you did it you know the tone was just right and as balanced as could be just right and as balanced as could be just right and as balanced as could be and that you were very sensitive to the and that you were very sensitive to the and that you were very sensitive to the survivors.

survivors. survivors. >> So thank you and and thank you for sort >> So thank you and and thank you for sort >> So thank you and and thank you for sort of seeing it in the way we intended to of seeing it in the way we intended to of seeing it in the way we intended to make it. So that that's that's that's make it. So that that's that's that's make it. So that that's that's that's very powerful that that you you you read very powerful that that you you you read very powerful that that you you you read it as deeply as you did. So thank you. it as deeply as you did. So thank you. it as deeply as you did. So thank you. >> Oh no thank you. So we want to remind >> Oh no thank you. So we want to remind >> Oh no thank you. So we want to remind everyone everyone everyone that this is an Investigation that this is an Investigation that this is an Investigation Discovery series called Big Girls Wanted Discovery series called Big Girls Wanted Discovery series called Big Girls Wanted Escaping Paradise p e a r case you're Escaping Paradise p e a r case you're Escaping Paradise p e a r case you're looking it up but it's streaming looking it up but it's streaming looking it up but it's streaming on HBO. So that's where you can find it. on HBO. So that's where you can find it. on HBO. So that's where you can find it. I I really recommend this I really I I really recommend this I really I I really recommend this I really recommend this it's so nuanced and well recommend this it's so nuanced and well recommend this it's so nuanced and well done. done. done. Michael and Tara thank you so much. Michael and Tara thank you so much. Michael and Tara thank you so much. Where can people either follow you if Where can people either follow you if Where can people either follow you if they're interested in more on this? Do they're interested in more on this? Do they're interested in more on this? Do you have a website dedicated just for you have a website dedicated just for you have a website dedicated just for the docu-series or or where should we the docu-series or or where should we the docu-series or or where should we send people? >> There is the Escaping Paradise on ID >> There is the Escaping Paradise on ID hashtag that I think is going to be an hashtag that I think is going to be an hashtag that I think is going to be an aggregator of everything and all of the aggregator of everything and all of the aggregator of everything and all of the energy collecting online which is is energy collecting online which is is energy collecting online which is is growing. That is the one thing to growing. That is the one thing to growing. That is the one thing to remember about this story. It is such a remember about this story. It is such a remember about this story. It is such a social media online story. So, uh you social media online story. So, uh you social media online story. So, uh you know, there there's a a storm know, there there's a a storm know, there there's a a storm cloud that just keeps going and going cloud that just keeps going and going cloud that just keeps going and going and going and lots to dig into. So, and going and lots to dig into. So, and going and lots to dig into. So, escape it hashtag escape in paradise on escape it hashtag escape in paradise on escape it hashtag escape in paradise on ID.

ID. ID. >> Excellent. Excellent. Well, thank you >> Excellent. Excellent. Well, thank you >> Excellent. Excellent. Well, thank you again. Um this has been a special again. Um this has been a special again. Um this has been a special episode of True Crime News the Podcast. episode of True Crime News the Podcast. episode of True Crime News the Podcast. I'm your host, Anna Garcia. As we always I'm your host, Anna Garcia. As we always I'm your host, Anna Garcia. As we always say, crime never stops and neither say, crime never stops and neither say, crime never stops and neither [music] do we.