Teen allegedly had mom help cover up girlfriend’s slaying; Lindsay Clancy jurors speak out

Hello and welcome to the Sidebar, Hello and welcome to the Sidebar, presented by True Crime News, taking you presented by True Crime News, taking you presented by True Crime News, taking you inside the courtrooms of high-profile inside the courtrooms of high-profile inside the courtrooms of high-profile and notorious cases from across the and notorious cases from across the and notorious cases from across the country. I'm your host, Joshua Ritter. country. I'm your host, Joshua Ritter. country. I'm your host, Joshua Ritter. I'm a criminal defense lawyer based in I'm a criminal defense lawyer based in I'm a criminal defense lawyer based in Los Angeles and previously an LA County Los Angeles and previously an LA County Los Angeles and previously an LA County prosecutor for a decade. We are prosecutor for a decade. We are prosecutor for a decade. We are recording this on Wednesday, September recording this on Wednesday, September recording this on Wednesday, September 9th, 2026. In this week's episode, a 9th, 2026. In this week's episode, a 9th, 2026. In this week's episode, a family duo behind bars after a teen family duo behind bars after a teen family duo behind bars after a teen allegedly killed his girlfriend and then allegedly killed his girlfriend and then allegedly killed his girlfriend and then his mother helped him clean it up. Plus, his mother helped him clean it up. Plus, his mother helped him clean it up. Plus, jurors speak out about the stalled jurors speak out about the stalled jurors speak out about the stalled deliberations in the mistrial of deliberations in the mistrial of deliberations in the mistrial of Lindseay Clancy. But first, a husband Lindseay Clancy. But first, a husband Lindseay Clancy. But first, a husband accused of his wife's murder is back accused of his wife's murder is back accused of his wife's murder is back behind bars after his bail was raised to behind bars after his bail was raised to behind bars after his bail was raised to an insurmountable sum. [clears throat] an insurmountable sum. [clears throat] an insurmountable sum. [clears throat] Today we are joined by Jack Rice, an Today we are joined by Jack Rice, an Today we are joined by Jack Rice, an attorney and legal analyst you can catch attorney and legal analyst you can catch attorney and legal analyst you can catch on multiple media outlets. Jack, welcome on multiple media outlets. Jack, welcome on multiple media outlets. Jack, welcome back, my friend. How are you? back, my friend. How are you? back, my friend. How are you? >> Uh, just great. Great to be with you. >> Uh, just great. Great to be with you. >> Uh, just great. Great to be with you. I'm watching you from afar, my friend. I'm watching you from afar, my friend. I'm watching you from afar, my friend. My god, My god, My god, >> thank you so much. Um, a lot of >> thank you so much. Um, a lot of >> thank you so much. Um, a lot of craziness going on in the world. Uh, craziness going on in the world. Uh, craziness going on in the world. Uh, we're going to get into all of it, but we're going to get into all of it, but we're going to get into all of it, but first, I'm glad that we have you on as a first, I'm glad that we have you on as a first, I'm glad that we have you on as a very experienced um, trial and defense very experienced um, trial and defense very experienced um, trial and defense attorney. We were just talking about how attorney. We were just talking about how attorney. We were just talking about how busy you are. uh before we started to busy you are. uh before we started to busy you are. uh before we started to record uh because this first case uh record uh because this first case uh record uh because this first case uh deals with an issue that I think some deals with an issue that I think some deals with an issue that I think some people don't entirely appreciate how it people don't entirely appreciate how it people don't entirely appreciate how it works. So that's my setup. Let's just works. So that's my setup. Let's just works. So that's my setup. Let's just jump into it. Out of Alamosa County, jump into it. Out of Alamosa County, jump into it. Out of Alamosa County, Colorado, a husband released on bond uh Colorado, a husband released on bond uh Colorado, a husband released on bond uh saw his bail raised to a staggering 10 saw his bail raised to a staggering 10 saw his bail raised to a staggering 10 million for alleged bail infractions

million for alleged bail infractions million for alleged bail infractions ahead of his trial for his wife's ahead of his trial for his wife's ahead of his trial for his wife's murder. Initially, Barry Morphw was murder. Initially, Barry Morphw was murder. Initially, Barry Morphw was allowed to walk out of a jail cell after allowed to walk out of a jail cell after allowed to walk out of a jail cell after using a bondsman to post bail, offering using a bondsman to post bail, offering using a bondsman to post bail, offering up 10% of the court's original $3 up 10% of the court's original $3 up 10% of the court's original $3 million order. However, on release, million order. However, on release, million order. However, on release, Morphe was allegedly behind the wheel in Morphe was allegedly behind the wheel in Morphe was allegedly behind the wheel in a hit-and-run crash that took place in a hit-and-run crash that took place in a hit-and-run crash that took place in Denver last month. For that infraction, Denver last month. For that infraction, Denver last month. For that infraction, the judge changed the bond to cash only the judge changed the bond to cash only the judge changed the bond to cash only and then raised the Sun to 10 million and then raised the Sun to 10 million and then raised the Sun to 10 million after prosecutors argued that Morphew after prosecutors argued that Morphew after prosecutors argued that Morphew posed a flight risk. Morphw faces one posed a flight risk. Morphw faces one posed a flight risk. Morphw faces one count of first-degree murder in the count of first-degree murder in the count of first-degree murder in the death of his wife, Suzanne Morphwu, who death of his wife, Suzanne Morphwu, who death of his wife, Suzanne Morphwu, who disappeared on Mother's Day 2020. Though disappeared on Mother's Day 2020. Though disappeared on Mother's Day 2020. Though he had restrictions on his release ahead he had restrictions on his release ahead he had restrictions on his release ahead of the trial scheduled for July of next of the trial scheduled for July of next of the trial scheduled for July of next year, prosecutors claimed that Morphw year, prosecutors claimed that Morphw year, prosecutors claimed that Morphw was roaming freely for unspecified was roaming freely for unspecified was roaming freely for unspecified purposes, even making a trip to the purposes, even making a trip to the purposes, even making a trip to the Denver airport. The man man's defense Denver airport. The man man's defense Denver airport. The man man's defense unsuccessfully argued that Morfu hasn't unsuccessfully argued that Morfu hasn't unsuccessfully argued that Morfu hasn't attempted to flee in the six years attempted to flee in the six years attempted to flee in the six years following Suzanne's death and hope to following Suzanne's death and hope to following Suzanne's death and hope to prove his innocence in court. Now, he'll prove his innocence in court. Now, he'll prove his innocence in court. Now, he'll likely be preparing for the case behind likely be preparing for the case behind likely be preparing for the case behind bars because of the alleged infractions.

bars because of the alleged infractions. bars because of the alleged infractions. So, explain this to us. You know, we So, explain this to us. You know, we So, explain this to us. You know, we talk about bail not really being about talk about bail not really being about talk about bail not really being about money, but in a situation like this, money, but in a situation like this, money, but in a situation like this, they raise it to $10 million. It's all they raise it to $10 million. It's all they raise it to $10 million. It's all cash now, meaning he has to come up with cash now, meaning he has to come up with cash now, meaning he has to come up with $10 million. $10 million. $10 million. Isn't that essentially no bail? And do Isn't that essentially no bail? And do Isn't that essentially no bail? And do you think that's the right move? And how you think that's the right move? And how you think that's the right move? And how will this alter the case? jump into jump will this alter the case? jump into jump will this alter the case? jump into jump into this one for us. into this one for us. into this one for us. >> Well, of course it's no bail. I mean, >> Well, of course it's no bail. I mean, >> Well, of course it's no bail. I mean, that's the point. And by the way, not that's the point. And by the way, not that's the point. And by the way, not every jurisdiction is required to set an every jurisdiction is required to set an every jurisdiction is required to set an a bail amount. Some can actually hold a bail amount. Some can actually hold a bail amount. Some can actually hold them or hold somebody over for trial in them or hold somebody over for trial in them or hold somebody over for trial in cases like that. Where I am right now, cases like that. Where I am right now, cases like that. Where I am right now, the the the uh judge has to set a bail the the the uh judge has to set a bail the the the uh judge has to set a bail amount, a cash bail amount without amount, a cash bail amount without amount, a cash bail amount without conditions. And then there can be an conditions. And then there can be an conditions. And then there can be an alternate to that. And so every alternate to that. And so every alternate to that. And so every jurisdiction is a little bit different. jurisdiction is a little bit different. jurisdiction is a little bit different. But the purpose here was to keep him in But the purpose here was to keep him in But the purpose here was to keep him in jail. I mean, [clears throat] we have to jail. I mean, [clears throat] we have to jail. I mean, [clears throat] we have to look at the procedural posture of this look at the procedural posture of this look at the procedural posture of this case and and the investigation itself. case and and the investigation itself. case and and the investigation itself. She disappears in 2020, right? He gets She disappears in 2020, right? He gets She disappears in 2020, right? He gets charged in 2021. They dismiss the case charged in 2021. They dismiss the case charged in 2021. They dismiss the case in 2022 because they don't have a body.

in 2022 because they don't have a body. in 2022 because they don't have a body. And there is a realistic problem that And there is a realistic problem that And there is a realistic problem that prosecutors have. I know you were a prosecutors have. I know you were a prosecutors have. I know you were a former prosecutor. I am too. And if former prosecutor. I am too. And if former prosecutor. I am too. And if you're trying to convince jury that you're trying to convince jury that you're trying to convince jury that somebody killed somebody else, you somebody killed somebody else, you somebody killed somebody else, you better first be able to prove that better first be able to prove that better first be able to prove that they're dead. And so that's a piece they're dead. And so that's a piece they're dead. And so that's a piece here. And so in 2022 when they don't here. And so in 2022 when they don't here. And so in 2022 when they don't have a body, the state dismisses the have a body, the state dismisses the have a body, the state dismisses the case. The thing is they find her body in case. The thing is they find her body in case. The thing is they find her body in 2023. So it changes the circumstances. 2023. So it changes the circumstances. 2023. So it changes the circumstances. Now let's look at this case. When a Now let's look at this case. When a Now let's look at this case. When a judge is set in bail, generally there's judge is set in bail, generally there's judge is set in bail, generally there's two ways that they do it. They're going two ways that they do it. They're going two ways that they do it. They're going to look at whether or not somebody's a to look at whether or not somebody's a to look at whether or not somebody's a flight risk. In other words, whether or flight risk. In other words, whether or flight risk. In other words, whether or not they're going to reappear. They're not they're going to reappear. They're not they're going to reappear. They're always looking at that issue, right? And always looking at that issue, right? And always looking at that issue, right? And the other one is are they a general the other one is are they a general the other one is are they a general danger to society or or to a potentially danger to society or or to a potentially danger to society or or to a potentially a person to a [clears throat] particular a person to a [clears throat] particular a person to a [clears throat] particular person or to society as a whole. So it's person or to society as a whole. So it's person or to society as a whole. So it's different than just simply saying you're different than just simply saying you're different than just simply saying you're going to show back up. It's the concern going to show back up. It's the concern going to show back up. It's the concern that they're going to do the things that that they're going to do the things that that they're going to do the things that they're obligated to do as they are they're obligated to do as they are they're obligated to do as they are ordered by the court. In this particular ordered by the court. In this particular ordered by the court. In this particular case, what we have and I can almost case, what we have and I can almost case, what we have and I can almost guarantee that part of the conditions of guarantee that part of the conditions of guarantee that part of the conditions of his release are that he remain lawbagen.

his release are that he remain lawbagen. his release are that he remain lawbagen. That's going to be number one. And so That's going to be number one. And so That's going to be number one. And so the idea of a hit and run, so he he the idea of a hit and run, so he he the idea of a hit and run, so he he actually gets into a car accident and actually gets into a car accident and actually gets into a car accident and then takes off, that in itself is a then takes off, that in itself is a then takes off, that in itself is a crime. That in itself is a violation of crime. That in itself is a violation of crime. That in itself is a violation of the conditions of release that he posted the conditions of release that he posted the conditions of release that he posted as part of that $3 million bail. Right? as part of that $3 million bail. Right? as part of that $3 million bail. Right? And so if you paid 10% of that, And so if you paid 10% of that, And so if you paid 10% of that, typically this is the way bail works if typically this is the way bail works if typically this is the way bail works if you want to go real broad is that what you want to go real broad is that what you want to go real broad is that what will happen is that you have the ability will happen is that you have the ability will happen is that you have the ability sometimes to go to a bondsman and that sometimes to go to a bondsman and that sometimes to go to a bondsman and that bo bondsman will post a 10% bond on your bo bondsman will post a 10% bond on your bo bondsman will post a 10% bond on your behalf. They essentially say, I behalf. They essentially say, I behalf. They essentially say, I guarantee that this person will show guarantee that this person will show guarantee that this person will show back up. And so as a result, he probably back up. And so as a result, he probably back up. And so as a result, he probably had to pay a bondsman $300,000. had to pay a bondsman $300,000. had to pay a bondsman $300,000. the bondsman gets to keep that until the the bondsman gets to keep that until the the bondsman gets to keep that until the end of the case unless he violates. Then end of the case unless he violates. Then end of the case unless he violates. Then they can actually take it and go after they can actually take it and go after they can actually take it and go after the bondsman for the whole 3 million the bondsman for the whole 3 million the bondsman for the whole 3 million which means the bondsman will come after which means the bondsman will come after which means the bondsman will come after you for the $3 million and then they've you for the $3 million and then they've you for the $3 million and then they've raised it back up. So if we think about raised it back up. So if we think about raised it back up. So if we think about this, we have the hit and run. That's this, we have the hit and run. That's this, we have the hit and run. That's one piece. But there's also the sort of one piece. But there's also the sort of one piece. But there's also the sort of meandering around doing whatever else it meandering around doing whatever else it meandering around doing whatever else it is that you're doing. Well, that's also is that you're doing. Well, that's also is that you're doing. Well, that's also one of the conditions of his probation one of the conditions of his probation one of the conditions of his probation or his release ending the trial itself.

or his release ending the trial itself. or his release ending the trial itself. And so again, it's not going to be the And so again, it's not going to be the And so again, it's not going to be the flight risk issue. Although what the flight risk issue. Although what the flight risk issue. Although what the prosecution actually did was they said, prosecution actually did was they said, prosecution actually did was they said, "We are concerned about the flight risk "We are concerned about the flight risk "We are concerned about the flight risk because what it says about this man is because what it says about this man is because what it says about this man is that he's more than willing to ignore that he's more than willing to ignore that he's more than willing to ignore any court order. He doesn't care what any court order. He doesn't care what any court order. He doesn't care what the judge wants. And by the way, if the judge wants. And by the way, if the judge wants. And by the way, if you're a smart prosecutor, what you say, you're a smart prosecutor, what you say, you're a smart prosecutor, what you say, your honor, he doesn't care what you your honor, he doesn't care what you your honor, he doesn't care what you think. You can say anything that you think. You can say anything that you think. You can say anything that you want because he's above that. He thinks want because he's above that. He thinks want because he's above that. He thinks that he's special. He thinks that he can that he's special. He thinks that he can that he's special. He thinks that he can do whatever he wants because he is him. do whatever he wants because he is him. do whatever he wants because he is him. Well, guess what? It's time for you, I Well, guess what? It's time for you, I Well, guess what? It's time for you, I think, if you think this is appropriate, think, if you think this is appropriate, think, if you think this is appropriate, your honor, to send a message to him your honor, to send a message to him your honor, to send a message to him that actually what you say does matter that actually what you say does matter that actually what you say does matter because we as part of the state believe because we as part of the state believe because we as part of the state believe that it does. That's going to be the that it does. That's going to be the that it does. That's going to be the argument that you make. and apparently argument that you make. and apparently argument that you make. and apparently the judge pit. the judge pit. the judge pit. >> Yeah. Um, now, how does this change >> Yeah. Um, now, how does this change >> Yeah. Um, now, how does this change things for him in his defense? Because I things for him in his defense? Because I things for him in his defense? Because I think this trial was originally think this trial was originally think this trial was originally scheduled to begin next year. Uh, I scheduled to begin next year. Uh, I scheduled to begin next year. Uh, I imagine he doesn't want to drag his feet imagine he doesn't want to drag his feet imagine he doesn't want to drag his feet anymore and is, you know, this could anymore and is, you know, this could anymore and is, you know, this could dramatically, I guess, affect the dramatically, I guess, affect the dramatically, I guess, affect the dynamics of his defense. No.

dynamics of his defense. No. dynamics of his defense. No. >> Yeah. Yeah. You bet. [laughter] I mean, >> Yeah. Yeah. You bet. [laughter] I mean, >> Yeah. Yeah. You bet. [laughter] I mean, I don't know if you heard what I just I don't know if you heard what I just I don't know if you heard what I just said. Sucks. said. Sucks. said. Sucks. >> You know what it sucks for? It sucks for >> You know what it sucks for? It sucks for >> You know what it sucks for? It sucks for him because obviously let's if we have a him because obviously let's if we have a him because obviously let's if we have a presumption of innocence and I still presumption of innocence and I still presumption of innocence and I still think that's a that's a dubious claim in think that's a that's a dubious claim in think that's a that's a dubious claim in this country frequently uh uh but if we this country frequently uh uh but if we this country frequently uh uh but if we go with the concept that he has a go with the concept that he has a go with the concept that he has a presumption of innocence then we have an presumption of innocence then we have an presumption of innocence then we have an innocent man behind bars innocent man behind bars innocent man behind bars >> right if we accept this premise um >> right if we accept this premise um >> right if we accept this premise um there's another aspect to this too from there's another aspect to this too from there's another aspect to this too from the perspective of his defense attorneys the perspective of his defense attorneys the perspective of his defense attorneys it becomes much more difficult when you it becomes much more difficult when you it becomes much more difficult when you have somebody behind bars who work with have somebody behind bars who work with have somebody behind bars who work with him to prepare him for trial, to sit him to prepare him for trial, to sit him to prepare him for trial, to sit down with evidence, to sit down and work down with evidence, to sit down and work down with evidence, to sit down and work through video, to be able to spend the through video, to be able to spend the through video, to be able to spend the time necessary. When I'm revving up for time necessary. When I'm revving up for time necessary. When I'm revving up for a trial, as I am right now, I'll have a trial, as I am right now, I'll have a trial, as I am right now, I'll have people in in my offices for hours and people in in my offices for hours and people in in my offices for hours and hours, and they will come in waves of hours, and they will come in waves of hours, and they will come in waves of people. And so, this is all being done people. And so, this is all being done people. And so, this is all being done so I can prepare everybody in the room so I can prepare everybody in the room so I can prepare everybody in the room to have a consistent defense with a to have a consistent defense with a to have a consistent defense with a narrative that runs through everybody.

narrative that runs through everybody. narrative that runs through everybody. That's very hard to do when you have That's very hard to do when you have That's very hard to do when you have somebody behind bars because they're somebody behind bars because they're somebody behind bars because they're distracted. They're tired, they're distracted. They're tired, they're distracted. They're tired, they're exhausted, they might be afraid, they exhausted, they might be afraid, they exhausted, they might be afraid, they might there might be all sorts of might there might be all sorts of might there might be all sorts of things. It just makes it more difficult. things. It just makes it more difficult. things. It just makes it more difficult. What it may also do is change the What it may also do is change the What it may also do is change the timeline because generally speaking, timeline because generally speaking, timeline because generally speaking, when you're arrested and charged with a when you're arrested and charged with a when you're arrested and charged with a crime, you have the right to have a crime, you have the right to have a crime, you have the right to have a trial generally within a very specific trial generally within a very specific trial generally within a very specific period of time unless you wave that period of time unless you wave that period of time unless you wave that timeline. And in this particular case, timeline. And in this particular case, timeline. And in this particular case, they would have waved it, but they may they would have waved it, but they may they would have waved it, but they may actually come back and say, "We don't actually come back and say, "We don't actually come back and say, "We don't want to wait for another year. We don't want to wait for another year. We don't want to wait for another year. We don't want to wait for another another nine want to wait for another another nine want to wait for another another nine months. Rather, we want to have this months. Rather, we want to have this months. Rather, we want to have this case set for trial as soon as possible case set for trial as soon as possible case set for trial as soon as possible and we want to go to trial. So, you may and we want to go to trial. So, you may and we want to go to trial. So, you may drive that and see that shift, too. So, drive that and see that shift, too. So, drive that and see that shift, too. So, this the entire dynamics of this case this the entire dynamics of this case this the entire dynamics of this case are changing based upon this hit and run are changing based upon this hit and run are changing based upon this hit and run and apparently the random driving around and apparently the random driving around and apparently the random driving around Denver. Denver. Denver. >> Yeah. Yeah, I guess the lesson learned >> Yeah. Yeah, I guess the lesson learned >> Yeah. Yeah, I guess the lesson learned here is if you're out on bail and you've here is if you're out on bail and you've here is if you're out on bail and you've got restrictions and uh you're looking got restrictions and uh you're looking got restrictions and uh you're looking at murder charges, how about just behave at murder charges, how about just behave at murder charges, how about just behave yourself? Just behave yourself and and yourself? Just behave yourself and and yourself? Just behave yourself and and things are probably going to go a lot things are probably going to go a lot things are probably going to go a lot more smoothly for you. A lesson that he more smoothly for you. A lesson that he more smoothly for you. A lesson that he uh I'm sure wish he had learned earlier.

uh I'm sure wish he had learned earlier. uh I'm sure wish he had learned earlier. Uh let's leave it there for now. We're Uh let's leave it there for now. We're Uh let's leave it there for now. We're continuing to follow that trial. I know continuing to follow that trial. I know continuing to follow that trial. I know that a lot of people are tracking it, that a lot of people are tracking it, that a lot of people are tracking it, but we'll move to another huge trial but we'll move to another huge trial but we'll move to another huge trial that dominated the media and the world that dominated the media and the world that dominated the media and the world attention over the last couple of attention over the last couple of attention over the last couple of months. That was out of Plymouth, months. That was out of Plymouth, months. That was out of Plymouth, Massachusetts. Days after the dramatic Massachusetts. Days after the dramatic Massachusetts. Days after the dramatic mistrial of Lindseay Clancy, jurors are mistrial of Lindseay Clancy, jurors are mistrial of Lindseay Clancy, jurors are speaking out about the 11 to1 hold out speaking out about the 11 to1 hold out speaking out about the 11 to1 hold out that prevented the case from reaching a that prevented the case from reaching a that prevented the case from reaching a possible conclusion. Clancy faced three possible conclusion. Clancy faced three possible conclusion. Clancy faced three counts of first-degree murder for the counts of first-degree murder for the counts of first-degree murder for the strangulation deaths of her three strangulation deaths of her three strangulation deaths of her three children, Kora, Dawson, and Ken. The children, Kora, Dawson, and Ken. The children, Kora, Dawson, and Ken. The high-profile trial caught the attention high-profile trial caught the attention high-profile trial caught the attention and eye of viewers across the globe as and eye of viewers across the globe as and eye of viewers across the globe as spectators argued about the mother's spectators argued about the mother's spectators argued about the mother's mental state in the wake of her actions. mental state in the wake of her actions. mental state in the wake of her actions. After grueling testimony and days of After grueling testimony and days of After grueling testimony and days of deliberation, jurors reached an impass, deliberation, jurors reached an impass, deliberation, jurors reached an impass, telling the judge they were deadlocked. telling the judge they were deadlocked. telling the judge they were deadlocked. However, jurors indicated that there was However, jurors indicated that there was However, jurors indicated that there was one lone hold out who refused to agree one lone hold out who refused to agree one lone hold out who refused to agree to the verdict despite having quote to the verdict despite having quote to the verdict despite having quote unquote reasonable doubt that Clancy unquote reasonable doubt that Clancy unquote reasonable doubt that Clancy acted with calculated malice in the acted with calculated malice in the acted with calculated malice in the slayings. While Clancy's case remains slayings. While Clancy's case remains slayings. While Clancy's case remains unsol unresolved, pardon me, the mother unsol unresolved, pardon me, the mother unsol unresolved, pardon me, the mother is still in a psychiatric facility is still in a psychiatric facility is still in a psychiatric facility awaiting the next steps in the case with awaiting the next steps in the case with awaiting the next steps in the case with a scheduled court date of September a scheduled court date of September a scheduled court date of September 29th. Um, Jack, 29th. Um, Jack, 29th. Um, Jack, I'm curious there. We've now heard from I'm curious there. We've now heard from I'm curious there. We've now heard from these jurors. I don't know how much of these jurors. I don't know how much of these jurors. I don't know how much of the interviews you've watched. They've the interviews you've watched. They've the interviews you've watched. They've given some interesting statements. We given some interesting statements. We given some interesting statements. We have not heard from the loan hold out.

have not heard from the loan hold out. have not heard from the loan hold out. Um there's a little bit of confusion in Um there's a little bit of confusion in Um there's a little bit of confusion in my view as to what exactly this one my view as to what exactly this one my view as to what exactly this one person's position was, but what is your person's position was, but what is your person's position was, but what is your general kind of takeaways from what general kind of takeaways from what general kind of takeaways from what we've learned since the trial has ended? we've learned since the trial has ended? we've learned since the trial has ended? >> It's interesting, Josh. You know, this >> It's interesting, Josh. You know, this >> It's interesting, Josh. You know, this case is is unique. It's unique for a lot case is is unique. It's unique for a lot case is is unique. It's unique for a lot of reasons. And I'm not just talking of reasons. And I'm not just talking of reasons. And I'm not just talking about sort of the facts of the case and about sort of the facts of the case and about sort of the facts of the case and and the idea of putting mental illness and the idea of putting mental illness and the idea of putting mental illness or or incompetency or or incompetency or or incompetency really in the forefront of the minds of really in the forefront of the minds of really in the forefront of the minds of the American citizenry. I I think it's the American citizenry. I I think it's the American citizenry. I I think it's about more than that actually. I think about more than that actually. I think about more than that actually. I think this still goes back to the question of this still goes back to the question of this still goes back to the question of whether mental illness is real because whether mental illness is real because whether mental illness is real because you've watched this too where there are you've watched this too where there are you've watched this too where there are people who will say I don't care she people who will say I don't care she people who will say I don't care she killed three people. killed three people. killed three people. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Which seems to be the argument that is >> Which seems to be the argument that is >> Which seems to be the argument that is made by this lone hold out juror. And so made by this lone hold out juror. And so made by this lone hold out juror. And so what I find fascinating about this is what I find fascinating about this is what I find fascinating about this is that notion right there. You know, one that notion right there. You know, one that notion right there. You know, one of the struggles that that we've been of the struggles that that we've been of the struggles that that we've been seeing in our court systems for a lot of seeing in our court systems for a lot of seeing in our court systems for a lot of people is this is that it's not just the people is this is that it's not just the people is this is that it's not just the presumption of innocence, which you and presumption of innocence, which you and presumption of innocence, which you and I alluded to earlier. It's also about I alluded to earlier. It's also about I alluded to earlier. It's also about the standard of proof. And when I think the standard of proof. And when I think the standard of proof. And when I think about the standard of proof, sometimes I about the standard of proof, sometimes I about the standard of proof, sometimes I think what happens when people are think what happens when people are think what happens when people are watching this these these trials or this watching this these these trials or this watching this these these trials or this trial in particular is they start trial in particular is they start trial in particular is they start deciding which one quote unquote did it.

deciding which one quote unquote did it. deciding which one quote unquote did it. And once they decide who did it, then And once they decide who did it, then And once they decide who did it, then they start stacking themselves up on they start stacking themselves up on they start stacking themselves up on that side and dismissing the other side that side and dismissing the other side that side and dismissing the other side for a whole series of reasons. Well, the for a whole series of reasons. Well, the for a whole series of reasons. Well, the problem is that's not the standard. The problem is that's not the standard. The problem is that's not the standard. The standard when it comes to this issue is standard when it comes to this issue is standard when it comes to this issue is proof beyond a reasonable doubt, which proof beyond a reasonable doubt, which proof beyond a reasonable doubt, which means a singular reasonable doubt, which means a singular reasonable doubt, which means a singular reasonable doubt, which means actually more than that. That means actually more than that. That means actually more than that. That means if there is essentially an means if there is essentially an means if there is essentially an alternate theory that has sufficient alternate theory that has sufficient alternate theory that has sufficient evidence, and the evidence doesn't have evidence, and the evidence doesn't have evidence, and the evidence doesn't have to prove they did it or that they didn't to prove they did it or that they didn't to prove they did it or that they didn't do it, it just has to be enough that do it, it just has to be enough that do it, it just has to be enough that it's a reasonable doubt. And that's all. it's a reasonable doubt. And that's all. it's a reasonable doubt. And that's all. And what I'm seeing in a case like this And what I'm seeing in a case like this And what I'm seeing in a case like this is I'm starting to see sort of the is I'm starting to see sort of the is I'm starting to see sort of the cutting away of that standard to the cutting away of that standard to the cutting away of that standard to the point that it starts to feel like a point that it starts to feel like a point that it starts to feel like a prepoundonderance. It's like it's a prepoundonderance. It's like it's a prepoundonderance. It's like it's a little more likely on my side. I'm little more likely on my side. I'm little more likely on my side. I'm right, you're wrong. But that is not the right, you're wrong. But that is not the right, you're wrong. But that is not the standard in this case. But but if we're standard in this case. But but if we're standard in this case. But but if we're looking at the case itself, looking at the case itself, looking at the case itself, one of the things that maybe some people one of the things that maybe some people one of the things that maybe some people are missing to me is this. when you're are missing to me is this. when you're are missing to me is this. when you're picking a jury, and I know you've picked picking a jury, and I know you've picked picking a jury, and I know you've picked a lot of juries, too, is that one of the a lot of juries, too, is that one of the a lot of juries, too, is that one of the things that we're doing is we're trying things that we're doing is we're trying things that we're doing is we're trying to understand people who can be to understand people who can be to understand people who can be objective. Ideally, frankly, from a objective. Ideally, frankly, from a objective. Ideally, frankly, from a defense attorney, we want somebody who's defense attorney, we want somebody who's defense attorney, we want somebody who's going to vote not guilty. I know that.

going to vote not guilty. I know that. going to vote not guilty. I know that. But when we're really talking about this But when we're really talking about this But when we're really talking about this and what the court says is it's about and what the court says is it's about and what the court says is it's about getting somebody who is objective, getting somebody who is objective, getting somebody who is objective, somebody who can be fair, but somebody somebody who can be fair, but somebody somebody who can be fair, but somebody who can apply the law. And in fact, the who can apply the law. And in fact, the who can apply the law. And in fact, the judge is going to ask those people judge is going to ask those people judge is going to ask those people individually, can you follow the law as individually, can you follow the law as individually, can you follow the law as I tell it to you? And if they say no, I tell it to you? And if they say no, I tell it to you? And if they say no, they will be removed as a juror. That's they will be removed as a juror. That's they will be removed as a juror. That's a fact. And they will be. And so what's a fact. And they will be. And so what's a fact. And they will be. And so what's interesting to me in this case is you interesting to me in this case is you interesting to me in this case is you hear, again, this is the conflicting hear, again, this is the conflicting hear, again, this is the conflicting evidence that I find strange is that you evidence that I find strange is that you evidence that I find strange is that you have some people saying that 11 people have some people saying that 11 people have some people saying that 11 people all agreed on not guilty. I would say by all agreed on not guilty. I would say by all agreed on not guilty. I would say by reason of insanity. The language is reason of insanity. The language is reason of insanity. The language is slightly different in in Massachusetts slightly different in in Massachusetts slightly different in in Massachusetts in the Commonwealth. Um, and that the in the Commonwealth. Um, and that the in the Commonwealth. Um, and that the one hold out thought there was one hold out thought there was one hold out thought there was reasonable doubt as well, but they reasonable doubt as well, but they reasonable doubt as well, but they decided that she killed three people, so decided that she killed three people, so decided that she killed three people, so therefore she couldn't they couldn't do therefore she couldn't they couldn't do therefore she couldn't they couldn't do it. That's what I've heard, but it's it. That's what I've heard, but it's it. That's what I've heard, but it's unclear to me if that's in fact what it unclear to me if that's in fact what it unclear to me if that's in fact what it is that the 12th person thinks, is that the 12th person thinks, is that the 12th person thinks, >> right?

>> right? >> right? >> You know, do you see where I'm going on >> You know, do you see where I'm going on >> You know, do you see where I'm going on this? I do because it I was there in this? I do because it I was there in this? I do because it I was there in Plymouth when this was all coming out Plymouth when this was all coming out Plymouth when this was all coming out and when they were discussing the note and when they were discussing the note and when they were discussing the note from the four person from the four person from the four person Readington argued and he never used the Readington argued and he never used the Readington argued and he never used the word reasonable doubt. He kept on saying word reasonable doubt. He kept on saying word reasonable doubt. He kept on saying the juror has indicated he has a doubt the juror has indicated he has a doubt the juror has indicated he has a doubt but won't follow the law. And that's but won't follow the law. And that's but won't follow the law. And that's interesting to me because if it had interesting to me because if it had interesting to me because if it had indicated reasonable doubt, that's indicated reasonable doubt, that's indicated reasonable doubt, that's obviously to your point a a triggering obviously to your point a a triggering obviously to your point a a triggering legal legal legal um question. You know, something should um question. You know, something should um question. You know, something should happen if you believe that you have a happen if you believe that you have a happen if you believe that you have a reasonable doubt. But what if a person reasonable doubt. But what if a person reasonable doubt. But what if a person has doubts that don't rise to that has doubts that don't rise to that has doubts that don't rise to that level? or I have I've heard others uh in level? or I have I've heard others uh in level? or I have I've heard others uh in this jury say something like, "Well, I this jury say something like, "Well, I this jury say something like, "Well, I don't believe that the prosecution don't believe that the prosecution don't believe that the prosecution proved to me that she 100% knew what she proved to me that she 100% knew what she proved to me that she 100% knew what she was doing." And those types of things was doing." And those types of things was doing." And those types of things are again kind of a misunderstanding of are again kind of a misunderstanding of are again kind of a misunderstanding of the of the burden as well.

the of the burden as well. the of the burden as well. >> And we think about what this means >> And we think about what this means >> And we think about what this means because when we think about this idea of because when we think about this idea of because when we think about this idea of doubt beyond a reasonable doubt versus doubt beyond a reasonable doubt versus doubt beyond a reasonable doubt versus 100% true 100% true 100% true >> or no doubt whatsoever. >> or no doubt whatsoever. >> or no doubt whatsoever. >> Right. Right. It isn't 100%. And it's >> Right. Right. It isn't 100%. And it's >> Right. Right. It isn't 100%. And it's not beyond any doubt, not beyond any doubt, not beyond any doubt, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> But it and it's not one of those things >> But it and it's not one of those things >> But it and it's not one of those things where you can say that, well, they where you can say that, well, they where you can say that, well, they didn't prove any possibility of doubt. didn't prove any possibility of doubt. didn't prove any possibility of doubt. But the standard is not much closer than But the standard is not much closer than But the standard is not much closer than that. All it has to be is a doubt by a that. All it has to be is a doubt by a that. All it has to be is a doubt by a reasonable person. If you're a person reasonable person. If you're a person reasonable person. If you're a person who has a doubt and you're a reasonable who has a doubt and you're a reasonable who has a doubt and you're a reasonable person, and we have to believe that all person, and we have to believe that all person, and we have to believe that all 12 of those people are, then my response 12 of those people are, then my response 12 of those people are, then my response is that's a reasonable doubt. At least is that's a reasonable doubt. At least is that's a reasonable doubt. At least that's what I would be arguing. And I that's what I would be arguing. And I that's what I would be arguing. And I think that Red probably should have been think that Red probably should have been think that Red probably should have been arguing at that too. He should have said arguing at that too. He should have said arguing at that too. He should have said he has a reasonable doubt. And if he has he has a reasonable doubt. And if he has he has a reasonable doubt. And if he has a reasonable doubt, that means we win a reasonable doubt, that means we win a reasonable doubt, that means we win >> essentially. >> essentially. >> essentially. >> And and again, part of the problem is I >> And and again, part of the problem is I >> And and again, part of the problem is I think that we're seeing this sort of p think that we're seeing this sort of p think that we're seeing this sort of p [snorts] perception [snorts] perception [snorts] perception that that well, how did she decide to that that well, how did she decide to that that well, how did she decide to kill the oldest child first and kill the oldest child first and kill the oldest child first and therefore that was part of the plan? How therefore that was part of the plan? How therefore that was part of the plan? How did she decide that she wasn't going to did she decide that she wasn't going to did she decide that she wasn't going to cut her uh her her uh arms as deeply as cut her uh her her uh arms as deeply as cut her uh her her uh arms as deeply as she said she was going to or her neck as she said she was going to or her neck as she said she was going to or her neck as deeply as she said? That's part of the deeply as she said? That's part of the deeply as she said? That's part of the plan. This is all goes to the master plan. This is all goes to the master plan. This is all goes to the master plan. And yet my my response is also plan. And yet my my response is also plan. And yet my my response is also multiple experts who come out there and

multiple experts who come out there and multiple experts who come out there and say that she's incompetent. say that she's incompetent. say that she's incompetent. >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> an enormous amount of evidence of about >> an enormous amount of evidence of about >> an enormous amount of evidence of about a diary about how she's literally a diary about how she's literally a diary about how she's literally spinning out of control and that she spinning out of control and that she spinning out of control and that she starts to have thoughts of killing starts to have thoughts of killing starts to have thoughts of killing herself, which is consistent with herself, which is consistent with herself, which is consistent with throwing herself out of a window and throwing herself out of a window and throwing herself out of a window and cutting her own throat and her going cutting her own throat and her going cutting her own throat and her going code blue. All of those are consistent code blue. All of those are consistent code blue. All of those are consistent with that, but also about killing your with that, but also about killing your with that, but also about killing your kids. And so the problem that comes back kids. And so the problem that comes back kids. And so the problem that comes back to this seems to be the rub of can I to this seems to be the rub of can I to this seems to be the rub of can I allow somebody allow somebody allow somebody to be found and I'll use this term not to be found and I'll use this term not to be found and I'll use this term not guilty. And see this is what I hate guilty. And see this is what I hate guilty. And see this is what I hate about the not guilty by reason of about the not guilty by reason of about the not guilty by reason of insanity as a label because I think it's insanity as a label because I think it's insanity as a label because I think it's incorrect. Um incorrect. Um incorrect. Um because she killed her kids. And so you because she killed her kids. And so you because she killed her kids. And so you jumped online. I know you've seen it. jumped online. I know you've seen it. jumped online. I know you've seen it. You've heard it online from You've heard it online from You've heard it online from commentators. You've heard other people commentators. You've heard other people commentators. You've heard other people say this that I can't let this person say this that I can't let this person say this that I can't let this person who killed her three babies walk. I who killed her three babies walk. I who killed her three babies walk. I can't do it. And guess what?

can't do it. And guess what? can't do it. And guess what? That's not the standard. The standard That's not the standard. The standard That's not the standard. The standard isn't if she killed her three kids, she isn't if she killed her three kids, she isn't if she killed her three kids, she did. The question is is can you apply did. The question is is can you apply did. The question is is can you apply the law as it's described to you by the the law as it's described to you by the the law as it's described to you by the judge? And if you can't, you're not judge? And if you can't, you're not judge? And if you can't, you're not allowed to sit on this jury. You're not allowed to sit on this jury. You're not allowed to sit on this jury. You're not allowed. And so that's what makes this allowed. And so that's what makes this allowed. And so that's what makes this case case case go sideways in my mind to some degree. go sideways in my mind to some degree. go sideways in my mind to some degree. You see what I'm saying now? Disagree You see what I'm saying now? Disagree You see what I'm saying now? Disagree with me, brother. I mean, disagree with with me, brother. I mean, disagree with with me, brother. I mean, disagree with me on that. me on that. me on that. >> No, no, no. I don't disagree with you. I >> No, no, no. I don't disagree with you. I >> No, no, no. I don't disagree with you. I just think it's when you were talking just think it's when you were talking just think it's when you were talking about reasonable doubt, you're talking about reasonable doubt, you're talking about reasonable doubt, you're talking about um a subjective standard, what I about um a subjective standard, what I about um a subjective standard, what I can feel. We can both look at the same can feel. We can both look at the same can feel. We can both look at the same evidence and you could say, "Well, I evidence and you could say, "Well, I evidence and you could say, "Well, I have a doubt and that doubt in my head have a doubt and that doubt in my head have a doubt and that doubt in my head is reasonable." And I could say, well, I is reasonable." And I could say, well, I is reasonable." And I could say, well, I I look at this and I can't tell you 100% I look at this and I can't tell you 100% I look at this and I can't tell you 100% what took place, but I know that it what took place, but I know that it what took place, but I know that it doesn't rise to the level of me doesn't rise to the level of me doesn't rise to the level of me believing that there's a reasonable believing that there's a reasonable believing that there's a reasonable doubt. And that's such a strange doubt. And that's such a strange doubt. And that's such a strange situation for the law because it situation for the law because it situation for the law because it requires there's no math there that can requires there's no math there that can requires there's no math there that can solve the problem. It's each person solve the problem. It's each person solve the problem. It's each person bringing their own uh reflection on bringing their own uh reflection on bringing their own uh reflection on where they feel the evidence lands. and where they feel the evidence lands. and where they feel the evidence lands. and this one person. Now, what I will say is this one person. Now, what I will say is this one person. Now, what I will say is if this one person did in fact say, "I if this one person did in fact say, "I if this one person did in fact say, "I have a reasonable doubt, but I'm have a reasonable doubt, but I'm have a reasonable doubt, but I'm ignoring that and I'm convicting her," ignoring that and I'm convicting her," ignoring that and I'm convicting her," then that that's flat out wrong. That's then that that's flat out wrong. That's then that that's flat out wrong. That's flat out against the instructions and flat out against the instructions and flat out against the instructions and and that that person should have been uh and that that person should have been uh and that that person should have been uh dismissed from the jury if that were in dismissed from the jury if that were in dismissed from the jury if that were in fact true. if that were in fact true.

fact true. if that were in fact true. fact true. if that were in fact true. But there's a little question as to But there's a little question as to But there's a little question as to whether whether or not that is in fact whether whether or not that is in fact whether whether or not that is in fact what that person was feeling or or what that person was feeling or or what that person was feeling or or saying to the other jurors. saying to the other jurors. saying to the other jurors. >> Well, if that's the case, then Josh, >> Well, if that's the case, then Josh, >> Well, if that's the case, then Josh, shouldn't have shouldn't have shouldn't have Judge Sullivan, Judge Sullivan, Judge Sullivan, the fact that we know all their names the fact that we know all their names the fact that we know all their names now is so weird. I mean, we're all now is so weird. I mean, we're all now is so weird. I mean, we're all watching us for so long. Shouldn't have watching us for so long. Shouldn't have watching us for so long. Shouldn't have Judge Sullivan called that juror up to Judge Sullivan called that juror up to Judge Sullivan called that juror up to say, say, say, "Do you have doubts? "Do you have doubts? "Do you have doubts? Do you have a reason?" Do you have a reason?" Do you have a reason?" >> Now you're getting into an area that's >> Now you're getting into an area that's >> Now you're getting into an area that's really, really, really, >> really tricky for a judge, right? >> really tricky for a judge, right? >> really tricky for a judge, right? Because now you're getting into Because now you're getting into Because now you're getting into deliberations. What are they thinking? deliberations. What are they thinking? deliberations. What are they thinking? Trying to now single out a particular Trying to now single out a particular Trying to now single out a particular juror as to whether or not their their juror as to whether or not their their juror as to whether or not their their doubts are reasonable or not. And I doubts are reasonable or not. And I doubts are reasonable or not. And I think that's why the judge was so hands think that's why the judge was so hands think that's why the judge was so hands off on it. And I think the judge did the off on it. And I think the judge did the off on it. And I think the judge did the right thing. His hands were tied. right thing. His hands were tied. right thing. His hands were tied. >> If if if he if you think he did the >> If if if he if you think he did the >> If if if he if you think he did the right thing and his hands were tied, are right thing and his hands were tied, are right thing and his hands were tied, are we saying because he didn't bother to we saying because he didn't bother to we saying because he didn't bother to ask the question would rather not know ask the question would rather not know ask the question would rather not know the answer to that?

the answer to that? the answer to that? >> I think he I think the question he had >> I think he I think the question he had >> I think he I think the question he had to ask was do you understand the law and to ask was do you understand the law and to ask was do you understand the law and will you follow the law? And beyond will you follow the law? And beyond will you follow the law? And beyond that, if he starts to inquire, well, that, if he starts to inquire, well, that, if he starts to inquire, well, explain to me what a doubt is explain to me what a doubt is explain to me what a doubt is >> or tell me what you think is reasonable >> or tell me what you think is reasonable >> or tell me what you think is reasonable as a doubt as a doubt as a doubt >> or you're saying it's reasonable, but I >> or you're saying it's reasonable, but I >> or you're saying it's reasonable, but I want to hear what your doubt is. All of want to hear what your doubt is. All of want to hear what your doubt is. All of that, I mean, he has to go. Can you that, I mean, he has to go. Can you that, I mean, he has to go. Can you follow Do you understand the law? Can follow Do you understand the law? Can follow Do you understand the law? Can you follow the law? And if they all say you follow the law? And if they all say you follow the law? And if they all say yes, that's where I say his hands are yes, that's where I say his hands are yes, that's where I say his hands are tied. What any more than that and it I tied. What any more than that and it I tied. What any more than that and it I think they could have said you're you're think they could have said you're you're think they could have said you're you're directing a verdict here. are telling directing a verdict here. are telling directing a verdict here. are telling them what is what to do. them what is what to do. them what is what to do. >> Yeah. I I mean, I'm with you. I mean, >> Yeah. I I mean, I'm with you. I mean, >> Yeah. I I mean, I'm with you. I mean, see, that's what makes it Well, so if we see, that's what makes it Well, so if we see, that's what makes it Well, so if we you mind we stay on this just a little you mind we stay on this just a little you mind we stay on this just a little longer? longer? longer? >> Yeah, sure. >> Yeah, sure. >> Yeah, sure. >> Okay, cool. Because So, so here in >> Okay, cool. Because So, so here in >> Okay, cool. Because So, so here in Minnesota, one of the things they do is Minnesota, one of the things they do is Minnesota, one of the things they do is we have and everybody has these. They're we have and everybody has these. They're we have and everybody has these. They're called jigs, jury instructions. And called jigs, jury instructions. And called jigs, jury instructions. And these are the things that are read to these are the things that are read to these are the things that are read to the jury at the end of a trial. And one the jury at the end of a trial. And one the jury at the end of a trial. And one of the things they say about reasonable of the things they say about reasonable of the things they say about reasonable doubt is they talk about uh the kind of doubt is they talk about uh the kind of doubt is they talk about uh the kind of doubt you would use in your most you you doubt you would use in your most you you doubt you would use in your most you you would use in your most important would use in your most important would use in your most important affairs. That's the language they use in affairs. That's the language they use in affairs. That's the language they use in Minnesota. Frankly, I think the language Minnesota. Frankly, I think the language Minnesota. Frankly, I think the language is wrong.

is wrong. is wrong. >> And my response is like what you mean >> And my response is like what you mean >> And my response is like what you mean like when I decide to get married, like when I decide to get married, like when I decide to get married, >> 55% of first marriages end of course. >> 55% of first marriages end of course. >> 55% of first marriages end of course. Guess what? Guess what? Guess what? >> Not even a prepoundonderance. If you're >> Not even a prepoundonderance. If you're >> Not even a prepoundonderance. If you're buy a house and there's six other people buy a house and there's six other people buy a house and there's six other people who want to buy that house first. If I'm who want to buy that house first. If I'm who want to buy that house first. If I'm going to buy a house in the perfect going to buy a house in the perfect going to buy a house in the perfect world, and I would argue that the world, and I would argue that the world, and I would argue that the criminal justice system, while it isn't, criminal justice system, while it isn't, criminal justice system, while it isn't, it should be the perfect world. My it should be the perfect world. My it should be the perfect world. My response is, I bring in a builder to dig response is, I bring in a builder to dig response is, I bring in a builder to dig into the studs to make sure they were into the studs to make sure they were into the studs to make sure they were they were x number of inches apart. I they were x number of inches apart. I they were x number of inches apart. I bring in an electrician and a plumber bring in an electrician and a plumber bring in an electrician and a plumber and a mason and everybody else, and they and a mason and everybody else, and they and a mason and everybody else, and they all scour every piece of every inch of all scour every piece of every inch of all scour every piece of every inch of this house to determine if something is this house to determine if something is this house to determine if something is the case. And yet we make decisions in the case. And yet we make decisions in the case. And yet we make decisions in our lives all day long almost blind that our lives all day long almost blind that our lives all day long almost blind that are not beyond a reasonable doubt. And are not beyond a reasonable doubt. And are not beyond a reasonable doubt. And in fact, I don't know if we ever go in fact, I don't know if we ever go in fact, I don't know if we ever go beyond a reasonable doubt. Because one beyond a reasonable doubt. Because one beyond a reasonable doubt. Because one of the one of the the examples I like to of the one of the the examples I like to of the one of the the examples I like to use is what would happen if a doctor use is what would happen if a doctor use is what would happen if a doctor came to you and said that your child has came to you and said that your child has came to you and said that your child has to have brain surgery. How careful would to have brain surgery. How careful would to have brain surgery. How careful would you be?

you be? you be? >> Yeah, that's a good one. It's a very >> Yeah, that's a good one. It's a very >> Yeah, that's a good one. It's a very good one. good one. good one. >> I would would you just say, "Yeah, cut >> I would would you just say, "Yeah, cut >> I would would you just say, "Yeah, cut into them, doc. I'm sure you're doing into them, doc. I'm sure you're doing into them, doc. I'm sure you're doing great." Or would you say more than not great." Or would you say more than not great." Or would you say more than not only do I want only do I want only do I want >> quadruple opinions on it? Yeah. >> quadruple opinions on it? Yeah. >> quadruple opinions on it? Yeah. >> I want somebody to dig through in every >> I want somebody to dig through in every >> I want somebody to dig through in every direction before I make that call. And I direction before I make that call. And I direction before I make that call. And I just I'm still struggling with this just I'm still struggling with this just I'm still struggling with this notion of how [snorts] notion of how [snorts] notion of how [snorts] how high of burden are we talking about. how high of burden are we talking about. how high of burden are we talking about. Remember, if we had civil cases, this is Remember, if we had civil cases, this is Remember, if we had civil cases, this is that preponderance 501 to 500, right? that preponderance 501 to 500, right? that preponderance 501 to 500, right? and and proof beyond a reasonable doubt and and proof beyond a reasonable doubt and and proof beyond a reasonable doubt is is the highest standard in American is is the highest standard in American is is the highest standard in American jurist prudence. And I just I just jurist prudence. And I just I just jurist prudence. And I just I just wonder that if we let ourselves wonder that if we let ourselves wonder that if we let ourselves remain blind rather than get the actual remain blind rather than get the actual remain blind rather than get the actual answer. And I totally get the logic of answer. And I totally get the logic of answer. And I totally get the logic of saying will you apply the law? And once saying will you apply the law? And once saying will you apply the law? And once he said I will apply the law that's he said I will apply the law that's he said I will apply the law that's inconsistent with what it is that the inconsistent with what it is that the inconsistent with what it is that the four person said he I was in doubt and I four person said he I was in doubt and I four person said he I was in doubt and I didn't care because he killed three didn't care because he killed three didn't care because he killed three kids. That's not the same thing. And and kids. That's not the same thing. And and kids. That's not the same thing. And and if and and what's interesting too is the if and and what's interesting too is the if and and what's interesting too is the judge never read the note in court. Uh judge never read the note in court. Uh judge never read the note in court. Uh he alluded to it. They alluded to it in he alluded to it. They alluded to it in he alluded to it. They alluded to it in arguments. I would love to see that note arguments. I would love to see that note arguments. I would love to see that note because what the jurors are saying now because what the jurors are saying now because what the jurors are saying now in these interviews afterwards in these interviews afterwards in these interviews afterwards sound far more problematic than what we sound far more problematic than what we sound far more problematic than what we believed the note had said that was believed the note had said that was believed the note had said that was being read in court. You're saying he being read in court. You're saying he being read in court. You're saying he said something like,

said something like, said something like, >> "I have a reasonable doubt, but I'm >> "I have a reasonable doubt, but I'm >> "I have a reasonable doubt, but I'm still not going to v vote not guilty still not going to v vote not guilty still not going to v vote not guilty because I think she killed three kids." because I think she killed three kids." because I think she killed three kids." Like, that to me is a person who is Like, that to me is a person who is Like, that to me is a person who is unabashedly admitting I won't follow the unabashedly admitting I won't follow the unabashedly admitting I won't follow the law no matter what you tell me, law no matter what you tell me, law no matter what you tell me, >> which makes her unqualified to be a >> which makes her unqualified to be a >> which makes her unqualified to be a juror. juror. juror. >> Correct. And should have been removed. >> Correct. And should have been removed. >> Correct. And should have been removed. But there I can't imagine that they was But there I can't imagine that they was But there I can't imagine that they was that explicit in that note. Now, that that explicit in that note. Now, that that explicit in that note. Now, that either means that they did a poor job of either means that they did a poor job of either means that they did a poor job of writing the note or their their um their writing the note or their their um their writing the note or their their um their their coloring of the situation has their coloring of the situation has their coloring of the situation has become a little more effusive since the become a little more effusive since the become a little more effusive since the time that the jury has actually hung. I time that the jury has actually hung. I time that the jury has actually hung. I don't know. I don't I mean, that's why don't know. I don't I mean, that's why don't know. I don't I mean, that's why I'm saying I would love to hear from I'm saying I would love to hear from I'm saying I would love to hear from this juror, this hold out juror, as to this juror, this hold out juror, as to this juror, this hold out juror, as to what exactly his position was on the what exactly his position was on the what exactly his position was on the whole thing. I mean, it's it's whole thing. I mean, it's it's whole thing. I mean, it's it's frustrating beyond belief, I think, for frustrating beyond belief, I think, for frustrating beyond belief, I think, for everybody. Um, to have been that close everybody. Um, to have been that close everybody. Um, to have been that close to a conclusion and certainly for to a conclusion and certainly for to a conclusion and certainly for Readington to feel like he watched a Readington to feel like he watched a Readington to feel like he watched a victory slip through his very fingers victory slip through his very fingers victory slip through his very fingers and then to feel that it was done by a and then to feel that it was done by a and then to feel that it was done by a juror that was ignoring the law. And I'm juror that was ignoring the law. And I'm juror that was ignoring the law. And I'm I'm curious to know if that juror I I'm curious to know if that juror I I'm curious to know if that juror I would love to hear from that juror and would love to hear from that juror and would love to hear from that juror and hopefully one day we will actually hear hopefully one day we will actually hear hopefully one day we will actually hear from that juror. Um, interesting.

from that juror. Um, interesting. from that juror. Um, interesting. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> Yeah. Let's um let's leave it there for >> Yeah. Let's um let's leave it there for >> Yeah. Let's um let's leave it there for now. I'm sure we're going to be talking now. I'm sure we're going to be talking now. I'm sure we're going to be talking about this one again someday soon. Let's about this one again someday soon. Let's about this one again someday soon. Let's move to another interesting case move to another interesting case move to another interesting case involving a potential mental health involving a potential mental health involving a potential mental health defense as well out of Washington defense as well out of Washington defense as well out of Washington County, Pennsylvania. A teen accused of County, Pennsylvania. A teen accused of County, Pennsylvania. A teen accused of his girlfriend slaying faced additional his girlfriend slaying faced additional his girlfriend slaying faced additional charges after prosecutors presented charges after prosecutors presented charges after prosecutors presented evidence suggesting the defendant evidence suggesting the defendant evidence suggesting the defendant recruited his mother to help with the recruited his mother to help with the recruited his mother to help with the cleanup. Royce Moer. One count of cleanup. Royce Moer. One count of cleanup. Royce Moer. One count of first-degree murder for the death of first-degree murder for the death of first-degree murder for the death of Caroline Heints before a charge of Caroline Heints before a charge of Caroline Heints before a charge of criminal use of a communications device criminal use of a communications device criminal use of a communications device was added after the teen allegedly was added after the teen allegedly was added after the teen allegedly enlisted the help of his mother, Rachel enlisted the help of his mother, Rachel enlisted the help of his mother, Rachel Moer, to assist in the cover up of Moer, to assist in the cover up of Moer, to assist in the cover up of Heints's death. While Moer claimed that Heints's death. While Moer claimed that Heints's death. While Moer claimed that a demon took over when he fatally a demon took over when he fatally a demon took over when he fatally stabbed Heints in her vehicle, that stabbed Heints in her vehicle, that stabbed Heints in her vehicle, that defense may lose steam after defense may lose steam after defense may lose steam after investigators revealed the defendant investigators revealed the defendant investigators revealed the defendant Googled phrases related to the crime, Googled phrases related to the crime, Googled phrases related to the crime, including quote, "What removes including quote, "What removes including quote, "What removes fingerprints from objects? What if a fingerprints from objects? What if a fingerprints from objects? What if a demon controlled you and murdered demon controlled you and murdered demon controlled you and murdered someone? And can an 18-year-old get the someone? And can an 18-year-old get the someone? And can an 18-year-old get the death penalty?" Prosecutors claimed that death penalty?" Prosecutors claimed that death penalty?" Prosecutors claimed that couple was on the outs when a couple was on the outs when a couple was on the outs when a conversation in He's vehicle prompted conversation in He's vehicle prompted conversation in He's vehicle prompted Moer to grab a knife and repeatedly stab Moer to grab a knife and repeatedly stab Moer to grab a knife and repeatedly stab the victim. Along with the charges the victim. Along with the charges the victim. Along with the charges facing the young Moer, his mother Rachel facing the young Moer, his mother Rachel facing the young Moer, his mother Rachel is also facing charges of hindering is also facing charges of hindering is also facing charges of hindering apprehension, abuse of a corpse, and apprehension, abuse of a corpse, and apprehension, abuse of a corpse, and tampering with evidence. With the tampering with evidence. With the tampering with evidence. With the preliminary hearing now in the books, we preliminary hearing now in the books, we preliminary hearing now in the books, we will continue to keep you updated ahead will continue to keep you updated ahead will continue to keep you updated ahead of the Moer family's potential trial.

of the Moer family's potential trial. of the Moer family's potential trial. Um, so much to unwind here. First, how much so much to unwind here. First, how much worse does this do you think it makes it worse does this do you think it makes it worse does this do you think it makes it for for for young Moer, the son Royce, that his young Moer, the son Royce, that his young Moer, the son Royce, that his mother got involved after the fact? Do mother got involved after the fact? Do mother got involved after the fact? Do you know what I'm saying? Like, did he you know what I'm saying? Like, did he you know what I'm saying? Like, did he compound his problems that she has compound his problems that she has compound his problems that she has helped after the fact? helped after the fact? helped after the fact? >> Yes. Yes, he did. It's not just the >> Yes. Yes, he did. It's not just the >> Yes. Yes, he did. It's not just the evidence that they had at the crime evidence that they had at the crime evidence that they had at the crime scene, but it's the investigation that scene, but it's the investigation that scene, but it's the investigation that he did himself when he jumps online to he did himself when he jumps online to he did himself when he jumps online to determine what arguments he should make. determine what arguments he should make. determine what arguments he should make. That's that's a nightmare from his That's that's a nightmare from his That's that's a nightmare from his defense team. So, it actually defense team. So, it actually defense team. So, it actually exacerbates all of the charges and exacerbates all of the charges and exacerbates all of the charges and supports the state's argument that he is supports the state's argument that he is supports the state's argument that he is not just guilty of that, but also not just guilty of that, but also not just guilty of that, but also competent and not uh uh in the control competent and not uh uh in the control competent and not uh uh in the control of a demon when he did this thing. So of a demon when he did this thing. So of a demon when he did this thing. So anything that you do that controls it on anything that you do that controls it on anything that you do that controls it on the front end and on the back end can be the front end and on the back end can be the front end and on the back end can be used against you to establish the crimes used against you to establish the crimes used against you to establish the crimes themselves. So if we think of just that themselves. So if we think of just that themselves. So if we think of just that piece of this, this hurts him very much.

piece of this, this hurts him very much. piece of this, this hurts him very much. Talk to us about the potential for a Talk to us about the potential for a Talk to us about the potential for a insanity defense here. He's claiming he insanity defense here. He's claiming he insanity defense here. He's claiming he heard voices. He's claiming that he was heard voices. He's claiming that he was heard voices. He's claiming that he was in the control of a demon to do this. in the control of a demon to do this. in the control of a demon to do this. Right. Right. Right. >> Uh why do you think this case is >> Uh why do you think this case is >> Uh why do you think this case is different from the Clansancy case or do different from the Clansancy case or do different from the Clansancy case or do you think it is the the same as the you think it is the the same as the you think it is the the same as the Clancy case and the the defense has just Clancy case and the the defense has just Clancy case and the the defense has just as strong an argument? [snorts] as strong an argument? [snorts] as strong an argument? [snorts] >> Yeah, I would argue that this case is >> Yeah, I would argue that this case is >> Yeah, I would argue that this case is different for a couple of reasons. This different for a couple of reasons. This different for a couple of reasons. This is more typical if you want to call it is more typical if you want to call it is more typical if you want to call it that than than I see in the Clansancy that than than I see in the Clansancy that than than I see in the Clansancy case. But if we really wanted to make a case. But if we really wanted to make a case. But if we really wanted to make a comparison, let's go back and look at comparison, let's go back and look at comparison, let's go back and look at the Yates case back in 2001. Of course, the Yates case back in 2001. Of course, the Yates case back in 2001. Of course, that's the that's the mother who killed that's the that's the mother who killed that's the that's the mother who killed and drowned all five of her kids. She and drowned all five of her kids. She and drowned all five of her kids. She had a first trial. She was found guilty. had a first trial. She was found guilty. had a first trial. She was found guilty. It went up. It came back down. They It went up. It came back down. They It went up. It came back down. They tried it again. She was found not guilty tried it again. She was found not guilty tried it again. She was found not guilty by reason of insanity. And and in that by reason of insanity. And and in that by reason of insanity. And and in that case, if we're going to make a case, if we're going to make a case, if we're going to make a comparison, she had been hearing voices comparison, she had been hearing voices comparison, she had been hearing voices for years. And she had been talking for years. And she had been talking for years. And she had been talking about those voices and what those voices about those voices and what those voices about those voices and what those voices were telling her to do and what she must were telling her to do and what she must were telling her to do and what she must do and how she had no choice but to do do and how she had no choice but to do do and how she had no choice but to do the things that those voices told her the things that those voices told her the things that those voices told her and commanded of her. That in itself I and commanded of her. That in itself I and commanded of her. That in itself I think made a shift in how people saw think made a shift in how people saw think made a shift in how people saw mental illness and really the question mental illness and really the question mental illness and really the question of insanity itself as defense. Uh when of insanity itself as defense. Uh when of insanity itself as defense. Uh when we look at the Clancy case I think you we look at the Clancy case I think you we look at the Clancy case I think you make that comparison and there is a make that comparison and there is a make that comparison and there is a link. However, you look at this case.

link. However, you look at this case. link. However, you look at this case. This case is much different than that. This case is much different than that. This case is much different than that. And it's different because we have seen And it's different because we have seen And it's different because we have seen multiple cases in really in the last multiple cases in really in the last multiple cases in really in the last couple of years where people will try to couple of years where people will try to couple of years where people will try to use the insanity defense and they fail use the insanity defense and they fail use the insanity defense and they fail almost all of the time. And one of the almost all of the time. And one of the almost all of the time. And one of the reasons is because they come after the reasons is because they come after the reasons is because they come after the fact and say, "Oh, well, I didn't know fact and say, "Oh, well, I didn't know fact and say, "Oh, well, I didn't know what I was doing." The problem is is what I was doing." The problem is is what I was doing." The problem is is what a jury wants to see almost what a jury wants to see almost what a jury wants to see almost certainly and they certainly wanted to certainly and they certainly wanted to certainly and they certainly wanted to see it in the Clansancy case and they see it in the Clansancy case and they see it in the Clansancy case and they absolutely were looking for it in the absolutely were looking for it in the absolutely were looking for it in the Yates case and that ilk of cases over Yates case and that ilk of cases over Yates case and that ilk of cases over the next 25 years is the ongoing the next 25 years is the ongoing the next 25 years is the ongoing insanity and that this crime was dropped insanity and that this crime was dropped insanity and that this crime was dropped in the middle of the insanity proof if in the middle of the insanity proof if in the middle of the insanity proof if you will. And so they're bookended by you will. And so they're bookended by you will. And so they're bookended by acts of insanity and then the crime is acts of insanity and then the crime is acts of insanity and then the crime is in the middle of it. this doesn't in the middle of it. this doesn't in the middle of it. this doesn't particularly have that and that's a particularly have that and that's a particularly have that and that's a strong weakness and we've seen juries strong weakness and we've seen juries strong weakness and we've seen juries again and again and again again and again and again again and again and again reject those defenses. reject those defenses. reject those defenses. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. They are traditionally brought Yeah. They are traditionally brought Yeah. They are traditionally brought very rare and traditionally not all that very rare and traditionally not all that very rare and traditionally not all that successful even when they are broad. Um successful even when they are broad. Um successful even when they are broad. Um we're going to continue to follow that we're going to continue to follow that we're going to continue to follow that one as well. A really shocking case out one as well. A really shocking case out one as well. A really shocking case out of Pennsylvania. Jack, thank you so much of Pennsylvania. Jack, thank you so much of Pennsylvania. Jack, thank you so much for coming on this week. It's always a for coming on this week. It's always a for coming on this week. It's always a pleasure to talk to you. I always love pleasure to talk to you. I always love pleasure to talk to you. I always love hearing you um your mind work. Where can hearing you um your mind work. Where can hearing you um your mind work. Where can people find out more about you?

people find out more about you? people find out more about you? >> Well, we office our offices are in the >> Well, we office our offices are in the >> Well, we office our offices are in the Twin Cities in Minnesota, but you can Twin Cities in Minnesota, but you can Twin Cities in Minnesota, but you can see me on a lot of the networks. We do a see me on a lot of the networks. We do a see me on a lot of the networks. We do a lot of analysis, too. So, that sort of lot of analysis, too. So, that sort of lot of analysis, too. So, that sort of fits into what we do. But, I mean, I'm a fits into what we do. But, I mean, I'm a fits into what we do. But, I mean, I'm a trial lawyer, you know what I mean? So, trial lawyer, you know what I mean? So, trial lawyer, you know what I mean? So, I I mean, my job is to try cases, and I I mean, my job is to try cases, and I I mean, my job is to try cases, and when I can squeeze it in, I'm thrilled when I can squeeze it in, I'm thrilled when I can squeeze it in, I'm thrilled to come on with you because I'm to come on with you because I'm to come on with you because I'm struggling through these. And believe it struggling through these. And believe it struggling through these. And believe it or not, for me, when you and I have or not, for me, when you and I have or not, for me, when you and I have these conversations, I'm using this these conversations, I'm using this these conversations, I'm using this these as pivot points, and I'm using these as pivot points, and I'm using these as pivot points, and I'm using throw out ideas and listen to ideas that throw out ideas and listen to ideas that throw out ideas and listen to ideas that I can now then turn around when I'm I can now then turn around when I'm I can now then turn around when I'm standing in front of a jury of 12. standing in front of a jury of 12. standing in front of a jury of 12. >> Oh, well, I appreciate that. That's a >> Oh, well, I appreciate that. That's a >> Oh, well, I appreciate that. That's a high honor. I appreciate it. Uh I I'm high honor. I appreciate it. Uh I I'm high honor. I appreciate it. Uh I I'm like your guinea pig. I'm your mock like your guinea pig. I'm your mock like your guinea pig. I'm your mock jury. I like that. jury. I like that. jury. I like that. >> You're my mock You're my guinea pig. >> You're my mock You're my guinea pig. >> You're my mock You're my guinea pig. Yeah, sounds better than guinea pig, Yeah, sounds better than guinea pig, Yeah, sounds better than guinea pig, doesn't it? [laughter] doesn't it? [laughter] doesn't it? [laughter] >> I'm your host Josh Ritter. You can find >> I'm your host Josh Ritter. You can find >> I'm your host Josh Ritter. You can find me on Instagram and Twitter at Joshua me on Instagram and Twitter at Joshua me on Instagram and Twitter at Joshua Ritter ESQ. And if you want to hear my Ritter ESQ. And if you want to hear my Ritter ESQ. And if you want to hear my thoughts and coverage on even more true thoughts and coverage on even more true thoughts and coverage on even more true crime cases, please check out my YouTube crime cases, please check out my YouTube crime cases, please check out my YouTube channel, Courtroom Confidential. And you channel, Courtroom Confidential. And you channel, Courtroom Confidential. And you can of course find all of our sidebar can of course find all of our sidebar can of course find all of our sidebar episodes wherever you get your podcast.

episodes wherever you get your podcast. episodes wherever you get your podcast. And we would love to hear from you. If And we would love to hear from you. If And we would love to hear from you. If you've got questions or you've got you've got questions or you've got you've got questions or you've got comments, please let us address those comments, please let us address those comments, please let us address those with uh when you tweet us the question with uh when you tweet us the question with uh when you tweet us the question with the hashtag TCN sidebar. [music] with the hashtag TCN sidebar. [music] with the hashtag TCN sidebar. [music] And thank you for joining us at the true And thank you for joining us at the true And thank you for joining us at the true crime news sidebar.